Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7291457 times)

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11640 on: September 17, 2014, 01:39:51 AM »
Well relative to everyone else blasters got "weaker" as levels increased. I'm sure the metrics would show quite a few folks bailing on controllers at low levels.

In fact, controllers seemed to gain in popularity with each level range datamined.  I'm sure every archetype had some players giving up on them, but as of I13ish controllers were apparently among the more "sticky" archetypes.

I wouldn't be surprised to discover that they were abandoned at higher rates pre-containment, because one of the reasons the devs gave for the addition of containment was that their numbers showed controllers struggling pre-level 32 pets.

Noyjitat

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11641 on: September 17, 2014, 02:11:15 AM »
Just a thought and correct me if I'm wrong:
Those of the alt-o-holics out there that were perfectly fine without trials ever being added. If we had as many trials as we had story arcs and taskforces. Lets say we have a combined 500 storyarcs and task forces but only 300 incarnate trials would you still feel they were grindy?

Or lets be more realistic and say the game was never shutdown and a this point we're up to issue 30 and we have the praetorian trials and now probably 7 or more battalion trials.
Would that still be grindy if your definition is grindy because of lack of choice or are you saying the system as a whole was in your opinion grindy regardless.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 02:51:40 AM by Noyjitat »

JanessaVR

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11642 on: September 17, 2014, 02:12:12 AM »
In fact, controllers seemed to gain in popularity with each level range datamined.  I'm sure every archetype had some players giving up on them, but as of I13ish controllers were apparently among the more "sticky" archetypes.

I wouldn't be surprised to discover that they were abandoned at higher rates pre-containment, because one of the reasons the devs gave for the addition of containment was that their numbers showed controllers struggling pre-level 32 pets.
Indeed.  It was my experience, at least, that controllers frequently needed teams until they hit their mid-30's, then they really came into their own.  They were awesome, but a bit fragile until they grew up a bit.  :)

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11643 on: September 17, 2014, 02:17:27 AM »
Indeed.  It was my experience, at least, that controllers frequently needed teams until they hit their mid-30's, then they really came into their own.  They were awesome, but a bit fragile until they grew up a bit.  :)

but that was the way the Controller AT was built from the beginning. weak at the start.. stronger in the end..

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11644 on: September 17, 2014, 02:18:52 AM »
But what you're calling grinding is no different than the rest of the game.

I hate to be this guy but...http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding_(video_gaming)

The fact of the matter is you had to repeat the -exact- same mission over and over again just gain a reward. That by definition is a grind. If you had to run random missions/tasks that may be similar but are indeed different, then that is no longer considered a grind. Although the line may be thin when it comes to terminology, it is quite obvious that incarnate trials were much more of a grind than anything else this game offered.

Now this isn't a debate as to whether or not you enjoyed them more than other parts of the game, or even if someone had friends to play it with making it more fun and easy. I see how you're trying to connect grinding to the rest of the game but if that's your standards for what a grind is then every single game ever made is a grinder, which is just not the case. CoH offered lots of missions that allowed you to level up your character in whatever way you chose. That could have been through radios, tf's, mob hunting, gm hunting, farming, point being you could get to the same spot without having to literally do one thing over and over. In the case of incarnate abilities you had the option of running one mission to earn xp that goes towards one reward, with zero ability to choose how you want to achieve that goal.

I'm sure we all understand you and your friends enjoyed the iTrials, but like I said before that does not change the facts. I myself enjoy a game called warriors orochi that revolved around grinding, it was essentially my first exposure to dynasty warriors like games. However for most players outside of Korea/China, grinding in MMO's does not tickle my fancy.

As far as Matt Miller goes, I think me withholding my opinion on the man speaks loud enough as to what those opinions actually are.

