Where do we stand now?

[unladenswallow]

I just made a quick glance of the recent posts looking for where we are on brainstorming, making pitches to the gaming industry, sacrificing children to dark gods, to get COH going again. I don't post often but I check the forums two or three times a week to keep up with things and see if there is anything I can contribute to.

If I missed some obvious post please forgive me but, outside of the attempts at making a spiritual successor, where do we stand now on trying to revive COH?

[Thunder Glove]

I think we're in "Waiting for Google to do something.  If they do something" mode, while the TF Hail Mary folks are writing up their next pitch.

Actually, now that I think about it, there's a very good chance that even if Google (or any of the TF Hail Mary targets) decides to buy CoH to bring it back and somehow gets NCSoft to cooperate and sell, we won't hear about it until it's all finalized, with the i's dotted and t's crossed, which could take months.

There's also the various emulator projects, but they're being kept on the down-low.  I don't know how or even if they're coming along (particularly the I24 emulator, which is the one I'm more interested in; the I3 emulator doesn't have a Mac-compatible install).

... bear in mind that someone may come along and correct me on anything or everything I just said at any moment.

[unladenswallow]

So the official pitch to Google has been made? Is that the only one that has possibility or are there others?

[goodtime]

So the official pitch to Google has been made? Is that the only one that has possibility or are there others?

Don't forget to help out and send real mail.

[Cinnder]

So the official pitch to Google has been made? Is that the only one that has possibility or are there others?

I believe the team has other possibilities in mind, but they are trying to contact one at a time to give them a chance to take action, if they so choose.  Remember that even if we pique the interest of a buyer, there is still no guarantee that NCSoft will be willing to sell.

TG is right: we probably won't find out of any of our Hail Mary attempts worked until such time as someone concludes a successful deal.  For all we know, Disney could actually have been convinced by our first pitch but could be getting the same cold shoulder that NCSoft gave us.

Oh and I think I missed the thread asking us to sacrifice children to get CoH back.  Does an 18-yr-old still count as a child? 

[HEATSTROKE]

Ill be honest.. I think the one pitch at a time thing might not be the way to go.. Corporations tend to move sooooo slowly I think a better approach might have been to do a few at a time..

[Rae]

Good God, man. We're only four people at the best of times. The last pitch we were down to two :p

[Heroid]

I know that a lot of time and thought and planning has been put in by the TFHM team.  We have to be patient.  There are a lot of people volunteering their time and resources for various efforts to either bring us back CoH or to deliver us a "spiritual successor".  I salute those efforts and the hard-working folk who are doing the hard work.

[TigerKnight]

Just a random thought.

It would be a good thing if another pitch wasn't sent out. Why?

Cause that means another one wasn't needed..... No news is good news and "we're about to send out the next pitch" isn't exactly good news. Think about it lol.

[Ironwolf]

Please do recall - the last pitch was REQUESTED by Google.

All of the other pitches were sent in hopes of a good reception - Google wanted it, vast difference from a cold call to a request for information.

[Sleepy Wonder]

Please do recall - the last pitch was REQUESTED [agreed to be read by someone at] Google.

All of the other pitches were sent in hopes of a good reception - Google  [Someone who works at Google] wanted it, vast difference from a cold call to a request for information.

Fixed. Not trying to be negative, but the wording is a bit misleading. I believe it was taken out of curtsey more than anything due to the relationship someone had with the individual. For all we know, it was simply a gesture of respect, rather than an outright 'no'.

This isn't a case of strangers contacting Google and having them go, "Oh, wow, that looks interesting.. sure, send it to us and we'll have a look."

[JaguarX]

For a pitch that was "requested" it sure is silent about what is up with it.

[Pinnacle Blue]

For a pitch that was "requested" it sure is silent about what is up with it.

Exactly how quickly do you expect them to make this decision?

[JaguarX]

Exactly how quickly do you expect them to make this decision?

Usually "requested" pitches get a little bit more updates within two weeks or so, even if a rock solid decision isnt reached. By a month, usually the sender can call and see what is the status for a "requested" pitch.

Remember this wasnt a cold mailed pitch that usually just go straight to the bottom of the pile and forgotten. If someone requested it, it means usually someone was expecting it and waiting for it to come in.

Remember one of the last steps in a business pitch is the follow up, which is why many actually failt. People forget to check the status on them and it's actually forgotten, or the business think it aint important since no one if checking, or it's defunct.

[Blue Pulsar]

Usually "requested" pitches get a little bit more updates within two weeks or so, even if a rock solid decision isnt reached. By a month, usually the sender can call and see what is the status for a "requested" pitch.

And, for all we know, the core of the TFHM team could be dealing with all that right now. What is it with Americans that they think they need to know the inner workings of everything the second it happens? The pitch could have been ignored, or they could be dealing with the finalization of the purchase.

Fact of the matter is, we don't know. And there is no point in us badgering them and telling them how to do their job.

Remember one of the last steps in a business pitch is the follow up, which is why many actually failt. People forget to check the status on them and it's actually forgotten...

And I am sure that they are doing everything they can to keep up with it. These people aren't idiots, and the pitches they put together are painstakingly thought out and put together.

[JaguarX]

And, for all we know, the core of the TFHM team could be dealing with all that right now. What is it with Americans that they think they need to know the inner workings of everything the second it happens? The pitch could have been ignored, or they could be dealing with the finalization of the purchase.

Fact of the matter is, we don't know. And there is no point in us badgering them and telling them how to do their job.

And I am sure that they are doing everything they can to keep up with it. These people aren't idiots, and the pitches they put together are painstakingly thought out and put together.

I wasnt badgering them. I just said I found it strange of the silence. One day there were nearly ab unch of post every day about it then silence. Someone asked a question and I answered. That is all. Lets not turn a simple statement into something that it is not.

[Thunder Glove]

Again, silence is not surprising.  If I'm understanding what has been said on the matter correctly, the pitch apparently says to contact Brian Clayton or other former Paragon management, not to contact Team Wildcard directly, so we wouldn't be hearing about it.

