Author Topic: I'm kinda torn here  (Read 18362 times)

Blue Pulsar

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 213
  • Epic Mediocrity
I'm kinda torn here
« on: July 15, 2013, 03:29:32 AM »
A bunch of my friends chose GW2 as their game after leaving CoX. They have continually been trying to get me to join them and I haven't quite found a game to occupy my time since the closing. I'm not particularly a huge fan of fantasy but I've been itching to see my old friends again and have something to do in my spare time. Not to mention, the reviews from the people I trust say the game is pretty good. In fact, I haven't heard a bad review of it yet.

I guess my problem is the owners. I really don't want my money going to the very company that screwed us over. If it were owned and operated by anyone other than NC$oft, I'd likely have tried it out many months ago. But, all things considered, I'm torn between my friends and my sense of honor.

So, I guess my question is this: Would I be a traitor if I went to play the game? When Plan Z comes to fruition, and/or TF:HM pulls through, I'll be back in my tights in a heartbeat, but I'm just really bored and I miss my friends. I guess another factor this: If some of us are in that game and make friends, we can pull a lot of people back when the time comes. Maybe even some new players... I don't know. What do you all think?
Blue Pulsar - 50 nrg/kin def - first toon - Liberty
Bane of Lanur - 52 nec/dark MM - Main vill - Liberty
Destan H. - 53 SS/FA brute - Farm/PvP hybrid - Freedom
Destan's Fury - 53 StJ/Regen brute - PvPer - Freedom
Destan's Shadow Gang - 53 Thug/Dark MM - PvPer - Freedom

Golden Girl

  • One Liners and Winky Faces
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,242
    • Heroes and Villains
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2013, 03:47:05 AM »
Would I be a traitor if I went to play the game?

Yes, citizen - and treason will not be tolerated.
"Heroes and Villains" website - http://www.heroes-and-villains.com
"Heroes and Villains" on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/HeroesAndVillainsMMORPG
"Heroes and Villains" on Twitter - https://twitter.com/Plan_Z_Studios
"Heroes and Villains" teaser trailer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnjKqNPfFv8
Artwork - http://goldengirlcoh.deviantart.com

Aggelakis

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,001
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2013, 03:50:56 AM »
GW2 is pretty awesome. I stopped playing because NW came out, but it's good.
Bob Dole!! Bob Dole. Bob Dole! Bob Dole. Bob Dole. Bob Dole... Bob Dole... Bob... Dole...... Bob...


ParagonWiki
OuroPortal

Tahliah

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 83
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2013, 04:16:15 AM »
This is really up to you.  I, personally, will never give another dime penny to NCSoft because of what they've done (and it's not the first time they did that, either; this was just particularly egregious in terms of the way they treated Paragon Studios and we, the paying customers), but that's me.  I would never seek to impose or bully others into supporting my own boycott.  If you want to play GW2, then do so; there's nothing wrong with you making your own decisions on how you spend your own time and money. 

I have COH friends who are playing GW2, but if they want to see me, they have to come to TSW (or every now and then SWTOR).  Luckily, they do want to see me, so yay! 

Super Firebug

  • New Efforts # 20,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 828
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2013, 04:37:34 AM »
In my opinion, the word "traitor" is way too strong for this situation. It's like those who use the word "guilt" for eating something not on their diet - totally inappropriate word. "Guilt" should be saved for something illegal or morally wrong, and "traitor" should be saved for those who betray their country. Sure, some folks' feelings about NCSoft run deep here. But it's up to you. If you want to play GW2, go for it. You don't even have to tell us. :)
Linux. Because a world without walls or fences won't need Windows or Gates.

Electric-Knight

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 297
  • E-K and Malfaz taking a break, drinking tea
    • www.pauldamonthomas.com
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2013, 04:58:24 AM »
Only you can determine that. As the only "betrayal" would be within yourself. You have to do what you believe and not what you think someone else might think.

I can understand the personal conflict. It just comes down to whether you'd feel good or bad about either decision.
Stay true to yourself.

I've not played it at all, but, it's just a one-time purchase, right? The development studio, responsible for making it, might be good people (despite their publishers being NCSoft).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not sure that I'd play anything under NCSoft, but there hasn't been anything that's tempted me... Under the right (or wrong?) circumstances, it is possible I'd consider it.

Try and follow through on the two different directions in your mind and imagine what you'd think and feel.

Don't worry about the rest of us... There are plenty of CoH lovers that have bought and played GW2. You'll likely not even be among the first of Golden Girl's executions after the inquisitions. ;D
--
"Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever."
- Baron Munchausen

http://www.pauldamonthomas.com/

Triplash

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,248
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2013, 05:05:09 AM »
Neither choice is wrong. Standing up for your principles is important, and so is spending time with the people who matter to you.

If you want to avoid NCsoft's products because you disagree with their business practices, then you go right ahead, and don't let anyone tell you you shouldn't. It's your right as a consumer, and as a human being, to adhere to personal principles.

However the idea that you'd be a "traitor" simply for playing a video game is just plain silly, and don't let people talk you into believing that it's valid. Traitor is a much more serious word than "someone who did something I don't like", and anybody who would define it that way is not worth listening to.

If your friends are important to you, then go spend time with them. It doesn't matter if it's that game or another, or even a different hobby entirely. Just find something fun to do with your time. When you see that signal in the sky, you want to be ready to go, not too burnt out and bummed out to answer it.

Just don't forget to keep checking back here or with one of the FB groups for news and stuff. Cause hey... you wanna see the signal when it lights up, right? ;)

Blue Pulsar

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 213
  • Epic Mediocrity
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2013, 05:28:37 AM »
In my opinion, the word "traitor" is way too strong for this situation.../...and "traitor" should be saved for those who betray their country.
I am not a fan of going by connotation or the way a word "feels." I was just going by the definition of traitor, which is fitting and does not necessarily refer to race or country.

Traitor: one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty

My obligation in this situation is to my first MMO and the community that I have been a part of for over 7 years. I have a very strong loyalty to the game, but I also have a strong loyalty to my friends. Thus, the dual-sided pull.

Quote
It's like those who use the word "guilt" for eating something not on their diet - totally inappropriate word. "Guilt" should be saved for something illegal or morally wrong...
Guilt is synonymous with regret and remorse, which is easy to feel if we think we have done something contradictory to our morals. And for some, eating healthy is a moral.

Quote
Sure, some folks' feelings about NCSoft run deep here. But it's up to you. If you want to play GW2, go for it. You don't even have to tell us. :)
Yeah, I know it's up to me, but in order to make the decision, I was just looking for feedback from the community. I appreciate your response and it's attempt at making me not feel like such a douche bag, but I am honestly looking for peoples personal opinion. What would you do in my situation.

Only you can determine that. As the only "betrayal" would be within yourself. You have to do what you believe and not what you think someone else might think.
I'm just looking for input, really. I truly want to know the attitude of the community. Thanks for your input, too.

Just don't forget to keep checking back here or with one of the FB groups for news and stuff. Cause hey... you wanna see the signal when it lights up, right? ;)
Oh, trust me. I am waiting patiently for either TF:HM or my chosen Plan Z. And when the day comes that either, or both, come about, I'll be there.

But, as I mentioned before, I honestly believe that if I get back into contact with my friends, when the time comes for players to come back to Superheroism, I'd like to have rapport with them in hopes to get them back. And who knows, maybe I could bring others... which could start a chain reaction. In that sense, it would be nice if NC$oft felt a loss to the very game (or one of it's successors) and community that it abandoned.

What it boils down to is the money. Not so much the 50 bucks leaving my pocket, but who's pocket it's going into. If the game were free to start, I would likely have checked it out already. I just don't want to support the company.
Blue Pulsar - 50 nrg/kin def - first toon - Liberty
Bane of Lanur - 52 nec/dark MM - Main vill - Liberty
Destan H. - 53 SS/FA brute - Farm/PvP hybrid - Freedom
Destan's Fury - 53 StJ/Regen brute - PvPer - Freedom
Destan's Shadow Gang - 53 Thug/Dark MM - PvPer - Freedom

Electric-Knight

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 297
  • E-K and Malfaz taking a break, drinking tea
    • www.pauldamonthomas.com
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2013, 07:14:55 AM »
Haha, yeah, I hear ya...
If piracy were an option, that'd likely by my choice in that situation! ;)
Aharrr!!!


--
"Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever."
- Baron Munchausen

http://www.pauldamonthomas.com/

Tahliah

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 83
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2013, 08:09:58 AM »
Blue, we already know what the community says about this: some have chosen to never support any NCSoft effort again, some have made exceptions such as GW2, and some just shrugged about the whole thing and will play any NCSoft game that grabs their interest.  That's as it should be.  We're individuals, not mindless sheeple blindly following the herd. 

Me? I'll never play another NCSoft game (unless they resurrected COX, of course), and I can't understand why anyone would, especially those of us still here.  But I don't have to understand it.  As I said, I have COH friends who went to GW2, but they are more than happy to hop onto games I'm on from time to time so we don't lose touch.  Actually, the same holds true for a few who went to CO.  I don't have anything huge against that game or anyone associated with it; I just can't stand it.  I'd rather not annoy my friends by constantly griping about how awful CO is the whole time we're playing, and I'm sure they're glad I'm not there doing that.  Heh.

Des_Tructive

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 95
  • SLAP!
    • Meta - Superhuman Covert Ops (german)
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2013, 10:06:05 AM »
Neither choice is wrong. Standing up for your principles is important, and so is spending time with the people who matter to you.
...This, and this:
 
If your friends are important to you, then go spend time with them. It doesn't matter if it's that game or another, or even a different hobby entirely.
Quoted for truth.
I didn't have to make the choice, since most of my vfriends went to TSW, but friendship in itself is a principle that I, for one, value more than the principle of "virtual justice". Heck, if it makes you feel better, just buy the thing, and boycott the shop. I'm sure there's enough content to enjoy with your friends without sacrificing more $$$ to the hungry god NC.
CoX: @DeS Tructive
TSW: BloodyCarrie; HrFaust; TheContact

Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2013, 12:37:52 PM »
As others have said, it is your choice. If you feel that a compromise is needed to satisfy both demands of your soul, I recommend spending the barest minimum to gain access so you can play with your friends, and then choosing to spend not another dime on their in-game stores. But even that is, ultimately, up to you. Do not allow your happiness to be held hostage by NCSoft.

General Idiot

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2013, 02:54:12 PM »
For whatever it might be worth, personally I found GW2 to be a thoroughly boring game once the novelty and the appeal of the shiny graphics wore off. But that's only my personal opinion.

Manga

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 334
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2013, 02:56:38 PM »

If it makes you feel better, NCSoft kind of hates GW2 and wishes it would die, so if you join it you're also kind of kicking them where it hurts.

Kistulot

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 540
  • Argentum Weritas Est!
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2013, 05:27:36 PM »
I bought GW2 before the shutdown because while I love CoH, having something else to do sounded like it would make CoH more fun. I didnt get very far however before the shutdown notice hit, and then I didnt play until after.

It was hard to really get into the game, missing Paragon so much, but it does a lot very miserably wrong. The initial rush to 80 can be kinda fun, but its instanced dungeons were buggy as heck, crafting was tedious, and the plot is one of the most miserable things I've ever had a chance to experience.

Jumping puzzles sounded really fun and were part of why I bought the game, only to find out they took more inspiration from meatboy and IWBTG than something more longterm fun. The Dungeons are insanely frustrating unless you know exactly how to do them. Their idea for how to 'destroy the trinity' means everyone sucks at everything. I wasn't really able to enjoy the game because no matter the role I took on, I couldn't do it nearly as effectively. My PB could be tanky DPS with off heals, but my Warrior or whatever it was called felt like it was made of tissuepaper in any of the actually difficult content.

Its not worth the money, the time, or the investment. Convince them another game is more fun, one that's F2P instead of once you buy it maybe.

But one thing I will say is that Arenanet should not be blamed for NCSoft's actions. They didn't tell them to can Paragon. Besides what they consider to be a fun game, from all accounts they're half decent people. My argument is more its not a fun game than Arenanet doesn't deserve your money.
Woo! - Argent Girl

Stormsurge

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 27
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2013, 06:11:50 PM »
If I we're you, I would hold off until Final Fantasy comes out. It's probably worth a go over GWs.

Omega Mark V

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 145
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2013, 08:19:14 PM »
If I we're you, I would hold off until Final Fantasy comes out. It's probably worth a go over GWs.

That or The Elder Scrolls Online. Beta is nice so far.
- Omega Mk. V

Illusionss

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 690
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2013, 08:43:55 PM »
to The OP: Are you a "traitor" for playing GW2? Not really..... just be ready for, as one Amazon reviewer put it, "the nightmare grind of collecting x amount of rat butts."

Quote
Kistulot: Their idea for how to 'destroy the trinity' means everyone sucks at everything.

