New efforts!

[Arcana]

Not really, given how much it struggles to do minecrafty things even on hardware an order of magnitude more powerful than should be needed to do minecrafty things.

You could make the case that the City of Heroes engine has similar flaws in certain places.  I'll grant that the core of the engine was pretty efficient most of the time, but there were things that a state of the art design would do better.  Like large scale interactions.  Maybe in 2001 when the engine was written getting fifty people in a zone was an accomplishment, but by modern standards or even the standards of 2008 struggling to keep a hundred people in a zone (i.e. Hamidon) is not typical.  CoH's external database design, if you can call it that, is also rather ... I don't know what to call it, except I would never have done that, not even in 1999 when the game was first being drafted.  It's not failsafe, it's very inefficient, and it wouldn't be hard in absolute terms to do much better.

I think the City engine was better than players thought it was, given that all they ever heard about it was its limitations.  But I don't think it will win any engine design or implementation rewards.  It does the job of running the game.  Having not delved into Minecraft's source code, I can't judge the source based on how well written it is.  But it plays Minecraft.  Not as well as it should, perhaps, but reasonably; on that rough level I'd say City's engine also ran the game, not as well as it should, but reasonably.

[worldweary]

Because the people claiming all other games are awful would have written off CoH in the same way they write off all other games for not arriving in perfect form as a gift from heaven.  And if enough people had done so, their little piece of perfect would never have existed.

Of course the claim that all other games are bad is absurd on so many fronts that complete critical analysis of it would be an effort like unto counting grains of sand on a beach.

I like other games.RPGs like Chrono Trigger,Lunar,Suikoden,Final Fantasy Tactics and Vandal Hearts.For me it this simple.If I could play any game right now what would it be.CoH is always on the top.

[avelworldcreator]

It's not nostalgia.CoH was fun warts and all.

Oh I grant some "warts" were quite fun and amusing. It was a fun game. If we brought it back under a game server again it will still be. It will be stuck at the last issue though sadly. I'd still play it.  8) But I also played other games besides it and would continue to do so. I know our game may have some "improvements" that I won't care for but we are stuck with. Issues of personal taste mostly.

[MWRuger]

In my view it's pretty simple. I like CoH and I still want to play CoH. I loved it and would likely still be playing today. It was the game as a whole, not any particular aspect of it. It was, to me, greater than the sum of its components.

Will I love CoT as much? Maybe. When it's open for play I'll try it. Until then it's a moot point.

I have played and will still play lots of games. Some are good and some are bad. Ultimately, none of them were CoH and that's what I would prefer to play. Until then, there is plenty to do. Books to read, Movies and TV to see, Games to play and so on.

But for entertainment, CoH is still my most wanted game to play before I snuff it. If CoT would like to replace it, then do so and we'll see what happens.

[avelworldcreator]

Fortunately, software is not a car. Software can be evolved organically and even have parts of it redesigned in place if necessary.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I would point to things like Windows NT, Photoshop, and the Unreal engine. All of those are older than COH, but have been continuously improved and upgraded to meet current needs.

The COH engine itself underwent many changes and improvements from launch day, often in growth spurts. It's clear that Paragon had both the knowledge and desire to do so, though how much of both they had at any given time tended to vary based on how management allocated resources.

The vast majority of features that people wanted and blamed on engine limitations weren't so much a limitation due to being difficult to add to the engine, but rather because of all of the accumulated content built on top of it. Fixing or improving something in the engine is fairly easy until you have to deal with all of the content that makes assumptions that are no longer true. However, doing so is usually still less work than throwing it out entirely and starting over.

But at some point the changes accumulate to a stage where you have an entirely new piece of software - CoH engine 2.0 rather than 1.7.3. Happens all the time. We have Windows 10 now replacing Windows 8.1 for example.

Paragon had reached the point that the accumulations and problems required starting with a new engine. I'm sure they would use parts from the old one where possible but it would be a fundamentally new engine. Sometimes you just have to start fresh using the knowledge you acquired from your previous experiences.

I'm not really sure what an april fools day post listing joke features has to do with anything.

