New efforts!

[Blackstar5]

Although I played for a long time, I never really got far into the Incarnate powers because I didn't like to run large groups, where I started to gain my incarnate powers was when DA was re-worked to be for solo incarnate work. Additionally I would like to say that you (Titan Network) have given this nerd hope that his favorite game is coming back.

[Bold]

Not saying anything new here. Just another thank you to everyone for this, and for all the intel we're getting. Keeps my hopes up!

[Blackstar5]

and I'm still holding out hope for Christmas in the Chalet. :)

I'll buy the first round of drinks.

[Nightmarer]

Just for the record:  New information... since Ironwolf knows Jack Emmert and his Dev name, he is not one of the "people who worked on the game" in the new effort. Which Tony also confirmed on Facebook, so yeah, kind of a duh, but still officially new information.

BTW that Facebook thread -- I gather the keeping quiet thing is a ship that's kinda sailed.

I hope Synapse is one of them, I ain't done yet giving him a hard time for his "Reward merits" thing  >:(

[Nightmarer]

As far as MMO dev excuses go, that's right up there with Zenimax promising a smooth launch for TESO, and Bioware saying that they weren't expecting SWTOR players to reach the level cap so quickly :P

Let's not forget Positron saying he never imagined Architect Entertainment would be used for farming and powerlevelling  ;D

[ag88t88]

Aye, people should take another look at why CO is a very, cripplingly unpopular game.  You think being overpowered at the highest level was one thing try being overpowered at level 8 to the point of being near-INVINCIBLE at level 8.  Litterally unkillable by most enemies at that level range.  All one needs is regeneration in that game.  OR you could try any maintained self heal + invulnerability and every average enemy's attacks will do 1 damage out of 1000-5000 health.

People had even killed Mega Terak naked(as in no items equipped on character) by blocking with electrical shield and using regeneration rank 1, without using any attacks.

Sure, in CoX you could be overpowered pre-ED, and even post-ED you could become overpowered though you had to really earn it, but imagine being rediculously op from it being handed to you on a silver platter?  The game becomes a snooze-fest :).  CO, well, from what people told me did the exact opposite, the enemies got the global nerf....It was a horrible direction.

First of all I never stuck with CO long enough to get to the point of Level 8, any number of design choices in that game bother me, not to mention I found the experience of having to have a different account for CO, then a separate account for Perfect World, and having to go through perfect world to buy a sub or money in CO, all of that was not at all user friendly for me and made no sense and there was a lot of redirects to "go here to purchase in game items" and then sending me to another site that just sent me back.   So I never got much past the Tutorial with CO because I was completely under whelmed.

Also the interface is ugly as sin and unlike CoH there doesn't seem to be much for customization options on that.  I can't describe how awesome I thought the customizable GUI in CoH was, I wish every game did something like that.


Secondly, I don't know if Jack Emmert is still with CO or not, but I do know that everything I read about him, and interviews with him when he left CoH to go to CO, made me think he learned all the wrong lessons from CoH.  Like he had all the data but where ever possible drew the wrong conclusion from it.  I remember he talked about how no one wanted to play Villains in CoH based on Villain side not having as much interest, so that meant no one wanted to play Villains at all.   Of course it didn't occur to him that maybe Villain side in CoH had some huge flaws the community pointed out on a regular basis that needed to be fixed that would make it more attractive, no he just assumed no one wanted villains. 

I think maybe this happened with ED and the GDN too.  He remembered all the flak he got from CoH and so in CO he went the opposite direction, instead of just trying to figure out that the larger lesson was to make the game more balanced to begin with, not let people get used to it one way for 1-2 years then pull massive changes in something they like.


Lastly - I had a few OP toons in CoH after the EDN, especially once Very Rare recipes got into the mix and then of course Incarnate powers, and let me just say this, I loved[/u those characters.  I loved them because they were OP, but because I put a lot of time and effort into making them that way. Every time I took down a group of bad guys in just one AOE attack or could one shot a boss or go toe to toe with an EB and not break a sweat, I knew I had earned that easy victory. It also made me want to constantly push boundaries and eagerly await new content that promised to be more challenging because I knew I had a couple of Heroes that could really take a beating or dish out some insane damage. 