JanessaVR

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11645 on: September 17, 2014, 02:23:46 AM »
but that was the way the Controller AT was built from the beginning. weak at the start.. stronger in the end..
I'm not saying it wasn't.  But it's an excellent example of Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards, and thus, as Arcana notes above, is why many people likely abandoned the class in its early levels due to frustration with it.  I certainly did, when I was new to the game.  After getting severely frustrated trying to play a controller, it took me another 2 plus years before I would go near them again, I was so wary of them.  But by the end of the game, they were my favorite class to play.  It just took lots of experience with the game for me to get to that point.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11646 on: September 17, 2014, 02:36:09 AM »
Oddly enough, that's why I like the idea of being able to let those self-selected experts get attention on the AT-trial mismatch question (via such a metric and followup surveys).  If such a signal does appear among even such an experience group, one can be fairly certain there's a real mismatch between a particular AT and a given trial, not just a phantom signal from semi-casual players who haven't yet found a tactic to enjoy their character's possible roles in that trial.  It does require/assume there would be a large enough sample of devoted "not in it for the Merits" players to show anything on this point.  And I wouldn't propose using that self-selected experts/"trial lovers" metric as the only one.  For example, metrics for alt-heavy Incarnate players could be quite useful...though they'd probably already seen those (I fit there somewhere).  My curiosity led me to ponder a metric they may not have even considered.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.  For example, there was definitely a deficit in masterminds, and that was because most players, even the power gamers, were upset about their (lack of) ability in the iTrials, with good reason (as I noted, the purple patch is explicitly intended to "punish" players that venture above +5, where the curve gets radically steeper, but Masterminds with their -2 and -1 pets are compelled to operate in that regime).  There was also a deficit of VEATs (at least by my reckoning) but I don't think that was because VEATs were problematic, rather it was because a higher percentage of players were interested in developing other characters besides VEATs earlier.  In other words, I think far less players were likely to "prioritize" VEATs in iTrials simply because VEATs were newer, and more players were more likely to be attached to and want to develop other characters first.  If the game had lasted longer, I believe they would have eventually shown up in greater numbers more in line with their population overall.

Another factor to consider is that on most servers the iTrial runners were divided into two basic groups: the organizers and the followers.  Pick up iTrials happened, but a large percentage were organized efforts driven by the same smaller group of players that gathered members from a larger pool of "me too" players.  These two groups were in it for different reasons statistically.  An assumption that might not hold is the assumption that there were two main reasons for a player to run an iTrial: they enjoyed running the content for the pure gameplay, or they did it just for the rewards, or both.  But there was a third reason: they may have run them because they liked to organize and run large scale content of any kind.

Trust me: almost nobody actually liked herding cats in a Hamidon trial (especially pre-I9).  That element of "gameplay" is only enjoyable to a masochistic few.  But there were people who enjoyed on a meta level organizing and leading the raids, and did it for the satisfaction of doing so.

One more statistics-skewing (related) issue was badge hunting.  I ran a lot of iTrials that were explicitly intended to hunt badges, without regard to any other rewards.  I know a lot of players that helped out in those trials for no other reason but to help out other players.  They had enough incarnate rewards to choke Jurassik to death and had better content options to run, but they enjoyed helping other players acquire those specific rewards.  On Triumph, badge runs might have been more than 10% of all iTrials ever run (I wrote a definitive Obliteration guide based on the work we did to first snag that badge on Triumph).  If I was doing something else and someone asked if I wanted in on an iTrial, sometimes I did and sometimes I didn't.  But if someone specifically asked me to help them on an iTrial badge run, I would almost invariably drop what I was doing (if solo) to do so.

Noyjitat

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11647 on: September 17, 2014, 02:40:25 AM »


I'm sure we all understand you and your friends enjoyed the iTrials

Well now that just sounds like only a small portion of the community enjoyed them...  ??? Was Liberty the only server that had a very active involvement in incarnate trials?

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11648 on: September 17, 2014, 03:00:20 AM »
I hate to be this guy but...http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding_(video_gaming)

The fact of the matter is you had to repeat the -exact- same mission over and over again just gain a reward. That by definition is a grind. If you had to run random missions/tasks that may be similar but are indeed different, then that is no longer considered a grind.

By who?  The question of whether something is a grind or not doesn't have an explicit definitive definition, wikipedia notwithstanding.  The general concept is that grinding is when a player deliberately does the same basic activity repeatedly when the overwhelming reason is to earn rewards from that activity.  I think most players would agree running PvP missions over and over again to level as fast as possible is grinding, even if the content is not the exact same mission over and over (I did that when CoV first launched to try to be among the first to ding 40 - I was somewhere around 8th overall on Triumph with a stalker of all things - and I did it specifically to see if I could and for no other reason, but I still think it was grinding).

