Author Topic: Do you think the game got TOO user friendly at the end?  (Read 33000 times)

Codewalker

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Re: Do you think the game got TOO user friendly at the end?
« Reply #60 on: June 28, 2013, 06:55:19 PM »
Yeah, from the start I felt like making the trainers do costumes was just completely redundant.  It made no sense for one (I'm Miss Liberty and I'll train you, or change your clothes for you)  And two, once they put an Icon in AP, it was like, why bother with the trainers? You got a shop right there.

What didn't make any sense to me was that the Icon was added to AP in the same update that made all trainers into tailors.

Though, because of that change we did get some hilarious fan art.

Electric-Knight

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Re: Do you think the game got TOO user friendly at the end?
« Reply #61 on: June 28, 2013, 11:09:31 PM »
While I can understand the confusion some people have with trainers giving access to the costume creator, since there are Icon buildings for that...

This change didn't bother me at all.
Sure, the addition of Icon within Atlas Park coming at the same time was a little weird... but, to be fair, trainers don't work as Super Tailors. So, you'd still need Icon (or Pocket D or Vanguard) to change your height and/or body type.

Here's the thing though... I never once viewed any of this as anything more than Meta-Game, User Interfaces for game mechanics and such.

I never thought of the trainers as characters that actually trained my characters.
So, I never thought of them as being my tailors either.

I'd have been just as happy to use a slash command, or a quickchat click, to access any of that.

Really, what sense did it make to go to Trina in the Tiki Lounge?
Or changing in front of an NPC in the middle of the Vanguard Base?

It was just an additional convenience... but not a break in immersion, at all, for me.


It's not like your character necessarily had to visit a tailor to grow larger horns or wings.
So, I don't entirely understand why people take hard stances on things like this sometimes, hehe.
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Re: Do you think the game got TOO user friendly at the end?
« Reply #62 on: June 28, 2013, 11:21:16 PM »
So, evidently, this is a topic being discussed all over the Internetisphere.

http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/7540/Mark-Kern-Have-MMOs-Become-Too-Easy.html

Not a bad article until the blatant plug for his own MMO at the end.

Much of the reason I left World of WarCraft was the streamlining of content. I think that's the biggest difference between what CoH did and what WoW is doing. Yes, CoH streamlined things as well, but outside Galaxy City, it never removed anything. WoW now has less depth to it in terms of talent trees and gear customization then it did at launch.

It'd be like in CoH decided to "streamline" the archtypes by removing the secondary power sets all together. "Blasters are ranged fighters - they have no need for melee combat skills." Much like how Hunters have been stripped of anything beyond their bow now that there is no longer a ranged weapon "dead zone" in the game.

I also agree that the focus of a MMO shouldn't be solely on End Game. Part of the reasons I really like Star Trek Online and The Secret World is the End Game isn't the sole focus. STO just added a lot of lower to mid-range content, and The Secret World has "Investigation" Missions that invoke strong memories of Myst and involve you actually paying attention to the game world around you.
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JaguarX

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Re: Do you think the game got TOO user friendly at the end?
« Reply #63 on: June 28, 2013, 11:27:54 PM »
Not a bad article until the blatant plug for his own MMO at the end.

Much of the reason I left World of WarCraft was the streamlining of content. I think that's the biggest difference between what CoH did and what WoW is doing. Yes, CoH streamlined things as well, but outside Galaxy City, it never removed anything. WoW now has less depth to it in terms of talent trees and gear customization then it did at launch.

It'd be like in CoH decided to "streamline" the archtypes by removing the secondary power sets all together. "Blasters are ranged fighters - they have no need for melee combat skills." Much like how Hunters have been stripped of anything beyond their bow now that there is no longer a ranged weapon "dead zone" in the game.

I also agree that the focus of a MMO shouldn't be solely on End Game. Part of the reasons I really like Star Trek Online and The Secret World is the End Game isn't the sole focus. STO just added a lot of lower to mid-range content, and The Secret World has "Investigation" Missions that invoke strong memories of Myst and involve you actually paying attention to the game world around you.

Cant blame him for the plug. It's only natural. If one of us did an article there would be COX plug in there somewhere if not the main focus of the article. But that small potatoes.


Yeah, the end game, I think so many games get caught p in end game end game end game and all the great stuff you can do at level cap, they forget the other 39-79 levels you have to do to get there.