This! No matter what I rolled, I felt insanely squishy. I did not find the play experience fun at all.

The game world is lovely, and swimming around underwater is 100% a lot of fun. That was really the most fun part of the game.... everything else was a nightmare grind. I have not logged into GW2 since March of 2013. I am wondering if I will ever bother logging in again.... I have a feeling I might not.

Why would I bother doing that when I can log into Icon and fly around my old stomping-grounds? Just flying around CoX maps is ten times more fun than anything GW2 has to offer. A sad indictment and TRUTH, all in one statement?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 08:49:07 PM by Illusionss »

ukaserex

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 500
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2013, 11:42:40 PM »
Blue, I think you know me well enough to know I wouldn't mince words. Although all of us vehemently disagree with the way CoH closed, and the fact that it did close when it likely didn't have to close. But, there's a great deal that we don't know for certain, because, well, NCSoft is really none of our business.

Ultimately, playing a game that funds NCSoft doesn't hurt the MWM TPP one bit. A man can only create toons and fly around the city so much. Sooner or later, ya wanna kill stuff.
Go, play, and kill fantasy creatures - whatever form they may be in. You have my blessing.

And of course, we'll expect you to join the kickstarter.
Those who have no idea what they are doing genuinely have no idea that they don't know what they're doing. - John Cleese

MakoMako

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 53
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2013, 01:07:22 AM »
Well, here's my attitude.

People wanna play Guild Wars 2? That's fine. It proves something, though.

When City of Heroes was shut down, my attitude from then and on is that I will not be supplying NCSoft a penny ever again. Their business practice in that matter was appalling, and I can't in good conscience give them any more support.

That said, there's an ulterior motive to this. And many others share this, from what I can tell. And denial of NCSoft product after what happened to CoH was meant to show them they made a mistake.

I mean, that's what people like about their stock issues, right? The fact that they feel the wrath of their "mistake" and tank for it?

So long as you continue to pay and support NCSoft by buying Guild Wars 2, playing it and perusing it's store, you are making NCSoft comfortable in the fact it didn't lose you. Its losses weren't that bad, because people pretty much just funneled from CoH to GW2. Sure, they might've lost a couple... Acceptable losses, right?

The reason why there's so much hate is that if you buy NCSoft product, you're using your wallet to tell them you're a-okay with what happened and will still pay them. This is hurtful towards consumers that want a change. This is where "betrayal" comes from.

I don't think any active "betrayal" is happening because very few people actually even consider this part. Many of which (who I've spoken to personally) think their money is going exclusively to Arena Net, and not NCSoft.

It's detrimental to efforts, yes. Because it makes NCSoft less considerate to our plight, that even in our initiative, we're still giving them money. Outright betrayal? No. Because I don't think that's what anyone is really even thinking. Furthermore, lots of people have already decided CoH is gone and no further efforts will help, so why deny yourself the fun?

blackjak

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 517
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2013, 01:40:23 AM »
COH was always our game because of 2 things: 1. Superheroes are awesome (include everything from story lines to powers to customization here) and 2. We were all friends and a community.

I say if you can't have a good #1 take as much #2 as you can get.

Wait....that sounds bad....

I mean if you can't have your friends in the game you really want, be with them wherever they are. **insert Stephen Stills singing "Love The One Your With"**
Virtue: Moonsun, Dynamo Jr., Crimson Fury, Sabre Kat, Double Sixxes, Quantum Stranger, Mystic Kirin, Pink.Eye Champion: Blackjak, Redwing Blackbird Justice: Shield Marshal Guardian: White Talon Triumph: Gosuto Union: Stellar Girl

Captain Electric

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 674
  • Crime doesn't pay, evildoers!
    • CoH Faces Profile
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2013, 04:05:55 AM »
Stay true to yourself.

Nuff said.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 04:20:11 AM by Captain Electric »

therain93

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 574
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2013, 05:09:58 AM »
"Principles only mean something if you stick to them when it's inconvenient" or however it goes.  Note: it's not about what some people in the community believe; the question is, what does it really mean to you that NCsoft is the one running the game and then be happy with the decision you make.
@Texarkana - March 5, 2004 - December 1, 2012 -- Imageshack |-| Youtube
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You don't know what it's like.... |-| Book One. Chapter one...

The Fifth Horseman

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 961
  • Outside known realities.
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2013, 08:44:53 AM »
Note: it's not about what some people in the community believe; the question is, what does it really mean to you that NCsoft is the one running the game and then be happy with the decision you make.
And what does it really mean that you are giving NCSoft more money. :p
We were heroes. We were villains. At the end of the world we all fought as one. It's what we did that defines us.
The end occurred pretty much as we predicted: all servers redlining until midnight... and then no servers to go around.

Somewhere beyond time and space, if you look hard you might find a flash of silver trailing crimson: a lone lost Spartan on his way home.

FatherXmas

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,646
  • You think the holidays are bad for you ...
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2013, 09:13:53 AM »
I've spent over $1000 on CoH in the nearly 8 years I played it between subscriptions, box set, super boosters, etc.

I spent $50 on GW2.  It was on sale at the time.  I have not spent a dime buying gems for their cash shop because you can buy their proxy currency for it's cash shop with in-game currency.

If they kept CoH open, I would have spent another $100 on it by now.  Instead they got $50, and not even that because I bought it retail.

So while they are making some money on me, it's not much over those boycotting.
Tempus unum hominem manet

Twitter - AtomicSamuraiRobot@NukeSamuraiBot

Tiberian Fiend

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 49
  • Canis tiberius
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2013, 10:30:18 AM »
Anyone who gives NCSoft money is no friend.
The Titantic Tiberian Fiend

LadyVamp

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 539
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2013, 12:42:35 AM »
Blue, only you can decide what is right for you.  For me, there are mice present in GW2 but I'm long past the age of idealism.  I'm in it for the fun, the experience, and my friends.  Do I want coh back?  You bet I do but for a boycott of ncsoft to work, you'd need virtually everyone who plays any ncsoft title to stop playing and cancel their accounts.  As much as I'd like to have that kind of support from the gaming world, we won't get it.  So I choose to see what the world has.  In some ways, some of the ideas we brought to the table  at ncsoft have made it into gw2.  Rumour has it they may make account or even toon based housing (aka 1 person SGs which was proposed to ncsoft more than once for coh).

I know that add fuel to the fire burning in some of you who'd rather see nc out of business than play their games.  If coh comes back, I'd rejoin it.  But I'm not going to let a bad decision at ncsoft stop me from enjoying other games even if they are ncsoft titles as well.  But, I will never again put that much of myself into those toons.

btw:  Golden Girl, the mice would like to know what's the bounty on Lady Vamp and the other traitors.   ;)
No Surrender!

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2013, 12:57:25 AM »
I say go for it if it feel right for you. Life is there to enjoy and dont let anyone any company any body stop ya. On the same token, dont betray the principles that are important. Friends are friends, and true friendship is not limited by a game or anyone activity. There are plenty of things my friends like to do but I dont enjoy thus I dont partake and see them on the flip side. If your principles say dont give ncsoft another dime, then do not give in to the urge to give them more money.

Taceus Jiwede

  • Time Traveler
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 978
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2013, 02:33:21 AM »
Just don't spend money in the gem store if your concern is giving NCSoft money, which seems to be the communities concern.  $50 where part of it goes to Arenanet isn't going to help NCsoft.  But like everyone else is saying just do what feels right to you.  If you wanna play then play and if you don't feel comfortable doing it then don't.  Because we won't know,  NCSoft has no idea that you played CoH or have an issue with them for closing it.  I think the idea around here that by paying for the games it is sending them the message its okay to do keep doing what they are doing isn't accurate cause they have no idea who is who.  Money is money and they don't care where it comes from or the opinions of those who spend it.  That is why all that matters is what you believe the right answer to be, because it only effects you.  The only thing you may or may not be betraying is your personal beliefs.  Not us or COH.

NecrotechMaster

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 388
  • is there a badge for that?
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2013, 06:52:10 AM »
to throw my 2 cents in on this

i personally will not spend even a cent to even get guild wars, or even if someone bought the game for me, grace their servers with my presence

however, this does not mean i will stop others from wanting to play it, i have several real life friends who play it and were trying to get me to play it, but because of me not wanting to support ncsoft in any way i always refused to play it with them (since these are RL friends we all have tons of other options to play on steam as well so not like we wouldnt have anything else to play together)

others do bring up valid points, if you dont want to spend money on it but someone wants you to play it, its either a 1 time purchase that you could very easily find on cheap sale somewhere or have someone buy it for you and dont spend any real money on the cash shop and you wont be supporting ncsoft, in fact you will be costing ncsoft money by using space on the servers and eating some of their bandwidth if you want to see it that way

JanessaVR

  • New Efforts # 12,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 815
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2013, 08:06:17 AM »
Yeah, compromise solution - buy it in a used bin somewhere, and then don't spend money in their cash shop - in the end, you're probably costing them $, and you get to join your friends online.  Win-win.

General Idiot

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2013, 10:35:42 AM »
Only problem with that is MMOs don't get into used bins, because the code they came with has already been used so the box and anything in it is now completely useless.

dwturducken

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,152
  • Now available in stereo
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2013, 03:40:45 PM »
Only problem with that is MMOs don't get into used bins, because the code they came with has already been used so the box and anything in it is now completely useless.

Sadly, this isn't completely accurate. One used book store where I used to live had several copies of Guild Wars 1. They were quick to pull down the opened ones (some had come in from a local game store as "overstocks," so they were still usable), but they were none too happy with the revelation. Game stores? Without question. If they aren't savvy enough to know what they are putting on their shelves, they will learn the hard way when someone brings back the useless piece of plastic they've just purchased.

On the other hand, it's been a while since I've tried it (Ascheron's Call circa the release of AC2), but I seem to remember being taken to a website that gave me a message regarding the code already being used with a link to purchase a new one. This, while handy, would likely cost more for the actual code (never mind what you already spent on the used box), and it would be through the NCSoft website, therefore maximizing the amount of your money that goes to them.

tl;dr: Don't ever buy an MMO used. Or check one out from the library. (Yes, they buy them, though the one my mother works for won't, anymore.)
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Aura Controller

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 33
  • "Hey, is there room in that head for one more?"
    • My Youtube Channel
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2013, 05:49:44 PM »
I don't care if NC$oft released the best game ever made I would not play it, but that's just me. I made a promise to NC$soft. It was "I will never for the rest of my live, after life or any other form of being give you more of my money, love, or help. Enjoy you lives without me." And I always keep my promises.
http://www.youtube.com/user/AccidentalPsychopath

Look I'm on YouTube!
Is it OK to advertise that down here? O.o
Also does anyone ever read these?

Golden Girl

  • One Liners and Winky Faces
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,242
    • Heroes and Villains
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2013, 06:58:35 PM »
I don't care if NC$oft released the best game ever made

They did - back in 2004 ;)
"Heroes and Villains" website - http://www.heroes-and-villains.com
"Heroes and Villains" on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/HeroesAndVillainsMMORPG
"Heroes and Villains" on Twitter - https://twitter.com/Plan_Z_Studios
"Heroes and Villains" teaser trailer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnjKqNPfFv8
Artwork - http://goldengirlcoh.deviantart.com

Sermon

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 41
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2013, 08:57:36 PM »
I know you opened yourself up for it, but I think any name calling, in particular things like "no friend", is pretty childish.

I have been playing GW2 since launch. I was a fan that came late to GW1, and it was playing CoH (7 years subbed) and enjoying what NCsoft was delivering me that got me interested in the first place. I don't prefer supporting NCSoft, and I have thus far avoided spending any money beyond the box cost for the game. That said, I probably will eventually. I really like the game that ArenaNet is making and I do want to support them. Additionally, it offers an ease of playing with friends which is unmatched by almost any MMO out there (excepting CoH).

I dunno what I think about these revival projects. That said, I would resub CoH in a heartbeat given the opportunity.  I have had a lot of fun with GW2, but it is its own game.

You have to make the decision for yourself. Others might judge, but they should worry about their own decisions and their own moral code. Do right by yourself, your principles, and your happiness.

JanessaVR

  • New Efforts # 12,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 815
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2013, 10:11:56 PM »
Only problem with that is MMOs don't get into used bins, because the code they came with has already been used so the box and anything in it is now completely useless.
I guess I should have been more specific, but I considered that to be so self-evident I didn't need to mention it.  However, I buy "New-Used" items (items technically "used" but still shrink-wrapped / unopened) from Amazon.com all the time.  Surely game stores have the equivalent of this (or just go to Amazon.com).

Blue Pulsar

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 213
  • Epic Mediocrity
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2013, 06:15:30 AM »
I agree (or at least slightly concur) with just about every poster here. I do miss my SG mates, and I haven't yet found a good MMO to play. I've tried TSW, and it's okay, but just not what I'm used to. I would never even consider GWII if it weren't for my friends. I really am not a fan of the sword and sorcery fantasy genre. It's sooooo over played. At this point, I'm pretty much going to stay away from the game, but I may be suckered into it in the future.

