TIMING OF LEGACY PROJECTS

[0nehanklap]

Honestly, pure randomness is not the goal, here. If we can do things like make the craft system robust enough that even the "crap drops" eventually can be worked around by a dedicated crafter into what he "really wanted," they can sell decently well and work through the economy to become what people want.

Crafting aside, I cannot count how many times in CoX I wished that I could take my stacks of some unneeded common salvage to a junkyard vendor and trade them, even at a ratio of 10/2, for some other more useful salvage of equal value.  Just the addition of 1 vendor could have made such a huge impact on easing many shortages.

[JaguarX]

Crafting aside, I cannot count how many times in CoX I wished that I could take my stacks of some unneeded common salvage to a junkyard vendor and trade them, even at a ratio of 10/2, for some other more useful salvage of equal value.  Just the addition of 1 vendor could have made such a huge impact on easing many shortages.

indeed.

[HEATSTROKE]

I only have one thought right now on the Pay2Win issue..

After 6-7 years of playing CoH you know what.. sometimes I just want to kit out my character the way I want to.. so If I want to spend my money to do so.. and buy whatever enhancement I want to do that.. I should have the ability to do so if I want to.. period.. If I want to spend 5 bucks to get those last two enchancements.. I should be able to do so..

[JaguarX]

I only have one thought right now on the Pay2Win issue..

After 6-7 years of playing CoH you know what.. sometimes I just want to kit out my character the way I want to.. so If I want to spend my money to do so.. and buy whatever enhancement I want to do that.. I should have the ability to do so if I want to.. period.. If I want to spend 5 bucks to get those last two enchancements.. I should be able to do so..

Yup.

[saipaman]

AE Babies agree with you.

[HEATSTROKE]

 I say make everything available the way it was.. you want to farm for drops.. do it... You want to do TF's and get merits.. do it.. You want to do that thing with the cards with random rewards.. do it.. Store bought enhancements.. sure why not..  I dont get all the crying over Pay 2 Win.. I always figured it was PvP whiners and in all honest I never PvP'd so it didnt matter to me..

 I mean really.. I paid and won WHAT ?? What did I win ?? ooh I paid and won a Positrons Blast IO ?? or a Numina's Regen Recovery IO big whup...

[silvers1]

I say make everything available the way it was.. you want to farm for drops.. do it... You want to do TF's and get merits.. do it.. You want to do that thing with the cards with random rewards.. do it.. Store bought enhancements.. sure why not..  I dont get all the crying over Pay 2 Win.. I always figured it was PvP whiners and in all honest I never PvP'd so it didnt matter to me..

 I mean really.. I paid and won WHAT ?? What did I win ?? ooh I paid and won a Positrons Blast IO ?? or a Numina's Regen Recovery IO big whup...

If we have a system like CoH where enhancements have no huge impact on overall performance, I have no issue.  However, if its like my current game, Neverwinter,  where almost EVERY lfm request has a gear requirement, then I do have an issue.  I dont want to be sitting there kept off teams because I don't have the gear requirements while Mr. Moneybags has no problem.   Bottom line, any game where I spend more time spinning my wheels doing nothing will not long have my patronage. 

[Segev]

If we have a system like CoH where enhancements have no huge impact on overall performance, I have no issue.  However, if its like my current game, Neverwinter,  where almost EVERY lfm request has a gear requirement, then I do have an issue.  I dont want to be sitting there kept off teams because I don't have the gear requirements while Mr. Moneybags has no problem.   Bottom line, any game where I spend more time spinning my wheels doing nothing will not long have my patronage.

Honestly, I think that this has nothing to do with "pay2win" being a thing. It sounds like a problem with the game's design, if you're spinning your wheels doing nothing. Pay2win would be an avenue around the particular obstacle you're naming, but the existence of the obstacle in a manner that prevents people from playing the game is...counterproductive.

By making sure the "pay2win" crowd is dependent on the same auction house as everybody else, and thus what drops others have gotten as "surplus" over what they want for themselves, I think the game will still have to be designed such that there are minimal to no such obstacles to play. After all, if the items needed aren't dropping, nobody - pay2win or otherwise - is going to be able to do the "gear requirement" missions. So we'll need to design them such that that doesn't become a problem in the first place.