Aggelakis

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Re: Do you think the game got TOO user friendly at the end?
« Reply #64 on: June 28, 2013, 11:59:13 PM »
//sidetrack//
Not a bad article until the blatant plug for his own MMO at the end.
He's a game developer talking about user friendliness. He's going to talk about his game. And to be fair, Firefall is pretty "odd-man-out" in the MMO field right now. It's closer to a massive-scale, persistent-world shooter [MMOFPS?] than an RPG, although the base game is certainly built on an RPG model and heavily tweaked from there. And the guys and gals at Red5 really do care about community feedback. The beta process has been amazing. It always kind of felt like what it would be if Paragon had done an FPS.
//sidetrack//
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dwturducken

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Re: Do you think the game got TOO user friendly at the end?
« Reply #65 on: June 29, 2013, 12:21:44 AM »
Yeah. Posi still uses CoH as a frame of reference in his articles.

And, CoH did remove stuff, but only at low levels, and it was replaced with equivalent stuff. I, personally, was pissed about them dropping the origin-based contacts and missions at the low levels. Also, I could have taken or left the "new" super group that they threw in around level 5 or 6. It was kinda creative, but just felt "extra."

But, CoH also didn't make the new material only available at higher levels, which was smarter, because they never had to make it easy-peasy to level to 50. There was the Incarnate stuff, but there was so much stuff just out there in the City and the Isles that I never really felt like I was missing anything by not doing much with the Incarnate stuff. In fact, I still feel like I missed stuff (and likely did) out there in the City and the Isles.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

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Re: Do you think the game got TOO user friendly at the end?
« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2013, 02:41:15 AM »
Although I didnt get the trainer also being used as a tailor thing. It was convient but couldnt make sense of it. "so now, they want me to train up in powers and get dressed in front of the likes of Ms. Liberty?" Although on the other hand I guess that is how it was already done anyways since gear affected looks and thus you visited the trainer/gear shop and appearance changed with how you trained.
This statement confuses me since the only equivalent to the gear of other MMOs in CoH was enhancements or temp powers, and neither one had a direct effect on character appearance.
In any event i thought making trainers also function as tailors was unnecessary and somewhat silly, especially in Atlas Park since there was an Icon a short distance away. (i don't recall a Facemaker in the revamped Mercy Island.)

That said, while there were a number of additions in the last year that increased convenience i found most of them to be either very handy/reasonable or easily ignored. Except the TUNNEL system. For whatever irrational reason i found it to be highly annoying and superfluous.

And now i suddenly miss the game a lot again. Especially since every MMO i've tried since the closing hasn't come close to equaling it for me. At this point i'm mostly pinning my hopes on TPP since i have my doubts about CoH having much more than a largely static revival even if the buyout or server emulation projects come to fruition. The Paragon Studios team has moved on and without seasoned hands on the codebase i suspect it would be a long time before effective development could move forward even if the game was revived.
So far so good. Onward and upward!

JaguarX

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Re: Do you think the game got TOO user friendly at the end?
« Reply #67 on: June 29, 2013, 02:55:53 AM »
This statement confuses me since the only equivalent to the gear of other MMOs in CoH was enhancements or temp powers, and neither one had a direct effect on character appearance.
In any event i thought making trainers also function as tailors was unnecessary and somewhat silly, especially in Atlas Park since there was an Icon a short distance away. (i don't recall a Facemaker in the revamped Mercy Island.)

That said, while there were a number of additions in the last year that increased convenience i found most of them to be either very handy/reasonable or easily ignored. Except the TUNNEL system. For whatever irrational reason i found it to be highly annoying and superfluous.

And now i suddenly miss the game a lot again. Especially since every MMO i've tried since the closing hasn't come close to equaling it for me. At this point i'm mostly pinning my hopes on TPP since i have my doubts about CoH having much more than a largely static revival even if the buyout or server emulation projects come to fruition. The Paragon Studios team has moved on and without seasoned hands on the codebase i suspect it would be a long time before effective development could move forward even if the game was revived.

Talking about I couldnt understand the point of going to a trainer to change appearances aka, why is atrainer doubling asa tailer. Then I realize in many games techincally the trainer also double as "tailor" as in many game you go to the trainer to get gear, and depending on gear chosen your look is tailored at that one contact.

Aggelakis

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Re: Do you think the game got TOO user friendly at the end?
« Reply #68 on: June 29, 2013, 02:58:17 AM »
I can't think of a single game that gives you new gear when you level up. I have no idea what you're talking about.
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thunderforce

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Re: Do you think the game got TOO user friendly at the end?
« Reply #69 on: June 29, 2013, 03:30:19 AM »
Also lets forget there was no debt cap early on.