In the long run the "Nerfs" were good for balance, because it meant being OP was something you had to learn how to do and earn through the various methods and when you achieved it, it really did feel super. 

So yeah, Matt Miller and friends did a great job on game design, and Jack Emmert, not so much.  Don't get me wrong, I don't have the level of hate for the man some do, maybe because I joined in I5 after the big nerfs took place. (Right after actually I remember reading articles on them) but every time I read about him I just had the impression he didn't quite belong in the Hero-game business. 

[LaughingAlex]

Let's not forget Positron saying he never imagined Architect Entertainment would be used for farming and powerlevelling  ;D

I guess he's not of the mind of a typical "mmohtg player", particularly those who just think in terms of end game and skipping the game.  Many game developers probably wouldn't imagine people using things like AE to powerlevel because they aren't ones to powerlevel or demand others play very specifically or only play for the reward.  Some people don't have fun playing a game, they only have a small amount of fun when they are rewarded.  To them a game is just as well be another job, though they'll never admit to that, deny it even to themselves that they only do what they do for that big carrot that, if they get it, odds are they'd quit :/.

I thought about things for a long time, from conversations I had with those who never knew any other way to play a game other than the holy trinity, who thought all other games were unfun and whatnot, and it seems to me, such players literally are like Sheldon Cooper is :/. 

Leonard: "I thought you were having fun with your new friends?" 

Sheldon: "Oh I had to leave they were doing it wrong!"*in a very, very condescending, unemotional tone*.

One could, well, for some mmorpg players, substitute Sheldon for "typical mmorpg player".  So you see adverse behavior like attempting to speed run for a merit reward at the expense of others who are wanting exp and then telling them to join an AE farm, or panicking and going into a temper tantrum over knockback being used or even getting angry at a defender for not being an empathy defender.  Or exploding when that raid of theirs fails or acting like complete robots during the game themselves not displaying anything but extreme seriousness.

It's, well I pity such players, they have to be rather miserable individuals at life imo.  See Positron didn't expect people to power level with AE because he at the time probably didn't think about the players who only care about the end reward.  Those who, well, as I said, cannot have fun cause they don't know how, only win the reward at the end as thats the only thing they care about :/.

[Battlechimp]

And now we come to the reason I was often reluctant to team.  And why I actually stopped teaming for almost a year.  At one point I even had a notice in my profile saying I did not team with "experts".  I got an IM asking why not.  Why wouldn't I want to team with people who were good at it and would get me through a mission as fast and clean as possible.  I'm not an "expert" so I WILL disappoint you because I WILL do it "wrong".  Rather than being told I was doing it wrong I'd rather team with someone who was fun.  Even if we did stumble through the thing.  My objective was always to Have Fun.

You know, I had a similar conversation with someone not to long ago about this sort of thing.  She was complaining about not being able to do a certain dungeon because she hadn't run it before so no one would take her. So we got a few people together and ran her through it.  Because its always been my attitude that the "cool kids" or the experts in games like City weren't the guys who required specific things to do trials or TFs, but the people who could and would take anyone and make it work.

When ever I ran TFs and put out a call for more, you get the usual response of "what do you need?" My response to that was always "warm bodies" :-)

[LaughingAlex]

First of all I never stuck with CO long enough to get to the point of Level 8, any number of design choices in that game bother me, not to mention I found the experience of having to have a different account for CO, then a separate account for Perfect World, and having to go through perfect world to buy a sub or money in CO, all of that was not at all user friendly for me and made no sense and there was a lot of redirects to "go here to purchase in game items" and then sending me to another site that just sent me back.   So I never got much past the Tutorial with CO because I was completely under whelmed.

Also the interface is ugly as sin and unlike CoH there doesn't seem to be much for customization options on that.  I can't describe how awesome I thought the customizable GUI in CoH was, I wish every game did something like that.


