Author Topic: Attempting to extract information  (Read 9272 times)

Joshex

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Attempting to extract information
« on: July 28, 2013, 06:05:08 PM »
So..

I think maybe we've been a little rough on NCSoft, honestly, we don't know the full story, and that has been bothering me for some time.

today I just sent out a pleasant email to NCSoft headquarters asking for information regarding the legal issues and outstanding lawsuits that they say were the cause for the shutdown of city of heroes.

honestly, I think that may be the reason they took it down, and probably the reason why paragon studios and them could not come to an agreement on terms of sale of the IP. Also it could possibly be the reason why we havn't heard anything back from disney or google, and why disney practically stonewalled us when we started sending letters.

if my hunch is correct there may have been lawsuits that are not shown on thier financial reports. yeah CoX might have made 12 mil a year but the losses from lawsuits wouldn't show on it's earnings reports, it would show in losses in the company's budget as a whole.

and that makes me wonder what if there was some sort of abuse going on? what if it got so bad it was the straw that broke the camel's back?

I'm only speculating (till I get more information) but I suspect there were multiple companies with active lawsuits against NCSoft due to copyright and trademark infringement as well as other things.

I suspect the straw that broke the camel's back might have been abuse by players who found an exploit that they could continually sue NCSoft for and win (making money off of NCSoft, AKA easy millions). I don't know what that might be, but if it were true I could see how that would incline NCSoft to shut down the game, especially if the one person who was doing it told other people and they started doing it as well.

it could be somethng as simple as 'likeness rights' "I look like that character, you owe me money every month now so long as the game is active!"

I also have a looming notion in the back of my mind that several of the companies sueing NCSoft over CoX might have been Marvel/Disney and DC. and I also have a bit of paranoia that even cryptic might have some sort of legal claim agianst NCSoft because of CoX, a claim that may have been started because cryptic wanted to kill the competition for it's next title Champions.

I alwasy found it odd how cryptic made champions after selling City to NCSoft. I can almost hear the developers "heh, yeah sure we'll sell you CoX, we can always just make another superhero MMO game"

I know, it's alot of bad conspiracy theories, but the fact is We just don't know what the legal disputes are. So I sent an email to ask what they are.

My goal here is once we find out what the disputes are we can work together to pursuade and negotiate with those involved to have some mercy and a heart.

I have a feeling if we can successfully nullify the legal disputes over CoX then NCSoft will see no reason to keep City Shut down.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Omega Mark V

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2013, 06:51:01 PM »
You never know what exactly is happening behind the closed doors of business practice; we couldn't get information from the devs earlier due to their NDA with NCSoft.

There may have been lawsuits, but I doubt that Cryptic would sue it's own game, even if Paragon Studios owned it. Marvel/Disney would make a little more sense.

I hope your endeavors find something!
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Aggelakis

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2013, 07:29:05 PM »
NCsoft never said anything about legal issues causing the closure. They never said ANYTHING about what caused the closure. There were some rumors of lawsuits, and rumors of legal stuff, but this is standard fare for Joshex to assume that rumor = truth.

BTW, you are not going to get a response unless it's by someone who's looking to get fired.
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JaguarX

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2013, 07:37:56 PM »
 Just about any reason outside of what little they stated is speculation and rumor and guesses even if their reason was valid or not. Cant tell. Not enough info.

I'm starting to think they wanted it that way. No matter what reason people create it cant be substantiated beyond mere speculation rumors and guesses even if someone did just happen to guess the real reason. Which probably is stranger than fiction and outside what most people believe so even if someone guessed the true reason, no one would believe it anyways.
Hopefully one day we'll know for sure but it seems unlikely anytime soon.

Joshex

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2013, 09:08:48 PM »
NCsoft never said anything about legal issues causing the closure. They never said ANYTHING about what caused the closure. There were some rumors of lawsuits, and rumors of legal stuff, but this is standard fare for Joshex to assume that rumor = truth.

BTW, you are not going to get a response unless it's by someone who's looking to get fired.

