Author Topic: Clairvoyance  (Read 12065 times)

Joshex

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Clairvoyance
« on: July 09, 2013, 08:16:51 PM »
weather you had a premonition or some sort of vision regarding CoH and the business around it. let it out here.

Last night I believe I was observing the world from another person's perspective. I was in some company and they had just decided to make an offer of $10 million for the IP of city of heroes.

I do not know if NCsoft will bite, but For some reason I am certain an offer has been made by someone. Or maybe it's just me being over hopeful again.

meh whatever, anyone else have any similar occurences?
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

JaguarX

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2013, 12:23:14 AM »
twice.

One was about the beginning I couldnt tell in this dream if it was COX re-release or another COX game, but it was a little drab, one of the first few weeks of release, not many other players and most gripng about the emptyness and the long wait for an empty game.

About 4 nights later in another dream same game, but more populated excitement about an up coming issue release. From the convo, about two or three years later than the first one I'm guessing. Lots of people. Last thing I remember is someone mentioning an article about it is the time of the super hero mmo.

Captain Electric

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2013, 03:07:18 AM »
I can see the future, but only by a few milliseconds, and only for my own actions. Like when I'm about to pick my nose, I'll think about it right before it happens.

Aggelakis

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2013, 04:40:04 AM »
I can see the future, but only by a few milliseconds, and only for my own actions. Like when I'm about to pick my nose, I'll think about it right before it happens.
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Captain Electric

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2013, 07:15:54 AM »
I need a "whistling innocently" emote.  ;D

Taceus Jiwede

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2013, 09:04:10 AM »
I can see the future, but only by a few milliseconds, and only for my own actions. Like when I'm about to pick my nose, I'll think about it right before it happens.

I really liked this joke :)

OzonePrime

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2013, 11:32:27 AM »
I can see the future, but only by a few milliseconds, and only for my own actions. Like when I'm about to pick my nose, I'll think about it right before it happens.

LOL!

thunderforce

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2013, 02:43:54 PM »
I can see the future, but only by a few milliseconds, and only for my own actions. Like when I'm about to pick my nose, I'll think about it right before it happens.

Like when I fell off the fence and broke my jaw, I definitely thought "Oh, [expletive-deleted]" at the top of the arc. Definite future prediction.

Ironwolf

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2013, 02:58:12 PM »
I know this is a very odd thing but I almost never dream or if I do I don't recall them. However if I do dream they almost always 90% or so come true.

An example is I recall maybe 1-2 dreams a year. I was 16 years old and had a dream of being in Detroit and in a large room full of people filling out a government form. Fast forward 2 years later and I was joining the military and was at the induction center and I walked into the exact room. I knew in advance what every person was going to say and what the forms were. It was just one of the few things that have happened the same way.

Now what is odd is the first few times it happened as a child I was locked , afraid to do anything and it played out as I had dreamed. Then I made a decision to change it - could I alter what was happening? Yes, I found I could do it and when I did change the flow of what happened I had an odd feeling of things spinning differently and I would lose the thread of what was going to happen next.

I do know this sounds very odd but *shrugs* it does happen to me and is a very disconcerting thing when it does.

thunderforce

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2013, 03:12:49 PM »
An example is I recall maybe 1-2 dreams a year. I was 16 years old and had a dream of being in Detroit and in a large room full of people filling out a government form. Fast forward 2 years later and I was joining the military and was at the induction center and I walked into the exact room. I knew in advance what every person was going to say and what the forms were. It was just one of the few things that have happened the same way.

This is quite a common form of deja vu. As I understand it, what's really going on is that dreams are pretty incoherent messes of mental images, and the brain invents a memory later as to what was going on. So it's not that you actually knew what every person was going to say - obviously impossible - but that afterwards, you have an entirely synthetic memory of knowing it in advance.

Mantic

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2013, 04:04:03 PM »
There's a reason this is my nick. My perception of precognition is mundane, not supernatural, but that may be what you guys are doing in your sleep: fitting all the puzzle pieces together on a subconscious level.

How reliable your insights may be is obviously going to be relative to how much actual information you've been privy to. You might have more information than you consciously know. Or you might just be extrapolating wishful thinking into a possible scenario.

Personally, I've had no particular insight into anything related to CoX. But I might be picking my nose soon.

Shenku

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2013, 04:54:43 PM »
Well, I've had some moments of clairvoyance before, usually from a dream long before the event actually took place, though these are difficult to decipher, and most times don't have anything to do with anything important... Although, I did once do it while fully conscious, although it wasn't an image in my head so much as a huge feeling of dread while waiting(on foot) for a train to finish passing the railroad crossing in front of me.

I was standing a few feet away, maybe about 10 feet from the tracks, when a strange ominous feeling washed over me, and it felt like the train (A very long freight train) was looming over me... It's really hard to describe the feeling, but suffice to say, it scared me a little, and I took more than a few steps back from the train figuring if it really felt that bad to stand that close, some distance wouldn't hurt... A few seconds after I did this, an empty train car (one of those ones with the large metal structure in the middle and no outer shell, and cables crisscrossing the entire length of the car) whipped past me with a loose roughly 20-30 foot cable flailing around on my side of the tracks. Had I not moved, it probably would have cleaved me in half... I haven't had that kind of feeling once since then, but I'll never forget it...

