Where do we stand now?

[Thunder Glove]

I don't want to speak for any of the Plan Z projects, but I'm pretty sure that's the idea behind TPP and H&V, at least: to have a game by the players, for the players, which will continue to be supported by the players even if the dev team can't anymore (for whatever reason).

(That said, it'd be interesting to see how much development would slow down just because the people developing it would want to play CoH)

[The White Rager]

TPP seems to enjoy being a game studio for its own sake, many of their members are people with the skill sets to have tried, and did try, and failed because of how hard it is to break in. I doubt CoH's recovery would stop them. They'd probably go right on making their game because it's already got lots of innovation built in, enough to justify its existence alongside. There's room in the market for CoH plus one more. Don't many of us play more than one game? If there had been two games out there with the kinds of virtues of CoH, wouldn't we all  have been playing both?

Except it wouldn't even be that, most likely. I'm guessing if Google acquired the IP now, they wouldn't try to restart the game: they'd use the IP to develop CoH 2 rather than deal with that while missing the original team and who knows what else. And there's no telling what that would come out like.

And there would still be room for both either way. The superhero MMO market is a lot bigger than just our community, and there's no reason that the fact that a game is inspired by CoH means it's only for us. Ideally, many new people would join in and learn to love the same things we did about it.

[Golden Girl]

CoH without Paragon Studios would be an unknown quantity, so "Heroes and Villains" would continue.

[Zombie Man]

Paragon Studios was working on a "CoH2" when it got closed. As good as the PS engineers were at hacking the engine to make it do things it was never intended to do... at some point, that whole deck of cards will collapse. That's why CoH2 was in the works.

If the original CoH is restarted, that doesn't obviate plans for a type of "CoH2" from any other studio. Don't count on a restarted CoH1 to be developed like PS was developing it unless they were able to hire those specific engineers back who knew the code. New engineers will take years to catch up on how to further hack the engine.

I wonder what gaming engine PS's CoH2 was being built upon?

[Cobra Man]

CoH without Paragon Studios would be an unknown quantity, so "Heroes and Villains" would continue.

Wishful thinking that.

A resurrected CoH would make the success of any of the 3 new projects highly unlikely.

[Nightwatch]

Wishful thinking that.

A resurrected CoH would make the success of any of the 3 new projects highly unlikely.

Just don't agree.  In the highly unlikely circumstance that NCsoft resurrected CoH, many of us would simply not believe they would keep it going.  Burnt once; and have defintely not enjoyed the experience!.  If they or anyone else resurrected CoH, I would still be interested in the other legacy projects simply because they have the potential to produce an even better game OWNED AND MANAGED BY PLAYERS THEMSELVES.

[grouchybeast]

A resurrected CoH would make the success of any of the 3 new projects highly unlikely.

Personally, I'd still support the new projects even if CoX came back.  The reason I've been stuck with no MMO to play since CoX folded is because I haven't been able to find another game with the kind of alt-friendly, casual, easy-teaming, non-grindy play style I loved there.  Having more options for games like that in the future would be something I'd definitely be happy to put money into.

[Kyriani]

Wishful thinking that.

A resurrected CoH would make the success of any of the 3 new projects highly unlikely.

I dont think that's a very fair or even logical assumption to make.

While the people here might be content with going back to COH and not pay as much attention to the new projects, that hardly means those new games wouldnt appeal to entirely new blocks of people. There's room for more than one game after all.

Myself, I'd go back to COH if it returned, but I would also check out the new games too just to see if there's something else to appeal to me there.

[Cobra Man]

I didn't say that the statement was fair or logical 

I can't see CoH ever being brought back - by anyone ... and that makes me very sad indeed.

[JaguarX]

Wishful thinking that.

A resurrected CoH would make the success of any of the 3 new projects highly unlikely.

I think there is room for many super hero games in this market.

How many fantasy games are there? some with a million or more players. Many more with 500,000-999,999 players, and even more still with 250,000-499,999. All existing just fine at the same time.

[Joshex]

If someone did buy the IP, what becomes of the various Plan-Z projects? I imagine that it'd be up to them, but I'm wondering what their decisions would be if it happened now. (I'm hoping to get responses from folks involved in the projects.) I think I'd feel a little more secure if at least one kept going, in case the buyer also shuttered CoX (having had the rug pulled out from under me once already).

if CoH comes back the plan Z projects can all be worked into thier own entities that merely clone the CoH style interface. they wouldn't even need to necessarily be about super heroes, as mentioned in another thread I hold high hopes some day the Plan Z teams will release thier engines so I can make a 3D one piece MMO with city of heroes style interactions, and a bleach MMO with the same.

[Cobra Man]

I think there is room for many super hero games in this market.

How many fantasy games are there? some with a million or more players. Many more with 500,000-999,999 players, and even more still with 250,000-499,999. All existing just fine at the same time.

