Do we have a plan for if....

[Waffles]

We fire up the emulator and NCsoftdicks decide to close it down? Besides the shotgun approach.

[JaguarX]

Hope they have a plan because it would suck to say "hey look I get to play again." a few months later "Hey what happened? Don't tell me I lost my characters...again."
Then have to wait another 3-4 years for someone else to build another server.

[Quinch]

From what I can tell, that's the main reason the emulator efforts are being held under wraps - given NCsoft's reaction to Tabula Rasa servers, it's a fair guess they'll do the same to CoH. Unless they decide that a CoH emulator would work to the detriment of official competition in the form of TPP.

Either way, odds are they'll be playing it safe until it's too late to suppress the developed code.

[JaguarX]

From what I can tell, that's the main reason the emulator efforts are being held under wraps - given NCsoft's reaction to Tabula Rasa servers, it's a fair guess they'll do the same to CoH. Unless they decide that a CoH emulator would work to the detriment of official competition in the form of TPP.

Either way, odds are they'll be playing it safe until it's too late to suppress the developed code.

Yup.

Hopefully they have a very intensive knowledge  of how to cover their tracks for the people that let it go and those that spread it.

In this day and age everything can be tracked and traced to point of origin, even proxies are not safe bet as they even store the actual IP address as it enter their server. More of a just in case matter because they may not even take it any further or bother.
And there isn't many countries that isn't in IP treaty with the US in some way or fashion.

 And many of those that are not, a private server and a lawsuit is the least of the worries if they manage there.



People may speed and get away with it even though it's illegal but it probably wouldn't be wise to go to the court house every day and say you been booking through a school zone doing 100mph. Even though they probably wont or cant arrest you then, it does put a spotlight on ya. and can come back to bite when ya if ya get caught.

Which reminds me of something happened around here about 4 years ago. There was this flea market and of course you have your standard bootleg dvd sales guys there. Many been selling bootlegs since the days of VHS. One day, this guy walked to the booth and asked "Are you selling these." and not suspecting anything the bootleg dvd guy went through his usual speech of good quality, cheap, wont be disappointed. The guy replied "oh really? You're under arrest. You havea right to remain silent..." and before anyone knew the guy was being hauled away in handcuffs. Apparently the guy that inquired was an undercover. bootleg guy spent 1.5 years in jail. On top of that, the owner of the flea market got sued. Ended up losing $250,000 not including lawyer fees. After a hit like that he ended up closing the market. Eventually the land got razed and they built a walmart in it's place. Legend has it Walmart was behind the entire thing as they been wanting to buy that property for ages and the flea market guy refused to sell. The point is the bootlegger been getting away with it for years, many bootleggers came and gone without once getting caught but that day, that time, that one time, he got caught. To this day I still see him roaming the street because he cant even get a job with record now in the field he know. Sales. He cant go to school because he has no more money to learn a new field.

[Quinch]

Maybe - but I honestly doubt they can do more than issue a C&D to the development crew. So far the only news I can pull up about lawsuits being thrown at private server owners are large, for-profit ones.

So on the whole, it sounds like an empty threat.

[JaguarX]

Maybe - but I honestly doubt they can do more than issue a C&D to the development crew. So far the only news I can pull up about lawsuits being thrown at private server owners are large, for-profit ones.

So on the whole, it sounds like an empty threat.

of course.
because only the big ones make the news. No one cares if some kid in a small apartment get sued, news wise. But get a large private server ring, news will be heard about it.

Kind of like only about a very small percentage of murders, kidnappings and drug cases make the news, but the jails are filled with people who name never even hit the local paper back page. Hell, some murders only make the news because after a while someone makes a fuss about it and it gains attention of other people or they know someone with the right connections.

Car wrecks happen just about every second, someone had a major wreck. Very few hit the news. But plane go down, it's breaking news. Thus more people are afraid to fly than drive even though the greater chance of serious injury stat wise is driving a car. 


