Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7293001 times)

Kaos Arcanna

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,067
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21380 on: December 28, 2015, 03:49:05 AM »
It always seemed to me that the best tanks were run by people who had started out with fenders or trollers.  They got used to watching their teammates' bars, and knew when to grab aggro back from those who had inadvertently attracted it.

I agree with that. When I was leveling an Empathy/Psi Defender, my duoing partner at the time taught me that you could heal and buff someone through their health bar. It turns out that it was also possible to target-taunt through it as well which made it a lot easier as a tank to keep someone alive. :D

brothermutant

  • New Efforts # 14,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 309
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21381 on: December 28, 2015, 04:15:02 AM »
I agree with that. When I was leveling an Empathy/Psi Defender, my duoing partner at the time taught me that you could heal and buff someone through their health bar. It turns out that it was also possible to target-taunt through it as well which made it a lot easier as a tank to keep someone alive. :D
Can't believem it never dawned on me to do that as a tank. Wild. I want my game back so I can try this.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 01:10:33 PM by brothermutant »

Teikiatsu

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 287
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21382 on: December 28, 2015, 05:43:47 AM »
Can't believem it never dawned on me tom do that as a tank. Wild. I want my game back so I can try this.

Heck yeah, that was bread and butter for my Fire/Ice tank.

Ice Slicks on a corner, Burn/Fiery Embrace, and other peeps to pull the bad guys in for Taunts.  Good times.
Virtue Server - Main: Midnight Lightning Dark/Elec/Psi Defender

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfKUPgy_xH8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EitO6Wq_9A

Tyger42

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 108
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21383 on: December 28, 2015, 01:18:48 PM »
That was much later in the game.  I started when it was beta and healers (emps) were a sought after toon.  Back in issue 2 - 5, it was I'd login, pick my healer, and have at least 5 tells and an invite before I even could see the zone.

And yes a Controller was called a troller.

It wasn't so much that emp healers were more needed then, but that there were more players who weren't used to the idea of healers not being mandatory.

umber

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 104
    • My CoH Characters
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21384 on: December 28, 2015, 02:24:51 PM »
Early on in the game I'd now and then come across a "we need a healer" PUG, would ask them to bear with me a single mission while I switched to my FF bubbler.  At the end of the mission I'd bring up their full health bars, that not a single heal was fired, how did they feel about needing healing now?  Pretty confident I'd changed the minds of at least a few players back then.

Heck, I wasn't much of a fan of playing FF but it had a very high-visibility impact on, well, not getting impacted.

pinballdave

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 395
  • I am the player formerly known as Psylenz
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21385 on: December 28, 2015, 03:36:50 PM »
Early on in the game I'd now and then come across a "we need a healer" PUG, would ask them to bear with me a single mission while I switched to my FF bubbler.  At the end of the mission I'd bring up their full health bars, that not a single heal was fired, how did they feel about needing healing now?  Pretty confident I'd changed the minds of at least a few players back then.

Heck, I wasn't much of a fan of playing FF but it had a very high-visibility impact on, well, not getting impacted.

We ran an early Synapse Taskforce with a radiation defender and my forcefielder. Some of the team were insisting we get a real empath healer. We had only one death where a blaster got over-confident and ran off to clear some of the map solo and his bubble wore off.

worldweary

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 217
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21386 on: December 28, 2015, 04:11:59 PM »
Emps were not just heals.Clear Mind,Fortitude and RA all really made a difference before lvl 20.Emps maybe were needed less than other AT's in COH but I was always glad to have one.My wife's Emp allowed us to invite lower lvl people with us on high lvl content and keep them alive while still having fun.

brothermutant

  • New Efforts # 14,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 309
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21387 on: December 28, 2015, 04:20:47 PM »
We ran an early Synapse Taskforce with a radiation defender and my forcefielder. Some of the team were insisting we get a real empath healer. We had only one death where a blaster got over-confident and ran off to clear some of the map solo and his bubble wore off.
Hehe, dumazz. Yeah, problem with being a def bubbler was, many did not see the impact of not getting hit until they started walking away from my Dispersion Bubble and their individual bubbs wore off. Then it was all "we need a real healer". People never seemed to get what defense based protection was all about. Until the devs gave them the chance to make their own defense go up with IO set bonuses. After that, you never saw so many people go after and know so much about the defense soft cap.