Secondly, I don't know if Jack Emmert is still with CO or not, but I do know that everything I read about him, and interviews with him when he left CoH to go to CO, made me think he learned all the wrong lessons from CoH.  Like he had all the data but where ever possible drew the wrong conclusion from it.  I remember he talked about how no one wanted to play Villains in CoH based on Villain side not having as much interest, so that meant no one wanted to play Villains at all.   Of course it didn't occur to him that maybe Villain side in CoH had some huge flaws the community pointed out on a regular basis that needed to be fixed that would make it more attractive, no he just assumed no one wanted villains. 

I think maybe this happened with ED and the GDN too.  He remembered all the flak he got from CoH and so in CO he went the opposite direction, instead of just trying to figure out that the larger lesson was to make the game more balanced to begin with, not let people get used to it one way for 1-2 years then pull massive changes in something they like.


Lastly - I had a few OP toons in CoH after the EDN, especially once Very Rare recipes got into the mix and then of course Incarnate powers, and let me just say this, I loved[/u those characters.  I loved them because they were OP, but because I put a lot of time and effort into making them that way. Every time I took down a group of bad guys in just one AOE attack or could one shot a boss or go toe to toe with an EB and not break a sweat, I knew I had earned that easy victory. It also made me want to constantly push boundaries and eagerly await new content that promised to be more challenging because I knew I had a couple of Heroes that could really take a beating or dish out some insane damage. 

In the long run the "Nerfs" were good for balance, because it meant being OP was something you had to learn how to do and earn through the various methods and when you achieved it, it really did feel super. 

So yeah, Matt Miller and friends did a great job on game design, and Jack Emmert, not so much.  Don't get me wrong, I don't have the level of hate for the man some do, maybe because I joined in I5 after the big nerfs took place. (Right after actually I remember reading articles on them) but every time I read about him I just had the impression he didn't quite belong in the Hero-game business.

Jack Emmert is no longer in charge of CO.  And there were also a ton of power nerfs to characters to.  It's just that the enemies were nerfed to oblivion before those nerfs.  CO went free to play within a year due to what I called "constant excessive nerfs or buffs and introducing excess grinding".  I wrote a whole forum post on the titan forums.  http://cityoftitans.com/forum/mistakes-co-what-avoid is the thread.  Every change made was excessive, which lead, well, to more imbalance in the game than I saw anywhere else, even more than any rpg where mages become war-gods while physical fighters become weak.

Course, unlike CoX things didn't actually improve for CO after he left afterwards.  Heck things had remained in maintenance mode for way to long for it to make a come back at this point.

[LaughingAlex]

You know, I had a similar conversation with someone not to long ago about this sort of thing.  She was complaining about not being able to do a certain dungeon because she hadn't run it before so no one would take her. So we got a few people together and ran her through it.  Because its always been my attitude that the "cool kids" or the experts in games like City weren't the guys who required specific things to do trials or TFs, but the people who could and would take anyone and make it work.

When ever I ran TFs and put out a call for more, you get the usual response of "what do you need?" My response to that was always "warm bodies" :-)

I'm of that mindset myself.  I think of someone who requires everyone to have very specific things all the time, is a very poor CoX player.  One doesn't have to be a stop having fun guy to be narrow minded about how to play a game, what makes a scrub, a scrub in the original sense, is the equally narrow minded attitude they have.  Only difference is they oppose things they cannot deal with in some way, rather than getting angry about something not being the "best".  But both surprisingly believe their way of playing is the only way to play and are very annoyingly open and irrational about that belief.

What made me laugh alot looking back, is how both were chickens who avoided hard enemies to.  Some experts they are :).

[Harpospoke]

I was another person who initially hated ED.   Not because I had a bunch of characters who were effected, but because of things I was planning to try and didn't get to.   :)   I guess I"m lucky that I never based a bunch of characters around 6-slotting.     Perma Hasten didn't seem like it was killing the game...never got what the big deal was with that.

But with IO's I really grew to enjoy the whole thing.   My new obsession was to get as much benefit as I could from all enhancement categories.   MIDS was great there.  I have no idea why it was such a good feeling to discover a combination of IOs that would give me "max ED" damage, acc, recharge, and end reduction.  Sooo nerdy...but I loved it.    The day I figured out how to get perma-PA was awesome.  I disappeared into Wentworths for hours trying to get the sets I needed.  What a sight I much have been!

