Author Topic: Question for the legal eagles here...  (Read 4561 times)

Lycantropus

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Question for the legal eagles here...
« on: June 03, 2013, 04:17:12 PM »
And some food for thought...

This has been stewing in the back of my mind for a while, with folks debating the use/right of private servers/emulators.

A while back, Sam Raimi almost lost the rights to the "Evil Dead" trademark to another company simply by going on public record saying he had no intention of doing anything more with the Evil Dead franchise in terms of a sequel.

An article explaining the story:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/sam-raimi-sues-rights-evil-dead-sequel-320375

Now I know this is somewhat different, but if NCSoft has abandoned the City of Heroes trademark, and has gone on very public record with no plans to do anything more with it, would projects such as emulators be potentially protected by that same 'fair use' reasoning? Coupled with the fact it's been discussed that we at least 'own' the data on our disks and creating a unique (not NCSoft design/owned) program that allows us to use those assets...

Again, may be a different barrel of fish we're shooting at, but could there be something to that?

Lyc~

Mazz vs The World

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Re: Question for the legal eagles here...
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2013, 04:43:18 PM »
I think the difference is that COH is copyright not a trademark. This sums up the abandonment laws for trademarks:

http://www.mcbride-law.com/2010/08/12/when-is-a-trademark-abandoned/

Here is what I found about abandonment of a copyright. It says that the owner has to intentionally abandon the copyright.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/a/abandonment-of-copyright/

I did find this information useful though perhaps NCSoft could license the work (COH) under a scheme for public use?? Found this on wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonment#Abandonment_of_copyright

Glad you brought this up though could have some potential in regard to fighting back legally.


downix

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Re: Question for the legal eagles here...
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2013, 05:29:02 PM »
No, he is referring to a trademark. There is also copyright at work, but if they did abandon the trademark, a new City of Heroes game, without any ties to the legacy, could be done.

Ironwolf

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Re: Question for the legal eagles here...
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2013, 05:56:52 PM »
The name City of Heroes could be used.

There are a ton of games out there with the same names, same with books.

Kosmos

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Re: Question for the legal eagles here...
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2013, 09:16:18 PM »
The name City of Heroes could be used.

There are a ton of games out there with the same names, same with books.

I'm afraid that's because there are no trademarks involved. You couldn't use City of Heroes in the software gaming industry in the US without NCSoft taking legal action... and winning easily.


JaguarX

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Re: Question for the legal eagles here...
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2013, 09:41:47 PM »
I'm afraid that's because there are no trademarks involved. You couldn't use City of Heroes in the software gaming industry in the US without NCSoft taking legal action... and winning easily.

Yeah, NCSOFT have Live trademarks registered for

CITY OF HEROES FREEDOM
CITY OF HEROES
CITY OF HEROES GOING ROGUE
 
And the design of how they did the logos- USSN-76415344  Registration number-2852529



But... CITY OF VILLAINS trademark is dead due to being cancelled on Jan 4 2013.


The City of Heroes 2 trademarks was labeled dead due to being abandoned  USSN-85004611-May 20, 2013 and 85004608-
May 20, 2013. Hmmmm. Anyone interested in picking up City of Heroes 2 title?

And Goin Rogue (aka not City of Heroes Going Rogue) is registered to some guy in Penn. And some person in Alaska had Sarah Palin's Going Rogue Rogue but it's been abandoned (a wine label) probably some wine deal that fell through.

The Fifth Horseman

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Re: Question for the legal eagles here...
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2013, 09:50:52 PM »
Gentelmen.
Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to come up with an IP that can be used to take the City of Villains trademark away from NCSoft without infringing on NCSoft's CoV IP. :p
We were heroes. We were villains. At the end of the world we all fought as one. It's what we did that defines us.
The end occurred pretty much as we predicted: all servers redlining until midnight... and then no servers to go around.

Somewhere beyond time and space, if you look hard you might find a flash of silver trailing crimson: a lone lost Spartan on his way home.

JaguarX

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Re: Question for the legal eagles here...
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2013, 09:54:53 PM »
Gentelmen.
Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to come up with an IP that can be used to take the City of Villains trademark away from NCSoft without infringing on NCSoft's CoV IP. :p
Should be easy enough.

There is really nothing to take since it's dead.

Someone just commercialize it and apply...before NCSoft does so again.

HeatSpike1

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Re: Question for the legal eagles here...
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2013, 10:28:37 PM »
Even if we can't use the name ''City of Heroes''...

Can we at least use all of the content?

Zones, Enemies, Storylines - essentially everything within City of Heroes excluding the title

The Fifth Horseman

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Re: Question for the legal eagles here...
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2013, 10:44:09 PM »
That's kind of the opposite of what's discussed here. :p
We were heroes. We were villains. At the end of the world we all fought as one. It's what we did that defines us.
The end occurred pretty much as we predicted: all servers redlining until midnight... and then no servers to go around.