Then of course, there's this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks_UHmaZcSg

And this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIieq0a130c

Which in a way, can sort of explain the possibility of actual Clairvoyance (And not simply jumbled Deja Vu that the brain incorrectly induces from incomplete information), at least theoretically... Essentially, for a brief instant, your brain's molecules might be vibrating at the same frequency as that of another universe, allowing you to catch brief glimpses of it. Time being relative, there's nothing to stop these other universes from being slightly ahead of us, so if what you see happens in the future, it's not out of the question, because that other universe may be ahead of our own. And since our molecules are always vibrating, there's always the chance that as new universes split off from our own, our vibrations might match for brief moments allowing some people to momentarily be in sync with that other universe. So while I may not have had it happen to me due to what ever that feeling was(maybe subconsciously, I picked it up from another universe that was ahead of ours, not sure), in another universe I was killed by that stray train cable that day... I just made myself a little depressed thinking about it like that... :(

Side note, since we're all technically partially on Mars right now, according to Michio Kaku's second video there... Congratulations! We colonized Mars already and didn't even know it! Take that, NASA! :P

thunderforce

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2013, 04:58:25 PM »
I was standing a few feet away, maybe about 10 feet from the tracks, when a strange ominous feeling washed over me, and it felt like the train (A very long freight train) was looming over me... It's really hard to describe the feeling, but suffice to say, it scared me a little, and I took more than a few steps back from the train figuring if it really felt that bad to stand that close, some distance wouldn't hurt... A few seconds after I did this, an empty train car (one of those ones with the large metal structure in the middle and no outer shell, and cables crisscrossing the entire length of the car) whipped past me with a loose roughly 20-30 foot cable flailing around on my side of the tracks.

This is coincidence. We don't hear from the hundreds of millions of people who had vague feelings of dread while standing on railway platforms, stepped back a bit, and felt a little sheepish when nothing happened; we hear from the one who happened, by pure chance, to have one just before something did happen.

Quote
Essentially, for a brief instant, your brain's molecules might be vibrating at the same frequency as that of another universe, allowing you to catch brief glimpses of it.

Bluntly, this is nonsense.

Shenku

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2013, 05:02:52 PM »
Bluntly, this is nonsense.

According to quantum physics, it's not nonsense at all.

thunderforce

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2013, 05:05:33 PM »
According to quantum physics, it's not nonsense at all.

I'm afraid you are going to find this quite rude, but no. You have fundamentally misunderstood - this is exactly the same sort of rubbish with half-digested bits of quantum theory that people like homeopaths come up with. Trust me, if you think you've come up with some way quantum theory implies precognition (or indeed clairvoyance, although aside from the thread title I don't think we've mentioned it), you're mistaken.

Shenku

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2013, 05:33:50 PM »
I'm afraid you are going to find this quite rude, but no. You have fundamentally misunderstood - this is exactly the same sort of rubbish with half-digested bits of quantum theory that people like homeopaths come up with. Trust me, if you think you've come up with some way quantum theory implies precognition (or indeed clairvoyance, although aside from the thread title I don't think we've mentioned it), you're mistaken.

So, why are you being so vehemently argumentative at a proposed "theory"? Let me say it again, it's just a "theory"... I never said it was fact or that I could prove it, it was just posed as one possible explanation. Explain to me how it is that I'm so wrong with my "theory"...? Again, it's a "theory" and nothing more than that... Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't mean it's not possible... That's like saying that the Earth is round in early human history while everyone around you insisted it was flat... Just because you think one way, doesn't mean that the other can't be possible too...

So my understanding of quantum mechanics/physics is limited, and I'm not exactly a multi-PHD carrying scientist, nor do I even have the slightest inkling of how to do the calculations for such a probability... So what... At least I'm trying to learn the concepts, which is more than I can say for like 90% of the rest of the country that simply ignores the science and plays Angry Birds on their smart phones all day...

Heck, did you even watch the videos I posted? I mean seriously, you replied so quickly(with-in three minutes), and the videos were a combined like 7-8 minutes or so, you couldn't possibly have watched them... What Michio was saying in those two videos is not that far from what I was saying for my theory... If you're calling me wrong, than you're calling him, one of the smartest people on the planet, wrong...

thunderforce

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2013, 05:46:29 PM »
So, why are you being so vehemently argumentative at a proposed "theory"?

I'm not; I'm just pointing out it's nonsense. It's not a theory; it's some words stuck together in a way that might appear superficially plausible if you don't really know what they mean in context.

Quote
Heck, did you even watch the videos I posted?

Why would I? Michio Kaku is not actually going to be explaining how precognition is possible. (Indeed, in one of his books, he singles it out as one of the "most impossible" impossibilities, utterly at odds with the laws of physics as we understand them now). You have misinterpreted them.

Let me try an analogy. Suppose I say "The Positron taskforce from City of Heroes could take many hours to complete, so you would need the Stamina power to give your character enough endurance to get through it." If you'd never played City of Heroes, that would seem perfectly plausible. That's what "stamina" is, isn't it? But if you have, you know that's pure gibberish; that's not what "stamina" and "endurance" mean in this context. It's not a "theory", it's just nonsense.

"Essentially, for a brief instant, your brain's molecules might be vibrating at the same frequency as that of another universe, allowing you to catch brief glimpses of it. Time being relative, there's nothing to stop these other universes from being slightly ahead of us, so if what you see happens in the future, it's not out of the question, because that other universe may be ahead of our own." is that sort of gibberish.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 06:04:20 PM by thunderforce »

Shenku

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2013, 08:27:48 PM »
Why would I?