I like what others said about "earning that power".   I had a Blaster who was extremely hard to hit from range....but I had to work for that.   When I was in the mood to kill a map full of baddies...I knew my little Fire Controller was just the thing to scratch that itch.   She was bloated with purples I had to work for.   (And HO's....those were useful!)

[Harpospoke]

The beautiful thing about CoH is that it could be for you whatever you wanted it to be...

  If you wanted to max out every toon to the last drop and get every Incarnated goodie.. go do it..

  If you want to get every badge under the Paragon sun.. have it...

  If you were crazy multi level base builder guy... go for it..

  If you were I need to have as many costumes as possible... good for you...

  If you were a person who had to try every powerset so you had a gajillion alts.... great !!!

  If you liked the lower level missions and arcs you could turn your xp OFF if you chose and play there until your hearts content..

  If you had to examine ever twist and turn of every story arc... awesome !!!!

  CoH was what YOU wanted it to be..

Well said!  (applause)

Some of us were people who like all those things!   I would often pause at the sign in screen to figure out what mood I was in.

[LaughingAlex]

I was another person who initially hated ED.   Not because I had a bunch of characters who were effected, but because of things I was planning to try and didn't get to.   :)   I guess I"m lucky that I never based a bunch of characters around 6-slotting.     Perma Hasten didn't seem like it was killing the game...never got what the big deal was with that.

But with IO's I really grew to enjoy the whole thing.   My new obsession was to get as much benefit as I could from all enhancement categories.   MIDS was great there.  I have no idea why it was such a good feeling to discover a combination of IOs that would give me "max ED" damage, acc, recharge, and end reduction.  Sooo nerdy...but I loved it.    The day I figured out how to get perma-PA was awesome.  I disappeared into Wentworths for hours trying to get the sets I needed.  What a sight I much have been!

I like what others said about "earning that power".   I had a Blaster who was extremely hard to hit from range....but I had to work for that.   When I was in the mood to kill a map full of baddies...I knew my little Fire Controller was just the thing to scratch that itch.   She was bloated with purples I had to work for.   (And HO's....those were useful!)

From what I'd noticed, it seems the only people who forever hated ED were those who generally only used one strategy in the game, OR they quit and never played CoX when IO's came out.  They'd usually give themselves away as generally not learning.  Most people who played the game with IO's certainly know that the IO changes were especially positive.  Especially since the game only kept getting better overall after IO's came out.

[Harpospoke]

I also see alot of Pre-ED people in CO who generally enjoy repetitiveness and overly easy gameplay due to enemies being weak, even though they think they are gods in the game(someone bashing a weak enemy is not a deity, but someone who merely bashes very weak opponents). 

That comment made me start thinking.

I always thought that's what a god was?

I mean, you gotta be way more powerful than those around you to be a god, right?   Thor is a god to humans and Galactus is a god to Thor.

Beating an evenly matched opponent is great, but that doesn't make you a god, right?

[LaughingAlex]

That comment made me start thinking.

I always thought that's what a god was?

I mean, you gotta be way more powerful than those around you to be a god, right?   Thor is a god to humans and Galactus is a god to Thor.

Beating an evenly matched opponent is great, but that doesn't make you a god, right?

Well it's more that, your a god compared to the weaklings, but then, I always felt more powerful when I defeated a powerful opponent.  I tend to view someone who for some reason is only fighting weaker enemies as a bully.  Thing is though, many enemies in CO do such low damage that you literally have to let them destroy you for them to have even a small chance, and even then they may be utterly unable to.

Thing is CO is more casual than casual, and it's so much so it becomes boring very fast.  Especially when you get to the point of the game where level 30 enemies are doing LESS damage than level 20 enemies(yes, there is a point in the game like that).  Sure, an AT may not get to that ultra overly easy point in the game without help because unfortunately archtypes are horribly underpowered.  With enemies being so weak, well, you tend to see nothing but excessive nerfs, and, well, once in a while an excessive buff.