Usually companies have legal departments that they pay salary to. They usually are not sitting around twiddling thumbs waiting to sue some other multi billion dollar company every few years. On a day to day bases, they are usually busy with small stuff lawsuits and C&Ds that majority of the public never hears about because it don't hit the major news.

[HEATSTROKE]

 I think its going to be a long time before we see an emulator.

[Ohioknight]

... bootleg guy spent 1.5 years in jail.

... Legend has it Walmart was behind the entire thing as they been wanting to buy that property for ages and the flea market guy refused to sell.

... To this day I still see him roaming the street because he cant even get a job with record now in the field he know. Sales.

#1 -- There is, in this world, a flea market guy who wouldn't sell his lot to Walmart? 

#2 -- You know a guy who sold bootlegs in a flea market who DIDN'T ALREADY have a prison record?

#3 -- After getting out of prison, bootlegger guy can't find a comparable job in flea market bootleg sales??

[JaguarX]

#1 -- There is, in this world, a flea market guy who wouldn't sell his lot to Walmart? 

#2 -- You know a guy who sold bootlegs in a flea market who DIDN'T ALREADY have a prison record?

#3 -- After getting out of prison, bootlegger guy can't find a comparable job in flea market bootleg sales??

Of course he could but no he didn't have a record, not all of them do believe it or not. And I think it was more being afraid of getting caught than anything.

and yea a flea market guy that didn't want to sell his land. Not every one like or care for walmart. Even out side this city, many places petition to prevent from Walmart from building a store in their town, some win some don't.

[Waffles]

Yup.

Hopefully they have a very intensive knowledge  of how to cover their tracks for the people that let it go and those that spread it.

In this day and age everything can be tracked and traced to point of origin, even proxies are not safe bet as they even store the actual IP address as it enter their server. More of a just in case matter because they may not even take it any further or bother.
And there isn't many countries that isn't in IP treaty with the US in some way or fashion.

 And many of those that are not, a private server and a lawsuit is the least of the worries if they manage there.



People may speed and get away with it even though it's illegal but it probably wouldn't be wise to go to the court house every day and say you been booking through a school zone doing 100mph. Even though they probably wont or cant arrest you then, it does put a spotlight on ya. and can come back to bite when ya if ya get caught.

Which reminds me of something happened around here about 4 years ago. There was this flea market and of course you have your standard bootleg dvd sales guys there. Many been selling bootlegs since the days of VHS. One day, this guy walked to the booth and asked "Are you selling these." and not suspecting anything the bootleg dvd guy went through his usual speech of good quality, cheap, wont be disappointed. The guy replied "oh really? You're under arrest. You havea right to remain silent..." and before anyone knew the guy was being hauled away in handcuffs. Apparently the guy that inquired was an undercover. bootleg guy spent 1.5 years in jail. On top of that, the owner of the flea market got sued. Ended up losing $250,000 not including lawyer fees. After a hit like that he ended up closing the market. Eventually the land got razed and they built a walmart in it's place. Legend has it Walmart was behind the entire thing as they been wanting to buy that property for ages and the flea market guy refused to sell. The point is the bootlegger been getting away with it for years, many bootleggers came and gone without once getting caught but that day, that time, that one time, he got caught. To this day I still see him roaming the street because he cant even get a job with record now in the field he know. Sales. He cant go to school because he has no more money to learn a new field.

Forgive me, but http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OSX79BG19c

[JaguarX]

Forgive me, but http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OSX79BG19c

Reality.

You know, something that should be considered when trying to pull off a possible crime?

[Noyjitat]

Once we get one going losing characters won't be an issue. You can have the server operator provide a backup area to copy the data for you to import and just give that to whomever the new host would be. Fuck ncsoft

[Tacitala]

Once we get one going losing characters won't be an issue.

Especially if people remember to save them with Sentinel

[JaguarX]

Once we get one going losing characters won't be an issue. You can have the server operator provide a backup area to copy the data for you to import and just give that to whomever the new host would be. pancake ncsoft

cool beans.