Seriously? Whoops. I just went off the title and didn't look at the story content closely or the date. Bad Google search! Mea culpa! But I do know that Minecraft was undergoing some update with the release of Windows 10. And right now I'm looking at the "Minecraft: Windows 10 Edition - Beta" in the Windows Store. I had seen that before and that's what prompted me to do the search in the first place. I was just sloppy in trying to post quickly.

[darkgob]

Once you can use generic scripting rather than triggers to dictate how content runs, the sky is the limit.  Provided you don't overload the hamsters running the servers with your scripts, of course.

Hopefully they would have upgraded the servers with SupaHamsters.

[hurple]

Because the people claiming all other games are awful would have written off CoH in the same way they write off all other games for not arriving in perfect form as a gift from heaven.  And if enough people had done so, their little piece of perfect would never have existed.

Of course the claim that all other games are bad is absurd on so many fronts that complete critical analysis of it would be an effort like unto counting grains of sand on a beach.

I love how you're getting so bent out of shape arguing with somebody that his *opinion* is wrong...

[Shibboleth]

I like other games.RPGs like Chrono Trigger,Lunar,Suikoden,Final Fantasy Tactics and Vandal Hearts.For me it this simple.If I could play any game right now what would it be.CoH is always on the top.

Which is perfectly fine as a statement. Saying CoH was a better game (subjectively) is a very different thing than saying all other games (objectively) are bad.

[Shibboleth]

I love how you're getting so bent out of shape arguing with somebody that his *opinion* is wrong...

I am routinely amazed at what people think they can read from a post. Case in point....

[darkgob]

I love how you're getting so bent out of shape arguing with somebody that his *opinion* is wrong...

This is the internet, people with wrong opinions have to know how bad they are.  It is internet law.

[Shibboleth]

This is the internet, people with wrong opinions have to know how bad they are.  It is internet law.

You're entitled to your opinions and nobody has said otherwise (certainly I haven't).

What you are not entitled to are your own facts.

[worldweary]

Which is perfectly fine as a statement. Saying CoH was a better game (subjectively) is a very different thing than saying all other games (objectively) are bad.

I never said all other games are bad.Maybe some other post?

[Codewalker]

But I do know that Minecraft was undergoing some update with the release of Windows 10. And right now I'm looking at the "Minecraft: Windows 10 Edition - Beta" in the Windows Store. I had seen that before and that's what prompted me to do the search in the first place. I was just sloppy in trying to post quickly.

Sort of. There's two versions of Minecraft, similar only in that they involve a world made out of blocks.

Classic Minecraft - Java and OpenGL (using JavaGL). PC only. Metric tons of community created mods for every aspect of the game, from expansions to new gameplay to visual overhauls. This is the version that sold millions of copies, made Notch wealthy beyond belief, and captured the imagination of half the Internet.

Mobile Minecraft - Presumably C++, compiled to native code. Much newer codebase and written from scratch for the console ports. OpenGL renderer for iOS and Android, Direct3D renderer for Windows Mobile and XBox. Supports no mods whatsoever -- the base game is all there is. Last I checked this version also had size limits to the generated world rather than being nearly infinite. This is the version you give to your 8-year old kids on a tablet to keep them busy for a while.

The heavily marketed "Minecraft for Windows 10" is a port of the Mobile version to a universal windows app. It's newer, shinier, and arguably technically superior, except that it's entirely missing the extensibility that made Minecraft so popular in the first place. Since it's packaged as a signed binary, installable only through their store, there's no obvious way for it to support mods.

The console version (based on the mobile) has sold a large number of copies, but it's questionable if that would have happened had the PC version not been so wildly popular first.

[darkgob]

You're entitled to your opinions and nobody has said otherwise (certainly I haven't).

What you are not entitled to are your own facts.

In my opinion you're wrong. ;)

[Shibboleth]

I never said all other games are bad.Maybe some other post?

No, you questioned how the game at release became an issue.

Where did you read me suggesting you had said all other games were bad?

[avelworldcreator]

Sort of. There's two versions of Minecraft, similar only in that they involve a world made out of blocks.

Classic Minecraft - Java and OpenGL (using JavaGL). PC only. Metric tons of community created mods for every aspect of the game, from expansions to new gameplay to visual overhauls. This is the version that sold millions of copies, made Notch wealthy beyond belief, and captured the imagination of half the Internet.