And if negotiations had started between Google and NCSoft, then we definitely wouldn't be hearing about it.

So in this case, no news is actually good news.  If Google didn't contact Brian, VV (who hasn't been around here in a while because of other more pressing issues, but I think the rest of TFHM is in touch with her) would be able to tell us that (and even that would only mean they hadn't contacted him yet).

[JaguarX]

Again, silence is not surprising.  If I'm understanding what has been said on the matter correctly, the pitch apparently says to contact Brian Clayton or other former Paragon management, not to contact Team Wildcard directly, so we wouldn't be hearing about it.

And if negotiations had started between Google and NCSoft, then we definitely wouldn't be hearing about it.

So in this case, no news is actually good news.  If Google didn't contact Brian, VV (who hasn't been around here in a while because of other more pressing issues, but I think the rest of TFHM is in touch with her) would be able to tell us that (and even that would only mean they hadn't contacted him yet).

ah right that explains it. Forgot about the Brian Clayton part. Yeah, they would contact him as the POC. Makes sense.


Well I guess we wait and see until next year or so before sending out another a pitch to someone else.

[Super Firebug]

What is it with Americans that they think they need to know the inner workings of everything the second it happens?

What do you expect in a world of fast food (take-out and microwaved), instant global communication and the 24-hour news-cycle channel? (I find myself checking in here several times a DAY, hoping that a bit of good cheer has been posted.) Couple that with the average citizen's lack of knowledge regarding corporate deal-making processes, and we end up hoping that this sort of thing can be finalized inside of a week. And that's not including late arrivals, who might have missed any early posts that tell us that it'd likely take weeks or months for us to hear anything about a deal - positive or negative.

Someone at Google asked for the pitch, and the fact that we didn't hear anything, shortly after it was sent out, means that it wasn't met with a firm "Not interested". If NCSoft doesn't plan to hold on to the IP forever, we at least heard something before the Google pitch (if I recall aright) to the effect that they were playing hard-to-get, asking an exorbitant sum for the IP. So it could be that Google is interested in CoH, and is working on getting NCSoft to be more reasonable. And negotiations do take time, regrettably for our nerves and withdrawal symptoms.

[Taceus Jiwede]

What is it with Americans that they think they need to know the inner workings of everything the second it happens?

What is with people that think they can make huge generalizations based on things that people from all over the world do?

The desire to hear a long awaited answer for some hope that can come off as impatience because either a lack of understanding of the business or someone missed a post is not an american trait it's a human trait.  Yes the post does say that they wont contact us, and of course these things take time, longer then most people are even guessing.  It's more likely years before we would hear anything, if we even ever do.  I am happy for TFHM and all the hard work they do and so is almost everyone here, but that doesn't mean some people aren't going to get impatient because that is what happens when people have been waiting to hear about their favorite game.  People from America, Europe and other countries.

You generalize America saying that we want to know everything every second it happens, and then turn around and say that people need to know how these things work and accept that they take time.  I agree that people need to accept that these things take time, but I don't get how you can say that and then speak down about an entire nation for trying to know everything.

[Rae]

I'm always here  (well, not always. I sleep and work and things. But I check in here at least once a day.)

If I have an update, I'll share it.

If I'm not posting except to answer questions, it's probably safe to assume there is no update :-p

Having said that, as someone wrote above, in the pitch I asked them to contact me if they were completely bewildered as to why they'd been sent it, and to the contacts at Paragon if they were interested in pursuing it further. All I can surmise from that is that they weren't completely bewildered by me sending it to them

[Blue Pulsar]

...I don't get how you can say that and then speak down about an entire nation for trying to know everything.

I don't want to get too off subject here, but in response to TJ, I generalize, not a nation, but the loudmouths in it. The people in the nation that are always crying about not knowing the inner workings and decision makings of government and big business. As if the daily decisions and who's talking to who, where did that $50 dollars get spent, how much money did they get last quarter, etc, were their business. The moment you start to make a dollar or get elected, it becomes the job of the media to perform a lifelong body cavity search. BUT, as for people that are demanding to know what goes on behind closed doors, tell them that some organization might have listened to them talk to their girlfriend on the phone last night, and heads will roll.

Frankly, I am just tired of it. The idea that the American people have an automatic "need to know" simply because they think they do. I know this well, because I am American. I have been since the day I was born, and I'm proude to be one. Just not the kind that think they are entitled to every piece of knowledge out there.

And that is what I see here often. There is a reason doctors shut the blinds and doors to a room when a code is called. Knowing that people are watching your every move has it's detriments. Being pestered about every decision is annoying, and it sure as hell doesn't help. Maybe I didn't come off as the nicest guy, but I guess that really isn't my intention. I appreciate TFHM and everything they do. But, badgering them for updates only shows our lack of understanding of how this whole thing works.

I think most posters in this thread get it. Sorry, Jaguar, if I came off as a bit of an ass. I just know how it is when you're trying to do something and it ends up taking longer than expected.

[MakoMako]

As an individual that's had more than my fair share of friends all over the world, I can personally attest that the demand for information is -not- inherently American. And that the loudmouth bullshit of an ignorant population, adamantly demanding explanation, is a thing that happens all over the whole planet.

Furthermore, often people won't even accept the explanation given. Instead opting only to believe the one that works best for them. American media just sensationalizes this aspect with all the bullshit reality shows and news outlets that have greater interest in the personal lives of our world leaders than in the actual issues at hand.

That said; I think people just want, or even -need-, something to continue rallying behind in this initiative. When all this started, we had a lot of presence from higher up folks like Victoria and TonyV. Now there's a lot more silence. And silence is sometimes worse than bad news.