And if that day comes, I'll likely find someone who doesn't want their account anymore and pay 15 bucks for it. Or buy it off ebay for a tad more, but spending any more money, especially money that would go straight to NC$oft, is out of the question.

They got over 2k from me during the time they had CoX running. Over seven years on one account, and over five years on another, paying the monthly sub. And buying the occasional Paragon Points too. Until the day they bring back my game, I'm going to make damn sure I'm not supporting them.

I still miss my friends, though.
Blue Pulsar - 50 nrg/kin def - first toon - Liberty
Bane of Lanur - 52 nec/dark MM - Main vill - Liberty
Destan H. - 53 SS/FA brute - Farm/PvP hybrid - Freedom
Destan's Fury - 53 StJ/Regen brute - PvPer - Freedom
Destan's Shadow Gang - 53 Thug/Dark MM - PvPer - Freedom

Captain Electric

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 674
  • Crime doesn't pay, evildoers!
    • CoH Faces Profile
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2013, 07:16:16 AM »
Something that comes up a lot is people saying they're not REALLY supporting NCSoft by playing the game, because they got it on sale or only paid for the initial purchase or don't by gems or whatever.

If you somehow got the game for free, or found it via a third party who wasn't giving a share back to NCSoft, it might be tempting to go for it even if you had previously committed to the boycott. But here's why I think you'd be fooling yourself.

If you show up inside the game, and you're adding to its concurrent numbers, you're supporting NCSoft in one of the ways that counts the most. You might laugh it off, "No, I'm just wasting their bandwidth! Final joke's on them! Haha!" Listen. No. And you know why this isn't true. You don't need me to explain this one to you.

Now, whether you think that's good or bad is up to you. But don't lie to yourself. If you show up to play the game, you're supporting the studio and the publisher. Directly, indirectly, intentions don't matter. The publisher will value your participation. If you're a fan or you're just not concerned about all this, then it doesn't matter. But if it matters to you and you know it, don't give yourself something to feel regretful about later.

Mistress Urd

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 506
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2013, 07:34:16 AM »
They did - back in 2004 ;)


OMG! I agree with Golden Girl  :o *faints*

Kidding!  ;)

Me personally, I won't support NCSoft in the post CoH era until the game is back online. I can wait.

FatherXmas

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,646
  • You think the holidays are bad for you ...
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2013, 08:23:53 AM »
Now, whether you think that's good or bad is up to you. But don't lie to yourself. If you show up to play the game, you're supporting the studio and the publisher. Directly, indirectly, intentions don't matter. The publisher will value your participation. If you're a fan or you're just not concerned about all this, then it doesn't matter. But if it matters to you and you know it, don't give yourself something to feel regretful about later.

The studio did not wrong me.  The publisher in NA, NC Interactive, did not wrong me.  So I hold them no grudge.

The people who wronged me are across the Pacific.  Sure they own 100% of the holding company that holds 100% of both ArenaNet and NC Interactive.  And sure the sales and profits earned from GW2 has giving those people a much needed boost to help them redeem their reputation among the stock analysts.  But ArenaNet has already publicly contradicted those people twice and in roughly 3 weeks we'll see if it happens again.  All the while the studio that they championed for years in Korea has publicly apologized to it's players for the lackluster rate of new content while sales fall far below expectations.

Yes ArenaNet isn't Paragon Studios and GW2 is not CoH.  But ArenaNet is making it publicly clear that they aren't simply yes men to those across the Pacific.  And in a culture like Korea, with it's strong Confucius roots, having an underling defy you publicly is a great embarrassment and I applaud them for it.  There was no way our little band of devoted players could affect those across the Pacific as much as ArenaNet telling all that those across the Pacific are misleading stockholders and analysts not once but twice.
Tempus unum hominem manet

Twitter - AtomicSamuraiRobot@NukeSamuraiBot

Captain Electric

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 674
  • Crime doesn't pay, evildoers!
    • CoH Faces Profile
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2013, 09:18:58 AM »
Not saying I need proof of this (i.e. I believe what you're typing), but just for the pure enjoyment factor, if you could easily link me to some articles or stories about this, I'd much appreciate it. That is just pure gold, what you posted there. I'd probably attempt to hug the article while reading it.

And sure, this would totally make me want to support ArenaNet, but unfortunately there's no way I can do that without also supporting NCSoft.

Sermon

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 41
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2013, 07:00:22 PM »
If you show up inside the game, and you're adding to its concurrent numbers, you're supporting NCSoft in one of the ways that counts the most. You might laugh it off, "No, I'm just wasting their bandwidth! Final joke's on them! Haha!" Listen. No. And you know why this isn't true. You don't need me to explain this one to you.

I actually agree with this. In an MMO game, players become a part of the game's content. Being a GW2 player is always an asset to the game, and server costs for an individual player on the scale they are running things are infinitesimal. Even buying gems with gold in game is buying gems someone else paid for. For me, however, it is more about supporting a good game (which I think it is) and a good developer (which I think they are).

Blue Pulsar

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 213
  • Epic Mediocrity
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2013, 10:11:22 PM »
Something that comes up a lot is people saying they're not REALLY supporting NCSoft by playing the game, because they got it on sale or only paid for the initial purchase or don't by gems or whatever.

What people mean by this is that they are not directly supporting them in a financial way, and they are right. In your eyes, however, you mean even using their product is support, and that can be true in a very, very broad sense. Like choosing to rent a Ford over a Chevrolet at Enterprise is "supporting" Ford.

Quote
If you somehow got the game for free, or found it via a third party who wasn't giving a share back to NCSoft, it might be tempting to go for it even if you had previously committed to the boycott. But here's why I think you'd be fooling yourself.

If you show up inside the game, and you're adding to its concurrent numbers, you're supporting NCSoft in one of the ways that counts the most. You might laugh it off, "No, I'm just wasting their bandwidth! Final joke's on them! Haha!" Listen. No. And you know why this isn't true. You don't need me to explain this one to you.

Actually, you do. If you are going to make such a bold statement such as "If you so much as log in to a game, you are supporting every company that has anything to do with it in the strongest and most important way." you most certainly need to explain yourself, as nearly everyone posting in this thread so far as at least a slightly different view from everyone else. No one sees 100% eye to eye on this issue. From GG's "Traitor" comment, to Agge (a "redname," no less) bluntly saying "GW2 is awesome." Not to mention everyone in between.


Quote
But don't lie to yourself. If you show up to play the game, you're supporting the studio and the publisher. Directly, indirectly, intentions don't matter.

This is patently false. Intentions matter a hell of a lot. If I go into the game intending on picking it up as my new hobby and to just move on, fully supporting the game and the companies behind it, that's one issue. If I squeak by with the cheapest copy I can get and only log in to play with friends, not spending any money, and bailing from the game as soon as one of the incarnations of our heroic MMO is out, that is a completely different issue. Anyone here will tell you that.

Quote
The publisher will value your participation.

They care about the dollar/won/yen/euro/etc. If they aren't getting mine, I am invisible to them. They care not. They want my money, and any effort they take to pursue it will be fruitless and futile. Other than this, out of the hundreds of thousands that play they game, I will matter to none but my friends.

That is, if I ever chose to play, which I most likely will not.

I came here looking for opinions, and I appreciate yours. I do. But, without trying to sound like an ass, don't spout it as though it's unchallengeable fact.
Blue Pulsar - 50 nrg/kin def - first toon - Liberty
Bane of Lanur - 52 nec/dark MM - Main vill - Liberty
Destan H. - 53 SS/FA brute - Farm/PvP hybrid - Freedom
Destan's Fury - 53 StJ/Regen brute - PvPer - Freedom
Destan's Shadow Gang - 53 Thug/Dark MM - PvPer - Freedom

Sermon

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 41
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2013, 10:50:46 PM »
Quote
... you most certainly need to explain yourself, as nearly everyone posting in this thread so far as at least a slightly different view from everyone else. No one sees 100% eye to eye on this issue. From GG's "Traitor" comment, to Agge (a "redname," no less) bluntly saying "GW2 is awesome." Not to mention everyone in between.

I have attempted to elaborate on Captain Electric's comment, because I agree with his statement (though we appear to have a different stance on your basic question).

One lesson which has been learned from free to play games is that players are an asset. You need to have your servers teaming with players who are bound to interact with each other. You have people to chat with and chat about, team with, fight with, fight against, etc. This is one of the reasons the subscription model has been less popular lately. The game needs to minimize the barriers of re-entry to get you back in the game as often as possible. Free to play games don't worry about you using up tiny bits of data. The founder of Path of Exile recently on reddit estimated that, for an indie game, 1 penny per concurrent user per day was a good way to estimate server costs. Assuming you are on constantly, that is only $3.65 per year. (source: http://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/1hhbim/how_much_would_it_cost_to_set_up_servers_for_a/caueian)

In the MMO landscape, players are content. By participating in the game, by buying and selling items, by chatting and teaming with other players you become a part of the content of that game. You create the social interaction, you create the economy, and by-and-large, you create the sense of fun. No one who pines for the "community" at large which City of Heroes offered can deny that point, at least.

Furthermore, in GW2, some players have mentioned that they only buy gems with in game gold. All gems which are supplied within the economy (with very few exceptions) are bought with real currency. Therefore, in buying gems with in game gold, you are increasing the value of that currency, and, in turn, improving the value of the real money currency.

All of this is less direct than handing money right to NCSoft. Heck, you probably can't even do that. Still, being one of millions of gw2 players is part of what makes the game. It shares the very principle behind the notion of a boycott: minuscule, individual participation in something has meaning and impact when performed by the many. That is the same point made by Captain Electric which I am espousing. To not be an "asset" to Guild Wars 2 (and Arenanet, and NCsoft) would mean to never pay (you can't ), to never interact with other players (you can't), and to never participate in the economy.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 11:31:40 PM by Sermon »

Captain Electric

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 674
  • Crime doesn't pay, evildoers!
    • CoH Faces Profile
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2013, 11:02:12 PM »
Exactly. You're the content, sir. Like it, loath it, ignore it. Your intentions matter not. This industry is well aware of the fact that many players aren't ever going to spend, and it has found a way to exploit those players nonetheless. Your intentions can't change their business model.

You asked for feedback and you got it. There's no need to slice it up and debate every sentence or paragraph. It sounds like you're well on your way to making up your own mind about things, and I'm glad to see it. My foremost opinion is still the same: Stay true to yourself.

Sermon

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 41
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2013, 11:18:51 PM »
Assuming you don't try out GW2, I highly recommend Path of Exile for those who enjoy that sort of game (online only Diablo-style ARPG). It has exactly what we all wished City of Heroes had: no publisher :P  not to mention the sole attention of people who both own and develop the game.

FatherXmas

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,646
  • You think the holidays are bad for you ...
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2013, 06:03:15 AM »
Not saying I need proof of this (i.e. I believe what you're typing), but just for the pure enjoyment factor, if you could easily link me to some articles or stories about this, I'd much appreciate it. That is just pure gold, what you posted there. I'd probably attempt to hug the article while reading it.

And sure, this would totally make me want to support ArenaNet, but unfortunately there's no way I can do that without also supporting NCSoft.

It's not as if ArenaNet put out a press release accusing NCSOFT of lying.  What happened was during both the 4Q 2012 investor's conference call in February and the 1Q 2013 investor's conference call in May, it was stated or implied that ArenaNet was preparing an expansion for Guild Wars 2 was in the works.  Likely in response to questions about one since Guild Wars continuing income model was two expansalone box sets and a true expansion.  After all, the rest of NCSOFT's MMOs are, at least in Asia, still subscription based and Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 are oddities.  Now Guild Wars 2 income model is currently cash shop only and after 3 million box sales bringing in more money in Q4 2012 than any single NCSOFT game did in any quarter ever, I'm assuming analysts and stockholders were drooling over the idea of a box expansion and keep pestering NCSOFT about it during these calls.

Box expansion is coming - 4Q 2012 Conference call
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/376352/page/1

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/guild-wars-2-expansion-confirmed/

No we're not
https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/GW2-Expansion-targeted-for-2013/1391159

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/05/arenanet-not-planning-guild-wars-2-expansions-or-sequels/

And I'm mistaken about the 1Q 2013 conference call, it was NCSOFT themselves that walked it back the next day.  Maybe that was to preempt ArenaNet from doing it again.