Hell, I knew so little about my teammates bubbles that, once, I exemp'ed down to a level where all I grabbed was my personal aura bubble and the second teammate bubble (range def one) and wouldn't cast it on my PUG teammates as they were mostly hitting everything with melee. Until one of my teammates complained that I wasn't bubbling them; I said it wasn't slotted and that everyone was in melee range. She/he pointed out that it still protected from attacks and more importantly, it protected from End Drain (we had sappers in the missions). I had NO idea it even did that until they pointed it out. This was one of my first toons and my first 50 (Grav/FF) and leveled him the hard way (at least, up to 40s anyways) and I still didn't know everything about my own toon.

Sinistar

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,045
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21388 on: December 28, 2015, 04:28:13 PM »
We ran an early Synapse Taskforce with a radiation defender and my forcefielder. Some of the team were insisting we get a real empath healer. We had only one death where a blaster got over-confident and ran off to clear some of the map solo and his bubble wore off.

Reminds me of an MoITF where we get to the last stage with no troubles.  I was using a FF Defender at the time and was bubbling everyone all the time.

Then when we get to Romulus and clear the area around him,  a blaster got stupid and charged into battle before I bubbled them and got smeared by Romulus.  The Team Leader then yelled at me for not bubbling him. I then yelled back that I'd been bubbling everyoen the entire run and that I am NOT responsible for someone turning brainless and charging the AV without being buffed and to not blame their death on me.

Two days later the patch was released that made powers like FF and SB an AOE power.....

Irony. :)
In fearful COH-less days
In Raging COH-less nights
With Strong Hearts Full, we shall UNITE!
When all seems lost in the effort to bring CoH back to life,
Look to Cyberspace, where HOPE burns bright!

LadyVamp

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 539
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21389 on: December 28, 2015, 04:57:50 PM »
Emps were not just heals.Clear Mind,Fortitude and RA all really made a difference before lvl 20.Emps maybe were needed less than other AT's in COH but I was always glad to have one.My wife's Emp allowed us to invite lower lvl people with us on high lvl content and keep them alive while still having fun.

RA was the big one everyone wanted before stamina became inherent.  Actually, if the emp put a little thought into how the buffs were divied up, things moved noticeably faster.  Fort and Adrenalin Boost on a scrapper or blaster tended to turn them into killing machines before IOs were created.  Regen Aura on even wimpy tanks turned them almost into unkillable walls of defense for the rest of the team.

In the early days of CoH, it really came down to do I want to do fighting or just hang back and buff.  Even in the later days, many teams didn't seem to care if I buffed/healed only or fought along side them.
No Surrender!

Auroxis

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 174
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21390 on: December 28, 2015, 06:11:08 PM »
Empathy is actually a decently potent offensive powerset.

Regeneration Aura lets you play more aggressively instead of using cast time on heals.

Recovery Aura resolves endurance issues for your team and lets certain teammates keep attacking instead of using their endurance recovery powers.

Adrenalin Boost, when cast on the AoE centric teammate increases your team's clear speed substantially as your team's biggest hitters are up more often due to the recharge buff.

Fortitude! Not only did its defense buff let you spend cast time on blasts instead of heals, it also increased the team's damage. You could reliably have it on 6 people with a high recharge build, which is like having two extra Assault leadership buffs for your team.

Azrael

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 666
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21391 on: December 28, 2015, 06:50:25 PM »
Sound points.

Extensively Teamed with an illusion empathy controller...on my way up to my 1st level 50 (en/en blaster.).  Unforgettable.  Ah.  The early years.  Great fun.

Excellent healer.  Very potent buffs.  Excellent offense.

Azrael.

LaughingAlex

  • Giggling like an
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,019
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21392 on: December 28, 2015, 07:27:23 PM »
It wasn't so much that emp healers were more needed then, but that there were more players who weren't used to the idea of healers not being mandatory.

Exactly this.  Almost every mmorpg falls into the trap of both encouraging and also restricting people to the same holy trinity team setup, that complacent gamer syndrome has kicked into full gear.  But I think it's also the players that are the problem but more they kind of became the problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w

In Balancing for Skill, Extra Credits talks about how "foo strategies" often become go to tactics for lower end players, but they stress a main problem in that advanced tactics have to come somewhat earlier.  Many games didn't really or never really do this, and result in players never learning those advanced tactics by the time it's critical to be using them.  They get comfortable but complacent, which leads to them trying the same once successful but now losing tactic over and over expecting it to work better and that the game is just throwing a badly balanced spot at them.  When of course, in reality, the developers wanted them to move on from that by then.