The critical subjective issues are what the motivation of the player is, and to what degree they believe they are running completely repetitive content.  If I run Lambdas all day long because I love Lambdas, and another player runs the same Lambdas with me but only because they feel its the only way to earn enough incarnate rewards, he's grinding and I'm not.  If I run Lambdas all day long but each time completely differently, on different alts, with different tactical gameplay I might decide that's not a grind because to me, I'm not running the exact same content repeatedly.  If I run Lambdas all day long because I'm on a team that wants to break the server record for Lambda, I might still not consider that grinding because the multiple runs might be similar, but the objective isn't about the repetition per se.

What constitutes "the exact same content" is different for different players, and that's part of why there's significant disagreement as to what constitutes grinding.  Personally, I think running random newspaper missions for an hour to earn the last two bubbles to level before calling it a night is in fact grinding.  Mostly harmless grinding, but grinding nonetheless, even though the content is not "exactly" the same.  I think the principle of grinding is observed there.  Conversely, someone who tries to defeat all the pylons in the RWZ solo, just for bragging rights, is not grinding pylons even if they are doing something far more repetitive than the newspaper player.  They are in fact doing something eighteen times in a row, but in their mind they are actually doing one single thing which has eighteen identical parts, and if they don't see themselves as grinding I don't think it is, even if there were substantial rewards involved.

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11649 on: September 17, 2014, 03:02:46 AM »
Hello All,
              Yes I still live (to those guardianites who care). I love COH. ALL of it. I can't wait for it to return. I enjoyed everything--PVP, missions, early game-late game. I was end game more than anything-I liked dusting off a maxed out 50+3 and kicking ass--was kinda the point of rolling a toon in the first place(for me). I also enjoyed a good challenge, it was really satisfying to "gutcheck" and finish a mission/TF with a team after megawipes that you were sure weren't up to the challenge at first. I tried to make sure to help the newbies when I could--never wanted to be that jaded VETERAN player that was too good to help.
                                          Anyway thats my 2 cents-take it or leave it-punks
                                               Godspeed to IRONWOLF and the mysteryteam.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11650 on: September 17, 2014, 03:19:44 AM »
Well now that just sounds like only a small portion of the community enjoyed them...  ??? Was Liberty the only server that had a very active involvement in incarnate trials?

The iTrial community of Triumph was much smaller, but it was still large enough for me to tier 4 three separate characters and make a serious attempt to make every single Incarnate power on my main just for giggles (I didn't make it; it would have taken  almost a year from when the shutdown happened to get there at my rate, and by then there would have been more slots).

Personally, I liked the change of pace that iTrials provided me.  It felt like that "world of cardboard" speech Superman makes, where most of the time my gameplay expertise was locked up inside of characters far less powerful than I could build, and then I would log in my strongest and most powerful characters and use them at their absolute maximum capability for a sustained period of time.  To me, running a chain (Lam, BAF, Keyes, Underground, say) was entertaining in a very liberating way.

But then again, I'm crazy.  I did the original zookeeper in four and a half hours straight just to win a bet.

Power Gamer

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11651 on: September 17, 2014, 03:38:25 AM »
Virtue was fairly busy with iTrials.
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MM3squints

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11652 on: September 17, 2014, 03:44:17 AM »

But then again, I'm crazy.  I did the original zookeeper in four and a half hours straight just to win a bet.

Oh ya I'm crazier. I farmed monkies for 8 hours when the broken prestige was active xD (Monkies used to give 50 prestige a kill. Have a controller with psi mastery you heard them, then use psi tornado, let prestige flow xD)

ivanhedgehog

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11653 on: September 17, 2014, 04:00:11 AM »
I'm not saying it wasn't.  But it's an excellent example of Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards, and thus, as Arcana notes above, is why many people likely abandoned the class in its early levels due to frustration with it.  I certainly did, when I was new to the game.  After getting severely frustrated trying to play a controller, it took me another 2 plus years before I would go near them again, I was so wary of them.  But by the end of the game, they were my favorite class to play.  It just took lots of experience with the game for me to get to that point.

try leveling a stone tank weak until about lvl 23 the work to 32 and wow..it gets granite