The air is tense. We don't know what's going on. I compare the sensation akin to that of being in the waiting room while someone is being operated on. We don't know how things are coming along, if they're coming along, or if the operation is already a success or failure. We're twiddling our thumbs in the waiting room, and with nothing to show for progress, we're getting anxious about it. Sometimes someone will burst up and scream that the operation is taking too long because the patient died. Or maybe demand that the doctor come out and explain progress right in the middle of operation. (It actually happens). Best we can do is be patient.

[MindBlender]

Let us not forget that we don't OWN CoX.  Google has to figure the logistics on how to approach a company the has shown to be resistant to selling IPs IF and it is a big if they even want to try.  NCSoft from it's track record may be a factor in causing a delay.  My 2 Infl.

[Pinnacle Blue]

And, for all we know, the core of the TFHM team could be dealing with all that right now. What is it with Americans that they think they need to know the inner workings of everything the second it happens?

Hey, that's really friggin' rude.  I'm an American and I asked what I asked because I agree that he has no particular right to know anything about what's going on in this case.

You're better than that.  So do better.

[Phaetan]

Wow, this wasn't the sort of tone I expected without someone using excessive emoticons and an Alpha Complex mentality being involved...

[unladenswallow]

The moment you start to make a dollar or get elected, it becomes the job of the media to perform a lifelong body cavity search. BUT, as for people that are demanding to know what goes on behind closed doors, tell them that some organization might have listened to them talk to their girlfriend on the phone last night, and heads will roll.

Frankly, I am just tired of it. The idea that the American people have an automatic "need to know" simply because they think they do. I know this well, because I am American. I have been since the day I was born, and I'm proude to be one. Just not the kind that think they are entitled to every piece of knowledge out there.

I think you are misrepresenting the passion and longing for COH to exist again as self entitlement. It's not the same thing.

Anytime even a sliver of information on what is going on comes out most of us are just a little giddy and given the passion that COH has generated that's fine. We all want as much info as we can get. It's the reason I started this new topic because I wanted more information.

I understand your concerns about a heavily propagandized citizenry in the United States but that happens all over the world as well. Since this forum isn't political in nature I'm not sure what relevance singling out Americans from the rest of the media manipulated populations of the world is suppose to accomplish here. From what I've seen the majority of posters in this forum are pretty good about keeping such biases out of their posts and staying on the topic of reviving COH. It does creep in from time to time but it usually gets quickly pointed out by others.

The one exception to this is Tim The Enchanter's blatant acceptance of the distortions and outright lies from the Judean People's Front that he constantly posts about in these forums.

Anyone with half a brain can see that the People's Front of Judea is the only honest party who genuinely cares about the rights and welfare of all people. Well,... everyone but the members of the Judean People's Front because they are clearly brainwashed idiots that don't deserve a second thought.

SPLITTERS!!!

[Thunder Glove]

Yeah.  Basically... what he said.

I'm dying for information as much as the rest of you.  (Maybe moreso than some: I still consider CoH the closest thing to a perfect game I've ever played, and I miss it more and more every day)

I just know that these things are conducted in great secrecy.  We won't know anything until all the negotiating is done.  (And possibly not even then, until and unless the game re-opens under the new banner of whichever company takes on the task of re-opening it)

[golemjoe]

I'm really thankful with all the effort that TFHM folks have put in to save the game.  Above and beyond couldn't begin to describe it IMO.

Regarding the whole nosy american thing.. yes there's a need to know the inner workings of government and Big Business.  Why?  Because those positions of power have a huge impact on our rights and daily life.  If business is getting tax breaks, kick backs whatever, that type of thing matters.  If politicians are acting against the best interests of the people that elected them, that matters.  Figuring out how things are going is relevant.  Transparency in government (and it's relationship to business) is not the same thing as invasion of privacy. 

If these things don't matter to you, ignore them.  But bitching about other people actually wanting to be informed about what is being done in their society just makes you look like a jerk. 

I don't want to get too off subject here, but in response to TJ, I generalize, not a nation, but the loudmouths in it. The people in the nation that are always crying about not knowing the inner workings and decision makings of government and big business. As if the daily decisions and who's talking to who, where did that $50 dollars get spent, how much money did they get last quarter, etc, were their business. The moment you start to make a dollar or get elected, it becomes the job of the media to perform a lifelong body cavity search. BUT, as for people that are demanding to know what goes on behind closed doors, tell them that some organization might have listened to them talk to their girlfriend on the phone last night, and heads will roll.

Frankly, I am just tired of it. The idea that the American people have an automatic "need to know" simply because they think they do. I know this well, because I am American. I have been since the day I was born, and I'm proude to be one. Just not the kind that think they are entitled to every piece of knowledge out there.

And that is what I see here often. There is a reason doctors shut the blinds and doors to a room when a code is called. Knowing that people are watching your every move has it's detriments. Being pestered about every decision is annoying, and it sure as hell doesn't help. Maybe I didn't come off as the nicest guy, but I guess that really isn't my intention. I appreciate TFHM and everything they do. But, badgering them for updates only shows our lack of understanding of how this whole thing works.

I think most posters in this thread get it. Sorry, Jaguar, if I came off as a bit of an ass. I just know how it is when you're trying to do something and it ends up taking longer than expected.

[indiramourning]

Emotions run high when dealing with something we love.  I can't state enough how much I appreciate all the efforts of my fellow CoH lovers.  And despite differences of opinion on the nuances of these efforts to recover CoH, I know we all share a passion for the game that makes us all family.   

[OzonePrime]

Emotions run high when dealing with something we love.  I can't state enough how much I appreciate all the efforts of my fellow CoH lovers.  And despite differences of opinion on the nuances of these efforts to recover CoH, I know we all share a passion for the game that makes us all family.   

Very nicely stated.

[Razy]

Emotions run high when dealing with something we love.  I can't state enough how much I appreciate all the efforts of my fellow CoH lovers.  And despite differences of opinion on the nuances of these efforts to recover CoH, I know we all share a passion for the game that makes us all family.   

 Totally agree. 