Simple... To understand the context of what I was suggesting... But as I can clearly see from the tone of your posts, you're just trolling now, and obviously no one's ideas have any meaning except your own... Forgive me for thinking that in a free speaking world that I had the right to speak my mind and express ideas, I'll go back into my corner and shut up now, since obviously my thoughts and ideas don't matter to anyone...

I guess I'll just go back to your version of reality where the world is flat, because new/different ideas are dangerous things, and we can't be having those... ???

Captain Electric

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2013, 12:02:38 AM »
Aw for Pete's sake, Shenku, Thunder isn't trolling. If you want to use REAL science and scientific figures to prop up fringe science off-the-cuff (off your cuff, in particular), then you can expect to be challenged vehemently. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with the debate (yes it's impassioned, but in this particular arena, if you can't stand having your theories labeled nonsense, you shouldn't enter). But for crying out loud, Thunder, just watch the frakking videos, they're under 10 minutes long combined; if that's what Shenku's ammunition consists of, it would be much easier (and more diplomatic) for you to argue the facts if they're indeed not on Shenku's side.

Parallel universes may exist with slightly different variables. Indeed, the chances of worlds existing very similar to our own is high enough even within the trillions of galaxies inside our own universe, especially when you figure that our range of sight will probably always leave most of the universe's contents outside our sphere of awareness as it continues to expand faster than the speed of light.

None of this (that I'm aware of) means we can expand our awareness by vibrating our molecules differently, but I'd much rather have this debate with Michio Kaku than either of you.  :P

srmalloy

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2013, 05:23:38 PM »
This is coincidence. We don't hear from the hundreds of millions of people who had vague feelings of dread while standing on railway platforms, stepped back a bit, and felt a little sheepish when nothing happened; we hear from the one who happened, by pure chance, to have one just before something did happen.

Bluntly, this is nonsense.

We also don't hear from the people who had vague feelings of dread while standing on railway platforms, shrugged it off as nothing, and were killed when a runaway railcar barrelled past. While the self-selection bias is real, it does not by itself rule out that premonitions exist; however, evidence would suggest that the experience is at best extremely rare and extremely unpredictable, and is therefore not analyzable without a data collection that would be difficult if not impossible to carry out. Your experience is your experience, but it is impossible to make any sort of projection based on individual accounts.

JaguarX

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2013, 05:32:38 PM »
We also don't hear from the people who had vague feelings of dread while standing on railway platforms, shrugged it off as nothing, and were killed when a runaway railcar barrelled past. While the self-selection bias is real, it does not by itself rule out that premonitions exist; however, evidence would suggest that the experience is at best extremely rare and extremely unpredictable, and is therefore not analyzable without a data collection that would be difficult if not impossible to carry out. Your experience is your experience, but it is impossible to make any sort of projection based on individual accounts.
tell me about it.

There was this shooting on the base a few years back. I always like clockwork at the same time just about every day (aka Mon-fri.) go to this shoppette and grab a Rockstar. Except this one day. I didnt go at my usual time. I decided to wait an half hour later then found out the shoppette was surrounded by MP, an ambulance, and taped off. Apparently a disgruntled retiree decided to go in and shoot a few of the cashiers. If I went at my usual time, and shrugged off the gut feeling, I would have been there and very possible not be here today as one of the cashiers he shot was one I talked to each day when I made my purchase.

Joshex

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2013, 02:33:56 PM »
I've always been able to randomly see the future, when I was little I had a dream that me and my brother were outside and we madea new friend, I even heard her name in the dream.

so the next day I take my brother out and sure enough everything is exactly like in the dream, so then I call out the girl's name and a girl stops playing baseball in the field and comes over, sure enough it was her name. and she has a very noncommon name, I have not met someone with her name again since then.


2, I was at boyscout camp and had laid down on my cot to relax, suddenly a vission came, nothing incredible, I saw that one of the parents of the other children would walk down the trail a certain way and say exact certain things. He did.

When I woke up and got out of my tent and he started walking towards me I realized that I had the opportunity to change time itself. so I tried, he approached me and was saying exactly what I heard in my dream, at first I copied him exactly, then that didn't work, so then I started saying "stop stop! I'm trying to change time! don't finish that sentence!" I yelled it. Everything went gray and colorless, no matter what I said it was like the guy couldn't hear me, it's like my lips were closed, I tried waving my hand in his face but he couldn't see it. a few moments later color returned to the world and I asked him if he had heard me telling him to stop speaking at that moment and seen me waving my hand, he replied no.

Some futures I have forseen were unchangeable. and maybe the meaning of it all was quite simply so that in the future I would know this: life is like a book, certain parts are already written and can't be changed, but there are blank pages in between, and we can do whatever we like in those blank pages but it can't retcon the past or future it has to start at the beginning and end at the next mandatory segment.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Captain Electric

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2013, 05:25:29 AM »
If time is more than conceptual as some physicists theorize, the consequence of that would be our existing along more than the three-axis space we're all accustomed to perceiving ourselves in. In fact some physicists have theorized an 11-plus-dimension universe/multiverse, but for the sake of this conversation, I'm only bringing up the fourth: Time.