I assume rumors might be true, not that they are true. there is never harm in that.

thats something I've learned in this world, it's more dangerous to ignore rumors completely.

seems so long ago I learned that lesson, allow me to indulge you in it; you know those times where out of the corner of your eye you thought you saw something, but when you looked it was gone? or how about those times when you thought you heard something and your mind instantly rejected it saying "nah, it couldn't be" ? I learned long ago, trust your initial senses. this carrys into every aspect of life from politics to business, if you suspect it to be true then theres no harm in being cautious and investigating it.

whats even better is if you start investigating it and people start trying to obstruct your path, thats when you know theres something they are hiding and your hunch was correct. of coarse lets hope it doesn't come to that, cause the only way to go from there is to actually start snooping around and gathering evidence. then you gotta hope some sick cult isn't in charge of the governents of the world and purposefully hid this information thinking no one would be smart enough to go looking for it.

paranoia? we are defenseless without it. but don't jump to conclusions, thats an interesting notion from Sir arthur conan doyle, Sherlock holms was a subliminal and written message about that very aspect. Don't jump to conclusions, but Suspect everything until proven wrong.

I seem to remember the official NCSoft shutdown text contained business terminology referencing some form of legal altercation as one of the issues that enhanced thier decision to shut the game down.

luckily I think my previous Idea about it being a government conspiracy to stop heroic games in shadow of an impending totalitarian take over of the world is now less probable but still suspicious. this world is complex afterall it has lots and lots of people whose to say CoX wasn't taken down for more than 1 reason from more than 1 perspective? meh I think I'll continue with the whole lawsuit theory.

if NCSoft is reading this, they should know that if there were any legal issues it would be in thier best interest to tell us now that we've requested it. because that will make them look like a victim of whoever is prosecuting them. then the media will be very helpful at a later time to damn anyone who hardheartedly and greedily says "no I wont give up my lawsuit against CoX" and that shame and damning from the media will wear at their mind and eventually make them consider giving in to the request of dropping thier lawsuit.

heh, media can be more powerful than government at times. just look at the zimmerman case  :roll:

Just about any reason outside of what little they stated is speculation and rumor and guesses even if their reason was valid or not. Cant tell. Not enough info.

I'm starting to think they wanted it that way. No matter what reason people create it cant be substantiated beyond mere speculation rumors and guesses even if someone did just happen to guess the real reason. Which probably is stranger than fiction and outside what most people believe so even if someone guessed the true reason, no one would believe it anyways.
Hopefully one day we'll know for sure but it seems unlikely anytime soon.

the US governemnt lives off of this aspect of unbelievability.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 01:58:49 AM by Joshex »
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

The Fifth Horseman

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2013, 10:46:05 PM »
I suspect the straw that broke the camel's back might have been abuse by players who found an exploit that they could continually sue NCSoft for and win (making money off of NCSoft, AKA easy millions). I don't know what that might be, but if it were true I could see how that would incline NCSoft to shut down the game, especially if the one person who was doing it told other people and they started doing it as well.
No such thing as far as I know. And easy millions? Yeah, right. NCSoft kind of has a legal department.

Quote
it could be somethng as simple as 'likeness rights' "I look like that character, you owe me money every month now so long as the game is active!"
Jack Thompson tried that once, before he got disbarred. He was laughed out.
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LadyVamp

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2013, 11:06:13 PM »
Most anything is possible, and we'll never truly know why NCSoft chose to close CoH.  One thing though, if lawsuits was the problem then that would be in their financial statements even if it was a note on page 78 (or whatever page) near the back of the financials that nobody reads.  Not to state ongoing litigation would be fraudulent.  While I'm not law expert I am an investor and before I invest in any company I want to know about all outstanding lawsuits even if they expect to break even or win.  I'm also no expert on Korean accounting practices or their laws, but I suspect Korea's version of the SEC would have problems with financials missing such information.