Blondeshell

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11654 on: September 17, 2014, 04:08:58 AM »
One more statistics-skewing (related) issue was badge hunting.  I ran a lot of iTrials that were explicitly intended to hunt badges, without regard to any other rewards.  I know a lot of players that helped out in those trials for no other reason but to help out other players.  They had enough incarnate rewards to choke Jurassik to death and had better content options to run, but they enjoyed helping other players acquire those specific rewards.  On Triumph, badge runs might have been more than 10% of all iTrials ever run (I wrote a definitive Obliteration guide based on the work we did to first snag that badge on Triumph).  If I was doing something else and someone asked if I wanted in on an iTrial, sometimes I did and sometimes I didn't.  But if someone specifically asked me to help them on an iTrial badge run, I would almost invariably drop what I was doing (if solo) to do so.

Case in point: all the runs we made trying to get Avoids the Green Stuff. I know we did at least nine Keyes runs during a 26-hour period specifically trying to hone our technique on that one badge.

Then it was all:

Code: [Select]
08-28-2011 23:55:34 Congratulations! You earned the Avoids the Green Stuff badge.
08-28-2011 23:55:38 [League] Powerthrust: YES!
08-28-2011 23:55:39 [League] Blondeshell: YEAAAH
08-28-2011 23:55:39 [League] Caravan: woo
08-28-2011 23:55:39 [League] Exabecquerel: rare
08-28-2011 23:55:39 [League] White Succubus: YAY!
08-28-2011 23:55:40 [League] Emerald Fusion: woot!
08-28-2011 23:55:43 [League] -Michael: Congratulations! You earned the Avoids the Green Stuff badge.
08-28-2011 23:55:44 [League] Exabecquerel: and green stuff
08-28-2011 23:55:44 [League] Lady Arcana: boyah!
08-28-2011 23:55:45 [League] Blondeshell: common :(
08-28-2011 23:55:46 [League] Moonlite Shadow: Common
08-28-2011 23:55:48 [League] Scarlet Evans: awesome guys :)
08-28-2011 23:55:48 [League] HotPepper: Beam....RUN! OMG RUN!
08-28-2011 23:55:51 [League] White Succubus: thanks all
08-28-2011 23:55:51 [League] Powerthrust: Yeah, common!
08-28-2011 23:55:53 [League] Blondeshell: GAH! I'M BEING <bleep!> DISINTEGRATED!
08-28-2011 23:55:53 [League] Lady Arcana: and my thirst threads reward, lol
08-28-2011 23:55:55 [League] Tugg: nice
08-28-2011 23:55:56 [League] War Wench: well. ty guys..
08-28-2011 23:55:56 [League] Exabecquerel: thanks everyone
08-28-2011 23:56:06 [League] Emerald Fusion: awesome
08-28-2011 23:56:09 [League] Fireflyte: Yay!...
08-28-2011 23:56:09 [League] Hope Turner: woot GJ ppl out there
08-28-2011 23:56:11 [League] HotPepper: weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
08-28-2011 23:56:11 [League] Blondeshell: yes, nicely done
08-28-2011 23:56:17 [League] Powerthrust: I think Em and I getting trapped out of the hospital was actually rather serendipitous.
08-28-2011 23:56:22 [League] Emerald Fusion: yeah
08-28-2011 23:56:24 [League] White Succubus: seem so
08-28-2011 23:56:25 [League] HotPepper: i knew we could do it finally
08-28-2011 23:56:32 [League] Emerald Fusion: he was sending the beams toward us
08-28-2011 23:56:36 [League] -Michael: 1 more to go... no deaths
08-28-2011 23:56:37 [League] War Wench: u could..
08-28-2011 23:56:38 [League] Emerald Fusion: was easy to avoid it
08-28-2011 23:56:45 [League] White Succubus: and uncommon
08-28-2011 23:56:49 [League] Emerald Fusion: rare
08-28-2011 23:56:53 [League] War Wench: k.. we ALL go to hosp for it? lol
08-28-2011 23:56:54 [League] Blondeshell: yeah, i thought there were some times I didn't see it over here
08-28-2011 23:57:07 [League] Powerthrust: Plus our Lores could help with him...not sure if em actually sent them out though.
08-28-2011 23:57:07 [League] Caravan: yeah there were a couple times
08-28-2011 23:57:27 [League] Moonlite Shadow: I still need Anti-Anti
08-28-2011 23:57:30 [League] Exabecquerel: same here
08-28-2011 23:57:35 [League] Comet Avenger: hi miss could i have this dance?
08-28-2011 23:57:36 [League] Emerald Fusion: nah, didnt think so send my Lores
08-28-2011 23:57:45 [League] Emerald Fusion: same here, need Anti-Anti
08-28-2011 23:57:56 [League] Lady Arcana: thanks for the great badge run guys, now I need to run.
08-28-2011 23:58:02 [League] Blondeshell: cya Arcana
08-28-2011 23:58:05 [League] -Michael: later arcana
08-28-2011 23:58:07 [League] Exabecquerel: cya Arcana
08-28-2011 23:58:10 [League] HotPepper: yes 6am comes early
08-28-2011 23:58:11 [League] Powerthrust: By Arcana.

