Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7294482 times)

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #20680 on: December 03, 2015, 12:00:12 AM »
I think CoH just didn't meet the minimum Korean MMO grinding requirement.
I mean that problem would have been easily rectified.
Just sell everything above the DO enhancement level in an ingame cash shop.
That and make you run the shard tfs for a single SO when you hit max level.

Also, ICON was way too underpriced. Each costume slot should cost $20 with a single costume change costing $5.

That's what kills me about TERA, you know. The hair/face/body changes cost like close to $10.
It's a simple sql update statement.
The same statement you use to update your xp bar, you know.
Just well.. Yeah. Fleece the customer more.

To be fair, almost no change in any MMO is just "a simple sql update statement" - that's comparable to the people who used to say in City of Heroes that making new critters should be as simple as subclassing existing ones.  No City entity (and for that matter no MMO entity for any major MMO I'm aware of) is a C++ class.  Similarly, I don't think anyone uses a normal SQL database for actual running MMO state.  Too slow.

Still, the larger principle is that many MMO gameplay options that are very simple to effect for the player are built on a lot of other work that has to get paid for on an amortized basis.  MMOs (in the context of microtransaction type stuff) typically can't charge (directly) for the work they put into actually creating gameplay options, only on the act of acquiring them.

Consider body geometry changes.  It would be so much simpler, and cheaper, to not have to support all those options or to support far fewer.  Every option you decide to support requires significantly more work from the geometry people, the user interface people, there's more design and testing work, and there's more data to store.  All that comes at a cost.  If the decision at design time is to say we're willing to spend all those (tens of, hundreds of) thousands of dollars to add those features, but we need to make that money back so we're going to charge for the ability to use them, then what to charge players is less about what it will cost to change your nose length parameter in your character data, and more what was invested into the game engine to make that possible in the first place.

Furthermore, in F2P games the revenue from things that cost money has to subsidize all the other things that don't cost money.  When you buy that +4 hammer of defenstration, realize that the +4 hammer of defenstration is also paying for the +0 hammer of minor bruising that everyone gets "for free."

That doesn't justify any and all microtransaction pricing, but it does justify disconnecting what it costs to directly mechanically perform a player requested option and what they are charged for it.  What it costs to tweak a number at the time of the request has no bearing on what it actually cost overall to make that happen, and what the reasonable price for that should be.

ivanhedgehog

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #20681 on: December 03, 2015, 12:21:27 AM »
In general, I haven't seen too much bashing of people saying they simply don't think its likely the game will return; at least, I see the bashing being relatively symmetric on that score.  However, its not pessimism when people start simply making stuff up to attempt to justify their pessimism, like making presumptive comments about what they believe they can conclude from the inherent lack of direct knowledge of the process.  People who *think* the game isn't coming back is making a guess like any other.  People who *know* the game isn't coming back because of their analysis of the (lack of) information is just plain wrong.

On the other hand, if you're specifically responding to what Joshex espoused about pessimism, what are you, nuts?

I know coh isnt back because if it was, I would be leveling my tank. unfortunately, this makes me pessimistic.  and hungry..I am gonna go get some dinner..

Vee

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #20682 on: December 03, 2015, 02:14:58 AM »
I'm intrigued. Does the +4 hammer of defenestration generate its own windows a la grav control's propel or does it only work when there's a window around? I'm not terribly clear which you could charge more for, though I'd imagine the former would cause fewer rage calls for customer service from people who didn't know what 'defenestration' meant before they bought it.

blacksly

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #20683 on: December 03, 2015, 03:43:25 AM »
On the other hand, if you're specifically responding to what Joshex espoused about <insert topic>, what are you, nuts?

Fixx0red.

blacksly

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #20684 on: December 03, 2015, 03:46:15 AM »
I'm intrigued. Does the +4 hammer of defenestration generate its own windows a la grav control's propel or does it only work when there's a window around? I'm not terribly clear which you could charge more for, though I'd imagine the former would cause fewer rage calls for customer service from people who didn't know what 'defenestration' meant before they bought it.

Neither. It's a +4 Hammer in most situations, and will Defenestrate if there is a Window of Opportunity within 10' of either the target or the wielder.

MegaWatt

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #20685 on: December 03, 2015, 07:03:01 AM »
can it be thrown to cause the defenestration effect ?
If we set it on fire it'll burn....but that'd leave evidence...I KNOW ! COMPLETE ATOMIZATION! WOOOO!