1Q 2013 Conference call
http://www.dualshockers.com/2013/05/12/ncsoft-is-preparing-a-guild-wars-2-expansion/

http://www.polygon.com/2013/5/13/4325904/guild-wars-2-expansion-pack-is-being-prepared-says-ncsoft

http://www.ibtimes.com/guild-wars-2-expansion-coming-1257629

Ah, you misheard
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/05/14/ncsoft-clarifies-stance-on-guild-wars-2-expansion/

http://www.dualshockers.com/2013/05/14/ncsoft-taking-a-wait-and-see-stance-on-guild-wars-2-expansion/

Like we said before
https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/GW2-expansion-1Q-Ncsoft-Conference-Call-merged/2024859

This time ArenaNet is preempting the conference call by issuing a huge blog update today about what the plans are for the next 6 months and beyond, which doesn't include a box expansion.  Hopefully next month the home office has at least assembled an up to date cheat sheet for answering questions because even though KDB Daewoo no longer includes an expected box expansion in their sales forecast for Guild Wars 2, they still mention it on page 2 of their July 1, 2013 report (pdf) on NCSOFT.

Quote
Operating assumptions: Commercial release of Blade & Soul in China in
3Q13; Launch of an expansion pack forGuild Wars 2 in 2013; Recovery of
revenue from Lineage 1 and 2, and Aion after hitting bottom in 3Q12

and

Quote
Risks
- Upside: (i) Launch of an expansion pack
for Guild Wars 2 in 2013

But that could be attributed to a lazy cut and paste job based on the last several reports.  Of course lazy isn't the way you want the company whose stock reports you may be relying on for investing to be described.  Of course you wouldn't have caught it if you weren't following news about the game at game websites.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 06:14:15 AM by FatherXmas »
Tempus unum hominem manet

Twitter - AtomicSamuraiRobot@NukeSamuraiBot

Captain Electric

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 674
  • Crime doesn't pay, evildoers!
    • CoH Faces Profile
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2013, 10:19:59 AM »
Thanks for putting that together. Now that you mention some of these things, I remember you mentioning them in previous posts; but I wasn't keeping up with any of this previously so it's nice to have it all here in linear order.

Quote
It's not as if ArenaNet put out a press release accusing NCSOFT of lying.

I didn't take it like that; honestly there wasn't any need to read between your lines. Watching NCSoft's most press-worthy NA studio handle themselves with confidence in the shadow of NCSoft is reward enough.

Not too unrelated, but the summer sales have had me thinking about something. Almost every day I see more news about better, higher-quality games coming out of independent studios. And I know that distribution platforms like Steam, GOG.com and Desura have their fair share of haters (I wasn't exactly an early adopter either). But it's thanks to distribution platforms that many of these studios are getting all the advertising they need, sans Big Publishing that has become such a meat grinder that you can't be too comical or cliche in describing it. Distribution platforms are giving creators a chance to bring integrity and soul back to gaming, and I don't think MMO studios will be too far behind the curve.

I've mentioned here and there that I still get the UO itch and still maintain my account all these years later. After City of Heroes closed and I was exploring around the games out there, I came across an MMORPG called LinkRealms which I now log into sometimes instead of UO. It's free to play and funded through cash shop vanity items and access to player housing (or in this case player realms). It's rough around some edges, refined in other ways, the world is massive and fun to explore, and the 3D models and animations for characters and monsters are some of the best I've seen in any 2.5D game, especially the combat animations.

The reason I'm bringing this up is that it is all created and maintained by three hard-working guys who love to play the game. An entire MMO built by three friends. They have no publisher and aren't even on a distribution platform yet. The game could likely be stuck in perpetual beta, but they make enough dough to work full-time on it now, thanks to their small but very loyal community. That gives me hope for this industry.

Growing up, I was a fan of EA for many years. And I was a meganerdy fan of NCSoft since its early days in the NA market and I believe NCSoft played a major role in popularizing diverse MMO themes outside of the fantasy genre (strangely enough). I don't hate Big Publishing just cause, and I never went looking for reasons to dislike their necessity. But Big Publishing just won't stop giving customers reasons to feel dissatisfied. The people who run most of the big publishers have long since lost their way, something which there's no denying has been profitable for them, but will also be their downfall. And yep, that's a bold claim to be sure. You're welcome to bookmark this post.  ;)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 10:40:03 AM by Captain Electric »

Blue Pulsar

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 213
  • Epic Mediocrity
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2013, 09:23:40 PM »
I have attempted to elaborate on Captain Electric's comment...

Exactly. You're the content, sir. Like it, loath it, ignore it.

Yes, I understand your point (both of you), and already grasped the concept back when games started going F2P. My query was not so much "how does a massive amount of people help a game?", but how does a single person support a company?", which seemed to be CE's claim. One which he made enthusiastically, but vague.

I liken your assertion of players helping a game company the way a car driving down the highway helps a road construction company. Technically true, but statistically pointless.

Quote
Your intentions matter not.

Again, yes they do. As I stated here:

This is patently false. Intentions matter a hell of a lot. If I go into the game intending on picking it up as my new hobby and to just move on, fully supporting the game and the companies behind it, that's one issue. If I squeak by with the cheapest copy I can get and only log in to play with friends, not spending any money, and bailing from the game as soon as one of the incarnations of our heroic MMO is out, that is a completely different issue. Anyone here will tell you that.

Quote
This industry is well aware of the fact that many players aren't ever going to spend, and it has found a way to exploit those players nonetheless. Your intentions can't change their business model.

Exploit is kind of a strong word. They don't make use of my existence. Their real reason for keeping it F2P is in hopes that people will buy something eventually. The fact that players can be considered content is simply a byproduct, and a selling point to pitch to the higher ups when suggesting going to a F2P model. As stated by Sermon, a penny a day is the cost of a player. If I spend even 5 dollars in a year, they have made their money off of me. And the chances of a person dropping that much or more in the store of a game they love is highly likely. Not letting people play the game for free means they lose those dollars.

Quote
You asked for feedback and you got it.

By posting on this board in any manner, you are asking for feedback... And you got it too.  ;)

Besides, I asked for opinions of if I should play or not. Not for someone to tell me I'm wrong in my thinking that I won't be in support of the game.

Quote
There's no need to slice it up and debate every sentence or paragraph.

It's just how I roll.

Quote
It sounds like you're well on your way to making up your own mind about things, and I'm glad to see it.

Actually, before I posted, I was nearly ready to pay out the 50 bucks and jump in game. Now, not so much.
Blue Pulsar - 50 nrg/kin def - first toon - Liberty
Bane of Lanur - 52 nec/dark MM - Main vill - Liberty
Destan H. - 53 SS/FA brute - Farm/PvP hybrid - Freedom
Destan's Fury - 53 StJ/Regen brute - PvPer - Freedom
Destan's Shadow Gang - 53 Thug/Dark MM - PvPer - Freedom

dwturducken

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,152
  • Now available in stereo
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #50 on: July 19, 2013, 09:54:10 PM »
I would say that playing with your friends is important enough to warrant looking for the game as deeply discounted as you can find it. I doubt you'll find a copy in the library, at this point, but it wouldn't hurt to look. Don't pin too much on it. And, uh, don't look at the local college library. It may be dried out, but I wouldn't trust that. ;)
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

MakoMako

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 53
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #51 on: July 19, 2013, 11:41:32 PM »
Yes, I understand your point (both of you), and already grasped the concept back when games started going F2P. My query was not so much "how does a massive amount of people help a game?", but how does a single person support a company?", which seemed to be CE's claim. One which he made enthusiastically, but vague.

I liken your assertion of players helping a game company the way a car driving down the highway helps a road construction company. Technically true, but statistically pointless.

Try thinking of it more like a fax machine or telephone. The more people that own it, the more useful it becomes. The same applies to an MMO.

To expand on your example of cars? That's more comparable to saying that playing an MMO helps Internet Service Providers. Technically true, but statistically pointless. Unfortunately, I consider cars a bad analogy because the experiences and interactions while driving are minimal when changing the variable of your car. Driving a Toyota Camry doesn't prevent you from experiencing and interacting with people that drive a Dodge Caravan, nor does it improve the driving experience of other Camry owners.

I'm sorry but your intentions really -don't- matter. You play, you contribute. I'm unsure how to explain this better than Captain Electric or Sermon. But the fact is, the players -are- the content. And unless you're playing the game in the most asocial way possible, refusing to interact with players from socializing to teaming, therefore playing as a Single player game; you, as a player, are content in the game.

Blue Pulsar

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 213
  • Epic Mediocrity
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #52 on: July 20, 2013, 04:49:50 AM »
To expand on your example of cars? That's more comparable to saying that playing an MMO helps Internet Service Providers. Technically true, but statistically pointless. Unfortunately, I consider cars a bad analogy because the experiences and interactions while driving are minimal when changing the variable of your car. Driving a Toyota Camry doesn't prevent you from experiencing and interacting with people that drive a Dodge Caravan, nor does it improve the driving experience of other Camry owners.

Well, in your expansion, the Dodge Caravan or Toyota Camry would be more like a Brute and a Blaster. It's what we choose to use on the road. The road itself is what I was referring to as the game. Choosing one road over another will effect (on a statistically pointless level) the different construction companies that maintain those different roads. If I choose to drive one route to a neighboring town, say a county highway, then I share the road with those who choose to drive on it also and the county maintains the road. But let's say I choose to use an interstate bypass instead. Now I share the road with those who drive that one and effect (on yet another statistically pointless level) the federal government since they maintain that road.

To further expand: Continued extensive use of one road could cause the governing body to increase the QoL features of the road, like more lanes, wider shoulders, newer, brighter lights, better pavement, etc. Which, in turn, would mean that my driving that road (on a statistically pointless level) would have made the road better for other drivers.

My analogies are never bad. ;)

Quote
I'm sorry but your intentions really -don't- matter. You play, you contribute. I'm unsure how to explain this better than Captain Electric or Sermon. But the fact is, the players -are- the content. And unless you're playing the game in the most asocial way possible, refusing to interact with players from socializing to teaming, therefore playing as a Single player game; you, as a player, are content in the game.

So, are you saying that these two scenarios are equally beneficial to NC$oft?:

A: My intent is to move on, forget CoH, and dump my money and time into making the GW2 community better, while teaming, selling, buying, organizing, etc, all sorts of ingame stuff.
Or:
B: I borrow an account, and play once or twice a week to visit my friends. Then, when one of teams here on Titan successfully brings us an incarnation of our game, I drag several players from GW2 to the new one.

If you say that a person who chooses B helps the company as much as the person who chooses A, then you're dead wrong. I am sorry that you don't think intentions matter, but they do. They color our decisions and make us do things differently. And a difference is a difference. I understand that there is the idea "If you contribute in any way, then you are the same as everyone else." But it just isn't so.
Blue Pulsar - 50 nrg/kin def - first toon - Liberty
Bane of Lanur - 52 nec/dark MM - Main vill - Liberty
Destan H. - 53 SS/FA brute - Farm/PvP hybrid - Freedom
Destan's Fury - 53 StJ/Regen brute - PvPer - Freedom
Destan's Shadow Gang - 53 Thug/Dark MM - PvPer - Freedom

Sermon

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 41
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #53 on: July 20, 2013, 05:25:46 AM »
If you say that a person who chooses B helps the company as much as the person who chooses A, then you're dead wrong. I am sorry that you don't think intentions matter, but they do. They color our decisions and make us do things differently. And a difference is a difference. I understand that there is the idea "If you contribute in any way, then you are the same as everyone else." But it just isn't so.

I would say that is a change of the terms of discussion.

The point under discussion was whether or not you could screw NCsoft over by buying the game cheap and not directly giving them money. Well, we are saying you can't. It was never about whether or not you can be more or less supportive. You can.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 05:33:12 AM by Sermon »

MakoMako

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 53
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #54 on: July 20, 2013, 12:46:10 PM »
Er... Exactly what Sermon said. You're not arguing the difference -intention- makes with that. You're arguing two completely different circumstances of which someone is playing.

The argument of "intention doesn't matter" is in the realm of why you play. It should play out more like this

A - You bought the game prior to the announcement, so you're not supporting NCSoft post-announcement because you're not contributing money to them anymore. You refrain from spending money on the cash shop, instead using in-game currency.
 or
B - You've moved on from the loss of CoH and purchased the game anyways, continuing to play. You refrain from using the cash shop all the same, using in-game currency, pretty much just because you don't wanna spend RL money on it.

Intentions are completely different. Results are exactly the same. You're a supporting element. -That- is the term of discussion. You can easily change up both sides in many variables, but intentions are not a factoring variable.

Also, I'm not really sure I'm following your analogy expansion very well anymore... Because if the difference in cars was like the difference in character classes/archetypes, then that'd mean you have a Blaster that you can play in practically any MMO, and the MMO you play it in influences support for it. O.o

Blue Pulsar

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 213
  • Epic Mediocrity
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #55 on: July 20, 2013, 04:21:11 PM »
I would say that is a change of the terms of discussion.

The point under discussion was whether or not you could screw NCsoft over by buying the game cheap and not directly giving them money. Well, we are saying you can't. It was never about whether or not you can be more or less supportive. You can.