[Thunder Glove]

Emotions run high when dealing with something we love.  I can't state enough how much I appreciate all the efforts of my fellow CoH lovers.  And despite differences of opinion on the nuances of these efforts to recover CoH, I know we all share a passion for the game that makes us all family.   

Hear, hear.

My emotions have been frazzled since the game went down, and they weren't doing so great from the end of August to the end of November.  It still hurts when people say (true or not) that the game's not coming back.  It feels like they're just dismissing my very real need to have the game back (again, true or not - and probably not, I'm well aware), and I overreact.  I just want our City back so much.

Thanks again to TFHM, and to all the Plan Z projects, and to the Secret Community Server developers.  I'm keeping my fingers, toes, and eyes crossed for all of you.

[Blue Pulsar]

That said; I think people just want, or even -need-, something to continue rallying behind in this initiative. When all this started, we had a lot of presence from higher up folks like Victoria and TonyV. Now there's a lot more silence. And silence is sometimes worse than bad news.

Point taken, but I still find it annoying.

You're better than that.  So do better.

Pestering is rude and your text "tone" is unwarranted. I simply called out my own countrymen. Not to mention, you have no idea how good I am.

I understand your concerns about a heavily propagandized citizenry in the United States but that happens all over the world as well. Since this forum isn't political in nature I'm not sure what relevance singling out Americans from the rest of the media manipulated populations of the world is suppose to accomplish here.

Perhaps, but I don't think I'm the only one with the opinion that Americans are exceptionally good at it. Also, loved the Life of Brian reference. Wish I could have made a witty retort in the form of some other Python mumbo-jumbo, but alas, it's quite late.

Regarding the whole nosy american thing.. yes there's a need to know the inner workings of government and Big Business.  Why?  Because those positions of power have a huge impact on our rights and daily life.

And being up to the minute on trivial minutiae does what for you?

Figuring out how things are going is relevant.  Transparency in government (and it's relationship to business) is not the same thing as invasion of privacy.

There is a difference in trying to understand how things are generally progressing and wanting to be apprised of every detail. Sure, it satisfies our curiousity, but it does little good, and sometimes even harm, to the cause. I think we can well trust the TF:HM team with the reigns of this project. Poking our noses in and demanding constant updates is pointless. When they have something report-worthy, we will hear it.

If these things don't matter to you, ignore them.  But bitching about other people actually wanting to be informed about what is being done in their society just makes you look like a jerk. 

My "bitching" was more wanting to see Team Wildcard let alone. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Oh, and I already look like a jerk. I might as well act like one too.

[Razy]

Yup, that is the way to express where do we stand now. 

[unladenswallow]

Perhaps, but I don't think I'm the only one with the opinion that Americans are exceptionally good at it.

You won't get any argument from me on that point but again that's a topic for a different forum.

However given your enthusiasm on the topic of propaganda and mass media manipulation,...and at the risk of derailing the topic of this thread , you might want to have a look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays

You may already know who this guy is. However if you don't given your interest in propaganda and mass media manipulation you really should know who he is.

[Thunder Glove]

... every time someone bumps this topic, I keep hoping it's for an actual update on CoH.

(Yes, I know that I'm among the people who said that we probably won't hear anything until and unless the game comes back, but ... that doesn't stop me from hoping that we'll hear something anyway)

[Joshex]

... every time someone bumps this topic, I keep hoping it's for an actual update on CoH.

(Yes, I know that I'm among the people who said that we probably won't hear anything until and unless the game comes back, but ... that doesn't stop me from hoping that we'll hear something anyway)

yeah, something like this (Warning the following is currently fictional):

"Rae: Great news! I heard back from the google contact today, they said they negotiated with NCSoft and have obtained the rights to City of heroes and are currently working on getting it running on a test server and reconfiguring the paragon market to pay out to google. No news yet as to when the title will be released on a public server."

[dwturducken]

yeah, something like this (Warning the following is currently fictional):

Tease!

[Super Firebug]

If someone did buy the IP, what becomes of the various Plan-Z projects? I imagine that it'd be up to them, but I'm wondering what their decisions would be if it happened now. (I'm hoping to get responses from folks involved in the projects.) I think I'd feel a little more secure if at least one kept going, in case the buyer also shuttered CoX (having had the rug pulled out from under me once already).

[Thunder Glove]

I don't want to speak for any of the Plan Z projects, but I'm pretty sure that's the idea behind TPP and H&V, at least: to have a game by the players, for the players, which will continue to be supported by the players even if the dev team can't anymore (for whatever reason).

(That said, it'd be interesting to see how much development would slow down just because the people developing it would want to play CoH)

[The White Rager]

TPP seems to enjoy being a game studio for its own sake, many of their members are people with the skill sets to have tried, and did try, and failed because of how hard it is to break in. I doubt CoH's recovery would stop them. They'd probably go right on making their game because it's already got lots of innovation built in, enough to justify its existence alongside. There's room in the market for CoH plus one more. Don't many of us play more than one game? If there had been two games out there with the kinds of virtues of CoH, wouldn't we all  have been playing both?

Except it wouldn't even be that, most likely. I'm guessing if Google acquired the IP now, they wouldn't try to restart the game: they'd use the IP to develop CoH 2 rather than deal with that while missing the original team and who knows what else. And there's no telling what that would come out like.

And there would still be room for both either way. The superhero MMO market is a lot bigger than just our community, and there's no reason that the fact that a game is inspired by CoH means it's only for us. Ideally, many new people would join in and learn to love the same things we did about it.

[Golden Girl]

CoH without Paragon Studios would be an unknown quantity, so "Heroes and Villains" would continue.

[Zombie Man]

Paragon Studios was working on a "CoH2" when it got closed. As good as the PS engineers were at hacking the engine to make it do things it was never intended to do... at some point, that whole deck of cards will collapse. That's why CoH2 was in the works.