Golden Aurora

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #20686 on: December 03, 2015, 09:48:22 AM »
The Hammer of Justice crushes your wallet. Overpower!

blacksly

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #20687 on: December 03, 2015, 02:39:46 PM »
can it be thrown to cause the defenestration effect ?

If the window is right behind the target, yes.

hurple

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #20688 on: December 03, 2015, 03:00:15 PM »
To be fair, almost no change in any MMO is just "a simple sql update statement" - that's comparable to the people who used to say in City of Heroes that making new critters should be as simple as subclassing existing ones.  No City entity (and for that matter no MMO entity for any major MMO I'm aware of) is a C++ class.  Similarly, I don't think anyone uses a normal SQL database for actual running MMO state.  Too slow.

Still, the larger principle is that many MMO gameplay options that are very simple to effect for the player are built on a lot of other work that has to get paid for on an amortized basis.  MMOs (in the context of microtransaction type stuff) typically can't charge (directly) for the work they put into actually creating gameplay options, only on the act of acquiring them.

Consider body geometry changes.  It would be so much simpler, and cheaper, to not have to support all those options or to support far fewer.  Every option you decide to support requires significantly more work from the geometry people, the user interface people, there's more design and testing work, and there's more data to store.  All that comes at a cost.  If the decision at design time is to say we're willing to spend all those (tens of, hundreds of) thousands of dollars to add those features, but we need to make that money back so we're going to charge for the ability to use them, then what to charge players is less about what it will cost to change your nose length parameter in your character data, and more what was invested into the game engine to make that possible in the first place.

Furthermore, in F2P games the revenue from things that cost money has to subsidize all the other things that don't cost money.  When you buy that +4 hammer of defenstration, realize that the +4 hammer of defenstration is also paying for the +0 hammer of minor bruising that everyone gets "for free."

That doesn't justify any and all microtransaction pricing, but it does justify disconnecting what it costs to directly mechanically perform a player requested option and what they are charged for it.  What it costs to tweak a number at the time of the request has no bearing on what it actually cost overall to make that happen, and what the reasonable price for that should be.

They gave us WINGS!!!!


srmalloy

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #20689 on: December 03, 2015, 04:41:13 PM »
People in this thread are constantly saying things like 'The CoX IP is basically worthless now so why don't NCSoft just either hand it over or sell it for a nominal fee...'

Unfortunately, the CoX IP is worth a fortune.  With all the goodwill the game still has and all the players who played it and enjoyed it over the years, a sequel would make a LOT of money.  If I was NCSoft I wouldn't sell it for anything less than $100 million.

The problem with that premise is that, so long as NCsoft holds the IP, it's valueless to them; all of the goodwill and all of its playerbase belong to the game, not to NCsoft, and NCsoft has raised too much enmity from the way it has handled the IP that the goodwill and playerbase exist as an entity that increases the value of the game only after the IP is out of NCsoft's hands -- the player response to a restart of CoH by any other company would be much larger than the response to a restart of CoH by NCsoft. They can't value and charge for something that they don't hold.

Azrael

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #20690 on: December 03, 2015, 07:37:05 PM »
Hard to believe it's been gone for 3 years. :/

Still, I'm optimistic for the future with either the 'talks' but also the dogged resistance of the SCoRE team and the wonderful gift of Paragon Chat.  Every rivet and every nail gives renewed hope.  :)

Azrael.

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #20691 on: December 03, 2015, 08:47:06 PM »
The problem with that premise is that, so long as NCsoft holds the IP, it's valueless to them; all of the goodwill and all of its playerbase belong to the game, not to NCsoft, and NCsoft has raised too much enmity from the way it has handled the IP that the goodwill and playerbase exist as an entity that increases the value of the game only after the IP is out of NCsoft's hands -- the player response to a restart of CoH by any other company would be much larger than the response to a restart of CoH by NCsoft. They can't value and charge for something that they don't hold.

You're speaking from the point of view of someone who loved the game and blames NCSoft personally for taking it away.  Just about everyone on this forum would agree with you.  There's probably a lot of ex players who also agree.  But those folks do not comprise 'ALL' the players who ever played COH and would be interested in a sequel.  There are a lot of 'transient' gamers who just don't care one way or the other about the politics surrounding a game who will think 'yeah I remember COH 1, I played it in 2006/2007 and it was pretty cool.  They'll not know the whole saga of the shutdown, see that it is published by the same folks who did COH1 and think 'yep it's an official sequel so I'll give that a whirl.'  There are lots of people who don't read gaming websites so they won't know the whole story.  They'll just see COH2 on a shelf in a computer store and buy it.