My point, as the OP, the one who has the personal concerns, and the one who has been posting since day one of the thread, has never been "Can we screw over NC$oft?" and you'd be hard pressed to find me asking that at all. My point from the beginning was "Can I play the game in any facet while still staying true to my friends here on Titan and to the ideology of City of Heroes?" And in the context of that question, our intentions do matter. If I play the game like the person in my A scenario, I'm a traitor, hands down. But if I don't play at all, I'm not. My question was to ascertain peoples opinion of person B.

Er... Exactly what Sermon said. You're not arguing the difference -intention- makes with that. You're arguing two completely different circumstances of which someone is playing.

You're half wrong. I am arguing that peoples intentions change what they do. In that, I am right.

Quote
The argument of "intention doesn't matter" is in the realm of why you play. It should play out more like this

A - You bought the game prior to the announcement, so you're not supporting NCSoft post-announcement because you're not contributing money to them anymore. You refrain from spending money on the cash shop, instead using in-game currency.
 or
B - You've moved on from the loss of CoH and purchased the game anyways, continuing to play. You refrain from using the cash shop all the same, using in-game currency, pretty much just because you don't wanna spend RL money on it.

Intentions are completely different. Results are exactly the same. You're a supporting element.

Intentions change what we do. Those things that we do are the variables. Therefore, intentions effect outcomes. The person who behaves like your scenario B is more likely to monetarily support the game if they have the attitude of "moving on."

Quote
-That- is the term of discussion.

No. Reread the original post. It was never about screwing over NC$oft or trying to help or hurt the game.


Quote
Also, I'm not really sure I'm following your analogy expansion very well anymore... Because if the difference in cars was like the difference in character classes/archetypes, then that'd mean you have a Blaster that you can play in practically any MMO, and the MMO you play it in influences support for it. O.o

I didn't say it was a perfect analogy, I said it wasn't bad. If that little part trips you up and makes you not understand the rest...

I had a thug/psn MM named Kon Tagion and in his original incarnation, he was magic. When I went to TSW, I made another toon that looks a lot like him. He uses the powerset "Blood Magic" to heal his friends and damage his foes. His concept in both was that he used toxic chemicals from his own body to hurt and weaken. I wrote into his story that he lost his henchmen, though.

Our characters are in our mind and are not bound to one game.
Blue Pulsar - 50 nrg/kin def - first toon - Liberty
Bane of Lanur - 52 nec/dark MM - Main vill - Liberty
Destan H. - 53 SS/FA brute - Farm/PvP hybrid - Freedom
Destan's Fury - 53 StJ/Regen brute - PvPer - Freedom
Destan's Shadow Gang - 53 Thug/Dark MM - PvPer - Freedom

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #56 on: July 20, 2013, 04:42:05 PM »
My point, as the OP, the one who has the personal concerns, and the one who has been posting since day one of the thread, has never been "Can we screw over NC$oft?" and you'd be hard pressed to find me asking that at all. My point from the beginning was "Can I play the game in any facet while still staying true to my friends here on Titan and to the ideology of City of Heroes?" And in the context of that question, our intentions do matter. If I play the game like the person in my A scenario, I'm a traitor, hands down. But if I don't play at all, I'm not. My question was to ascertain peoples opinion of person B.


Traitor is kind of a strong word there especially when dealing with the ideology of City of Heroes. BEcause that varies from person to person and isnt some gang country cult that is pledge allegiance to, and thus there is nothing to betray in the ideology of City of Heroes itself. Now, you might be a traitor according to some and maybe your own ideology of what a gamer should do and be, but it's no way the ideology of City of Heroes.


But yeah, intentions may matter to the person and others, if they know the intentions, but to NCSOFT and GW2 intentions are very much so less important and irrelevant. If you spend $1 on GW2 it's one dollar to them. A person that moved on, that may not care much about the COH closing, and such may only spend $1 on GW2 for what ever reason. It doesnt matter it's one dollar. While someone who dispise NCSOFT and wouldf spit on their grave and view anyone that dare play the game a vile traitor that should be hanged and burned at the stake spends one dollar. Its still $1 all the same just like the person that moved on. Now there is various levels of support and that is a bit different than intent and while intent may influence it, it is not always one in the same. Someone could say that they are not supporting NCSOFT and just passing time until the a game like COH come back and only spend what they feel they need. Intent like the person in your section B. But someone who moved on, really didnt like COX much anyways can actually spend less on GW2 than the person who intentions is not to support NCSOFT, due to many factors even because they dont have the money at the moment. Intent of course is that B would spend less if he could and the other one would spend more if he could but in the end it ended up B spending more and the other one spending less, and regardless of their intentions by definition, the person B may be spending more than the person who wants to support NCSOFT and may be actually in monetary terms be supporting it more than the person who intentions is to support NCSOFT.

Think only people that do not wish to support GW2 buy or borrow the game and spend as alittle as they can? Some people support NCSOFT fully but just dont have the beans to spare but still want to play and show their support by being there and doing what they can under the definition of support in the realm of each player is part of the content.


From the looks of it, your heart is telling you which direction to go. Go for it.  And dont feel like a traitor to anything outside influence and ideology of City of Heroes. BEcause if being a traitor to a game is merely just happening to play another game, then sir, I hoped you joined the army and went to combat and supported your country in war and and support the american economy and never buy anything that imported because by that definition of, traitor to the ideology of City of Heroes, then you would be a traitor of the American ideology. WHat I'm saying that definition of traitor of ideology to a game is not a very good one and sounds a bit disturbing and kind of fall into what people been already been saying with this movement and people here acting a bit cultish and "us vs them" attitude or rather with us or you with NCSOFT"  attitude.

Sermon

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 41
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #57 on: July 20, 2013, 04:52:57 PM »
Captain Electric's comment about supporting NCSoft by playing was not directly addressed to you as OP or to your original question. It was directed at the players who were saying what is tantamount to "I don't support NCSoft, I just play their game". Implications for you and your decision were surely secondary.

I feel that if you gave our comments the benefit of the doubt, and understood that we are only trying to contextualize part of the conversation, that this back-and-forth wouldn't be necessary.

Can you play GW2 and not support NCSOFT? No.
Do your intentions in playing GW2 matter as far as NCSoft is concerned? No.
Do your intentions matter insofar as you and this forum are concerned? Probably.
 

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #58 on: July 20, 2013, 04:54:47 PM »

Can you play GW2 and not support NCSOFT? No.
Do your intentions in playing GW2 matter as far as NCSoft is concerned? No.
Do your intentions matter insofar as you and this forum are concerned? Probably.
basically this.

Blue Pulsar

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 213
  • Epic Mediocrity
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #59 on: July 20, 2013, 09:06:16 PM »
Captain Electric's comment about supporting NCSoft by playing was not directly addressed to you as OP or to your original question. It was directed at the players who were saying what is tantamount to "I don't support NCSoft, I just play their game". Implications for you and your decision were surely secondary.

Actually, his first comment I responded to was a response to me, just sans a quote. I made the statement that I would make sure not to support them even if I played their game. He unequivocally stated that by simply logging in, a person helps the game in the most important way. I proceeded to disagree.

If you show up inside the game, and you're adding to its concurrent numbers, you're supporting NCSoft in one of the ways that counts the most.

Quote
I feel that if you gave our comments the benefit of the doubt, and understood that we are only trying to contextualize part of the conversation, that this back-and-forth wouldn't be necessary.

I don't think that either of you are patently wrong in your entire assertions. I actually agree with much of the sentiment, but I think that your view is a tad extreme. I also disagree with the idea that intentions don't matter. Now, if you had said, "All actions being equal, intent matters not." then I would have agreed with you. But since, as I've stated before, intentions effect our actions, often drastically, they do matter.

Quote
Can you play GW2 and not support NCSOFT? No.
Do your intentions in playing GW2 matter as far as NCSoft is concerned? No.
Do your intentions matter insofar as you and this forum are concerned? Probably.

I agree with the first statement (but again, it's a statistically pointless fact), and I agree with the last. I do not agree with the second. If my intention is to play the game to it's fullest, buying stuff in store, organizing events, etc. Then I'm sure they are happier with that. If I go further and get other people to play, then I am doing even more. However, if my intentions are only to visit my friends and play on rare occasions, then they get less. Period. I am sure they would rather me go with the latter. Especially if my loyalty lies elsewhere and I end up pulling some of their customers away.

As far as the "back-and-forth," I hold no malcontent or rancor. I actually have more respect for those that can stand up and verbalize or textualize their feelings, regardless of their compatibility with my ideals or ideas. I also think that it is very healthy for people to air disagreements. Hashing this out with the two of you has caused me to explore my own opinions more deeply and I appreciate your candor and persistence. Honestly. My intention is never to simply argue and win, but to find common ground. However, without discussion, often unpleasant to many, that common ground can't be discovered.
Blue Pulsar - 50 nrg/kin def - first toon - Liberty
Bane of Lanur - 52 nec/dark MM - Main vill - Liberty
Destan H. - 53 SS/FA brute - Farm/PvP hybrid - Freedom
Destan's Fury - 53 StJ/Regen brute - PvPer - Freedom
Destan's Shadow Gang - 53 Thug/Dark MM - PvPer - Freedom

Blue Pulsar

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 213
  • Epic Mediocrity
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #60 on: July 20, 2013, 09:17:24 PM »
Traitor is kind of a strong word there especially when dealing with the ideology of City of Heroes.

Traitor feels like a strong word because people think its name calling. But it really isn't because it's not derogatory, it's just going by definition. In fact, I don't really think there is a derogatory word for such a person, and that's probably why it has the feel it does. However, it is also not trying to sugar coat. For example, someone who has sex for money:

Whore: derogatory
Prostitute: definition
Call girl: sugar coating

Anyone who betrays in any way, a person or an ideology that they once held in regard is technically a traitor.

As far as the "intent" issue, I think what you are trying to say is "All actions being equal, intent matters not." And with this I agree. However, if one person holds malice for NC$oft and is waiting for CoH to come back, and another does not and wants to continue with GW2, but both play the game, it would be ridiculous to think that they both will follow all the same actions given the same choices.

Quote
...if being a traitor to a game is merely just happening to play another game...

That was never said, bro. Playing an NC$oft game and actively supporting them would be traitorous to this community... at least in the eyes of some here.

Quote
WHat I'm saying that definition of traitor of ideology to a game is not a very good one and sounds a bit disturbing and kind of fall into what people been already been saying with this movement and people here acting a bit cultish and "us vs them" attitude or rather with us or you with NCSOFT"  attitude.

I ran out of breath reading that aloud. :P

Just because you don't like the definition of traitor doesn't mean it's not a good definition. There are people that have very harsh feelings about NC$oft, and I am leaning towards that side. You don't have to though. :D
Blue Pulsar - 50 nrg/kin def - first toon - Liberty
Bane of Lanur - 52 nec/dark MM - Main vill - Liberty
Destan H. - 53 SS/FA brute - Farm/PvP hybrid - Freedom
Destan's Fury - 53 StJ/Regen brute - PvPer - Freedom
Destan's Shadow Gang - 53 Thug/Dark MM - PvPer - Freedom

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #61 on: July 20, 2013, 10:02:30 PM »
Traitor feels like a strong word because people think its name calling. But it really isn't because it's not derogatory, it's just going by definition. In fact, I don't really think there is a derogatory word for such a person, and that's probably why it has the feel it does. However, it is also not trying to sugar coat. For example, someone who has sex for money:

Whore: derogatory
Prostitute: definition
Call girl: sugar coating

Anyone who betrays in any way, a person or an ideology that they once held in regard is technically a traitor.

As far as the "intent" issue, I think what you are trying to say is "All actions being equal, intent matters not." And with this I agree. However, if one person holds malice for NC$oft and is waiting for CoH to come back, and another does not and wants to continue with GW2, but both play the game, it would be ridiculous to think that they both will follow all the same actions given the same choices.

That was never said, bro. Playing an NC$oft game and actively supporting them would be traitorous to this community... at least in the eyes of some here.
Well I guess there are many views and definition of traitor. I dont think anyone who choose to play a game NCSOFT or not is a traitor at all, to the game nor community. As you said "Anyone who betrays in any way, a person or an ideology that they once held in regard is technically a traitor." If they hold that ideology of playing or being part of the COX community now means they must hate NCSOFT and must not partake in any of NCSOFT games, then yeah playing GW2 would be a traitorous act regardless of intentions. But if they view it more as the community is a bunch of people with different views some hate NCSOFT now some dont, and dont hold the ideology of they must hate NCSOFT, then if they play GW2 for example, there is nothing traitorous about it. Thus since they must hold in regard that they are supposed to hate NCSOFT, if they dont hold it in regard now or then, then they are not betraying anything, unless they hold that view in regard then they might be betraying something. And given that the people that run this forum said many times iirc, the ideology of this fourm is not to hate NCSOFT and to forbides anyone from playing any of NCSOFT game, well especially that they have other game section with GW2 come to think of it, then even if a person do play GW2 or other NCSOFT games, they are not even a traitor to this community. Maybe to a few people eyes, but then if the "traitor never held them in regards, by your definition, then they are still betraying nothing.