Josh, you've admitted you're kind of a wacky guy, and I'm not going to argue with you. It should come as no surprise that I'm not convinced that you have psychic powers. If people had demonstrable and reliable psychic powers, we would be living in a much different world. Demonstrable and reliable psychic powers wouldn't just be talked about in new age books and tabloids and Internet forums; they'd be showcased on the front page of the New York times above the fold. Proof of these abilities would be an enormously valuable and unique discovery. Science books would need to be revised. Historical knowledge would need to be scrutinized if it were discovered that people with reliable psychic abilities have existed before the current era. Laws would need to be revised and technology would surely be created to measure and detect psychic activity by terrorists, spies and criminals. Psychic police officers would face the ultimate moral dilemma: stop a crime before it happened, or let the crime happen in order to bring provable charges against the criminal. (To say nothing of less-ethical police states that may develop over time.)

Having said all of that, I vaguely suspect there could be a theoretical loophole that could explain psychic phenomena: if we truly are four-dimensional beings, then we might be as blind as moles to all but a fraction of our whole selves. What does a four-dimensional being really look like? If time is a constant axis and not merely a concept, then that axis has no past, present or future. It simply IS. My existence on that axis might appear strange and unfamiliar, a long flat worm stretching down the length of the axis, every tiny fraction of an inch possessing its own conscious awareness of its location along the axis but no other. In a universe like this, the entirety of consciousness would be very similar to the page-by-page nature of a book (for us, but perhaps not for beings living on higher dimensional planes). Psychic abilities would be an impressive feat, but they would not entail "seeing into the future" so much as gaining a greater physical awareness of your four-dimensional, physical body. But before you say to yourself, "sounds good to me!", consider the extreme unlikelihood of being able to do something like that. It would be more amazing than being able to see the back of your head using only your eyes, no mirror. Which, of course, no one can do.

JaguarX

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2013, 05:56:37 AM »
If time is more than conceptual as some physicists theorize, the consequence of that would be our existing along more than the three-axis space we're all accustomed to perceiving ourselves in. In fact some physicists have theorized an 11-plus-dimension universe/multiverse, but for the sake of this conversation, I'm only bringing up the fourth: Time.

Josh, you've admitted you're kind of a wacky guy, and I'm not going to argue with you. It should come as no surprise that I'm not convinced that you have psychic powers. If people had demonstrable and reliable psychic powers, we would be living in a much different world. Demonstrable and reliable psychic powers wouldn't just be talked about in new age books and tabloids and Internet forums; they'd be showcased on the front page of the New York times above the fold. Proof of these abilities would be an enormously valuable and unique discovery. Science books would need to be revised. Historical knowledge would need to be scrutinized if it were discovered that people with reliable psychic abilities have existed before the current era. Laws would need to be revised and technology would surely be created to measure and detect psychic activity by terrorists, spies and criminals. Psychic police officers would face the ultimate moral dilemma: stop a crime before it happened, or let the crime happen in order to bring provable charges against the criminal. (To say nothing of less-ethical police states that may develop over time.)

Having said all of that, I vaguely suspect there could be a theoretical loophole that could explain psychic phenomena: if we truly are four-dimensional beings, then we might be as blind as moles to all but a fraction of our whole selves. What does a four-dimensional being really look like? If time is a constant axis and not merely a concept, then that axis has no past, present or future. It simply IS. My existence on that axis might appear strange and unfamiliar, a long flat worm stretching down the length of the axis, every tiny fraction of an inch possessing its own conscious awareness of its location along the axis but no other. In a universe like this, the entirety of consciousness would be very similar to the page-by-page nature of a book (for us, but perhaps not for beings living on higher dimensional planes). Psychic abilities would be an impressive feat, but they would not entail "seeing into the future" so much as gaining a greater physical awareness of your four-dimensional, physical body. But before you say to yourself, "sounds good to me!", consider the extreme unlikelihood of being able to do something like that. It would be more amazing than being able to see the back of your head using only your eyes, no mirror. Which, of course, no one can do.

Sometimes I wonder how much of this world and realm and the workings of possibilities have yet to be be mainstream discovered. The guy that discovered bacteria was considered a nutcase and they were ready to lock him up into a mental asylum because in those days it was fact diseases were caused by spiritual means not some little living organism that nobody can see. Even when it was shown throug ha microscope, he still had hard time convincing them those germs were the cause of illnesses. Today, it's consider nutcase to deny that illnesses are caused by these organisms and suggest that all illnesses are spiritual in nature might get some strange unusual looks.


I think in compare as much as we think we know of this world the realm and how it works, I think we probably only actually know about 0.000001% and most of that is not for sure just a best guess with the information we have at the moment. In about  500-1,000 years or so, people will look back on things that are considereda sure thing now, and wonder "wow they were stupid thinking it worked like that." Just like at one point in time it was fact the world was flat and any suggestion to the contrary, ya was crazy. Now come to find out, those crazies were right, the world is round and the people that thought it or think it's flat is crazy.

Mantic

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2013, 07:26:20 PM »
This is part of why I choose to view instances of (particularly verified) precognition as mundane. Our physical perceptions as best we understand them are very limited, even relative to what other still-limited instruments have been able to tell us about the world we live in. Much of our conscious mental activity seems geared to sorting out noise even from these limited senses; finding simplified representations that we can deal with quickly. But REM sleep shows evidence of being both a sorting period for data and a rehearsal period for extrapolated experience.

If we are actually able to sense, on some subconscious level, any additional cues about physical future moments or even remote information, that may be a factor in those internal sorting and simulation periods. As Captain Electric said, it seems unlikely that we actually do have such abilities, just because we don't have a very reliable record of taking advantage of them. Then again, sometimes our cognitive prioritization mechanisms prevent us seeing things that are right there before our eyes, or hearing things that are perfectly audible, and we miss out taking good advantage of the senses we are certain about.