If the original CoH is restarted, that doesn't obviate plans for a type of "CoH2" from any other studio. Don't count on a restarted CoH1 to be developed like PS was developing it unless they were able to hire those specific engineers back who knew the code. New engineers will take years to catch up on how to further hack the engine.

I wonder what gaming engine PS's CoH2 was being built upon?

[Cobra Man]

CoH without Paragon Studios would be an unknown quantity, so "Heroes and Villains" would continue.

Wishful thinking that.

A resurrected CoH would make the success of any of the 3 new projects highly unlikely.

[Nightwatch]

Wishful thinking that.

A resurrected CoH would make the success of any of the 3 new projects highly unlikely.

Just don't agree.  In the highly unlikely circumstance that NCsoft resurrected CoH, many of us would simply not believe they would keep it going.  Burnt once; and have defintely not enjoyed the experience!.  If they or anyone else resurrected CoH, I would still be interested in the other legacy projects simply because they have the potential to produce an even better game OWNED AND MANAGED BY PLAYERS THEMSELVES.

[grouchybeast]

A resurrected CoH would make the success of any of the 3 new projects highly unlikely.

Personally, I'd still support the new projects even if CoX came back.  The reason I've been stuck with no MMO to play since CoX folded is because I haven't been able to find another game with the kind of alt-friendly, casual, easy-teaming, non-grindy play style I loved there.  Having more options for games like that in the future would be something I'd definitely be happy to put money into.

[Kyriani]

Wishful thinking that.

A resurrected CoH would make the success of any of the 3 new projects highly unlikely.

I dont think that's a very fair or even logical assumption to make.

While the people here might be content with going back to COH and not pay as much attention to the new projects, that hardly means those new games wouldnt appeal to entirely new blocks of people. There's room for more than one game after all.

Myself, I'd go back to COH if it returned, but I would also check out the new games too just to see if there's something else to appeal to me there.

[Cobra Man]

I didn't say that the statement was fair or logical 

I can't see CoH ever being brought back - by anyone ... and that makes me very sad indeed.

[JaguarX]

Wishful thinking that.

A resurrected CoH would make the success of any of the 3 new projects highly unlikely.

I think there is room for many super hero games in this market.

How many fantasy games are there? some with a million or more players. Many more with 500,000-999,999 players, and even more still with 250,000-499,999. All existing just fine at the same time.

[Joshex]

If someone did buy the IP, what becomes of the various Plan-Z projects? I imagine that it'd be up to them, but I'm wondering what their decisions would be if it happened now. (I'm hoping to get responses from folks involved in the projects.) I think I'd feel a little more secure if at least one kept going, in case the buyer also shuttered CoX (having had the rug pulled out from under me once already).

if CoH comes back the plan Z projects can all be worked into thier own entities that merely clone the CoH style interface. they wouldn't even need to necessarily be about super heroes, as mentioned in another thread I hold high hopes some day the Plan Z teams will release thier engines so I can make a 3D one piece MMO with city of heroes style interactions, and a bleach MMO with the same.

[Cobra Man]

I think there is room for many super hero games in this market.

How many fantasy games are there? some with a million or more players. Many more with 500,000-999,999 players, and even more still with 250,000-499,999. All existing just fine at the same time.

You would think that there should be room for multiple super hero MMO's to easily co-exist.

The problem is that this doesn't appear to the case, looking at the way things have gone for them over the years.

Fantasy MMO's thrive, wallowing in ridiculously high numbers.

Meanwhile, super hero MMO's struggle - and the best of the lot gets shut down.

Given the massive popularity of the super hero genre right now you would think that it would be the other way around and fantasy MMO's should be the one's struggling .... but it's not.

[JaguarX]

You would think that there should be room for multiple super hero MMO's to easily co-exist.

The problem is that this doesn't appear to the case, looking at the way things have gone for them over the years.

Fantasy MMO's thrive, wallowing in ridiculously high numbers.

Meanwhile, super hero MMO's struggle - and the best of the lot gets shut down.

Given the massive popularity of the super hero genre right now you would think that it would be the other way around and fantasy MMO's should be the one's struggling .... but it's not.

Well the reason for that is that early fantasy games took risks. They invested, marketed it as the gresteast thing since sliced bread, before  they became huge.

Super hero makers, many times I hear "oh well we are not going to do that because it's not making enough money." Many try to make money first while unknown relatively and not take risks. WoW didn't get multiple millions over night. Even when it was low income, way lower than COH at the time, they invested millions of dollars to change their marketing schematics even though the game at the time wasn't bringing in much. They could have lost a bunch of money on it, yes. But it worked and it paid off in dividends. Which asa side effect put fantasy games even more on the map.

Now hero games, a lot of gamers don't even realize there are super hero mmos out there. The best one that got recently shut down most gamers never even heard of it and more people heard about it after it got shut down than prior. The greatest super hero mmo that no one ever heard. The one looks likes it's half baked. Marvel, already being compared to reskinned Diablo (fantasy game), and then DCUO ok, and maybe the most populated one. 

The reason that super hero mmos are struggling because they are not made nor given the same marketing respect try as fantasy games. They are treated more as side projects. The fantasy game genre went through their fire trial a long time ago, it's super hero genre turn but they hesitate worrying about lost money instead of investing.

Not to mention many still follow the rules of fantasy games questing, guild, dungeons etc. and just change the names to mission, super groups, task force. They wont get out of the shadow of fantasy game ever if they are afraid to go off the path that fantasy games created.

[Nightmarer]

I'm probably wrong but I think it's simpler than all that, Fantasy MMO games thrive because the biggest MMO game ever is a fantasy one and the industry are too lazy / short sighted to do anything else plus us, the players, tend to go mainstream so if the biggest MMO is a fantasy one, fantasy MMOs must be the way to go.

A mate of mine used to say that if CoH had received proper marketing at launch, WoW would be nowadays a mere anecdote, who knows, if NCSoft had done the job they were supposed to do, publishing the game (by publishing I mean doing it properly, with everything needed to make it successful, you know, marketing and all that) then maybe there would be another forum wondering why Super Hero MMOs thrive and wondering why there's no room for more than one or two fantasy games.