As long as the server operators talk to each other and are on the same page, at least mostly.

[Golden Girl]

I think that any C&D is more likely to come from Cryptic, as they'd probably be more concerned about their engine being passed around the net than NCsoft would be about an unused IP being shared out.

[TonyV]

We fire up the emulator and NCsoftdicks decide to close it down? Besides the shotgun approach.

Whoa, now, no one is talking about shotguns here.  I cannot condone that kind of violence.

[dwturducken]

I assumed the shotguns were figurative, just like actual "shotgun weddings" rarely include actual shotguns, anymore. I take issue with this particular mutation of NC$oft's name. It's still a family-friendly forum, here, but I'm not a moderator.

[saipaman]

I think that any C&D is more likely to come from Cryptic, as they'd probably be more concerned about their engine being passed around the net than NCsoft would be about an unused IP being shared out.

I wonder how valuable that engine is to Cryptic?

[Golden Girl]

I wonder how valuable that engine is to Cryptic?

I think that depends on how much of it was used in CO, STO and Neverwinter.

[JanessaVR]

I think that any C&D is more likely to come from Cryptic, as they'd probably be more concerned about their engine being passed around the net than NCsoft would be about an unused IP being shared out.

Incorrect.  It's not their engine anymore - NCSoft purchased everything lock, stock, and barrel - the engine and the IP.  Cryptic would have nothing to say about it.

[Golden Girl]

Incorrect.  It's not their engine anymore - NCSoft purchased everything lock, stock, and barrel - the engine and the IP.  Cryptic would have nothing to say about it.

As far as I know, NCsoft only purchased a lifetime license on the engine for CoH, plus one other project - NCsoft weren't granted the ability to freely redistribute the engine.

[LadyVamp]

Actually, so long as no one uses any of nc's code, they're safe from that lawsuit.  If nc does sue, pull out the old case of att vs bsdi.  The ruling from the judge caused a change in the development of code.  bsdi lost (and went out of business) but that's because they used the att code.  Had they removed att's code and wrote their own that did the same thing, they'd be fine.  It's that very reason freebsd, netbsd, openbsd and other bsd derived projects are safe from att's lawyers.  So the story goes many of the bsd developers are ex-bsdi employees.

I'd more concerned they will go after the players using the coh client to connect to an emulator.  They won't take any action until the emulator is running if they do in either case.

Of course the back end could be placed in a country that has no problems telling Koreans to take a long walk off a short pier.

[JaguarX]

Actually, so long as no one uses any of their code, they're safe from that lawsuit.  If nc does sue, pull out the old case of att vs bsdi.  The ruling from the judge caused a change in the development of code.  bsdi lost (and went out of business) but that's because they used the att code.  Had they removed att's code and wrote their own that did the same thing, they'd be fine.  It's that very reason freebsd, netbsd, openbsd and other bsd derived projects are safe from att's lawyers.  So the story goes many of the bsd developers are ex-bsdi employees.

I'd more concerned they will go after the players using the coh client to connect to an emulator.  They won't take any action until the emulator is running if they do in either case.

Of course the back end could be placed in a country that has no problems telling Koreans to take a long walk off a short pier.

And even that isn't an Ace  in the hole. A lot of laws dealing with software have been introduced since 1992. Make sure to know the updates prior to going in too. Nothing takes the wind out the sails faster than pulling out a 1992 case then the other side pull out a more in depth more relative case that is more recent.

And lot of time dealing with the legal system in the realm of software and IP, it's like COX RNG. Depends sometimes a lot on the judge and what is presented in the case. In front of another judge or with different material for the case, bsdi might of won. That is why there are many cases in that realm that went either way.

But like any case, the basics is preparation. Go in there with chest poked out as if untouchable, and opponent is stupid, end up walking out deflated lighter in the wallet.

[CoyoteSeven]

I have a plan. Attack!

[saipaman]

I think I'd really enjoy CO if the visuals weren't so hideous.  I swear that I get a headache every time I play for more than 15 minutes.