Mobile Minecraft - Presumably C++, compiled to native code. Much newer codebase and written from scratch for the console ports. OpenGL renderer for iOS and Android, Direct3D renderer for Windows Mobile and XBox. Supports no mods whatsoever -- the base game is all there is. Last I checked this version also had size limits to the generated world rather than being nearly infinite. This is the version you give to your 8-year old kids on a tablet to keep them busy for a while.

The heavily marketed "Minecraft for Windows 10" is a port of the Mobile version to a universal windows app. It's newer, shinier, and arguably technically superior, except that it's entirely missing the extensibility that made Minecraft so popular in the first place. Since it's packaged as a signed binary, installable only through their store, there's no obvious way for it to support mods.

The console version (based on the mobile) has sold a large number of copies, but it's questionable if that would have happened had the PC version not been so wildly popular first.

Which prettty much is what the vision was with "Plan-Z" way back when. I'm STILL pushing for the ability to modify personal versions as much as possible. It's a tougher thing to do with having to use the Unreal Engine but I'm still researching ways to make it happen.

[Shibboleth]

In my opinion you're wrong. ;)

Fine by me. Likewise you won't find me trying to argue Sarah Palin out of her opinions.  ;D

Edit: Cursed, newfangled ways to do :p

[worldweary]

No, you questioned how the game at release became an issue.

Where did you read me suggesting you had said all other games were bad?

Sorry.I understand now.

[Shibboleth]

Sorry.I understand now.

No apology needed. :)

[MM3squints]

I'm not sure this can be called "pay to win" when you're not even guaranteed to get the thing you paid for (it's worse than PWE's lockboxes, where you at least get something), which is an astoundingly poor business practice.  And again, this is not remotely representative of all modern games.  "Pay to win" becomes a meaningless phrase in games lacking PvP, which is actually a lot of games.  Stripping out content that was originally developed for the core game and turning it into paid DLC is also scummy and does sometimes happen, but unless you can demonstrably prove that this happens a majority of the time, this isn't an appropriate barometer for the state of modern games.

All I'm seeing is a lot of generalization based on edge cases in order to justify close-mindedness.  Don't like games with paid DLC?  Don't buy them!  There are a lot of games without it.  Although honestly, I have a hard time taking you seriously if you say that you hate paid DLC and then claim that CoH is the only game for you, because I will remind you that CoH was doing paid DLC long before it became popular.

Me personally I don't mind DLC, I buy them. I'm just trying to give out examples because you ask for them.  What I think the original argument was along the lines of this image

https://i.imgur.com/Dzmg7Xk.jpg

This is no better exhibited with EA business practice with launch day DLCs, where people will argue you have the complete game already, but you want me to pay extra on launch day for the content or us the consumers buying season passes for games (I am guilty of this.) Your argument of extending the life of the game over it's normal shelf life with DLC is valid, and not only dose it extend the life of the game, but introduces new mechanics in the core game to justify the DLC. Noyjitat where was using an extreme case against dlc is fueled by publishers like EA. Not to say everyone in the industry has this practice. Why do EA and other publishers do this? Because there is enough of the consumers that actually partake in these practices to justify the profit over bad PR. In recent times though EA have been moving away from these practice after winning  "The worst Company in America" 2 years in a row from the Consumerist beating out Bank of America twice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumerist

You know your a terrible company when you only focus on publishing games and you beat out one of the banks that lead to the 2008 financial crisis.

Edit: Don't know why it didn't save, but I also wrote, your example is valid but on the extreme side that all bad examples of the DLCs are not the norm just because some publishers being bad apples and those practices do exist, there is no justification of labeling it as current industry practice. While Noyjitat was using an extreme case (although I haven't seen one where when you die they will lock the game you bought until you pay for a code or something of that nature, but in general I believe he was talking along the line of the picture above where the game content is already made, but you need to pay extra on launch day to access them) in which they are because those publishers are out are and pushing those practices, therefore it is an industry standard. Reminds me of Milton Freidman's quote (I'm paraphrasing) where he said if you are going to argue for an argument and base your concussions on the facts of the extreme, you need to take it to the opposite extreme scenario in order to see if the validity of the argument is justified. If you want to see that look it up, it is Milton Friedman debating whether it was the electric company's fault for shutting off a man's electricity and that man died by freezing to death.