Again, I'm probably wrong but it's what I like to think.-

[JaguarX]

I'm probably wrong but I think it's simpler than all that, Fantasy MMO games thrive because the biggest MMO game ever is a fantasy one and the industry are too lazy / short sighted to do anything else plus us, the players, tend to go mainstream so if the biggest MMO is a fantasy one, fantasy MMOs must be the way to go.

A mate of mine used to say that if CoH had received proper marketing at launch, WoW would be nowadays a mere anecdote, who knows, if NCSoft had done the job they were supposed to do, publishing the game (by publishing I mean doing it properly, with everything needed to make it successful, you know, marketing and all that) then maybe there would be another forum wondering why Super Hero MMOs thrive and wondering why there's no room for more than one or two fantasy games.

Again, I'm probably wrong but it's what I like to think.-

Actually I think you are very accurate. While many people play WoW because they thoroughly enjoy it, I wouldn't be surprised if a good number play WoW merely because it's the biggest and most mainstream.

I think if COX got it's proper push, WoW probably would have been big but super hero genre would have been right beside if not exceeded it especially now.

Yeah, it's like that self fulfilling circle. Fantasy games are mainstream because they aimed to be but now that they are people will go there and since people tend to go to mainstream game companies build more, because they are mainstream and so on. Easy money. Doing something mainstream now seems to be a risk, which is the type of risk someone took back in the day to get fantasy games mainstream. Just need some company or game maker that is ready to take that risk and I can bet with the right push, good marketing, good PR (remember WoW got it's "troll" stereotype community AFTER the game was big. If they did what they did like that before the game was made, they would have sanked it.), and good work put into the game. AT this point unfortunately super hero mmo missed the boat when there were less MMOs and the gorilla wasn't around. Now, in order to get mainstream someone have to treat it the super hero mmo as if it's the flag ship and put their real talent and work that they seem to reserve only for fantasy games into it. Which is another factor why super hero are nor mainstream in mmo. Lot of the work and the support after it's made marketing and tech. is on the level of a mere side project. Want to be mainstream? They have to act like they want it. This is a second chance that most genres don't get. Hero movies are hot (hmmm how did they become mainstream? Hard work and good visuals and storylines.) but if they wait until that hot market cool off which it will naturally, then they might as well hang it up because the battle will get ten times as hard.

[Captain Electric]

Just don't agree.  In the highly unlikely circumstance that NCsoft resurrected CoH, many of us would simply not believe they would keep it going.  Burnt once; and have defintely not enjoyed the experience!.  If they or anyone else resurrected CoH, I would still be interested in the other legacy projects simply because they have the potential to produce an even better game OWNED AND MANAGED BY PLAYERS THEMSELVES.

Well actually, this is why I'm hoping the reverse engineering effort is more than just myth. I'm sorry but (<-- and not entirely in the sarcastic sense of the phrase either), if I could have City of Heroes back, then all of the successor projects would take a backseat. If I was budgeting hard and had to pick between a successor project Kickstarter or a server donation, I would donate to the City of Heroes server. I don't see why anyone in the successor projects would blame me for that, unless they've truly lost their way.

There is a crap ton of shoddy, bug-ridden player-run servers out there for various MMOs, but there are a handful of player-run MMOs which are maintained professionally and, crazy but true, further developed with new content. I never thought there was a shortage of individuals in the City of Heroes community whose talent would be up to the task. And so you'll never see me say, "Sure, I think it's great that we let the game die, EULAs are scary!" I know it could take years to reverse engineer a game as big and complex as City of Heroes. Well that's how long it will take to create a successor too. Which is why it will burn me up if years go by and nothing ever happens for City of Heroes. You already have the best super hero game staring you in the face, and there you are trying to reinvent the wheel. This doesn't mean I wish ill for other super hero games, or want people to stop working on them. But you know, everyone always said that City of Heroes still had years of life ahead of it when it was shut down. The game needs a big damn wakie, that's all.

[OzonePrime]

I, too, am hoping the reverse engineering is not a myth. I miss City of Heroes so much that I'm spending more time playing with Icon, than playing the games for which I am paying. I would drop all games for this!
I support all of the new projects. Each have sleek intriguing designs, and we need more super hero games. Plus, the success of player controlled games could really change the industry, for the better.

[Ultimate15]

Well actually, this is why I'm hoping the reverse engineering effort is more than just myth. I'm sorry but (<-- and not entirely in the sarcastic sense of the phrase either), if I could have City of Heroes back, then all of the successor projects would take a backseat. If I was budgeting hard and had to pick between a successor project Kickstarter or a server donation, I would donate to the City of Heroes server. I don't see why anyone in the successor projects would blame me for that, unless they've truly lost their way.

There is a crap ton of shoddy, bug-ridden player-run servers out there for various MMOs, but there are a handful of player-run MMOs which are maintained professionally and, crazy but true, further developed with new content. I never thought there was a shortage of individuals in the City of Heroes community whose talent would be up to the task. And so you'll never see me say, "Sure, I think it's great that we let the game die, EULAs are scary!" I know it could take years to reverse engineer a game as big and complex as City of Heroes. Well that's how long it will take to create a successor too. Which is why it will burn me up if years go by and nothing ever happens for City of Heroes. You already have the best super hero game staring you in the face, and there you are trying to reinvent the wheel. This doesn't mean I wish ill for other super hero games, or want people to stop working on them. But you know, everyone always said that City of Heroes still had years of life ahead of it when it was shut down. The game needs a big damn wakie, that's all.

Agreed. 100%.

I think it's fantastic that there have been so many people in the Save COH movement who have gone above and beyond in helping the community to either bring COH back or re-create what we all miss so much. And I hope that Valiance and TPP and Heroes and Villains all see great success. Really, I do.