[dwturducken]

Of course the back end could be placed in a country that has no problems telling Koreans to take a long walk off a short pier.

This seems like a good idea on the surface, but you have to be careful. A lot of countries that have loose copyright laws also have loose everything else laws. There's an inherent lack of stability built into that. It's not all African countries, though. China goes the other way: copyright is loose, but the controls over what you can do with internet access are rigid. Former Eastern Bloc countries are hit or miss, as economic stability is an issue.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, nor am I trying to deflate optimism, but this is probably best saved as an absolute last resort.

[Cobra Man]

I think its going to be a long time before we see an emulator.

This.

City of Titans looks to be the best way forward IMHO.

[Thunder Glove]

I think I'd really enjoy CO if the visuals weren't so hideous.  I swear that I get a headache every time I play for more than 15 minutes.

I think I'd enjoy CO if it actually ran at 60 frames per second rather than at a rate of one frame every one or two seconds.  I almost re-subscribed last week, but then I logged into my Silver account and played for an hour, and the framerate was terrible.

As for CoT... well, I'm worried it'll have the same problem as CO, especially since "native Mac version at launch" is a stretch goal that they haven't reached yet.

[mikenovember]

I think that any C&D is more likely to come from Cryptic, as they'd probably be more concerned about their engine being passed around the net than NCsoft would be about an unused IP being shared out.

Most likely, if NCSoft has any brains at all (which may be doubtful... but let's play 'let's pretend')...

NCSoft will allow servers to go up, and they'll allow people to get on board.  The more the merrier.  NCsoft knows that suing for the value of an outdated IP is going to get them minimal income.  No, they'll wait. 

Because for each and every person who plays on the system they can levy a valuation of lost revenue based on the illegal use of their IP.  And then they'll valuate the actual IP as 80 million or so - whatever that insane offer was they through out there.  And they'll say that all those people playing on the Emulator are proof that the IP has that potential, and use the actual logs against you to show they have been damaged.  In this way, it's not just a question of 'did someone violate the law' but 'did they violate the law and were there damages'. 

Then if they really want to be mean - then they'll drag NCSoft into it by listing them as a 'friendly party also damaged' and so on... they will demand damages, and so on. 

That's how you'd do that if you're smart.  If you're stupid, or you don't actually care, or if you just want to protect your IP then you issue a Cease and Desist.  Because that's cheap - it's basically a letter from some guy you pay on retainer to send out the letter.  Costs you basically nothing.  Most people freak when they see something from a law firm and comply.     

But, if your goal is to actually be evil and put a stop to something you don't just send a letter - you drop a legal nuke.  For that you need to make sure you're going to win before you sue.  The easiest way to do that is to prove damages in advance.   Let's face it, if  you're playing on an emulator they already have you red handed for using the IP without their permission.  The hard part is getting the judge not to laugh you out of court for wasting everyone's time on a law suit no one gets anything from.   

[LadyVamp]

And even that isn't an Ace  in the hole. A lot of laws dealing with software have been introduced since 1992. Make sure to know the updates prior to going in too. Nothing takes the wind out the sails faster than pulling out a 1992 case then the other side pull out a more in depth more relative case that is more recent.

And lot of time dealing with the legal system in the realm of software and IP, it's like COX RNG. Depends sometimes a lot on the judge and what is presented in the case. In front of another judge or with different material for the case, bsdi might of won. That is why there are many cases in that realm that went either way.

But like any case, the basics is preparation. Go in there with chest poked out as if untouchable, and opponent is stupid, end up walking out deflated lighter in the wallet.

Granted.  legal system doesn't always get the best outcome but even an old case sets precedence.  I wouldn't walk in without substantially more if I were a lawyer but as I'm not I prefer to leave the actual battle to them.

That's a case I happen to remember.  had that case not happened or had it gone the other way, we might not even have linux much less the level of success it has enjoyed.