I just dont think that definition of traitor fits with this circumstance. WHat is a person betraying? People that hate NCSOFT? Were they ever in allegiance or pledged to that person to begin with? The community? This here is only part of the community and not the entire or even majority of the community nor I dont think the people here can speak as THE community. Titan NEtwork community maybe so, but as mentioned earlier, it has been said that there is nothing wrong with playing NCSOFT games and there is eve a section for it, for peopel that moved on. In order to be a traitor, and apply that definition, something has to be betrayed in the first place. While you may feel that you are betraying something, yourself, or some other person you pledge your allegiance to not play any NCSOFT game, that word do not apply to that circumstance as the COH community and probably the Titan Network community as a whole as you are trying to apply it to. Either way, if you dont want ot be a traitor as you put it, the solution is easy, do not play GW2 or any NCSOFT games. And you may have harsh feelings towards NCSOFT but that doesnt mean words get reassigned as if the community is something people pledged to and is a traitor for playing the other games. Just because you dont like NCSOFT doesnt mean people that may not hold that strong hate or may not like them but like GW2 are traitors since I doubt anyone pledged any allegiance to you or anyone else here.

The choice is yours. Play or dont play. If you feel like a traitor than so be it. But anyone that play or dont feel negative strongly as you towards NCSOFT doesnt mean they are betraying anything.


and by definition a call girl may be a type of prostitute as in all prostitutes are not call girls. Thus it's not always an interchangeable term nor a sugar coat way of saying prostitute.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 10:11:31 PM by JaguarX »

FatherXmas

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,646
  • You think the holidays are bad for you ...
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #62 on: July 20, 2013, 10:43:35 PM »
I got into CoH because real life friends were playing it.

I got into GW2 because real life friends were playing it.

Some of these GW2 friends played CoH and gave up because lack of free time plus subscription wasn't attractive to them.  Others couldn't get into CoH because they were more high fantasy oriented than superhero oriented.

Sorry, RL friends trump online community if push comes to shove.  None of you were wingmen for me in college.  None of you were there for me when I was in the hospital with my stroke.  None of you will be there when inevitably I bury my parents.  So if you push me to choose between RL friends and you but only if give up being a "traitor", well guess which group wins.
Tempus unum hominem manet

Twitter - AtomicSamuraiRobot@NukeSamuraiBot

Graydar

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 53
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #63 on: July 20, 2013, 11:07:40 PM »
I pride myself on not trying to not be a consumer and instead be a customer. I have demands and needs off of the company, and if they don't meet my expectations, then I just don't bother with them. NCSoft is one of these companies. Their handling of CoH was personal, as well. I refuse to give them any money, regardless of whether or not I can't play a game with friends. I have plenty of other games to play with them instead. and if I do need that game, I'll buy a game key from a dodgey chinese store or an account from a third party.

Blue Pulsar

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 213
  • Epic Mediocrity
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #64 on: July 21, 2013, 05:39:05 AM »
No offense, Jaggy, but you really, really, REALLY need to work on your TL;DR. Try forming concise sentences and breaking ideas up into paragraphs while cutting down on repetitious statements.

Well I guess there are many views and definition of traitor.

Um... No. In fact, there are very few.

Traitor:
a: one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty, or b: one who commits treason


Your next bit was hard to follow for me.


Quote
I dont think anyone who choose to play a game NCSOFT or not is a traitor at all, to the game nor community.

Kinda clear.

Quote
As you said "Anyone who betrays in any way, a person or an ideology that they once held in regard is technically a traitor." If they hold that ideology of playing or being part of the COX community now means they must hate NCSOFT and must not partake in any of NCSOFT games, then yeah playing GW2 would be a traitorous act regardless of intentions.

You just did a 180. First you say those who play another NC$oft game are "not a traitor at all" then you say that "playing GW2 would be a traitorous act regardless of intentions."

Quote
But if they view it more as the community is a bunch of people with different views some hate NCSOFT now some dont, and dont hold the ideology of they must hate NCSOFT, then if they play GW2 for example, there is nothing traitorous about it.

And then a 360, with which you lost me. Also, no one ever said you have to hate NC$oft. Some have suggested that supporting them would be insulting to the CoH community and game.

Quote
Thus since they must hold in regard that they are supposed to hate NCSOFT, if they dont hold it in regard now or then, then they are not betraying anything, unless they hold that view in regard then they might be betraying something.

First of all, I never said anything about holding an action, that we may/may not take, in regard. My earlier example (not definition) of traitor was someone who betrays a person or ideology they held in regard.

Second, you're arguing a point that was already made within my example. "betraying something we held in regard." That goes without saying that if we didn't hold it in regard, if we were never part of something or supported that thing, we can't be a traitor to it.

Quote
And given that the people that run this forum said many times iirc, the ideology of this fourm is not to hate NCSOFT and to forbides anyone from playing any of NCSOFT game, well especially that they have other game section with GW2 come to think of it, then even if a person do play GW2 or other NCSOFT games, they are not even a traitor to this community. Maybe to a few people eyes, but then if the "traitor never held them in regards, by your definition, then they are still betraying nothing.

I'd love to see this post where the admins state the ideology of this forum. However, this forum is not the sum of the CoX community. Nor does allowing people to talk about other games (NC$oft or otherwise) constitute treason.

Not to mention, I never said that playing an NC$oft game would constitute treason. I was simply looking for peoples opinions. I'd like to say I understand your position, but you flip-flop like a fish on land within the confines of a paragraph. Not to mention repeat yourself... :P

Quote
I just dont think that definition of traitor fits with this circumstance. WHat is a person betraying?

"That" definition? There is no other definition.

In order for betrayal to exist, you first have to have a sense of honor, duty, and loyalty. Those things are largely lost on youth today. It used to be that if someone wronged you, you wanted the wrong to be made right in some way before you had any more dealings with that person. NC$oft wronged us. And for many here, we would like that wrong to be righted in some way.

Now-a-days, it seams that kids will just flock to whatever makes them happy for the moment regardless of consequences or past. I fear we live in a generation that is becoming increasingly devoid of allegiance and integrity, so "traitor" simply becomes a pejorative with little meaning. Or maybe to harsh of one.

Quote
People that hate NCSOFT? Were they ever in allegiance or pledged to that person to begin with? The community? This here is only part of the community and not the entire or even majority of the community nor I dont think the people here can speak as THE community.

I think a single person can speak as the community, or at least a small part of it. It is individuals that make up the community. But, this doesn't mean that the community as a whole shares the same views. I am an American, and I can speak as such. Many Americans see eye to eye with me on a lot of stuff. Many don't. That doesn't mean I can't express myself as part of the communities I am in.

Quote
Titan NEtwork community maybe so, but as mentioned earlier, it has been said that there is nothing wrong with playing NCSOFT games and there is eve a section for it, for peopel that moved on. In order to be a traitor, and apply that definition, something has to be betrayed in the first place. While you may feel that you are betraying something, yourself, or some other person you pledge your allegiance to not play any NCSOFT game, that word do not apply to that circumstance as the COH community and probably the Titan Network community as a whole as you are trying to apply it to. Either way, if you dont want ot be a traitor as you put it, the solution is easy, do not play GW2 or any NCSOFT games. And you may have harsh feelings towards NCSOFT but that doesnt mean words get reassigned as if the community is something people pledged to and is a traitor for playing the other games. Just because you dont like NCSOFT doesnt mean people that may not hold that strong hate or may not like them but like GW2 are traitors since I doubt anyone pledged any allegiance to you or anyone else here.

Man, and I thought I was a bad rambler. You put me to shame. How often do you have to replace your keyboard? This was all more repetition.

Quote
The choice is yours. Play or dont play. If you feel like a traitor than so be it. But anyone that play or dont feel negative strongly as you towards NCSOFT doesnt mean they are betraying anything.

Again, this was clear before. If you don't feel a sense of loyalty to the game or community, then you're right. There's no betrayal. But my original topic was in the context of those who are.

Quote
and by definition a call girl may be a type of prostitute as in all prostitutes are not call girls. Thus it's not always an interchangeable term nor a sugar coat way of saying prostitute.

Actually, it most definitely is a sugar coated way of referring to a prostitute. Technically, a call girl is a prostitute that you can call by phone for appointments. However, the term has a much softer connotation than prostitute and is often used interchangeably when trying to be nice. And whore is considered a pejorative.
Blue Pulsar - 50 nrg/kin def - first toon - Liberty
Bane of Lanur - 52 nec/dark MM - Main vill - Liberty
Destan H. - 53 SS/FA brute - Farm/PvP hybrid - Freedom
Destan's Fury - 53 StJ/Regen brute - PvPer - Freedom
Destan's Shadow Gang - 53 Thug/Dark MM - PvPer - Freedom

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #65 on: July 21, 2013, 06:33:04 AM »
No offense, Jaggy, but you really, really, REALLY need to work on your TL;DR. Try forming concise sentences and breaking ideas up into paragraphs while cutting down on repetitious statements.

Um... No. In fact, there are very few.

Traitor:
a: one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty, or b: one who commits treason


Your next bit was hard to follow for me.


Kinda clear.

You just did a 180. First you say those who play another NC$oft game are "not a traitor at all" then you say that "playing GW2 would be a traitorous act regardless of intentions."

And then a 360, with which you lost me. Also, no one ever said you have to hate NC$oft. Some have suggested that supporting them would be insulting to the CoH community and game.

First of all, I never said anything about holding an action, that we may/may not take, in regard. My earlier example (not definition) of traitor was someone who betrays a person or ideology they held in regard.

Second, you're arguing a point that was already made within my example. "betraying something we held in regard." That goes without saying that if we didn't hold it in regard, if we were never part of something or supported that thing, we can't be a traitor to it.

I'd love to see this post where the admins state the ideology of this forum. However, this forum is not the sum of the CoX community. Nor does allowing people to talk about other games (NC$oft or otherwise) constitute treason.

Not to mention, I never said that playing an NC$oft game would constitute treason. I was simply looking for peoples opinions. I'd like to say I understand your position, but you flip-flop like a fish on land within the confines of a paragraph. Not to mention repeat yourself... :P

"That" definition? There is no other definition.

In order for betrayal to exist, you first have to have a sense of honor, duty, and loyalty. Those things are largely lost on youth today. It used to be that if someone wronged you, you wanted the wrong to be made right in some way before you had any more dealings with that person. NC$oft wronged us. And for many here, we would like that wrong to be righted in some way.

Now-a-days, it seams that kids will just flock to whatever makes them happy for the moment regardless of consequences or past. I fear we live in a generation that is becoming increasingly devoid of allegiance and integrity, so "traitor" simply becomes a pejorative with little meaning. Or maybe to harsh of one.

I think a single person can speak as the community, or at least a small part of it. It is individuals that make up the community. But, this doesn't mean that the community as a whole shares the same views. I am an American, and I can speak as such. Many Americans see eye to eye with me on a lot of stuff. Many don't. That doesn't mean I can't express myself as part of the communities I am in.

Man, and I thought I was a bad rambler. You put me to shame. How often do you have to replace your keyboard? This was all more repetition.

Again, this was clear before. If you don't feel a sense of loyalty to the game or community, then you're right. There's no betrayal. But my original topic was in the context of those who are.

Actually, it most definitely is a sugar coated way of referring to a prostitute. Technically, a call girl is a prostitute that you can call by phone for appointments. However, the term has a much softer connotation than prostitute and is often used interchangeably when trying to be nice. And whore is considered a pejorative.


Lately been holding my tongue towards you but I see your game now, I'll play along for a bit. As far as you are concerned in your view everyone that dont hate NCSOFT or play a game you dont like or support that game is a traitor and you seem to act like you speak for the entire community. Ok. Sorry to burst your bubble, but your type are the minority and like it or not, majority of the community have moved on and not sitting around ranting and raving and calling people traitors for playing certain games.


But if I was indeed repeating myself and you still didnt get it, then maybe the problem lies with your reading skills.  Oh I forgot that cant be it, you are perfect and righteous and cant even be wrong even when you think all prostitutes are call girls. lol. You're a funny guy.


Well there is no flip flopping going on. You're just over looking the keywords. Like I said, IF one to hold the belief you had, aka, that thier loyalty lies with the ones that think playing an NCSOFT game is an act of treason by your definition of treason you are going by, then yeah that can be viewed by treason. Also I said that it depends on the view of treason and where their loyalty and pledge of loyalty lies. If they made no pledge then they cant commit treason. If they pledged to follow the hate NCSOFT crowd and never to support them in anyway and that is their stance belief and their obligation to duty in their eyes, then by that definition, your definition, it can be treason, using your definition.

My definition of treason, playing a game one chooses is not treason at all in any manner as I didnt make no pledge to not partake in certain games or what not.