You would think that there should be room for multiple super hero MMO's to easily co-exist.

The problem is that this doesn't appear to the case, looking at the way things have gone for them over the years.

Fantasy MMO's thrive, wallowing in ridiculously high numbers.

Meanwhile, super hero MMO's struggle - and the best of the lot gets shut down.

Given the massive popularity of the super hero genre right now you would think that it would be the other way around and fantasy MMO's should be the one's struggling .... but it's not.

[JaguarX]

You would think that there should be room for multiple super hero MMO's to easily co-exist.

The problem is that this doesn't appear to the case, looking at the way things have gone for them over the years.

Fantasy MMO's thrive, wallowing in ridiculously high numbers.

Meanwhile, super hero MMO's struggle - and the best of the lot gets shut down.

Given the massive popularity of the super hero genre right now you would think that it would be the other way around and fantasy MMO's should be the one's struggling .... but it's not.

Well the reason for that is that early fantasy games took risks. They invested, marketed it as the gresteast thing since sliced bread, before  they became huge.

Super hero makers, many times I hear "oh well we are not going to do that because it's not making enough money." Many try to make money first while unknown relatively and not take risks. WoW didn't get multiple millions over night. Even when it was low income, way lower than COH at the time, they invested millions of dollars to change their marketing schematics even though the game at the time wasn't bringing in much. They could have lost a bunch of money on it, yes. But it worked and it paid off in dividends. Which asa side effect put fantasy games even more on the map.

Now hero games, a lot of gamers don't even realize there are super hero mmos out there. The best one that got recently shut down most gamers never even heard of it and more people heard about it after it got shut down than prior. The greatest super hero mmo that no one ever heard. The one looks likes it's half baked. Marvel, already being compared to reskinned Diablo (fantasy game), and then DCUO ok, and maybe the most populated one. 

The reason that super hero mmos are struggling because they are not made nor given the same marketing respect try as fantasy games. They are treated more as side projects. The fantasy game genre went through their fire trial a long time ago, it's super hero genre turn but they hesitate worrying about lost money instead of investing.

Not to mention many still follow the rules of fantasy games questing, guild, dungeons etc. and just change the names to mission, super groups, task force. They wont get out of the shadow of fantasy game ever if they are afraid to go off the path that fantasy games created.

[Nightmarer]

I'm probably wrong but I think it's simpler than all that, Fantasy MMO games thrive because the biggest MMO game ever is a fantasy one and the industry are too lazy / short sighted to do anything else plus us, the players, tend to go mainstream so if the biggest MMO is a fantasy one, fantasy MMOs must be the way to go.

A mate of mine used to say that if CoH had received proper marketing at launch, WoW would be nowadays a mere anecdote, who knows, if NCSoft had done the job they were supposed to do, publishing the game (by publishing I mean doing it properly, with everything needed to make it successful, you know, marketing and all that) then maybe there would be another forum wondering why Super Hero MMOs thrive and wondering why there's no room for more than one or two fantasy games.

Again, I'm probably wrong but it's what I like to think.-

[JaguarX]

I'm probably wrong but I think it's simpler than all that, Fantasy MMO games thrive because the biggest MMO game ever is a fantasy one and the industry are too lazy / short sighted to do anything else plus us, the players, tend to go mainstream so if the biggest MMO is a fantasy one, fantasy MMOs must be the way to go.

A mate of mine used to say that if CoH had received proper marketing at launch, WoW would be nowadays a mere anecdote, who knows, if NCSoft had done the job they were supposed to do, publishing the game (by publishing I mean doing it properly, with everything needed to make it successful, you know, marketing and all that) then maybe there would be another forum wondering why Super Hero MMOs thrive and wondering why there's no room for more than one or two fantasy games.

Again, I'm probably wrong but it's what I like to think.-

Actually I think you are very accurate. While many people play WoW because they thoroughly enjoy it, I wouldn't be surprised if a good number play WoW merely because it's the biggest and most mainstream.

I think if COX got it's proper push, WoW probably would have been big but super hero genre would have been right beside if not exceeded it especially now.

Yeah, it's like that self fulfilling circle. Fantasy games are mainstream because they aimed to be but now that they are people will go there and since people tend to go to mainstream game companies build more, because they are mainstream and so on. Easy money. Doing something mainstream now seems to be a risk, which is the type of risk someone took back in the day to get fantasy games mainstream. Just need some company or game maker that is ready to take that risk and I can bet with the right push, good marketing, good PR (remember WoW got it's "troll" stereotype community AFTER the game was big. If they did what they did like that before the game was made, they would have sanked it.), and good work put into the game. AT this point unfortunately super hero mmo missed the boat when there were less MMOs and the gorilla wasn't around. Now, in order to get mainstream someone have to treat it the super hero mmo as if it's the flag ship and put their real talent and work that they seem to reserve only for fantasy games into it. Which is another factor why super hero are nor mainstream in mmo. Lot of the work and the support after it's made marketing and tech. is on the level of a mere side project. Want to be mainstream? They have to act like they want it. This is a second chance that most genres don't get. Hero movies are hot (hmmm how did they become mainstream? Hard work and good visuals and storylines.) but if they wait until that hot market cool off which it will naturally, then they might as well hang it up because the battle will get ten times as hard.