[LadyVamp]

This seems like a good idea on the surface, but you have to be careful. A lot of countries that have loose copyright laws also have loose everything else laws. There's an inherent lack of stability built into that. It's not all African countries, though. China goes the other way: copyright is loose, but the controls over what you can do with internet access are rigid. Former Eastern Bloc countries are hit or miss, as economic stability is an issue.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, nor am I trying to deflate optimism, but this is probably best saved as an absolute last resort.

Oh I entirely agree that it would be a last choice.  I'd prefer having a like game that's different enough to survive any legal challenges in a first world country.  ncsoft is just one challenger.  patent trolls are another.

[Mandrake]

With how far Icon has come, and how talented the coders are here, I don't think it will take nearly as long as a lot of people think to reverse engineer the server side. It will take time, but it is not going to be your typical 8 years or more like some emu projects out there. I'm talking out of my butt because I have no inside information here, but from the projects I have worked on - none of them have the client side ability to do what Icon is doing. Therefore that means the client is handling a HUGE portion of the overhead and the server is mainly performing world location and update checks on entities and objects. Including user interactions and databases.

I is a daunting task no matter what, but the client side being so much more mature than the other projects I've worked on makes me much more optimistic of the 'new' engine's timeline.

And, yes I'm alive. Just been gone a while for uncomfortable reasons. Great to see that all sorts of things are still on track and some really bursting at the seams!

Take care,
Manny

[JaguarX]

Granted.  legal system doesn't always get the best outcome but even an old case sets precedence.  I wouldn't walk in without substantially more if I were a lawyer but as I'm not I prefer to leave the actual battle to them.

That's a case I happen to remember.  had that case not happened or had it gone the other way, we might not even have linux much less the level of success it has enjoyed.

Indeed.
And many people give too much emphasis on the outcome and think, "Well Pineapple Software (for example) won, and my case is similar, so that means I should win hands down." And forget and or ignore cases where it went the other way and forget or don't pay attention to how that outcome was reached, the most important part of when studying cases. Sometimes more important than the actual outcome. Sometimes cases get thrown out simply because one side simply didn't show enough, not that their case wasn't valid. Think news and articles going to report why? Rarely. It report it like a sports stat. Pineapple won, Cigar Smoking Big Wigs Inc. lost. And then people assume that means Pineapple was completely undeniable right while CSBW Inc was totally wrong. And any case like Pineapple will automatically win. When 99.4% of the time it was way more complicated than a simple win vs loss, who was right who was wrong when in reality right or wrong have nothing to do with majority of the outcomes and it's more of what can one prove. The one that prove their case better ends up with the favor, right or wrong in reality.


 Many rely on news sources that report the outcome or give a brief over view and think that is it, when it's imperative to study the actual court documents and study multiple cases and see how each ended up at their respective judgments.
Sometimes it takes even looking at the judgment history of the judges as some are innate conservative, some are more liberal, some love big businesses some despise them, some don't give a rat's tail about gamers and think they are cancer of society, and some think small indy gamers are being taken advantage of.
Even with some laws in place now, rarely do the even all of the Supreme court judges all agree on implementation and or interpretation of the law.

[Ironwolf]

NCSoft will defend their IP - if it is in their best interests.

You see if no one is making money from the IP and they are only holding the IP and otherwise the game is dead and in no development....they may not persue it. It might be hard to show actual damage if no one is selling anything.

[JaguarX]

NCSoft will defend their IP - if it is in their best interests.

You see if no one is making money from the IP and they are only holding the IP and otherwise the game is dead and in no development....they may not persue it. It might be hard to show actual damage if no one is selling anything.

yeah

[AlabasterKnight]

The longer it rests in its shallow grave, the less value it has.
There's your food for thought.

[JaguarX]

yeah.

Anyone remember AMC?  Maybe some older folks.

Chrysler owns them still now. Yet there haven't been a AMC product to roll off the line since Jeep Grand Wagoneer.