My guess is a cost/benefits analysis was done on modernizing the game and the numbers showed that there wouldn't be enough profits.  They probably also determined the hardware supporting the game needed updating and they decided what profits the game did bring weren't enough to justify updates.  What qualifies as "enough profits" is up to the leadership in NCSoft.  Not what you or I might think.  If it were up to us, we'd be beating the snot out of praetorians right about now.
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JaguarX

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2013, 11:12:20 PM »
  What qualifies as "enough profits" is up to the leadership in NCSoft.  Not what you or I might think.  If it were up to us, we'd be beating the snot out of praetorians right about now.

Sad but true.

For me- 10 million a year? yes please.

to them possibly- "pffft pennies not worth bothering with. Get rid of it."

SOrt of like if someone offered Kobe who is said to probably make just north of 90,000 a quarter next season, to show up at kid birthday party with the reason being it would improve his image and people would like him more but offer $10,000 for 45 min. Now many people think and would not hesitate to grab that job for that "large amount of money for only 45 min of "work". But Kobe may or may not entertain the idea even though it's $10,000 that he didn't have and could earn. To him the $10,000 may not even be worth the effort to him even though others would fight tooth blood nails to get that kind of gig.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 11:19:27 PM by JaguarX »

Absolute

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2013, 12:49:05 AM »
-rest of comment removed by author because it may be to much for some people.-

This is too much for me, please remove the comment commenting on how it may be too much for me. Thank you

Joshex

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2013, 01:58:13 AM »
This is too much for me, please remove the comment commenting on how it may be too much for me. Thank you

lol, self incrimination is a wonderful thing :P ok ok I'll remove it.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

thunderforce

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2013, 12:49:34 PM »
Most anything is possible, and we'll never truly know why NCSoft chose to close CoH.

But we can be fairly confident that some possibilities are manifestly counterfactual; this is one of them.

Cobra Man

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2013, 01:05:03 PM »
But we can be fairly confident that some possibilities are manifestly counterfactual; this is one of them.

+1

Noyjitat

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2013, 11:01:54 PM »
They shut the game down because they are ass hats. And until I see some form of proof of the latter I won't give them any form of forgiveness or empathy.

goodtime

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2013, 11:38:50 PM »
It's not just that they shut the game down for themselves, they also shut down an employee buy-out attempt.   They shut down the seeds of City of Heroes 2.  And all with no whys nor wherefores.    I understand companies need to make tough decisions, but they actively and unfeelingly alienated subscribers.   To imagine that their feelings are hurt by our continuing reactions is ludicrous.

As a subscriber, my recourse is my voice and my wallet.  I will continue to speak out against them and they will not get dime one from me until they either return the game to service or sell it.  And depending on if/how that turns out, they still might not get my money.

Don't purchase their products, recommend other people not purchase their products, and SAVE CITY OF HEROES.


Sajaana

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2013, 12:45:15 AM »
We ought to know the truth of what all went on...not just for us, but for whatever other projects are launched by this fan base.

LadyVamp

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2013, 02:22:40 AM »
I'm not sure of any specific reason for the headshot to our game community.  But I do believe the reaction by not only our community but others including those that hated CoH have them thinking twice about such a heavy handed tactics.  Even some of those that thought CoH was a waste of HDD space did a double take.  There's something to be said when even your critics are asking, "what they hell are you people doing?"  'You people' referring to NCSoft management specifically.

However, I prefer to look to the future and not dwell on the past.  NCSoft is the past.  They walked out on us.  It's done.  Why is no longer relevant.  At least to me.  But, We have a chance of a future.  Several projects in fact.  Soon we'll have a kickstarter with one of them.  I, for one, am looking forward to seeing what they have.

My hope is bring my mice to this new world.  Somewhere in one of these new worlds is a person in trouble.  Someone that needs help.  And, one of my mice will be there to help.  To fight off the evil.  To make the streets safe again for those who cannot fight back.

If NCSoft is unwilling or unable, we will find other streets.  Other towns!
No Surrender!

Joshex

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2013, 03:36:47 AM »
We ought to know the truth of what all went on...not just for us, but for whatever other projects are launched by this fan base.

this! for many reasons some of which are legal.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Cobra Man

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2013, 09:30:36 AM »
We ought to know the truth of what all went on...not just for us, but for whatever other projects are launched by this fan base.