If such sixth or seventh senses do exist, they might even be vestigial, having proven less than useful far back in our evolution, when our brains were not nearly sophisticated enough to deal with them. Our brains may still not be capable of managing additional senses. We may find out within the next few generations if that is the case, as we try to extend human senses by means of technology from early ages.

Ironwolf

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2013, 03:00:33 AM »
I look at things from an entirely different perspective. I am a cherokee, I do follow totems and practice shamanism.

You may think me primative and that is fine but I have seen and done things that would leave you speechless or as what usually happens people later say to save their world view - I was fooled - the person must have tricked me somehow. It is very easy to try and spin back to the modern world ignoring the primative because it frightens you.

What I believe is that totems - animal spirits for the easiest explaination - guide you. How? You keep seeing and noticing a particular animal - such as a horse as you drive, walk or watch TV. Maybe you are really busy and the horses keep drawing your eye. The spirit is telling you to step back, relax and be free to roam and kick your heels up a bit.

What is your favorite animal? What does it say of you? Totems are not what many believe or not merely as they believe. I obviously am wolf but also bear. By observing your reaction to the animals around you - you can often see where your spirit needs to go.

Here is a very simple totem explaination site:
http://alltotems.com/wolf-totem-symbolism-and-meaning/

http://alltotems.com/bear-spirit-meaning-symbols-and-totem/

It helps you understand the totems aren't necessarily speaking to you - it is something they are doing or how they are that draws you.

Nightwatch

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2013, 10:14:38 AM »
I look at things from an entirely different perspective. I am a cherokee, I do follow totems and practice shamanism.

You may think me primative and that is fine but I have seen and done things that would leave you speechless or as what usually happens people later say to save their world view - I was fooled - the person must have tricked me somehow. It is very easy to try and spin back to the modern world ignoring the primative because it frightens you.

What I believe is that totems - animal spirits for the easiest explaination - guide you. How? You keep seeing and noticing a particular animal - such as a horse as you drive, walk or watch TV. Maybe you are really busy and the horses keep drawing your eye. The spirit is telling you to step back, relax and be free to roam and kick your heels up a bit.

What is your favorite animal? What does it say of you? Totems are not what many believe or not merely as they believe. I obviously am wolf but also bear. By observing your reaction to the animals around you - you can often see where your spirit needs to go.

Here is a very simple totem explaination site:
http://alltotems.com/wolf-totem-symbolism-and-meaning/

http://alltotems.com/bear-spirit-meaning-symbols-and-totem/

It helps you understand the totems aren't necessarily speaking to you - it is something they are doing or how they are that draws you.

You are primitive.

Mantic

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2013, 10:40:48 AM »
I'm Peigan Blackfoot/Tsalagi too, (don't say Cherokee if you're pushing totemism and calling yourself a shaman...) but I'm at least third generation pragmatic.

My grandfather (born a century ago, son of survivors from the march to Oklahoma) always told me to be leery of what people try to pass off as cultural history, because he'd seen a whole new generation come up in the forties and fifties, pulling popular wisdom out of thin air to impress the tourists, and then buying into it themselves.


« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 11:18:55 AM by Mantic »

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2013, 03:23:26 PM »
The wind, the sun, mountains, trees, everything was once imbued with its own spirit according to the reasoning of the time, because that was the best explanation we could come up with for how these things rose, swayed, and moved as if by some inner will. In 200,000 or 100,000 or 10,000 B.C., nobody was thinking about gravity.

I respect peoples diverse spiritual beliefs, I think they are natural and part of being human, and have become part of the glue that holds civilizations together. I don't think spirituality or religion is going away. I suspect that even when humans evolve further and become vastly more intelligent (if that is where evolution takes us), we will still have supernatural beliefs in some form. You can quote me in case I'm wrong about that later, although you'll have a long wait.

It is often hard for people with religious or spiritual beliefs not to insert their ideas into conversations about science. I can completely understand why. Spiritualism was the first science. Our first attempt to make sense of the world, not just of our immediate environment but of the unseen processes that make the world behave the way it does. What is wind? What are trees? How do mountains rise? What makes the sky grow dark? Modern science gives Humanity a well-lit room full of explanations for things and safe from monsters. By comparison, the early world must have been a terrifying place, and I can see why people might have sought to identify the spirits running the place, most likely wanting to figure out how to keep them appeased. We now know about geothermal processes, plate tectonics and the laws of physics. Few people are left who worship the wind or the Sun, but there are hangars-on.

It's become popular to say that "God is in the details", which is itself an evolution from the older belief that "gods were in the details". Neither of these phrases were usually necessary before we discovered those details, however. Science is usually the reason religious or spiritual people feel the need to say these things, which is an evolution from religious or spiritual people a mere 200 or so years ago, at least for those who made no excuses for scientific evidence but simply handled the culprits with a good lynching. This does not mean I disbelieve entirely the possibility of higher powers, but that I think humankind's limited sphere of awareness has made its assumptions suspect, pretty much since the dawn of human history.

When I'm not arguing, I enjoy hearing about different peoples beliefs. This often misleads people when they talk to me, because I listen and ask a lot of questions (instead of interjecting and arguing my own ideas), and I might give the mistaken impression that I'm easily convinced. It does make conversations more enjoyable though. Generally speaking, I don't like having faith and science come up in the same conversation, if the conversation is more of a debate. It makes me uncomfortable because these conversations lose merit as soon as they become clashes of beliefs or personalities, which is often the case. And what do our personalities have to do with the facts? People who can lighten up or at least wear a thick skin are better off, probably because a resolution to the argument is rarely possible.