The debt cap was halved in i6 with in-mission debt halved in i5, but I'm not aware that there was ever no debt cap. Certainly in i3 I remember a disastrous Circle of Thorns mission ("Invincible is just a title, right?" says the leader) in the Hollows which had a "prison room" - because this meant we didn't have to slug back from hosp, I eventually decided I didn't care; respawn, kill one or two enemies, die, rinse and repeat. I must have died two or three dozen times, but that toon was still out of debt in a level's time or so.

FatherXmas

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Re: Do you think the game got TOO user friendly at the end?
« Reply #70 on: June 29, 2013, 04:31:39 AM »
The one big thing in my opinion that hastened the end of the game, not counting corporate in Seoul, was emphasizing instanced missions over zone events and miscellaneous street sweeping.

I understand, seeing the long queues in games like Everquest when a quest is within the world and it ends in a boss fight that spawns 5 minutes after it last got killed, how innovative the notion that everyone gets their own boss fight and don't have to wait for it to return was, combined with large mission bonuses and reduced debt from missions emptied the streets in a very short period of time. 

Now I started playing at the end of August 2004 and the streets and skies were full of heroes, and suddenly, they weren't.  You still saw them going between missions, around the trainers, around the tram stations, in the stores and Icon but it wasn't the same.  Then they started to add QoL features that made it easier to travel to your missions, no longer needing to wait for a tram or transfer in Sky and Steel between the two.  When they added the universities, The Vault and Wentworth's it was three more places you could find gatherings of heroes but eventually they too got QoL rewards and methods to let them do those activities elsewhere.  Icon was the last local until trainers became tailors as well.

Some of this happened after the introduction of AE sort of as a way to provide some of the same convenience but in the normal game but the end result is you didn't have to transverse the city anymore.  Travel powers at a low level makes some sense from a RPing PoV but it primarily meant the the city was fly, jump, port over or speed by country.  At least back when we had to hoof it for 14 levels on the ground we felt like we were in a city full of people wandering the streets.

The end result was what looked to be an abandoned city, empty of heroes, instead of the city I first entered nearly 9 years ago.  If you were a new player you would wonder if anybody else was playing.  With private channels being the normal way to communicate, with hide being the default condition of players who played during the RMT invasion post market and maybe a third of the player population at peak, a new player would wonder how you can play an MMO without other players.

Notice I'm not really talking about difficulty in playing, just environmental changes over the years.

I've been playing GW2 for a while now (letting the boos die down) and one of the aspects I enjoy about it is every zone is full of what's called dynamic events.  Think of the troll rave or apartment fire except multiply that by 20 in every zone.  And with their philosophy that encouraging player cooperation being paramount, players can join in or leave without the need to join teams just so they get better rewards.  There is no tagging of critters so they count toward your total and not someone else.  Everyone gets the same XP and number of drops of loot as long as you do some minimum amount of damage.  But most important is as these events occur, it causes players nearby to rush over and join in which means you see and meet other players all the time in the open world.  And as they join in (well get within an range of the event) the event scales up and as they leave it scales down.  It also helps that they have a daily reward if you do 5 of 9 variable goals for the day and event participation is almost guarantee to be one or more of those goals.

My point is it's not that the game got too easy from making the critters easier to defeat, it got easier for your character to not be a involved with the game world and that leads to a world where to an outsider, a new player, empty of other players and that's death to an MMO, the appearance that it's already dead.
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Taceus Jiwede

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Re: Do you think the game got TOO user friendly at the end?
« Reply #71 on: June 29, 2013, 06:32:01 AM »
This is just my opinion but in terms of actual game play I always found CoH to very very user friendly borderline easy.  The other parts like having to go all the way across Talos for DA or waiting for the tram, no ouro portal.  Those don't really interfere with my concept of the game, short walk or long walk it didn't matter to me because the real challenge was inside the mission or the combat.  I felt at the end the game they actually started making the game play slightly less user friendly at least in some of the newest content.  Fights started requiring more teamwork and new mechanics and people would need to have some experience with the mechanics at hand.  CoH was nice because they added it across several different level ranges.  It wasn't only level 50 content that had mechanics or cool boss fights.  Kind of blapper but for the OP, I think the game was always very user friendly from day one.  The just made travel times shorter as the game went on.  I still think the game was great and loved playing it, but I never really played it because it was challenging.

dwturducken

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Re: Do you think the game got TOO user friendly at the end?
« Reply #72 on: June 29, 2013, 02:04:19 PM »
I can't think of a single game that gives you new gear when you level up. I have no idea what you're talking about.