[HEATSTROKE]

Honestly, I think that this has nothing to do with "pay2win" being a thing. It sounds like a problem with the game's design, if you're spinning your wheels doing nothing. Pay2win would be an avenue around the particular obstacle you're naming, but the existence of the obstacle in a manner that prevents people from playing the game is...counterproductive.

By making sure the "pay2win" crowd is dependent on the same auction house as everybody else, and thus what drops others have gotten as "surplus" over what they want for themselves, I think the game will still have to be designed such that there are minimal to no such obstacles to play. After all, if the items needed aren't dropping, nobody - pay2win or otherwise - is going to be able to do the "gear requirement" missions. So we'll need to design them such that that doesn't become a problem in the first place.

 Thank You. One thing that I think CoH did very well is that your "gear" or " loot " as it were was something effectively behind the scenes.. there was no Helmet of Disintegration visible for everyone to see... so you werent shunned if you didnt have it.. And also I know people who NEVER did IO's more than the basic ones because they either didnt understand the system or didnt have the time and yet they never felt as if they were substandard...

 Me I like to get as much out of my toons for my own enjoyment.. and that will vary from toon to toon.. One blaster I built for defense and mega damage.. another was a sapper.. my nrg nrg I built as a superior range fighter with Damage/Range Hami's in every ranged attack.. I farmed for some IO's.. did missions for some.. traded with other players for some.. got merits for some.. bought Superpacks ( which I enjoyed ) for some.. bought some at auction.. paid Paragon Points for some...

 Bottom Line.. there were several options available for me to get what I wanted or needed..

[JaguarX]

Thank You. One thing that I think CoH did very well is that your "gear" or " loot " as it were was something effectively behind the scenes.. there was no Helmet of Disintegration visible for everyone to see... so you werent shunned if you didnt have it.. And also I know people who NEVER did IO's more than the basic ones because they either didnt understand the system or didnt have the time and yet they never felt as if they were substandard...

 Me I like to get as much out of my toons for my own enjoyment.. and that will vary from toon to toon.. One blaster I built for defense and mega damage.. another was a sapper.. my nrg nrg I built as a superior range fighter with Damage/Range Hami's in every ranged attack.. I farmed for some IO's.. did missions for some.. traded with other players for some.. got merits for some.. bought Superpacks ( which I enjoyed ) for some.. bought some at auction.. paid Paragon Points for some...

 Bottom Line.. there were several options available for me to get what I wanted or needed..

Well I seen more than a few people say they were substandard if they didn't have IOs and seen some people say if one is 50 and not playing with IO sets, they are playing gimped. There were plenty of "learn to play the market and get IOs" post on the old forums. Then when people posted builds after IOS came out, just about every last one of them had every IO they could get their hands on. When someone asked how or what builds are good, usually in just about all the cases someone posted an fully IOed set out build. In a way, although realty may have been different overall, between the forum posts alone with build guides after IOs, I can see how some people felt IOS was needed because when they asked for tips, IOs was always somewhere in the equation. No one posted SOed out builds or bragged about SO only builds on the forum after the IOs came about.

 And seen some team "interviews" where if a person said they didn't do IOs or didn't have them, they were immediately booted from the team.

[HEATSTROKE]

Well I seen more than a few people say they were substandard if they didn't have IOs and seen some people say if one is 50 and not playing with IO sets, they are playing gimped. There were plenty of "learn to play the market and get IOs" post on the old forums. Then when people posted builds after IOS came out, just about every last one of them had every IO they could get their hands on. When someone asked how or what builds are good, usually in just about all the cases someone posted an fully IOed set out build. In a way, although realty may have been different overall, between the forum posts alone with build guides after IOs, I can see how some people felt IOS was needed because when they asked for tips, IOs was always somewhere in the equation. No one posted SOed out builds or bragged about SO only builds on the forum after the IOs came about.

 And seen some team "interviews" where if a person said they didn't do IOs or didn't have them, they were immediately booted from the team.

 Yet none of that was required to play the game.. I loved the invention system.. and I loved using IO's in fact my SG used to joke and say that I loved respec'ing as much as playing.. and often times I did.. and I was a forum regular and I posted IO builds.. and yet NONE of that was actually required to play and enjoy the game.