I respect religious and spiritual beliefs, but this doesn't mean I throw a blanket over historical or scientific knowledge whenever there's a mixed room. We can all respect each other and be diplomatic with one another, but this doesn't have to mean lying to each other about our positions or about facts. I would never walk into a church or similar setting in order to argue evolution or cosmology, but when you bring your faith to a scientific discussion, you ought to be prepared to be reasoned with. If you won't listen to reason on account of your faith, or if "reason" seems like an awful subjective thing, that's fine. I don't think it's any better when a "scientifically minded" person gets bent out of shape, who angrily "defends" physics or gravity with the strength of their ego or way with words. If the facts aren't enough to sway someone, or if the spiritual convictions aren't enough to sway someone, then the size of the impasse ought to be respected, the same way you must respect some other impassable boundary.

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2013, 05:48:09 PM »
I love your attitude on the subject, Captain. Love it.

The thing that gets my hackles up more is the whole cigar store Indian schtick, where people put on like you're only a real native if you stay on the rez and express this deep spiritualism, even though so much of what goes around in that today is just re-packaging popular sentiment of the moment as if it were ancient wisdom. Truth is we lost a lot of our heritage and there's no legitimate way of getting it back, especially when many of our parents and grandparents muddied the waters by making things up and not really following the guidance of their elders.

The Tsalagi tribe has been mostly modernized for over two centuries, so it's particularly disingenuous for us to behave like our ancestors never assimilated.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 05:56:48 PM by Mantic »

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2013, 07:57:50 PM »
I'm Peigan Blackfoot/Tsalagi too, (don't say Cherokee if you're pushing totemism and calling yourself a shaman...) but I'm at least third generation pragmatic.

My grandfather (born a century ago, son of survivors from the march to Oklahoma) always told me to be leery of what people try to pass off as cultural history, because he'd seen a whole new generation come up in the forties and fifties, pulling popular wisdom out of thin air to impress the tourists, and then buying into it themselves.

Just trying to make the subject as novice friendly as possible :) - I know it is a very barebones explaination but if people are interested they can research it very easily.

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2013, 10:53:32 PM »
when it comes to such psychic powers, I can't do it on "call" you wont find me putting up signs for clerical readings or anything like that. it's not reliable. but when I do have them it's spot on.

my belief is that there are many different types of paralell realities, some where superpowers are more than normal (see the bicycle repairman skit on monty python) some where superpowers are at a somewhat average rate some have it some don't, then some where only a select few have powers, then even still there are some realities where superpowers are rare and hard to obtain and not at all reliable (our world), then there are other realities where superpowers cannot exist.

I attribute this to a hypothesis of mine that superpowers are based on the presence of a type of energy that scientific equipment is currently incapable of recording. some realities have alot of it, and others have different levels. further more based on the quantity in any given reality and the rate of use the equilibrium between Production of energy and use may be broken, at which point everything normalises, superpowers becoem scarce and possibly non existentuntil people stop using the energy and let the reality recharge. (that is the state we are in based on my observations in history.)

throughout history there have been many records of people with special magical powers both power from god and power through sorcery and even people who had powers and thought they were gods.

where is that power now? it's used up, we've hit normality.

Edit: however there may still be trace amounts of this power left in various places.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 11:20:21 PM by Joshex »
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2013, 12:57:03 AM »
I love your attitude on the subject, Captain. Love it.

The thing that gets my hackles up more is the whole cigar store Indian schtick, where people put on like you're only a real native if you stay on the rez and express this deep spiritualism, even though so much of what goes around in that today is just re-packaging popular sentiment of the moment as if it were ancient wisdom. Truth is we lost a lot of our heritage and there's no legitimate way of getting it back, especially when many of our parents and grandparents muddied the waters by making things up and not really following the guidance of their elders.

The Tsalagi tribe has been mostly modernized for over two centuries, so it's particularly disingenuous for us to behave like our ancestors never assimilated.

I was somewhat lucky, my great grandmother lived to be 106. She was an amazing woman and she smoked 2 packs of cigarettes and drank a shot of whiskey a day. I know this sounds odd and I have nothing to back it up except my own two eyes. I used to watch her talk to bees! It was the damnest thing - she would hold out her finger and they would line up on it. Then she would whisper to them and say you first bee go to this flower or that flower first - and they would do it. I have never seen anything like it in my life and I am 54.

I agree much was lost over time and some of the skills and talents are gone - likely forever. I watched her take my mother who had a very painful wart on her finger and have my mother give her a penny. She rubbed the penny on the wart and then told my mother at dusk to walk to the woods and throw the penny over her shoulder. My mother did it and in the morning the wart was completely gone.

She is also the one who stopped 2 federal revenue agents from breaking a big barrel of moonshine whiskey in her house at gun point. They searched for the whiskey and once they found it they were going to take an ax to it. She pulled a pistol and told them to throw the whiskey out the window if they had to get rid of it. The 2 agents said we don't have a bucket can we borrow one? She whispered to my grandfather and he went down and got a teacup - she watched them with her pistol until they emptied it one cup at a time.

The people are assimulated that is true - but some of the old chiefs agreed that the stronger wins just like in nature. It doesn't mean turn your back on the past, but also don't live in the past look to the future and stay in the now. My grandfather would take not one dime from the government and neither would my dad. I also don't want any money, house or land from them and do for myself.

thunderforce

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2013, 03:03:00 PM »
If people had demonstrable and reliable psychic powers, we would be living in a much different world.