[Captain Electric]

Just don't agree.  In the highly unlikely circumstance that NCsoft resurrected CoH, many of us would simply not believe they would keep it going.  Burnt once; and have defintely not enjoyed the experience!.  If they or anyone else resurrected CoH, I would still be interested in the other legacy projects simply because they have the potential to produce an even better game OWNED AND MANAGED BY PLAYERS THEMSELVES.

Well actually, this is why I'm hoping the reverse engineering effort is more than just myth. I'm sorry but (<-- and not entirely in the sarcastic sense of the phrase either), if I could have City of Heroes back, then all of the successor projects would take a backseat. If I was budgeting hard and had to pick between a successor project Kickstarter or a server donation, I would donate to the City of Heroes server. I don't see why anyone in the successor projects would blame me for that, unless they've truly lost their way.

There is a crap ton of shoddy, bug-ridden player-run servers out there for various MMOs, but there are a handful of player-run MMOs which are maintained professionally and, crazy but true, further developed with new content. I never thought there was a shortage of individuals in the City of Heroes community whose talent would be up to the task. And so you'll never see me say, "Sure, I think it's great that we let the game die, EULAs are scary!" I know it could take years to reverse engineer a game as big and complex as City of Heroes. Well that's how long it will take to create a successor too. Which is why it will burn me up if years go by and nothing ever happens for City of Heroes. You already have the best super hero game staring you in the face, and there you are trying to reinvent the wheel. This doesn't mean I wish ill for other super hero games, or want people to stop working on them. But you know, everyone always said that City of Heroes still had years of life ahead of it when it was shut down. The game needs a big damn wakie, that's all.

[OzonePrime]

I, too, am hoping the reverse engineering is not a myth. I miss City of Heroes so much that I'm spending more time playing with Icon, than playing the games for which I am paying. I would drop all games for this!
I support all of the new projects. Each have sleek intriguing designs, and we need more super hero games. Plus, the success of player controlled games could really change the industry, for the better.

[Ultimate15]

Well actually, this is why I'm hoping the reverse engineering effort is more than just myth. I'm sorry but (<-- and not entirely in the sarcastic sense of the phrase either), if I could have City of Heroes back, then all of the successor projects would take a backseat. If I was budgeting hard and had to pick between a successor project Kickstarter or a server donation, I would donate to the City of Heroes server. I don't see why anyone in the successor projects would blame me for that, unless they've truly lost their way.

There is a crap ton of shoddy, bug-ridden player-run servers out there for various MMOs, but there are a handful of player-run MMOs which are maintained professionally and, crazy but true, further developed with new content. I never thought there was a shortage of individuals in the City of Heroes community whose talent would be up to the task. And so you'll never see me say, "Sure, I think it's great that we let the game die, EULAs are scary!" I know it could take years to reverse engineer a game as big and complex as City of Heroes. Well that's how long it will take to create a successor too. Which is why it will burn me up if years go by and nothing ever happens for City of Heroes. You already have the best super hero game staring you in the face, and there you are trying to reinvent the wheel. This doesn't mean I wish ill for other super hero games, or want people to stop working on them. But you know, everyone always said that City of Heroes still had years of life ahead of it when it was shut down. The game needs a big damn wakie, that's all.

Agreed. 100%.

I think it's fantastic that there have been so many people in the Save COH movement who have gone above and beyond in helping the community to either bring COH back or re-create what we all miss so much. And I hope that Valiance and TPP and Heroes and Villains all see great success. Really, I do.

But getting City of Heroes back - from NCSoft or whomever - is the holy grail for me. If COH were to be resurrected, that's absolutely going to be where I'll be. And while I love that these successor games are all being put together by former COHers, the harsh reality is that there's only SO much a completely volunteer-based gaming project can accomplish in comparison to a game backed by a profit-driven gaming company. It sucks, because some of these companies can often times prove to be untrustworthy and selfish...but it's the fact of the matter. 

[Mistress Urd]

having seen several aborted Champions on the PC go nowhere... Frankly I am glad I got in as much CoH time in as I did and I hope one of the new projects can make a game worthy of the title CoH successor.

[dwturducken]

Paragon Studios was working on a "CoH2" when it got closed.

Sorry,  but I think this was debunked in the AUA ("Ask Us Anything") around the time of the 9th anniversary. May have been in something else since the closure, but They (Paragon, maybe even Matt) have said this never got past the concept art phase.