But getting City of Heroes back - from NCSoft or whomever - is the holy grail for me. If COH were to be resurrected, that's absolutely going to be where I'll be. And while I love that these successor games are all being put together by former COHers, the harsh reality is that there's only SO much a completely volunteer-based gaming project can accomplish in comparison to a game backed by a profit-driven gaming company. It sucks, because some of these companies can often times prove to be untrustworthy and selfish...but it's the fact of the matter. 

[Mistress Urd]

having seen several aborted Champions on the PC go nowhere... Frankly I am glad I got in as much CoH time in as I did and I hope one of the new projects can make a game worthy of the title CoH successor.

[dwturducken]

Paragon Studios was working on a "CoH2" when it got closed.

Sorry,  but I think this was debunked in the AUA ("Ask Us Anything") around the time of the 9th anniversary. May have been in something else since the closure, but They (Paragon, maybe even Matt) have said this never got past the concept art phase.

[Eoraptor]

Agreed, City 2 has always been a fan rumor and nothing more. in fact, at the closing, Paragon was in talks to do a buyout, and cited City of Heroes, and two unnamed IP projects which were unrelated, as potential assets.

[unladenswallow]

But getting City of Heroes back - from NCSoft or whomever - is the holy grail for me. If COH were to be resurrected, that's absolutely going to be where I'll be. And while I love that these successor games are all being put together by former COHers, the harsh reality is that there's only SO much a completely volunteer-based gaming project can accomplish in comparison to a game backed by a profit-driven gaming company.

Same for me. I hope that all three of the other projects well and look forward to playing them but if given the choice I'd like my home back. Even if it's reverse engineered.

Ideally for me it would be picked up by a company either run by players or at least as receptive to the player base as Paragon was and not a subsidiary of a larger company who may one day find that it doesn't fit in with their "long term goals".

I would hope that this has already happened and are keeping it quite for legal reasons and marketing purposes to be released with in the next year or so.

Wishful thinking I know but, I would hope that our overwhelming response to the closing of the game did not go unnoticed by the industry and someone would realize the potential market for such a larger devoted player base.

If that were the case they could put a polish on the game that would only be able to be done by a relaunch. Like redoing that clunky redo that had to do of the veteran rewards when it when F2P. I know they really couldn't get around it given what they had to do by going F2P and given the circumstances they did the best they could but it was still a clunky fix.

That and give a lot of the other zones updates like they did Atlas Park. I'm sure there are some other things that could be done as well but that's all I can think of at the moment.

Even if it's reverse engineered some of those things could be done.

Sorry kinda went off on a Marvel What If...? tangent there but that damn comic book ink got in my blood a long time ago.

[Shenku]

Sorry,  but I think this was debunked in the AUA ("Ask Us Anything") around the time of the 9th anniversary. May have been in something else since the closure, but They (Paragon, maybe even Matt) have said this never got past the concept art phase.

Actually, Matt himself did say that they were working on CoH2 during one of his panels at C2E2 in April, though he did not say how far into development they were...

Forgot to bring my video camera that day when I went, and I'm not sure if anyone else recorded it, so I can't really prove it beyond my word, but either way it's kind of moot point now since NCSoft shut them down and have clearly shown they don't care about the franchise or its fans...

[dwturducken]

Forgot to bring my video camera that day when I went...

 

[srmalloy]

Paragon Studios was working on a "CoH2" when it got closed. As good as the PS engineers were at hacking the engine to make it do things it was never intended to do... at some point, that whole deck of cards will collapse. That's why CoH2 was in the works.

If the original CoH is restarted, that doesn't obviate plans for a type of "CoH2" from any other studio. Don't count on a restarted CoH1 to be developed like PS was developing it unless they were able to hire those specific engineers back who knew the code. New engineers will take years to catch up on how to further hack the engine.

I wonder what gaming engine PS's CoH2 was being built upon?

Positron, in describing their buyout attempt, said that the other two in-development IPs that were part of the assets of Paragon Studios were unrelated to CoH; if there had been any serious development on CoH2, it would have had to have been listed as an asset in the buyout negotiations. Paragon Studios may have done some brainstorming and theory about what they would do to move forward with a CoH2, but NCSoft never agreed to fund development, so there wasn't anything tangible regarding it at closure.

If another company were to successfully buy CoH away from NCSoft, it would be almost certain that they'd at least make an attempt to get as many of the original development team as possible, even if only on a consulting basis to bring their own team up to speed on the code. Although, frankly, having CoH bought out and restarted, but with a completely new development team that didn't have any attachment to the game, would be almost as bad as leaving it dead; it was the devs' personal commitments to the game that was one of CoH's strengths. Without that, what you have is a game whose development is driven by its value as a financial engine, not as a community for its players and developers together.

[JaguarX]

Positron, in describing their buyout attempt, said that the other two in-development IPs that were part of the assets of Paragon Studios were unrelated to CoH; if there had been any serious development on CoH2, it would have had to have been listed as an asset in the buyout negotiations. Paragon Studios may have done some brainstorming and theory about what they would do to move forward with a CoH2, but NCSoft never agreed to fund development, so there wasn't anything tangible regarding it at closure.

If another company were to successfully buy CoH away from NCSoft, it would be almost certain that they'd at least make an attempt to get as many of the original development team as possible, even if only on a consulting basis to bring their own team up to speed on the code. Although, frankly, having CoH bought out and restarted, but with a completely new development team that didn't have any attachment to the game, would be almost as bad as leaving it dead; it was the devs' personal commitments to the game that was one of CoH's strengths. Without that, what you have is a game whose development is driven by its value as a financial engine, not as a community for its players and developers together.