Well, quite. In particular if precognition existed in a way that was at all inheritable - and once you dress it up in science's clothes, it's hard to argue that it would not be - every animal on Earth would have it just as essentially every animal has vision, for the same reason - the evolutionary advantage would be overwhelming.

More bluntly, it's telling how every other person knows someone who can cure warts or predict railway disasters, but that not one of these people has ever felt the need for James Randi's million dollars.

Mantic

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2013, 07:32:11 PM »
...the evolutionary advantage would be overwhelming.

That may not be true. Especially if there is not one true course for events (which there could not be if animals could act on such a sense in any meaningful way). What good would it do to be bombarded by an awareness of potentials if you aren't capable of sorting them meaningfully?

So early evolution may have stumbled upon such senses at some point, found them ultimately more deleterious to survival, and so it withered away. But because it is there in our genetic history it might occasionally still flare up, inducing the kind of experience Joshex is convinced of.

I am not convinced, but then, I'm in the camp that still believes time is an abstract concept (not a physical thing). I do not believe my various precognitive insights have ever come from anything but subconscious deduction, either. I still trust that ability enough to pay attention, just as I have clocks and trust them to help keep my appointments.

Taceus Jiwede

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2013, 06:30:34 AM »
Quote
the evolutionary advantage would be overwhelming.

This made me laugh.  And for the most part I would agree that being able to see the future would give you an immense advantage. 

Unless of course, seeing the future would mean that time is linear and that it was going to happen that way no matter what.  If you could see the future it means you could change your actions to bring about a different future.

UNLESS of course that is also predicted in your vision so what ever you change is actually what you were gonna do anyway to get to the point of this prediction in which the best case would of been to do nothing.

UNLESS of course that was also in the prediction that you would figure it out, and do nothing which would lead your prediction to happen exactly as planned.  And then somewhere in the middle of this paradox of trying to figure out if you should or shouldn't do something because of what you did or didn't do in the future that hasn't happened yet leading up to the actual time and event of your prediction, you get killed by a lion!

Then all the other animals and/or humans would yell out "Bet you didn't see that coming!."  And that is why you can't trust lions.  Wait, what were talking about?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 06:36:26 AM by Taceus Jiwede »

JaguarX

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2013, 06:39:39 AM »
This made me laugh.  And for the most part I would agree that being able to see the future would give you an immense advantage. 

Unless of course, seeing the future would mean that time is linear and that it was going to happen that way no matter what.  If you could see the future it means you could change your actions to bring about a different future.

UNLESS of course that is also predicted in your vision so what ever you change is actually what you were gonna do anyway to get to the point of this prediction in which the best case would of been to do nothing.

UNLESS of course that was also in the prediction that you would figure it out, and do nothing which would lead your prediction to happen exactly as planned.  And then somewhere in the middle of this paradox of trying to figure out if you should or shouldn't do something because of what you did or didn't do in the future that hasn't happened yet leading up to the actual time and event of your prediction, you get killed by a lion!

Then all the other animals and/or humans yell out "Bet you didn't see that coming!"

Thye never see it coming.


Like one named Cleo or something.


Then again, would a person want to see the future clearly? If a person knew how when why they are going to die the exact moment and circumstance, would most people change it welcome it, or do nothing. Would they try to avoid the outcome, which could result in an even earlier or worse way to go? Or would they just accept their fate. Would a person be the same, or would they take for granted each day until the last few predestined days?  Or better yet if someone said right now they can tell you the exact time and date how you are going to die, I wonder how many people would want to know or are indifferent or will do everything in their power to live forever as long as they can?

Captain Electric

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2013, 09:37:59 AM »
And then somewhere in the middle of this paradox of trying to figure out if you should or shouldn't do something because of what you did or didn't do in the future that hasn't happened yet leading up to the actual time and event of your prediction, you get killed by a lion!

Okay I lol'd. ;D

However, I don't think it would work like that. Who knows how clairvoyance would pan out. In the way you describe it, as an "always on" ability, it mostly likely wouldn't be terrible to an animal that had been born with it and lived with it every day. It would be an extremely weird way to "see" the world, but I'm sure bats would feel the same way if you gave them full-color human vision. Bear in mind, this kind of clairvoyant vision would not simply tell you about specific "events which were coming". It would be a never-ending sensory feed, a constant awareness of everything that was about to happen or happen after that. Changing your future would not be phenomenal, it would be as natural and constant as breathing air. It would be no different than me turning my steering wheel slightly when I see a big piece of litter in the road up ahead. You would constantly be witnessing the consequences of your actions at the moment you began to take those actions. And you would constantly be re-tuning those decisions and actions every moment of your life to align yourself with the best possible consequences, but by the time you were a young adult, most of this behavior would be natural and involuntary I'd imagine!

Captain Electric

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2013, 09:54:24 AM »
Wow, you know, it's actually kind of scary-freaky-brain-bendy to try to imagine what that kind of "sight" would feel like. :o

If all the sudden I started seeing the world like that, and couldn't turn it off, I think the first thing I'd notice is that it would probably always feel like I was rushing ahead of myself. When walking around a corner, I'd already seem to be around the corner. I'd have to find some method to keep myself oriented in the present so my temporal vision wouldn't deceive me into thinking I was other places already.