I think that effort was even more intense than what we did for either The Hard Way or The Really Hard Way, from what I remember.

amrobinson

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11655 on: September 17, 2014, 04:43:25 AM »
Alts are awesome.

Although it might be a stretch to say Posi was anti-alt. He simply stated a conclusion that alts may have had a negative effect.
Whatever the truth, it was the ability to make nearly limitless costumes that intrigued so many.

Clearly the CoH devs long realized the value of alts, else why would they keep adding new powersets?

Newcomers to the game really couldn't care less if there were 62 powersets instead of only 60. But every new set that arrived was eagerly snapped up and used to create many new alts.

How many quarterstaff users or beastmasters suddenly appeared in Atlas once those sets arrived?

Creating new alts certainly kept CoH ever fresh to me.

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Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11656 on: September 17, 2014, 05:12:07 AM »
I think that effort was even more intense than what we did for either The Hard Way or The Really Hard Way, from what I remember.

I remember that run (booyah!).  I believe I was one of the designated bunny hoppers in that sequence of runs.  For the people attacking AM, it was tense but not difficult: we had a lot of practice.  I figured out a trick  I shared with most of the attackers and then wrote a guide for.  The hard part was trying to avoid getting hit by a beam you couldn't see.  The easy way to do that was to *always* run if you didn't see a beam.  The object wasn't to move *away* from the beam, it was to move *towards* somewhere you knew the beam definitely was not.

Really Hard Way took a ton of tries.  I demorecorded every attempt and youtubed the first successful one.  If you want to see if you can find yourself in it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txZg2B_oomI&list=UUkyaL-2ZrJKmVBhTkHHUKvg (man I really loved my Ion Judgment, didn't I).

I wish I had frapped it, but I didn't want to take a chance on fraps crashing my client on any of the really hard way runs.

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11657 on: September 17, 2014, 05:21:35 AM »
Personally, I liked the change of pace that iTrials provided me.  It felt like that "world of cardboard" speech Superman makes, where most of the time my gameplay expertise was locked up inside of characters far less powerful than I could build, and then I would log in my strongest and most powerful characters and use them at their absolute maximum capability for a sustained period of time.

The speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl_5UwS57X8

My favorite part: "I hold back so that no one dies!" *promptly punches Darkseid through three (probably occupied) buildings, and then Air Superiorities him into ground, causing a massive (and probably deadly) shockwave*
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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11658 on: September 17, 2014, 06:56:01 AM »
I wish I had frapped it, but I didn't want to take a chance on fraps crashing my client on any of the really hard way runs.

When's the last time you updated fraps? It's been a very very long time since it caused my games to crash.

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11659 on: September 17, 2014, 07:09:45 AM »
The speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl_5UwS57X8

My favorite part: "I hold back so that no one dies!" *promptly punches Darkseid through three (probably occupied) buildings, and then Air Superiorities him into ground, causing a massive (and probably deadly) shockwave*

Loved that scene. Also I suspect Superman would have scanned the area with xray and telescopic vision to ensure Darkseid's flight path would have no civilians in it. Even if they did have some civilians they'd be protected by the same plot armor that was in Superman 2 in that buildings didn't collapse and no civilians died.  ;)
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