It's not rambling it's all part of making the point and it's apparent it was too long for you to read as it's very apparent since you only half read it, you missed a lot of the points and tried to fill in the blanks, and did a piss poor job at it. There are paragraphs. If you cant read those paragraphs of that length, I guess it's safe to assume you never wrote a research paper that more than a page in length or read anything more than a page in length.

And playing GW2 is not insulting to the COX community. Maybe insulting to a few people here, and that is mostly their problem but cant be said for the community as a whole and what is actually insulting to the community is the acting as if they are the whole community and or representative of 60,000-100,000 plus people when the number here probably number about 25,000 at the most. And even including those 25,000 people, many play GW2, and many dont hold that strong of a view to thing merely playing a game is a form of treason to the community here.

If you take the time to actually read what I'm saying instead of trying to pick an arguement you will realize the point I'm making. Serious read firt, respond second. It will be easier for you. If you cant take the time to read and rather resort to insulting snark, then dont bother and simply dont play GW2 if you think it's treason to your group of people. Unfortunately for you, not everyone in the world hates NCSOFT. Get over it. And many will choose to play GW2 or any other NCSOFT title that they choose regardless of what you or anyone else think is a treason like act. But maybe it's best you do the GW2 community a favor and stay away from it and stay within your finger pointing traitor calling group. Dont need people like you messing it up and definately dont need that type of attitude there or in any game. Bad for business and fouls a community's image. Yeah dont play GW2, that may be the best choice.

And sure you can express yourself as part of the community, but you seem to be coming off as if you are speaking for the entire community. As if playing GW2 is somehow betraying the community and if they are showing strong hate for NCSOFT is also treason by your definition.


Prostitute-sex worker who usually perfomr sex acts for money.

Call girl-sex worker that usually perform sex acts for money that is contacted through telephone that may or may not work for escort agency.

Simple example- A prostitute may also be a street walker, aka, not a call girl. And thus as i said before they are not always interchangable. What you are saying is basically like saying that a square is rectangle and all rectangles are squares. Which is not true. How about doing some research on it before making assumption and learning what a call girl actually is first before arguing a point where you used an analogy completely wrong and seem to blind or afraid to confess you messed it up.


The short version. Really, you are not looking for opinions. Your mind was already made up when you started this thread. So here is a direct simple question for you, as more than likely, I probably wrote more beyond your reading skill level again and since their is no pictures you probably wont get it again. Either play GW2 or not. No one gives a crap really. If you are worried about people calling you a traitor, then simply dont play and follow that group. If you are brave enough to make your own decision, make it and stop clowning around and calling or insinuating that people that decide to play certain games are traitors. Although you are free to think such thoughts, but that is your illogical thought process anly you can solve. If there is not enough hate for NCSOFT here, I'm sure there are plenty of other places where you can get your fill of NCSOFT hate.

By the way I never said the admins said anything about treason. You're the one that is viewing it as treason to play certain games or not. I said they allow and dont banish people, like your kind of self righteous people probably would do if given the power, for playing other games. In the other game section their is a thread title called GW2. That shows that many here, actually already play GW2. Guess that mean in your eyes, there are lot of traitors to the community huh. Oh well. Tough. Now live with it. Your move. Are you going to play GW2 or not? And if playing a game make me a traitor in your eyes, then so be it. I really dont give a rat's behind. You can take that at face value. What are you going to do about it? Nothing but call names and miss points and jump to assumptions and twist stuff around? You are very good at that. Almost expert level really. Oh yeah, no offense. Kinda torn my butt. More like, "If you play GW2 you are a traitor to the community." If you was torn about it, then you wouldnt have bothered to insinuate that playing GW2 is a treasonous act in the first place. You know nothing about treason. You know nothing of taking an oath to serve this country and see a person betray that and put lives in danger but have the audacity to come in here and insinuate that playing a certain game is on that same level.


Lastly while ya throwing around the tldl stuff, my post you replied to was 625 words and your reply to it was 649. So before saying something is too long, count your own words. It makes you look idiotic to say one is too long but write one that is even longer because you didnt read it all to get the point and dont like it so you look for something to argue about and insult and ignore the points. If it's really too long for you to read, although apparently your length rule you want to enforce on others dont apply to you in your eyes, then take your time and read it before replying wiht nonsense and missing the points, boy. 




Aggelakis
July 09, 2013, 12:08:24 am This forum isn't forbidden from use by people who enjoy NCsoft's other games or people who don't think NCsoft are a giant pile of horse pockey. This forum isn't forbidden from use by people who enjoy bukakke either, but that toes the line a little over the "PG13" atmosphere we *try* to keep around here.


Now show me where any admin said that playingother games especially of the NCSOFT sort was treason against the ideology of this community or even this website?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 07:46:21 AM by JaguarX »

Blue Pulsar

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 213
  • Epic Mediocrity
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #66 on: July 21, 2013, 07:54:23 AM »
Well there is no flip flopping going on. You're just over looking the keywords.

Well, I admit that your horribly unclear way of trying to make a point may have been misconstrued as flip-flopping when in actuality you were simply not making much sense. I'm not saying that you don't have a valid point, and I'm sorry,  but you aren't that great at making clear points.

Quote
My definition of treason, playing a game one chooses is not treason at all in any manner as I didnt make no pledge to not partake in certain games or what not.

I'm sorry, I don't go by individual people's definitions, but by the ones listed in actual dictionaries. And, again, if you never felt an obligation or duty to the game, then that is the case. We agree on that. Why you keep saying it like we don't, I have no idea.

Quote
It's not rambling it's all part of making the point and it's apparent it was too long for you to read as it's very apparent since you only half read it, you missed a lot of the points and tried to fill in the blanks, and did a piss poor job at it. There are paragraphs. If you cant read those paragraphs of that length, I guess it's safe to assume you never wrote a research paper that more than a page in length or read anything more than a page in length.

It is rambling if you repeat yourself and use run-on sentences. Which you just did.

It's not so much that I can't read long paragraphs. It's that, again no offense intended, your grammar is lacking, your spelling is distracting, and your typos are abundant. All making it difficult to read.

As far as writing, I have several stories under my belt. My current novel is sitting at 15k words, and my current screenplay is at well over 25k. Brevity is not exactly my strong suit either.

Quote
And playing GW2 is not insulting to the COX community. Maybe insulting to a few people here, and that is mostly their problem but cant be said for the community as a whole and what is actually insulting to the community is the acting as if they are the whole community and or representative of 60,000-100,000 plus people when the number here probably number about 25,000 at the most. And even including those 25,000 people, many play GW2, and many dont hold that strong of a view to thing merely playing a game is a form of treason to the community here.

Every single thing you said there was based on assumption.

Quote
If you take the time to actually read what I'm saying instead of trying to pick an arguement you will realize the point I'm making. Serious read firt, respond second. It will be easier for you. If you cant take the time to read and rather resort to insulting snark,...

How could I respond to nearly every sentence and not read it?

Quote
...then dont bother and simply dont play GW2 if you think it's treason to your group of people. Unfortunately for you, not everyone in the world hates NCSOFT. Get over it. And many will choose to play GW2 or any other NCSOFT title that they choose regardless of what you or anyone else think is a treason like act. But maybe it's best you do the GW2 community a favor and stay away from it and stay within your finger pointing traitor calling group. Dont need people like you messing it up and definately dont need that type of attitude there or in any game. Bad for business and fouls a community's image. Yeah dont play GW2, that may be the best choice.

Pardon me....

Sorry, had to clear all the words out of my mouth that you just put in there.

I never once said I hate NC$oft. My opinion of them is easy to guess, but your attributing statements to me that I didn't make. I also never specifically said it was traitorous to play GW2. I said I was considering playing it and asked the community for input.

(Sheesh, and you said I was insulting you...)

Quote
And sure you can express yourself as part of the community, but you seem to be coming off as if you are speaking for the entire community. As if playing GW2 is somehow betraying the community and if they are showing strong hate for NCSOFT is also treason by your definition.

Again, you repeat yourself. No, I never said that playing another game is a betrayal. I was asking for opinions on if others thought it was. And show me where I said "the entire community hates NC."

Quote
Prostitute-sex worker who usually perfomr sex acts for money.

Call girl-sex worker that usually perform sex acts for money that is contacted through telephone that may or may not work for escort agency.

Simple example- A prostitute may also be a street walker, aka, not a call girl. And thus as i said before they are not always interchangable.

I understand that you are probably quite young and don't understand the elasticity of certain words in the modern English language. I don't like it, but it's a fact. Call girl and prostitute may not be 100% synonymous, but they are interchangeable.

Quote
What you are saying is basically like saying that a square is rectangle and all rectangles are squares. Which is not true.

Um... no, I was totally not saying that.

Quote
How about doing some research on it before making assumption and learning what a call girl actually is first before arguing a point where you used an analogy completely wrong and seem to blind or afraid to confess you messed it up.

Completely wrong? You were at least two more wronger... (Sorry, had to throw in a joke. If anyone gets the reference, props to them.)

I already know what the definitions of each are, and I know I'm right. It's common knowledge that the term "call-girl" can be used as a nice way to refer to nearly any prostitute. I find it very strange that you going on a rampage such as this because I said call girls are prostitutes.


Quote
The short version. Really, you are not looking for opinions. Your mind was already made up when you started this thread.

Well, crap. Since you can obviously read my mind and know what I want better than I, I should have just PMed you.

Quote
So here is a direct simple question for you,

Oh, goody. Question time. Lay it on me.

Quote
as more than likely, I probably wrote more beyond your reading skill level again and since their is no pictures you probably wont get it again.

Seriously? More mindless insults?

Quote
Either play GW2 or not. No one gives a crap really. If you are worried about people calling you a traitor, then simply dont play and follow that group. If you are brave enough to make your own decision, make it and stop clowning around and calling or insinuating that people that decide to play certain games are traitors. Although you are free to think such thoughts, but that is your illogical thought process anly you can solve. If there is not enough hate for NCSOFT here, I'm sure there are plenty of other places where you can get your fill of NCSOFT hate.

Wait, where was the question? All I saw was you repeating things you've already said before.

Quote
By the way I never said the admins said anything about treason. You're the one that is viewing it as treason to play certain games or not. I said they allow and dont banish people, like your probably would do if given the power, for playing other games. In the other game section their is a thread title called GW2. That shows that many here, actually already play GW2. Guess that mean in your eyes, there are lot of traitors to the community huh.

Again... When did I ever call people out as traitors? Hmm? All I said was that if you held yourself to an ideology and then went back on it, you are, by definition, a traitor. It's not me. It's Merriam-Webster. If you don't feel comfortable with that, that's your problem.

Quote
Oh well. Tough. Now live with it. Your move.

Wow... just... wow.

Quote
A What are you going to do about it? Nothing but call names and miss points and jump to assumptions and twist stuff around? You are very good at that. Almost expert level really.

Wait, so first I'm an unintelligent person who can't read a long paragraph and needs pictures, and then I'm an expert at twisting words?

Quote
Oh yeah, no offense. Kinda torn my butt. More like, "If you play GW2 you are a traitor to the community." If you was torn about it, then you wouldnt have bothered to insinuate that playing GW2 is a treasonous act in the first place.

I miss my friends that went to the game and would like to see them. But on the other side of the coin, I don't really want to support anything that NC$oft does. You are taking the whole "traitor" thing waaaaaaay out of proportion. It was one tiny remark in my original post.

Quote
You know nothing about treason. You know nothing of taking an oath to serve this country and see a person betray that and put lives in danger

Are you sure you want to make that assumption?

Quote
but have the audacity to come in here and insinuate that playing a certain game is on that same level.

Show me where I said that playing GW2 is on the same level as high treason to ones country. I used the word traitor with it's core definition in mind. You are the one elevating it to something that I never intended. That's your problem, Jag.

Quote
Lastly while ya throwing around the tldl stuff, my post you replied to was 625 words and your reply to it was 649. So before saying something is too long, count your own words. It makes you look idiotic to say one is too long but write one that is even longer because you didnt read it all to get the point and dont like it so you look for something to argue about and insult and ignore the points.

Congratulations. My post was about the same size as yours. However, I was not necessarily referring to that specific post, but to your general style of posting. It would seem 90% of your posts are literally hundreds of words long. This one, for instance is well over 1k.

I never suggested that you were less than an intelligent person (as you have done many times to me), I only suggested that you are not great at getting your point across. And, at the same time you are saying I do a piss poor job of understand you, you seem to think I am calling people traitors for playing when the very reason I considered the game is because my friends are there. You see the irony?

Look, Jag. I have no problem with you. We obviously don't see eye to eye, and that's just fine. I am not calling anyone a traitor. I guess I just feel a strong loyalty to the ideology of CoX and it's community. Sure, the community makes the game, but the game also makes the community. NC$oft wronged us, and I am not happy about it. If I have to betray my own personal feelings about them to see my friends, I just might. That is why I am torn.