Someone could build say, an AMC Gremlin in their garage using what ever parts they want. Hell they use all Chevy parts and put Gremlin badges everywhere. Chrysler probably wont give a crap. They could even sell the car they built as a Gremlin to people and still Chrysler wont give a crap. But start the manufacturing of AMC Gremlins and making money off of it, Chrysler probably will sue and probably win, even though they haven't personally used AMC in ages and even longer for the Gremlin name. How much is AMC worth now? who knows. Chrysler could claim they had plans in the year 2019 to sell it for 108 million but the bootleg corroded the exclusive rights value of it by what ever their accounts come up with.

There is a reason why companies are a bit vague if any information at all about what they do with the rights of discontinued products. The value is two prong, what the seller want to sell it for and how much people want it. If Google and Disney successfully approach NCSOFT with an offer, even if NCSOFT turns it downs, that is paper work and shows that the IP is still very valuable, thanks to us.

[dwturducken]

AMC isn't the best analogy. The purchase was expressly for the Jeep brand, which is still in production. The AMC cars at the time were replaced with new models, partly from Renault and Mitsubishi, and the marque rebranded as Eagle. The cars weren't very good and didn't sell very well. Without looking it up, I can't really go into further detail, but it wasn't that AMC was bought to bury the competition.

I would also point out that many cases where this sort of purchase takes place, it works out well for the acquired property. Alan Moore originally wanted to use the recently acquired Carlton Comics characters for his Watchmen series. Thankfully, DC didn't let him, because they would have been virtually unusable for a decade. And, we got Blue Beetle and Captain Atom, among others, into the Justice League!

[JaguarX]

AMC isn't the best analogy. The purchase was expressly for the Jeep brand, which is still in production. The AMC cars at the time were replaced with new models, partly from Renault and Mitsubishi, and the marque rebranded as Eagle. The cars weren't very good and didn't sell very well. Without looking it up, I can't really go into further detail, but it wasn't that AMC was bought to bury the competition.

I would also point out that many cases where this sort of purchase takes place, it works out well for the acquired property. Alan Moore originally wanted to use the recently acquired Carlton Comics characters for his Watchmen series. Thankfully, DC didn't let him, because they would have been virtually unusable for a decade. And, we got Blue Beetle and Captain Atom, among others, into the Justice League!

I wasn't using it as an example of buying to bury the competition. I was using it as example of sometimes even things that haven't been actively used in ages doesn't mean it's free game to pirate and that a company wont or will automatically lose because they are not at that moment using it or express their plan to use directly to the person doing the pirating. And as I said, if they do their own thing, more than likely no one will care but when it comes to the point they pirate to fatten their own pockets, that would probably gain the attention, whether it's in use currently or not.

Thus as I said, regardless of the reason Chrysler purchased them for, if some one was to try and take their AMC rights as their own and make money, they probably wont get too far compared to just building a few in their garage for personal use.

[dwturducken]

Sorry. I think I missed some nuance in there.

Makes me wonder if someone could have gone to Chrysler back in 2008 and offered to buy the AMC brand, tho.

[JaguarX]

Makes me wonder if someone could have gone to Chrysler back in 2008 and offered to buy the AMC brand, tho.

Great possibility. It's still possible to this day if you ask Fiat now I think.

[dwturducken]

Maybe. It would probably take more, now, though. They were really hurting for cash 5 years ago. Without Jeep attached, I could probably get away with a "Pick 4" lottery ticket.

[LadyVamp]

Not sure I'd buy them.  Every company that has owned Jeep has gone down the tubes.  Kaiser, AMC and now Chrysler.  Guess Fiat is next.  Scary really since Fiat Co owns Ferrari with the Italian gov't (which also partly owns Fiat).  All that's left of Kaiser is their insurance arm.  Of course, Jeep survives just fine 

Then again Feruccio might like that if the story about his wife's Ferrari is correct.

[JaguarX]

Not sure I'd buy them.  Every company that has owned Jeep has gone down the tubes.  Kaiser, AMC and now Chrysler.  Guess Fiat is next.  Scary really since Fiat Co owns Ferrari with the Italian gov't (which also partly owns Fiat).  All that's left of Kaiser is their insurance arm.  Of course, Jeep survives just fine 

Then again Feruccio might like that if the story about his wife's Ferrari is correct.