 And sure there the elitist crowd who boot people from teams because they dont have this or that.. That exists in every game.. yet that person for me would just be deprived of playing with someone.. I remember we had a kid on our team who had a Willpower Tank who kept dying.. I was like.. why does this kid keep dying.. I talked to him and found out he hadnt taken Mind Over Body. When I explained to him what it did he was like.. OH.. I added him to my friends list and said hey if you ever have a question PM me..

 Two days later he was like.. hey I respecd and added that power and it does make a huge difference...

 Now I could have said NOOB.. LEARN TO PLAY !!! IDIOT !!!... and kicked him off the team.. but then I wouldnt have made a new friend..

 And again I played with many people who said.. I dont get the IO's or I dont care about them I just want to play the way I always have.. and those people had plenty of fun.. one was in my SG.. and I knew others..  As long as there is a way for everyone to enjoy what they play and how they play... thats all that matters..

[JaguarX]

Yet none of that was required to play the game.. I loved the invention system.. and I loved using IO's in fact my SG used to joke and say that I loved respec'ing as much as playing.. and often times I did.. and I was a forum regular and I posted IO builds.. and yet NONE of that was actually required to play and enjoy the game.

 And sure there the elitist crowd who boot people from teams because they dont have this or that.. That exists in every game.. yet that person for me would just be deprived of playing with someone.. I remember we had a kid on our team who had a Willpower Tank who kept dying.. I was like.. why does this kid keep dying.. I talked to him and found out he hadnt taken Mind Over Body. When I explained to him what it did he was like.. OH.. I added him to my friends list and said hey if you ever have a question PM me..

 Two days later he was like.. hey I respecd and added that power and it does make a huge difference...

 Now I could have said NOOB.. LEARN TO PLAY !!! IDIOT !!!... and kicked him off the team.. but then I wouldnt have made a new friend..

 And again I played with many people who said.. I dont get the IO's or I dont care about them I just want to play the way I always have.. and those people had plenty of fun.. one was in my SG.. and I knew others..  As long as there is a way for everyone to enjoy what they play and how they play... thats all that matters..

Indeed it wasn't needed to play. But the image that when new players ask for tips and IOs come up, only IO builds seem to be posted did give an image especially to those that didn't play long time, that IOs were integral part of building process at 50. Like if someone that have no clue how to build a house ask in a forum of house builders that have built a few, what materials is needed to build a sturdy house and each plan consist of brick houses. It may look like, one need bricks to build a house when in fact many other materials are just as suitable.  They may not know that it's not required. They asked how to build one, and all the "experts" use bricks, so to them it looks like brick it is.  It give that image that bricks are needed even though it may not be. And it's easy to say that brick is not needed but then if brick was not in fact needed then why not showing guides with building with wood or adobe.

Or like if someone is wanting to know what engine should they drop and everyone said GM 500 engine. Of course no one needs a GM 500 crate engine and a 350 or even 305 might suffice. Of course GM 500 users may consider it stupid to not go 500 and waste of time going with anything less "leet". Those are in any crowd, games and otherwise for real.  But someone not experience may get the idea that it must be GM 500 or else it's a waste of time if one ask how to do or what is good and the GM 500 is at the center of all of it and may not be aware that a 305 might be able to get them to where they want to be and maybe better with proper tuning because no one said so or even thought to mention it as an option.


And glad to hear you didn't join the "IO leet crowd". Little gestures like that instead of jumping on their case for every little mistake, goes a long way in setting the mood for new players. A concept many of those "leet" didn't seem to be able to grasp.  There were too many of them as is. One is too many. :p

[Segev]

Hm. I wonder if having some sort of limited resource that made it so you could have only certain "amounts" of "I.O."-equivalents on a given character would help with that. Not completely solve it, but help.

Call it "awesomeness," and you have to have a certain amount of it for every I.O. you want to have equipped. You gain more "awesomeness" as you level, of course, and maybe that's something you continue to gain through "levels" even if everything else about leveling up stops being meaningful. Or maybe it's something you can get through "endgame advancement" in a non-leveling sense. But there's no "you have to be 100% I.O.s or you stink" because that's still further you have to progress beyond max. level to be ABLE to have "all" I.O.s all the time. Maybe we could even use awesomeness as our factor that determines the maximum level of "enhancement"-alike you can use; spread around your awesomeness, and you'll have a bunch of lower-tier ones for your level, but focus it all on one and you might have one bit of "gear" (enhancement-alike or whatever) that's actually beyond what a PC of your level is expected to have, but the rest of your stuff is going to suffer for it.