Would you rather be far-sighted or near-sighted? An easy question for Chess players, but would it always be a plus to be far-sighted?

And what would the possibility of a car accident feel like? Would traumatic events be all that traumatic if you were always steering clear of them (due to witnessing yourself amid them, of course)? What would death look or feel like? Spots in your vision ahead that you just couldn't see into? Or billowing clouds filled with angels around every trouble spot? ;D
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 10:04:00 AM by Captain Electric »

Mantic

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2013, 10:26:23 AM »
Bear in mind, this kind of clairvoyant vision would not simply tell you about specific "events which were coming". It would be a never-ending sensory feed, a constant awareness of everything that was about to happen or happen after that. Changing your future would not be phenomenal, it would be as natural and constant as breathing air. It would be no different than me turning my steering wheel slightly when I see a big piece of litter in the road up ahead. You would constantly be witnessing the consequences of your actions at the moment you began to take those actions. And you would constantly be re-tuning those decisions and actions every moment of your life to align yourself with the best possible consequences, but by the time you were a young adult, most of this behavior would be natural and involuntary I'd imagine!

To me, that sounds like just how we do operate. Of course we do our moment-to-moment predictions based on a different sort of temporal awareness, and a compound system of instinct, memory, and training. But when you see that piece of litter in the road you are aware that you will be passing there in a matter of moments and adjust your course accordingly. You also know that, for example, weeks from now you will be traveling to a significant appointment, so you plan for that by taking your good suit to the dry cleaners, double-checking your restaurant reservations, and also planning a visit to the barber the day before. Further, because it is a very important appointment with potential to drastically change the course of your future for years to come, you've been running simulations while both waking and asleep, constantly re-tuning the decisions and actions you will perform at this important moment weeks in the future.

Of course, you do all this based not on a sense of physical time but on an extrapolation of past experience and available information about these future events, so when you get eaten by a lion while taking out the garbage tonight, it is only because there was no reasonable way for you to predict that.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 10:36:05 AM by Mantic »

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2013, 11:07:36 AM »
Unless of course, seeing the future would mean that time is linear and that it was going to happen that way no matter what.  If you could see the future it means you could change your actions to bring about a different future.

That seems to be a similar objection to the previous poster, but not so. The precognition only has to be of a potential threat, not the consequences to you; the poster upthread who mistakenly supposed they were warned of a railway accident is a perfect example. The accident still happened, but the would-be victim was standing somewhere else.

Of course the world would be very different if these sorts of powers actually existed. For example (I'm not advancing this as any kind of ironbound proof that they don't, not least because the onus is obviously on people to show that there _are_ fairies at the bottom of the garden, not on me to show there aren't, merely a random example out of many) poker would be dominated by clairvoyant or precognitive players, and in a world where enormous numbers of online poker players collect and analyse countless hand histories, we can be quite confident that isn't happening. (Why? Because one of the things looked for in hand histories is evidence of cheating by collusion between poker services and players - a player whose play only makes sense if they had information they shouldn't). In fact, if precognitives exist they can't win consistently at any kind of gambling on future events. Isn't that odd?

Mantic

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2013, 12:16:55 PM »
That's just game design being refined to eliminate prediction by hiding information and increasing the number of variables.

Blackjack is a card game that is much more susceptible to prediction by logical means, and so a lot of people with good minds for probabilistic math have been banned from many casinos. If someone who is not a conscious card-counter had a great deal of experience at playing a game like Blackjack, such a predictive ability could reasonably be developed as a natural skill. Said individual might even attribute resulting success to luck or some other mystical connection, because the underlying skill is not being accessed or understood on a conscious level.

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2013, 02:12:21 PM »
Like one named Cleo or something.

No, that's called 'cold reading'.  :P
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thunderforce

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2013, 02:18:58 PM »
No, that's called 'cold reading'.  :P

Good cold reading is magic - er, bad choice of word - truly astonishingly effective.

Taceus Jiwede

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2013, 09:23:16 PM »
If this was a ability some people had I would be curious if they saw their own future, or just the future in general.  Still, I feel in order to see the "future' it means their has to be a definite future.  Although of course maybe Clairvoyance would just be a form of prediction using given information to assume the most likely scenario using visual imagery.  People kind of can do that already if they have enough information but perhaps one day it will be effortless, even the absorbing of the inputted information may become effortless.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 06:11:13 AM by Taceus Jiwede »

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Re: Clairvoyance
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2013, 03:05:12 AM »
I'm not much for clairvoyance, but due to the wholly ridiculous amount of time I spent playing the game (often near-totally immersed in terms of emotion and concentration, plus on occasion also sleep-deprived or semi-conscious due to exhaustion), as time passes my memories of playing become progressively less "virtual" and blend with recollections of real life.

I have a very good and vivid memory and when I think back to certain specific examples of playing the game my imagination tends to fill in the sensory gaps (touch, smell, heat, wind speed/direction, etc) and the results are memories more like half-recalled dreams of me actually doing the things my character did, rather than memories of sitting at a computer staring at a pixellated screen.

I'm confident that by the time I'm sixty I'll swear blind that I really did once jump down an ancient stone abyss into a vast, breathtaking cavern of pink crystals to fight an immortal wizard surrounded by demons.

For our generation, dementia is going to be absolutely mind-blowing for the poor young nurses charged with keeping us entertained. "Yes dear. Yes. You collected all the exploration badges in the hospital and got the accolade. Now let me take you back to bed or you'll miss Sally spawning in the morning..."