You know, I just thought about that and realize, it's true. Every company that ended up with Jeep since it's creation ended up not doing so hot.

But I think Fiat will be ok. They over all build a variety of cars from gas sippers that never touched American Soil, to executive sedans like Maserati, to various other shares of stuff, to the legendary Ferrari. If anything they probably simply drop Chrysler like a bad habit like that famous three point star German company did.

But the SUV craze is over as gas prices will continue to rise, and SUVs never sold well in Europe and most people in Europe that can afford to gas up a SUV, usually go for the smaller Euro types or Range Rover line.

But Jeep is planning on building a Jeep that rivals Escalade in luxury appointments and bringing back the Grand Wagoneer name plate. Will people spend 70,000-85,000 on a Jeep?

[dwturducken]

People pay that for a Range Rover, or more for a Land Rover, because it has (or at least had) iconic styling and was decently comfortable. Of course, it's the original "Chelsea Tractor," but that's at least an area where the four wheel drive will get used. In the Des Moines, Iowa area, Hummers were surprisingly common, and they rarely got dirty, let alone went off road. There is still a class of person who is going to buy something because they want it and can afford it, and they don't care what other people think.

I was really hoping I could figure out a way to bring that back on topic, but I kinda wrote myself too far afield. We are somewhat like that, though, given the current state of the Kickstarter. Not that we are all rolling in pile of money, but we are passionate about our favorite toy, and we don't care what people think. That's why we'll do anything to bring it back.

(That wasn't as clumsy as a blind man in a hoarder's house or anything...)

[JaguarX]

People pay that for a Range Rover, or more for a Land Rover, because it has (or at least had) iconic styling and was decently comfortable. Of course, it's the original "Chelsea Tractor," but that's at least an area where the four wheel drive will get used. In the Des Moines, Iowa area, Hummers were surprisingly common, and they rarely got dirty, let alone went off road. There is still a class of person who is going to buy something because they want it and can afford it, and they don't care what other people think.

I was really hoping I could figure out a way to bring that back on topic, but I kinda wrote myself too far afield. We are somewhat like that, though, given the current state of the Kickstarter. Not that we are all rolling in pile of money, but we are passionate about our favorite toy, and we don't care what people think. That's why we'll do anything to bring it back.

(That wasn't as clumsy as a blind man in a hoarder's house or anything...)

Of course cant worry about what other's think...unless the stated purpose is to take into consideration of what people think. But either way even if a Hummer driver don't care what other's think doesn't mean is going to go to the next Tree Hugger convention and do doughnuts in the parking lot all day to bring attention to himself. Then that in it self shows that they actually care about what others think and want them to be shocked. If they truly didn't care, they wouldn't go out of their way at all. Like some say they don't care about NCSOFT but out the other side of their mouth they want to build private server to "shove it in their face and revenge". And like the HUmmer driver who probably increase his chances of someone calling the police acting a fool and chances of going to jail, when it gets to the point where it's all about being vindictive and hatred, it usually doesn't end well for the person trying to get back which end up in a back fire and more hate and vindictive until that is all they can think about.

If someone want a "version of the game"  build it and as long as it's kept quiet and not purposely trying to mock the owner "Ha ha see we have your property, we stole it. Ha ha.", the owner probably wont even notice. But mock them and try to rub their face in it, then in a way they have no choice. They must show people cant get away publically with it, and now they have red handed They knew they was stealing and did it anyways." which irks most judges when someone do something even iffy and think the laws do not apply to them and poke fun at the victim. Like two people steal an object out of a house. One steals disappears the other steals and keep calling the victim teasing them about how easy it was to steal, and they did it because they can, and dare them to do something. Both thieves get caught. Which on probably will get the harsher sentence? The first on might even get off with probation. The other one probably will get the book thrown at them.