Healing in Guild Wars, and City of heroes to, was a newbie tactic to keep a team alive.  It worked because enemy damage was low but the other defense tactics don't work quite as effective early.  But in guild wars, as you got out of Destroyed Ascalon, you were expected to use more skills and have a better variety of classes in your teams.  In city of heroes, as you got to level 15ish enemies began using buffs/debuffs more frequently.  IMO, both games kind of failed in this, somewhat, for a lot of players.  They went into higher levels in city of heroes expecting those aura rockers to keep them alive, but we'd see that either their own character was already good, they got lucky with people using other buffs to carry them, or they got tired of the game or just never picked up it's depth.  Or they'd be crushed by non-council, and avoid everything but council under a misconception they were all overpowered and the game was artificially difficult but didn't want to abandon their character.

It wasn't until someone showed them just how effective the non-healer tactics were that people move on.  I was lucky to get in a team with a couple of storm and force field users and found that I was invincible and fighting +4's.  I was left thinking "Holy shit this is a power house, and theres no healing here!".  And I found it wasn't to hard to do when I experimented with a cold domination corruptor.  I also found a few others who wouldn't move on from the "foo strategy" and ended up leaving because they never picked up on the games depth.  They moved on to CO, then later quit CO when CO turned into a stagnant slog.

I also think though that CoH had an issue with giving people the sense of being more powerful with the buffs early on.  Specifically force fields were very discrete, but we all know just how subtle sonic buffs were and how so many people didn't even know they were being buffed.  Or even saw the difference in some cases(controllers/corruptors had this pretty bad in the early levels with sonic resonance).

Guild wars 1, likewise, would very severely punish players in the northern shiverpeaks.  They wouldn't pick up that monk healing, while decent by itself, was ineffective in the long run.  They'd miss the idea behind prot spells.  They'd miss the value of mesmer and ranger disruption quite early enough.  So when they go to the shiverpeaks, they think "Well I got 6 slots instead of 4...ok one more damage and healer!".  Or if they were a wammo continue thinking they were indestructable and slowly get lucky.  Even though they were now facing mesmers who'd disrupt the team regularly.  It had pvp and pvp tactics evolved quickly, but even then you'd see people quit over IWAY being nerfed very similarly to people in the video quitting over the zerg rush being nerfed.  Players didn't have the skill/knowledge to move on to other tactics or learn anything.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21393 on: December 28, 2015, 07:34:23 PM »
Healer, what's a healer?

Oh yeah, those things that you need in those other games where there is no in-combat health regeneration.

Near the end I think my Ill/Rad could pump out over 50 h/s of health recovery in an AoE with just RA, which in any other MMO would qualify as a cheat-code.

Abraxus

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 352
  • Brax on Discord. Play on Homecoming/Torchbearer
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21394 on: December 28, 2015, 07:39:12 PM »
What I always like about healers (being one, or having one on the team) was that, like most of the rest of CoH game play, you had choices and none of them were necessarily bad.  If being a Healing Controller, or Defender was what you enjoyed, there was almost always something going on that you could be a part of.  By the same token, while having a healer was not absolutely necessary on every team, including one was not a totally superfluous waste of a player slot either.  Sometimes they could be the difference between being a good team, to a steam-rolling powerhouse of a great team, and everyone could still have fun. 

I am sure there are those that would disagree, but this is what my experience in the game told me.
What was no more, is now reborn!

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21395 on: December 28, 2015, 07:50:13 PM »
And the ultimate test of aggro holding for a tank was a rad/fire blaster. Irradiate with its huge debuff and hot feet could pull aggro off all but the best tanks.

Actually, there were always debates about just how aggro worked until Castle looked it up.  It turns out that you can't "yank" aggro from a tank in the manner most people described as actually witnessing.  Basically, if the target has a taunt effect on it from the tank, as long as the tank hits it with anything the tank is going to own that target.  If the target does not have a taunt effect on it from the tank, the tank is unlikely to even acquire aggro if anything else is attacking it also.  Basically, taunt applies a 1000x multiplier on aggro *times* the taunt duration.  That means there's virtually no damage or debuff in the world that can take aggro from a tank if the tank has a taunt effect on it.