Yeah they may attempt but the likely hood of the old team being back whole as it were again is probably low chance. Even if they were willing, then have to think about relocation and leaving a job. Most people dont like bouncing around job to job unless they have to. Not to mention the sctruture of the team had lot to do with it. I'm sure there were many ideas bounced around that didnt sit well with either the rest of the team or the decision maker. Even changing the decision maker can change direction of a game. I.E. when COX got turned over from Jack hands to Positron. The game took a different direction than the path it was heading under Jack term. Some say for the better some say just different and some say other things.
The most likely scenario would be they probably would start from scratch with the original code maybe or maybe not being used. Even the people that worked on it for years had difficulty working with that tangled yarn ball of a code when it came to certain things. I wouldnt be surprised if someone that buy it would start a new code and use the IP trademarks and stuff and maybe the same engine or updated version. Either way, even if bought by another company the game probably would be different as time go on depending on the team that is hired. It wouldnt be the same. A different perspective on direction, how theg ame should be ran, feature updates (they might decide an issue twice a year average is too much and go an issue release every other year or make it must pay updates).

And any company that picks it up will have to be financial driven espeically the first couple of years to recoup the cost and make even a sliver of profit. Then depending on company, might find them even less community driven than NCSOFT. But on the flip side might find one that is community driven and dont mind running in the red for the sake of warm fuzzy feeling inside and figure out how they are going to keep the lights, eat and keep employees paid later.

[CoyoteSeven]

And any company that picks it up will have to be financial driven espeically the first couple of years to recoup the cost and make even a sliver of profit. Then depending on company, might find them even less community driven than NCSOFT. But on the flip side might find one that is community driven and dont mind running in the red for the sake of warm fuzzy feeling inside and figure out how they are going to keep the lights, eat and keep employees paid later.

I think we'd need a new model. One where the players and the programmers are one. Something more community based. Heck, entire operating systems have been and are being developed that way. Why not an MMO? I mean I don't know, maybe you could mix that in with microtransactions? Instead of money, give your time and knowledge to help code this or that, animate this effect, or build that model. In return you get some in-game credit, extra playtime, a spiffy badge, whatever.

[JaguarX]

I think we'd need a new model. One where the players and the programmers are one. Something more community based. Heck, entire operating systems have been and are being developed that way. Why not an MMO? I mean I don't know, maybe you could mix that in with microtransactions? Instead of money, give your time and knowledge to help code this or that, animate this effect, or build that model. In return you get some in-game credit, extra playtime, a spiffy badge, whatever.

Interesting concept there and probably could work and probably will foster a great feeling of players actually building a game that they can actually call theirs because they actually laid some of the brick work.

On the flip side, probably going be a good number of "have nots". People that cant code, draw or program and feel left out and feel that it's creating and catering to the elite status of players with those perks which then can actually create a bigger rift in the community/dev relationship than the current system because since they cant contribute and get those perks, they may feel they are not in fact considered part of the community and just a number to make stats and finance look good for the elite crowd.
Not to mention I can see already two on the forum and someone shooting back "Well I coded part of the game, what have you done besides take up space?" or the likes. 

(speculation as I don't think anyone tried it yet.)

[Kaos Arcanna]

Actually, Matt himself did say that they were working on CoH2 during one of his panels at C2E2 in April, though he did not say how far into development they were...

Forgot to bring my video camera that day when I went, and I'm not sure if anyone else recorded it, so I can't really prove it beyond my word, but either way it's kind of moot point now since NCSoft shut them down and have clearly shown they don't care about the franchise or its fans...

As I recall it, he said they had talked about it and hadn't been able to come up with anything definite.

[Memorandum]

Sorry, to interfere here, but by reading this:

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13249-Letter-From-The-Chairman-18-Million

...I simply cannot tell you how I feel by reading this (well, I'll wish them good luck with their game, nothing against it). I mean, we're trying to build up COH or a clone done by ourself, and others easily get the money for building up a game. 18 millions... Something seriously goes wrong here on our side? It's not ranting; I just don't get it. Maybe there is a wrong way of advertising a superhero game or we're really only a few geek players and nobody cares. Was NCsoft right with their decision? (I know this is an offend question, but just think about where we stand after 1 year and why other games got the money support from the community; be sure  the game from the link above will be published). So regarding this thread: Where do we stand now? And I'll add the question: What is going wrong? 

[healix]

I don't think anything is going wrong. There are several things being worked on by many dedicated people, and some of the progress is being posted here. I am just glad that these people that will someday give us back a game as close to CoH as possible, if not the City itself. Remember, the Microsoft organization started in a garage and we were not privy to every phase of its development.

[JaguarX]

I don't think anything is going wrong. There are several things being worked on by many dedicated people, and some of the progress is being posted here. I am just glad that these people that will someday give us back a game as close to CoH as possible, if not the City itself. Remember, the Microsoft organization started in a garage and we were not privy to every phase of its development.

actually for the people that invested in it originally was actually very privy just about every single detail about what was going on from plan to plan for product to development of the OS and more.

It started to get less privy when they grew way beyond garage and into public traded company, which then still is privy due to required financial sheets and reports on product sales and etc.

I suspect that if Mr. Gates took the money, then just answered "soon" to any of his investor's questions and completely left them out of the loop, they probably would have been highly upset and Miscrosoft would not have went anywhere.

Besides, aint we supposed to be treating the customer and the people better than corporations? If we are going to compare to every coporation with every issue or some other company then what is the point of this project even existing if they are going to do what corporations do anyways just because "that is how corporations do it and no one is privy with them" stuff. Might as well hang it up then because then the communication will be no better than NCSOFT's statement of "we are closing the game due to realignment."

but they are not Amazon, they are not Google, they are not Microsoft, they are not Cryptic, they are not Blizzard. They are Missing Worlds Media. So saying "Amazon do it this way." Mcirosoft was like this" "google only speaks this such and such much" is irrelevant because I'm not looking forward right now to invest or get behind a project of theirs. I'm looking to get behind a MWM project and see what new, keyword NEW they can bring to the way business interact with customers. If they are going to do the same thing as companies already do with communication, then what is the point. I might as well just go invest in Microsoft. No that aint right, I already have on a small scale. Might as well go invest in Google.