[ag88t88]

I'm of that mindset myself.  I think of someone who requires everyone to have very specific things all the time, is a very poor CoX player.  One doesn't have to be a stop having fun guy to be narrow minded about how to play a game, what makes a scrub, a scrub in the original sense, is the equally narrow minded attitude they have.  Only difference is they oppose things they cannot deal with in some way, rather than getting angry about something not being the "best".  But both surprisingly believe their way of playing is the only way to play and are very annoyingly open and irrational about that belief.

What made me laugh alot looking back, is how both were chickens who avoided hard enemies to.  Some experts they are :).

I very rarely ever said "my team really needs X" to get anything done.  I will admit on some TFs once the team started shaping up, if I thought the team was light on a certain aspect, DPS, Buffs, Debuffs etc. I might try to look for something specific for the last spot or two just to balance things out.  However I never much looked past what a persons AT was and what they said they could do.  I never cared if people had X power or didn't have X power, sure something like SB was nice but I wasn't going to pass over a kin if he didn't have it, hell it rarely occured to me to ask, unless in certain AV heavy TFs or something, if we had say a rad defender I might ask if they had lingering Rad but it was never a deal breaker if they didn't.  Mostly all I ever cared about was, wow we have a lot of DPS, maybe we could use some debuffs or controls and I'll look for a controller.  That's not to say I'd only accept controllers at that point but in the interest of making things a tad bit easier that's what I'd show some interest in.

That being said, one of the awesome things about CoH is that the game was balanced in such a way that really there were any number of solutions to any problem.  Ohh sure something like the ITF or STF might have been easier for certain team builds, but it wasn't like you just couldn't do them at all with certain teams, so long as people knew how to play and had some decent ideas on strategy.  Sure an All Blaster ITF might have been a little more difficult in the final fight with Romulus but I'm certain it could be done.  Hell now that I think about it I kind of want to try...

[CheerGunbunny]

I came in at Issue 12 (post-ED), and rarely had that big of a problem attaining Perma-Hasten with my L50's.  If that was the intent, ED failed.

ED stopped people who weren't hardcore Mids number-crunchers.   ;)

Well, those were examples off the top of my head...but especially running permanent Unstoppable is a sign something's broken....

:)

Also, I never used Mids.  every character I made, ever, was concept driven.  Their powersets were always dictated by their backstory.  I'm actually kinda proud of that, and yeah that's kinda elitist/snobby of me.  I loved Paragon for the STORIES....the plot lines as well as the wild bios of other players.

[silvers1]

I actually quit the game for about a year after the ED and GDN double whammy.  I felt that the changes to my favorite character ( tanker ) were a bit too drastic.  Not only were my defenses drastically reduced, but my already poor DPS was also nerfed.
Yes,  being able to herd an entire map was overpowered, but the only change needed for that was an aggro cap, which they implemented later on anyway.  As far as the "god mode" that people claimed tankers had, sorry I never saw that.  My Inv tanker was good against S/L mobs and that was about it. 

ED and GDN should not have occurred until IO sets were implemented, and I felt the entire fiasco was poorly handled.  The glee with which many forum posters greeted the nerfs on tankers just left a very sour taste in my mouth.

[HEATSTROKE]

Well, those were examples off the top of my head...but especially running permanent Unstoppable is a sign something's broken....

:)

Also, I never used Mids.  every character I made, ever, was concept driven.  Their powersets were always dictated by their backstory.  I'm actually kinda proud of that, and yeah that's kinda elitist/snobby of me.  I loved Paragon for the STORIES....the plot lines as well as the wild bios of other players.

You characters can be completely concept driven, your powers dictated by your backstory and still be an avid user of Mids. I know because I was one.. Many people thoughts Mids was about completely min/maxing trying to crunch every possible percentage to make your character the ultimate unstoppable build.. and it COULD be that..

Yet I used it to plan the direction I wanted to take my character so I wouldnt need to do unnecessary respecs (and there was a time there was no respec... whatever you took or slotted that was it)

For example I made an Arch/Devices blaster named SureShot. He had that Tech Monocle and the bow with the laser pointer. I have him the aura that had the laser coming out the same eye with the tech monocle.