The real problem is that no matter how much a player might think they have all the targets consistently covered, its hard to actually maintain that in actual play across a lot of targets.  When a tank lost aggro to a blaster, it was always due to the blaster hitting a target that the tank no longer had taunted in some fashion, or that the tanker had taunted but otherwise didn't hit with any attacks.  The only things that can steal aggro from a tanker that is actively trying to hold aggro is something else with an even stronger (longer) taunt**.  Invuln scrapper can steal aggro from Willpower tanker, for example.

The blasters most likely to steal aggro from tankers were not the ones with the most damage or debuff, but the ones with the largest area of effect powers with the largest target caps.  They were most likely to catch a target that otherwise escaped the tanker's taunt effects or damage effects.  You needed both to maintain aggro.


** Mathematically, there were corner cases.  Say, a tanker taunting a target from extreme range and hitting with tiny dot attacks could hypothetically be overridden by a blaster standing in melee range landing thousands of points of damage.  But anything short of an AV would likely be dead before that happened.

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21396 on: December 28, 2015, 07:53:27 PM »
It always seemed to me that the best tanks were run by people who had started out with fenders or trollers.  They got used to watching their teammates' bars, and knew when to grab aggro back from those who had inadvertently attracted it.

There's probably a lot of truth to this.  I know I played my first tank only after significantly leveling my first controller, and in many ways playing the tank well was like playing the controller with one hand tied behind my back.  Not so much that the tank was harder to play, but had less overall options for dealing with threats than the controller.  More one-dimensional in the aggro control role.  Not having to learn how to flow with the team while learning how to tank well because that was already old hat was definitely helpful.

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21397 on: December 28, 2015, 07:59:06 PM »
It wasn't so much that emp healers were more needed then, but that there were more players who weren't used to the idea of healers not being mandatory.

I think in part its a question of how you play, and specifically what you lean on.  If you use your health bar as the signal for when to slow down, then having heals is a good idea: you're always throwing yourself into situations where your health bar goes down.  Sometimes, it will do so more than you want it to.  If you're used to pacing yourself within your limits and playing with full health, natural regeneration (as Codewalker noted) will tend to be good enough to keep you going and actual heals will tend to be redundant most of the time.

I myself tended to like some balance.  I'm someone that believes in Plan B.  And Plan C.  And Plan D.  I want defenses, and I want resistances, and I want the heals when those fail.  I like having so many tricks in my bag that I'm never pulling out the last trick from the bottom.  To me, heals weren't necessary but nothing really was.  I think its more that the bias against heals was formed to counter the natural tendency to believe they were necessary, but to me heals were just another mitigation effect like any other, as good as any other, and equally useful as every other.

Auroxis

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 174
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21398 on: December 28, 2015, 08:32:49 PM »
I myself tended to like some balance.  I'm someone that believes in Plan B.  And Plan C.  And Plan D.  I want defenses, and I want resistances, and I want the heals when those fail.  I like having so many tricks in my bag that I'm never pulling out the last trick from the bottom.

I tried to have as many failsafes as possible.
1. Defense from Fortitude
2. Regen from RA/AB
3. Heals
4. Power boosted Vengeance+Ressurect/Day Job power rez/PVP temp power rez(yes I had three rez powers in my power bar)

If that didn't work, I had lore pets and temp power pets ready for the rematch.

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21399 on: December 28, 2015, 08:49:50 PM »
I tried to have as many failsafes as possible.
1. Defense from Fortitude
2. Regen from RA/AB
3. Heals
4. Power boosted Vengeance+Ressurect/Day Job power rez/PVP temp power rez(yes I had three rez powers in my power bar)

If that didn't work, I had lore pets and temp power pets ready for the rematch.

Even though I sometimes catch myself using the word that way also, technically speaking those are contingencies, not failsafes.  A contingency is an option reserved for use when a potential situation happens that you can't plan for precisely.  A failsafe is something that is designed specifically so that if it fails it does so in a way designed to generate the least destructive outcome.  A heal you rarely use but keep around just in case is a contingency.  I'm not sure if there existed any power or tactic in City of Heroes that could be accurately described as a failsafe.

I guess you could say that powers like Mass Confusion were failsafe.  Either they confused the target or they did nothing to the target, meaning they didn't draw aggro.  So you could theoretically stack most confuses onto a target until they worked, because they were failsafe.  Conversely, Siren's Song was not failsafe.  If it landed but failed to sleep the target, the target was aggroed onto you immediately.