There is no conspiracy here.

NCsoft simply decided that CoH didn't fit in with what it had planned for the future.

The lack of transfer or sale of the CoH IP wasn't a surprise either.

NCsoft have never allowed a game IP to move on, once they have shut it down.

It's annoying as hell but there's no mystery as to what happened.

The only way that CoH could ever be resurrected is for NCsoft to be bought over, and even then it would need any new owner to be sympathetic to our cause.

I doubt that this will ever happen to be really honest. I'm just hoping that the 3 new projects gets off the ground, although I have my doubts that the market can sustain that number even if they all do get started.

At this stage my money would be on TPP to be the favorite to succeed.


MWRuger

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2013, 05:19:16 PM »
Oh my, I need some tinfoil for this thread.

We don't know the reason, we may never know the reason. There simply is not enough evidence to do anything other than speculate.

That said, Occam's Razor is the tool to use the, not the Deus Ex Machina methods of Sherlock Holmes.

The thing is, even if they wanted to change their minds, they can't, not now. The execs have invested too much personal reputation into the decision to reverse it. A change of leadership is the only chance for that and even then the odds would be long. There are too many other projects that have a better ROI then COX.
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Joshex

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2013, 02:14:53 PM »
Oh my, I need some tinfoil for this thread.

We don't know the reason, we may never know the reason. There simply is not enough evidence to do anything other than speculate.

That said, Occam's Razor is the tool to use the, not the Deus Ex Machina methods of Sherlock Holmes.

The thing is, even if they wanted to change their minds, they can't, not now. The execs have invested too much personal reputation into the decision to reverse it. A change of leadership is the only chance for that and even then the odds would be long. There are too many other projects that have a better ROI then COX.

so then you feel the best option is to infiltrate and take over?

that is an option we haven't considered yet.

everyone on titan network should 'force apply' or apply to management positions at NCSoft corporate in korea. don't hold back, dish out an award winning presentation of your qualifications and skills, get hired and if enough get hired then you'll be the biggest voices in the boardroom.

or, you could take the boss or any naysayers out for pufferfish sushi and get them and the chef really drunk.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Zombie Man

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2013, 02:55:32 PM »
so then you feel the best option is to infiltrate and take over?

Yes. I'm already in Korea with a job in NCsoft's mailroom. I'll let you know when I make it to president of the company.

Cinnder

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2013, 06:23:23 PM »
Yes. I'm already in Korea with a job in NCsoft's mailroom. I'll let you know when I make it to president of the company.

Well done, Agent Z!  Keep an eye out for the specially marked envelope that will contain your super spy gear for the next phase of your mission...

JaguarX

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2013, 08:48:41 PM »
so then you feel the best option is to infiltrate and take over?

that is an option we haven't considered yet.

everyone on titan network should 'force apply' or apply to management positions at NCSoft corporate in korea. don't hold back, dish out an award winning presentation of your qualifications and skills, get hired and if enough get hired then you'll be the biggest voices in the boardroom.

or, you could take the boss or any naysayers out for pufferfish sushi and get them and the chef really drunk.

Make sure it's management positions with power and not some management over something small. There is a difference between management and executive level management. Also dont forget to inquire how those positions came open. Maybe those last ones were outraged at the closing and all got let go for making a fuss. :p

LadyVamp

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2013, 11:52:04 PM »
so then you feel the best option is to infiltrate and take over?

that is an option we haven't considered yet.

everyone on titan network should 'force apply' or apply to management positions at NCSoft corporate in korea. don't hold back, dish out an award winning presentation of your qualifications and skills, get hired and if enough get hired then you'll be the biggest voices in the boardroom.

or, you could take the boss or any naysayers out for pufferfish sushi and get them and the chef really drunk.

eh.  Bribery would probably be more successful. 
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Quinch

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Re: Attempting to extract information
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2013, 02:42:00 PM »
But that way you can get your bribe money back! Win-win!