This is all just my opinion but I'll give you a real world example.  I used to play the original Guild Wars and I liked it a lot.  I bought all of the expansions and probably spent $200 on it in total.  When Guild Wars 2 was announced I couldn't have given a stuff whether Guild Wars 1 was shut down or not and it wouldn't have influenced my decision to purchase GW2.

Now COH was completely different for me personally but I knew a lot of players who hated Cryptic for the whole ED debacle and left the game around the 'FREEM15' period when Cryptic basically put the game in maintenance mode.  By the time the game was shuttered all they knew about COH was that it was once great and that NCSoft bought the rights off Cryptic, ploughed loads of investment into it and was instrumental in bringing masses of great content into a game that Cryptic had tried to kill off with Champions Online.  Those players wouldn't play a Cryptic game ever again but a lot of them play GW2 these days...

I currently dabble with World of Warships.  I don't particularly like the game, I believe the developers are not particularly popular with the players either but I've still spent around $300 on it and it only launched in September.  This is because I don't go on their forums to see what all the players are griping about, I just casually enjoy the game.  If the game closes in February i couldn't care less and if the same publishers then announced 'World of Warships 2' I'd probably give it a whirl.  That doesn't make me mental, it just means I'm a casual player with money to spend who doesn't care about the politics of that particular game.  I'm not alone.

With COH I was emotionally invested in my characters, the game, the lore, the developers, the whole nine yards.  I was gutted when it closed down.  However, I know in my heart of hearts that if NCSoft made a press release announcing COH2 in development with Matt Miller back at the helm I'd be clambering to get into the beta.  I'm sure I'll be burned at the stake on these forums for saying that but a spiritual successor will never feel like COH without the same lore and style.  COH2 though...sorry everyone but I would buy it.

Dr. Bad Guy

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #20692 on: December 03, 2015, 08:47:46 PM »
Neither. It's a +4 Hammer in most situations, and will Defenestrate if there is a Window of Opportunity within 10' of either the target or the wielder.
   As an optimist, there is always a Window of Opportunistic near me.  Beware.

adarict

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #20693 on: December 03, 2015, 09:20:59 PM »
There are lots of people who don't read gaming websites so they won't know the whole story.  They'll just see COH2 on a shelf in a computer store and buy it.

There are stores that sell boxed PC games?  What kind of fantasy world do you live in???  :)

Vee

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #20694 on: December 03, 2015, 10:03:17 PM »
However, I know in my heart of hearts that if NCSoft made a press release announcing COH2 in development with Matt Miller back at the helm I'd be clambering to get into the beta. 

Can't speak to COH2 but if NCSoft brought CoX back I'd be there with bells on. Hell if it were released by NCSoft and developed by ISIS under lead programmer Jared Fogle I'd still be there with bells on.

Joshex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #20695 on: December 03, 2015, 10:48:58 PM »
Can't speak to COH2 but if NCSoft brought CoX back I'd be there with bells on. Hell if it were released by NCSoft and developed by ISIS under lead programmer Jared Fogle I'd still be there with bells on.

I remember someone said CoH2 was an april fools joke and nothing but. NCSoft just officially registered the title to egg on the joke.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

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Codewalker

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #20696 on: December 03, 2015, 11:07:16 PM »
I remember someone said CoH2 was an april fools joke and nothing but. NCSoft just officially registered the title to egg on the joke.

It was that guy. You know, the one who hangs out down on the corner by the qwik stop all the time, with the beard. He totally knows things.

That guy owes me money.

darkgob

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #20697 on: December 04, 2015, 01:34:52 AM »
I remember someone said CoH2 was an april fools joke and nothing but. NCSoft just officially registered the title to egg on the joke.

that seems plau





bahahahahahaha nah jk

Waffles

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #20698 on: December 04, 2015, 02:08:24 AM »
CoH 2 was in the works, but was scrapped since the E.P apparently hated CoH and wanted to try something else..

Abraxus

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #20699 on: December 04, 2015, 02:45:08 AM »
CoH 2 was in the works, but was scrapped since the E.P apparently hated CoH and wanted to try something else..

Probably for the best then.  I don't want anyone working on a CoH related project that does not love the game as much as we do!
What was no more, is now reborn!