CO has those little boxes every five levels. You get one or two random green items and the next box. It's silly, but it's a nice little perk, especially on a level where you don't get a new power. I don't know of any others, though.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

JaguarX

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Re: Do you think the game got TOO user friendly at the end?
« Reply #73 on: June 29, 2013, 05:57:17 PM »
(And everything before)

My point is it's not that the game got too easy from making the critters easier to defeat, it got easier for your character to not be a involved with the game world and that leads to a world where to an outsider, a new player, empty of other players and that's death to an MMO, the appearance that it's already dead.

Yeah.

It did start to look like a ghost town. And only time people piped up to let you know they were there is when someone said it looked like a ghost town. Otherwise they were invisible, on prtivate chat channeles, and might get a glimpse of them in passing every now and then. To new players it, looked dead. That what many people I finally got to try the game over the years said. "Dang dude, you got me in this dead game. I might as well go back and play Madden, at least it's guranteed I'll see 11 other players." Only one stayed.

Now I aint too keen on force teaming and stuff, hell I found having to have a team for the TF/SF was a great bore to me as if it wasnt farming ITF, AE, or farming the first three Incarnate Trials, the rest of them got pushed on the back burner and hard to find and form team for those especially like the shard. Of course as usual, after the fact someone piped up, saying their group keyword their group ran shard tf often. Well hello, then, if ya didnt publicize it then how is one to know they even exist?
I kind of wish COX population wasnt so clique oriented. Ya have to know someone that know someone that know someone to get in. Otherwise it's looks like a ghost town and no one speaks until ya say the magic words, "it looks like a ghost town." Then a few pop up and then go back quiet.

Optimus Dex

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Re: Do you think the game got TOO user friendly at the end?
« Reply #74 on: June 30, 2013, 04:02:22 AM »
I think the private channels led to some problems. Made the City look less inhabited. Trainers as costume shops were not helpful especially when they put an Icon in Atlas. Streetsweeping- one of my favorite activities was nerfed in favor of instanced missions.  Personally I loved getting travel powers earlier than lvl14.  If you make a superspeedster but he can't  Speed Or a Hawkman homage that can't fly that was immersion breaking.


dwturducken

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Re: Do you think the game got TOO user friendly at the end?
« Reply #76 on: July 01, 2013, 12:06:01 AM »
Weirdly, Champions Online takes the Signature characters to the other extreme. Defender is really to poster child for useless, unless he's in the mission to"penetrate from the rear," which he seems pretty good at. There was another mission with Witchcraft that I kind of blame on the AI, because she would have actually been a help.

The signature characters should be there for a reason, and it shouldn't be to stand there while you follow their instructions (like, "Open this door to the Warroom of Earth's mightiest super team!) or follow you around like Fusionette or Lady Grey. It's interesting that the two non-comic IP spandex games could be created by the same studio and still be so far apart in quality of writing, particularly in their handling of their signature characters.

The major fantasy MMO that shall not be named, or WoMFMMOTSNBN, kind of can get away with the bossiness because of the implied feudal nature of the setting, but I do get where you're coming from.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

silvers1

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Re: Do you think the game got TOO user friendly at the end?
« Reply #77 on: July 01, 2013, 12:56:54 PM »
Quote
It did start to look like a ghost town. And only time people piped up to let you know they were there is when someone said it looked like a ghost town. Otherwise they were invisible, on prtivate chat channeles,

Not sure which servers you guys played on,but at least on Freedom the help and broadcast channels were always full of spam and chit-chat.
The private channels I joined were used primarily for setting up raids - such as Hamidon.
Never felt dead to me, at least from a channel perspective.

The zones, on the other hand, did look pretty empty.

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Mysterious J

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Re: Do you think the game got TOO user friendly at the end?
« Reply #78 on: July 01, 2013, 02:04:18 PM »
I actually liked it visually less crowded.  It's hard to feel like you're Batman breaking into an abandoned building in a deserted section of the city to confront Frostfire when there's a crowd of costumed heroes outside the place like it was a Neil Gaiman signing.

thunderforce

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Re: Do you think the game got TOO user friendly at the end?
« Reply #79 on: July 01, 2013, 03:54:36 PM »
Now I started playing at the end of August 2004 and the streets and skies were full of heroes, and suddenly, they weren't.

I know this is a deeply unpopular opinion, but in my view what really did it was the introduction of grinding at the level cap via Inventions and Incarnates. Before then, what were you going to do at 50? Go back to the character creator; and early on, the low-level game had a significant fraction of veteran players (not in the literal sense of veteran badges, obviously) with the obvious result that Atlas, Galaxy, Kings Row, even the Hollows were full of people. That gives a good impression to a new player - regularly teaming with people who obviously know their way around the game and enjoy it.

Later on, if you wanted to team you basically had to want to see an awful lot of the Imperious Task Force (or the Croatoa one when that was the most rewarding.)