This might require having the ability to freely unslot your powers, which may have its own pitfalls, though.

[blacksly]

That is an awesome idea.

[JaguarX]

Hm. I wonder if having some sort of limited resource that made it so you could have only certain "amounts" of "I.O."-equivalents on a given character would help with that. Not completely solve it, but help.

Call it "awesomeness," and you have to have a certain amount of it for every I.O. you want to have equipped. You gain more "awesomeness" as you level, of course, and maybe that's something you continue to gain through "levels" even if everything else about leveling up stops being meaningful. Or maybe it's something you can get through "endgame advancement" in a non-leveling sense. But there's no "you have to be 100% I.O.s or you stink" because that's still further you have to progress beyond max. level to be ABLE to have "all" I.O.s all the time. Maybe we could even use awesomeness as our factor that determines the maximum level of "enhancement"-alike you can use; spread around your awesomeness, and you'll have a bunch of lower-tier ones for your level, but focus it all on one and you might have one bit of "gear" (enhancement-alike or whatever) that's actually beyond what a PC of your level is expected to have, but the rest of your stuff is going to suffer for it.

This might require having the ability to freely unslot your powers, which may have its own pitfalls, though.

sounds interesting.

[0nehanklap]

sounds interesting.

Actually, sounds like diminishing returns.

[Blondeshell]

Call it "awesomeness,"...

This guy might have some ideas about the best way to implement it.

[Segev]

Actually, sounds like diminishing returns.

Not really.

Diminishing returns said that the more of the same kind of enhancement (broad categories - damage, defense, cooldown reduction, etc.) you slotted into the same power, the less effect each new enhancement of that type had.

This concept would be more like saying you can have only up to a certain amount of "awesomeness" from all of your enhancements combined, across all of your powers. You can, if you have them, spread this "awesomeness" around to whatever enhancements you like, but having a full suite of purple I.O.s won't help you be better than the guy who has only one or two purple I.O.s unless you have enough "awesomeness" to "power" all of them. If you both have the same amount of "awesomeness" and he's got two fully-powered purple I.O.s and is fully spending his awesomeness on his other enhancements of lesser (but still roughly level-appropriate) quality, and you have a full suite of purple I.O.s, all this really gives you is more freedom to choose which two purple I.O.s you'll use. You still only can fully power two. Or maybe 3, if you use practically nothing of roughly level-appropriate power for your other enhancements.

[Manga]

World of Warcraft has something similar to that.  It's called Gear Level or Armor Level or something like that, and it can only be raised by obtaining higher level gear (through raids, grinding through boring content, etc).  While the gear level itself does not limit what kind of gear you can use directly, it still kind of does - because there's a minimum gear level for the content you need to get better gear.

And there lies the problem with that.  People were just complaining above about the problem of teams restricting who can join by what enhancements they have.  If you add a statistic like that, you're making it even easier for them to do so (in WoW it's pretty commom for teams to restrict teammates by gear level - often a higher one than is required).

What you could do instead is make it so the standard enhancements that drop in the game will benefit from "awesomeness" but the crafted or real money purchased ones will not.  That's how you balance the game so the advanced enhancements can either be purchased or earned.  You can either spend a ton of in-game or real money building/buying the enhancements and get an early jump, or you can do loads of content and missions and get a similar boost for free...eventually.  And no one in the game will know which path you took to get there unless you tell them.  Of course advanced enhancements can have different boosts than can be earned, but overall you can become just as powerful without the crafting/spending real money.

[thunderforce]

If we have a system like CoH where enhancements have no huge impact on overall performance, I have no issue.

Uh... enhancements certainly, very definitely did. I figure even my cheap Frankenslotted builds doubled character effectiveness relative to SOs, and the top-tier builds were enormously more effective; whatever you did with SOs, blasters were squishies, but IOs could turn them into tank-mages - you'll find people on these very forums talking about how they'd survive teamwipes on 8-hero teams, and advocating strongly that being able to grind out that sort of munchkin build is a good thing.

I think it's a fundamental question for any of the successor projects; will that be possible, or will you get some sort of diminishing-returns effect where the game will always be challenging? Sadly, I suspect the market favours the former.