I came here looking for opinions, and I accepted the answers to my question as what they were, even the ones I don't necessarily agree with. What I did take offense to is a few people in the thread suggesting my premise was wrong. That is why I argue.
Blue Pulsar - 50 nrg/kin def - first toon - Liberty
Bane of Lanur - 52 nec/dark MM - Main vill - Liberty
Destan H. - 53 SS/FA brute - Farm/PvP hybrid - Freedom
Destan's Fury - 53 StJ/Regen brute - PvPer - Freedom
Destan's Shadow Gang - 53 Thug/Dark MM - PvPer - Freedom

Blue Pulsar

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 213
  • Epic Mediocrity
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #67 on: July 21, 2013, 08:07:32 AM »
I just noticed that you came back and added another few hundred words to your post. And they are...

Lately been holding my tongue towards you but I see your game now, I'll play along for a bit. As far as you are concerned in your view everyone that dont hate NCSOFT or play a game you dont like or support that game is a traitor and you seem to act like you speak for the entire community. Ok. Sorry to burst your bubble, but your type are the minority and like it or not, majority of the community have moved on and not sitting around ranting and raving and calling people traitors for playing certain games.

Quote
Aggelakis
July 09, 2013, 12:08:24 am This forum isn't forbidden from use by people who enjoy NCsoft's other games or people who don't think NCsoft are a giant pile of horse pockey. This forum isn't forbidden from use by people who enjoy bukakke either, but that toes the line a little over the "PG13" atmosphere we *try* to keep around here.


Now show me where any admin said that playingother games especially of the NCSOFT sort was treason against the ideology of this community or even this website?

I ask you once again... Please, please, please show me where I said that anyone playing GW2 is a traitor.
Blue Pulsar - 50 nrg/kin def - first toon - Liberty
Bane of Lanur - 52 nec/dark MM - Main vill - Liberty
Destan H. - 53 SS/FA brute - Farm/PvP hybrid - Freedom
Destan's Fury - 53 StJ/Regen brute - PvPer - Freedom
Destan's Shadow Gang - 53 Thug/Dark MM - PvPer - Freedom

Mistress Urd

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 506
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #68 on: July 21, 2013, 08:46:58 AM »
Blue: I think people will make their own choice(s) on the matter. I'd like to be the customer lost forever for the poor handling of the shutdown.


I'd say more with less sugar coating, but at this point some folks don't want discussions to go to "that level" so I'll stop here.

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #69 on: July 21, 2013, 08:47:21 AM »
Well, I admit that your horribly unclear way of trying to make a point may have been misconstrued as flip-flopping when in actuality you were simply not making much sense. I'm not saying that you don't have a valid point, and I'm sorry,  but you aren't that great at making clear points.


I think my point was very clear. If they wasnt instead of going straight for insults, you could have simply asked me to make it a bit more clear for you. But you didnt.

I'm sorry, I don't go by individual people's definitions, but by the ones listed in actual dictionaries. And, again, if you never felt an obligation or duty to the game, then that is the case. We agree on that. Why you keep saying it like we don't, I have no idea.

Because you keep saying like it is treason.

It is rambling if you repeat yourself and use run-on sentences. Which you just did.

Guess you cant see the periods. They are there. Look closer.


It's not so much that I can't read long paragraphs. It's that, again no offense intended, your grammar is lacking, your spelling is distracting, and your typos are abundant. All making it difficult to read.

More insults?  Again as I said, yes guess what I'm repeating myself, if you cant understand the point or its that difficult to read, the proper thing to do it just simply ask for the point to be made clearer but you seem to cant do that and instead go for insults instead. When you throw out insults like you did, then sometimes a person may reply in kind. Just because you dont agree with a point doesnt mean an insult is needed.

As far as writing, I have several stories under my belt. My current novel is sitting at 15k words, and my current screenplay is at well over 25k. Brevity is not exactly my strong suit either.

If brevity is not your strong point either, then dont look down your nose at my posts saying they are tldr even thought the dr part is probably true. What? Only you are allowed to make long posts? And any that may be longer than yours is against the rules? Is it in the dictionary too that you are the final say in how long or short a post should be? Last I check, I dont recall you being in that section. You seem to have a problem with replying in a very condescending tone to any opinion, even after asking for them as you stated many times, that you dont agree with. It make it looks like you are fishing for agreements and ready to attack any that you dont agree with. 


How could I respond to nearly every sentence and not read it?

You didnt respond to every sentence and your reply made it apparent you didnt read every sentence. You chose some, took it way out of context. Talking about flip flopping first you said you couldnt read it, now you're saying that you read every sentence. Which one is it. Not to mention didnt you reply as part of your previous post tldr, which means too long didnt read? Did you read it or not. One sentence and or reply you said you did. The next, it was too hard for you to read or was too long.


(Sheesh, and you said I was insulting you...)

Again, you repeat yourself. No, I never said that playing another game is a betrayal. I was asking for opinions on if others thought it was. And show me where I said "the entire community hates NC."

Show me where I said you said that the entire community hates NC? I said that the entire community dont hate NCSOFT, but did I say that you said that? If I did show me.



I understand that you are probably quite young and don't understand the elasticity of certain words in the modern English language. I don't like it, but it's a fact. Call girl and prostitute may not be 100% synonymous, but they are interchangeable.

And I'm probably not young as you think and I understand words just fine. And again another insult.  First with treason you talk about you only go by the definition that is written in the dictionary. Now you want to twist the term call girl as meaning, to you, your made up definition of it, to mean all prostitutes and argue that not all prostitutes are call girls, by actual definition.  So as I said, you are still saying that all prostitutes are call girls. You're seem to have a problem with the dictionary definition.

Defintion of call girl-
a prostitute with whom an appointment may be made by telephone.


As I said, not all prostitutes make appointments by telephone and the example i gave was streetwalker. Which by webster-merriam definition is not a call girl.



Oh, goody. Question time. Lay it on me.


Wait, where was the question? All I saw was you repeating things you've already said before.

The question was, are you going to play GW2 or not. Decide already and get on with it.



And as I said in my first reply about traitor. Not everyone hold that ideology. So why do you insist on trying to argue that part? If you read my statements instead of reading only bits and pieces you could have got that. If you hold that ideology, fine, but not everyone do. It seems you're the one with a problem with those that dont hold that ideology.



Wow... just... wow.

Wait, so first I'm an unintelligent person who can't read a long paragraph and needs pictures, and then I'm an expert at twisting words?

Yeah. Instead you take bits and pieces and a very small section and twist it around instead of readingf the whole thing and maybe getting a clearer picture of what I'm saying. And again, if you cant get the clear picture, you could have simply asked. Did you do that? Nope. Again, insults, ignoring the points, and twisting a few pieces to have something to argue about.




I miss my friends that went to the game and would like to see them. But on the other side of the coin, I don't really want to support anything that NC$oft does. You are taking the whole "traitor" thing waaaaaaay out of proportion. It was one tiny remark in my original post.


Show me where I said that playing GW2 is on the same level as high treason to ones country. I used the word traitor with it's core definition in mind. You are the one elevating it to something that I never intended. That's your problem, Jag.

Did you not say treason is treason? That was the point I was making with the definition of treason. Depending on view it may not be the same. You was adament to say that all treason is the same. even by posting the actual definition. I dont think I have to show you anything. You keep asking for evidence from me. I showed you evidence that the admin said that this forum isnt for only NCSOFT haters. Yet you didnt show me a post where they said that playing GW2 is against the ideology of this community. Even on community level, that treason word should not even have been elevated to there. In fact it probably shouldnt even been part of the equation like you made it at all.

Congratulations. My post was about the same size as yours. However, I was not necessarily referring to that specific post, but to your general style of posting. It would seem 90% of your posts are literally hundreds of words long. This one, for instance is well over 1k.

So no one is allowed to make posts longer than yours? Show me a dictionary or rule book for that matter that states that?



I never suggested that you were less than an intelligent person (as you have done many times to me), I only suggested that you are not great at getting your point across. And, at the same time you are saying I do a piss poor job of understand you, you seem to think I am calling people traitors for playing when the very reason I considered the game is because my friends are there. You see the irony?



Never suggested I was less than intelligent person? Son, you did so many times, even within this most current reply. Then if you dont think it's treason, or even could be considered treason, then why even ask if it is treason to play GW2 if you already know it's not, which is the point I was making. You basically nullified your entire point and finally get the netire point I was making. Playing GW2 is not treason. But you decided to argue by defintion in the dictionary it is treason against the community.

I'm not saying your question is wrong. I'm saying that you thinking that playing or thinking that playing GW2 could be is or might be treason is wrong. You introduced treason into the equation. And if it has nothing to do with chooseing of the game or the context of what you are saying then why even bother introducing it into your statements as if playing an NCSOFT game is wrong? An answer without insults would be appreciated if you dont like being insulted. And if you dont understand something, just simply ask. It aint going to to kill you nor is a form of treason to  not assume, attack a person, insult them instead of simply asking them to clarify.

yeah you asked for opinions I gave it, especially on the treason part and what you do? Ignore most of the points, insult me,  and focused more on grammar and length. And I replied in kind. Even with the other posts some are long, but I can guess that I didnt break no record here in length. Either way, I dont think the length is the issue and that is a cover and it's that you dont agree thus you ignore all the points and use length as a scapegoat instead of again simply asking for clarification. I'm not sure what you expected but if you attack me, I might attack back. Dont attack me and act civilized then you'll get that from me as well.   





Look, Jag. I have no problem with you. We obviously don't see eye to eye, and that's just fine. I am not calling anyone a traitor. I guess I just feel a strong loyalty to the ideology of CoX and it's community. Sure, the community makes the game, but the game also makes the community. NC$oft wronged us, and I am not happy about it. If I have to betray my own personal feelings about them to see my friends, I just might. That is why I am torn.


Yeah not seeing eye to eye is fine with me. But when you jump into insults then that make it seems like you have a problem with me. Then when it seems you have a problem with me, I might then have a problem with you. Dont insult me I wont insult you. Come at me with a condencending tone, I might reply in kind. And there you go, again with the ideology of the community. Maybe I'm looking at it from a different way than you. I'm looking at that statement as you say as saying that there is one ideology of that community and one have a strong loyalty to that ideology which playing GW2 a NCSOFT game can be treasonous to that ideology. And in reply to that I'm saying I dont think there is one ideology of this community in that regards but more so individual ideology. 

In the end, either way, you have to decide what is more important, friends or you own ideals. Only you can make that choice. Is betraying your own personal feelings, your own words-  "betray my own personal feelings", just in case you forget, worth being with friends? If so, go for it. If not, see them in some other game. The worse it is treason to your own, I repeat, your own beliefs, not to the community or the ideology of the community. 


Nebularian

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 167
    • Voyages of Imagination
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2013, 05:05:44 PM »
WOW.

Looking at all the posts here, I see many good arguments for both sides.   I guess it does all boil down to what your own convictions tell you.

I played GW1  and thought it was okay...and was actually looking forward to at least trying GW2....before they closed COH.

Since then, I have decided to vote with my wallet.  For myself, my convictions will not let me support NCSoft in any fashion.   And Yes, I do hope that enough people would join in with that.  And yes, even hurt (financially) any organization that works with NCSoft like ArenaNet (perhaps that would warn others off dealing with the asses).

In the final analysis, it comes down to what your convictions are.  Just be aware that your participation in the game does help NCSoft.  It may be a drop in the bucket....but it is a drop that would not be there if you stayed away.

I would not go so far as to say that a COH'er playing GW2 is a traitor.  Wrong maybe, but not a traitor.

Each person should make up their own mind about it....with the understanding that not everyone will agree with your final decision.   But that's okay.....even friends don't always agree on things :)   But they stay friends :)
(@Nebularian)(AKA Dylan Clearbrook) Champion/Virtue - Nebularian/Sgt. Raines/Nurse Darklight/Cosmicana-Cosmicella/Mercy Vengeance/Angel Sprite/Suzy Uzi/Blue Arc/Dark Carolyne 
 Website: The Continuum Worlds

Aggelakis

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,001
Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #71 on: July 21, 2013, 07:45:14 PM »
Okie dokie. So. I'm locking this thread now. It's basically run its course about six times over.

Play GW if you want. Don't play GW if you don't want. Curse NCsoft until your dying days if you want. Remain neutral regarding NCsoft. Praise NCsoft. We can't tell you to do or not do something regarding patronage. You have to decide whether you want to do that yourself, and use YOUR OWN reasons - don't cop someone else's reasons and do something, because that makes you a sheep, not a thinker.

Playing GW2 doesn't make you a traitor (except in GG's eyes, but one person doesn't count). Not playing GW2 doesn't make you a saint (except in GG's eyes....again, one person doesn't count).

Choose for yourself what you will do.
Bob Dole!! Bob Dole. Bob Dole! Bob Dole. Bob Dole. Bob Dole... Bob Dole... Bob... Dole...... Bob...


ParagonWiki
OuroPortal