Here is a bit of his bio

"The agent codenamed Sureshot is a former CIA operative sent to infiltrate the Malta Group and gather intel on the Knives of Artemis. His true affiliation is as member of the META ( Military Engineered Tactically Advanced ) group. Unofficially funded by the FIST, the META operation utilizes new nanomachine technology and genome projects to create artificial super powered individuals. The META project has had varying degrees of success, however they have been unable to control what abilities will manifest in each test subject. SureShot developed heightened vision and an uncanny sense of accuracy. He is accuracy is so acute he is able to locate what he calls "Shatterpoints" in objects, weak points he can target to inflict greater damage. His weapons, armor and cloaking device are variations of Malta and Knives technology. Sureshot while employing his targeting drone and eyepiece can even see "stealthed" targets which has prompted META to begin to use him on numerous Arachnos missions "

Now thats what I wanted out of him.. so how did Mids assist me in that goal. I built a character that has +38% To Hit Buff and +60% accuracy without Aim. With Aim it jumps to 98% to hit buff. That means that Sureshot can hit pretty much almost any target. He has hit Paragon Protectors while running Moment of Glory. Obviously he runs Targeting Drone and Tactics

His cloaking device is obviously in his secondary, however he has a superior device. So he has the +Stealth Unbound Leaping in Combat Jumping as well.

Because Devices doesnt not have Build Up.. I slotted in about a 35% Damage Buff from IO;s which simulates his ability to detect weak spots in target causing them more damage. He also runs Assault. This was further enhanced with the Musculature Alpha ability and Reactive Total Core Incarnate abilities.

He uses the Increased Perception Unique IO which helps him see stealth targets and he can pretty much ignore a Widow's Smoke Grenade.

I eventually took those Drones from the Incarnate stuff as pets and even had that cheap pet you could drop for a few minutes that would die the moment it was attacked.. I took those because it was cool running around with 4 tech drones...

Now he doesnt have perma hasten.. or any defense in his build. He does use his rocket books and can hover around very fast ( three slotted hover and three slotted swift with Flight enhancements )

I said all that to say that you CAN build completely for a concept and using Mids at the same time.

[HEATSTROKE]

I actually quit the game for about a year after the ED and GDN double whammy.  I felt that the changes to my favorite character ( tanker ) were a bit too drastic.  Not only were my defenses drastically reduced, but my already poor DPS was also nerfed.
Yes,  being able to herd an entire map was overpowered, but the only change needed for that was an aggro cap, which they implemented later on anyway.  As far as the "god mode" that people claimed tankers had, sorry I never saw that.  My Inv tanker was good against S/L mobs and that was about it. 

ED and GDN should not have occurred until IO sets were implemented, and I felt the entire fiasco was poorly handled.  The glee with which many forum posters greeted the nerfs on tankers just left a very sour taste in my mouth.

I agree unfortunately the IO system wasnt ready to go.. and they had to make some changes before hand to balance the game around it system. What they SHOULD have done was announce the IO system first.. give everyone a written understanding of it.. and SHOW why the changes were coming.. and THEN make the changes.. some would have been mad and left anyway.. Emmert's biggest mistake was that he LIED to the community flat out LIED.. I dont think he ever understood the community, the resource it could have been or the power of the community of City of Heroes.. but that being said...

Post ED my Invul/NRG accomplished things it couldnt PRE-ED..

35% Defense to S/L/F/E and 20% to Psi

88% S/L Resistance and 15% to Psi

Now the key to this tank... Perma Dull Pain.. I have tanked Malaise and Mother Mayhem... both Psi AV;s with this tank.. and they couldnt take him down past half his HP.. Perma Dull Pain will completely recharge and fill his health bar in 109 seconds.. They have to beat me in less than a minute and a half.. and 340% Regen helps that

And thats not running Unstoppable which I still have if I need it ( but I have never used it )

And pretty much I could make any Tank pretty darn near impossible to beat in some form or another post ED..