Somewhere beyond time and space, if you look hard you might find a flash of silver trailing crimson: a lone lost Spartan on his way home.

HeatSpike1

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Re: Question for the legal eagles here...
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2013, 10:55:31 PM »
If you can use the name without the game itself, then what's the use?

JaguarX

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Re: Question for the legal eagles here...
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2013, 11:10:02 PM »
If you can use the name without the game itself, then what's the use?

*shrugs*


In most realm the point would be marketing purposes.

Here, I'm not too sure but...even in COH/COV lore there was hints of heroes doing stuff all over the world outside Rogue ISle (Carribean) and Paragon city (RI). Lets say it's the same title but focus on COV actions based in say, San Diego or something with a different villain group and gangs runnign the joint there. And remember things can be "referenced" without being "referenced". Like a NPC could say "That spider group creeps me out. They tried taking over here once but they was no match." We insiders know probably what it means but then on the outside who can prove we are actually talking about Arachnos? We could be talking about any spider based villain group or even a group that are actual mutated spiders.  Or "I heard on the East coast the most famous hero died." Little hints "linking" the storylines without "linking" the storylines. Or hell the title could be City of Villains:*insert title* and the main group of NPCs could be characters from ex players that just so happened to move away from RI and Carribean Islands to somewhere even like Greenland to finally strike out ontheir own and not work for "the spider group" anymore.

Captain Electric

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Re: Question for the legal eagles here...
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2013, 01:12:47 AM »
Gentelmen.
Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to come up with an IP that can be used to take the City of Villains trademark away from NCSoft without infringing on NCSoft's CoV IP. :p

When we all have the game back in some way via server emulation, I actually expect the community's tone is going to shift regarding NCSoft. VERY few of your peers will appreciate you for going near the giant ogre in question and saying, "HEY! HEY LOOK OVER HERE!!! LOOK WHAT WE'RE DOING NEENER NEENER!!!!"

In the early days of the Earth and Beyond emulator, before anyone was sure what EA might do, even mentioning EA on the emulator's community forums in a negative tone would get you a warning or a temporary ban; worse if you didn't take the hint. It was a tough choice that the majority voted on in order to keep themselves from doing something stupid that might make things worse for everybody in the end.

Here's what will always be true, whether we scream it or whisper it: NCSoft let us down. And we can also say without hyperbole or exaggeration that they stabbed a dedicated, talented development team in the back. That was the worst incident of its kind I've ever heard about for an MMO studio. It was the business equivalent of the villain murdering the hero in public view of the world, and simply walking to the bank unhindered and depositing the cash out of the hero's wallet.

This will always be part of the game's history, part of our history, part of the industry's history. Ever wonder why more studios are going indie from the get-go? Ever wonder why some of the PC gaming industry's most revered veterans, masters of the cult classics within their genres, are turning to kickstarters rather than turning to big publishers? We're not the only ones who see the writing on the wall. Publishers are exceeding their intended reach, becoming increasingly cutthroat, everybody knows it. I remember being surprised by a conversation with a player in the E&B emu one time, who said she wouldn't invest time in any MMO (even a F2P one) until a server emulator popped up for it--as a matter of principle. Her words were something like, "You know that fool me once, fool me twice saying? I'm a happily reformed former poster child."

Everything above, we all know it; but we'll build a new era for City of Heroes by focusing on the present and the future, not the past.

One more thing about the E&B emu. There are new players there who don't have any clue who published the game, who never played it back then. The drama of the past isn't any of their business, they don't care, they are just playing a game they like. Beating drums and waving banners of hatred for my personal cause in their faces wouldn't make them see the light, it would just annoy them.

So when a new CoH player shows up in the community server and says, "I'm here from GW2/Wildstar/whatever", and is ridiculed for it, that will be our community being the bad guys, not NCSoft.  And this is coming from a guy who is still boycotting NCSoft. There are aspects of this that I'll never move on from or forget, and there are aspects where it is crucial to move on. This is where "not moving on" will hurt us, and might even make us hurtful toward others. Food for thought.

JaguarX

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Re: Question for the legal eagles here...
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2013, 01:51:24 AM »
When we all have the game back in some way via server emulation, I actually expect the community's tone is going to shift regarding NCSoft. VERY few of your peers will appreciate you for going near the giant ogre in question and saying, "HEY! HEY LOOK OVER HERE!!! LOOK WHAT WE'RE DOING NEENER NEENER!!!!"

In the early days of the Earth and Beyond emulator, before anyone was sure what EA might do, even mentioning EA on the emulator's community forums in a negative tone would get you a warning or a temporary ban; worse if you didn't take the hint. It was a tough choice that the majority voted on in order to keep themselves from doing something stupid that might make things worse for everybody in the end.

Here's what will always be true, whether we scream it or whisper it: NCSoft let us down. And we can also say without hyperbole or exaggeration that they stabbed a dedicated, talented development team in the back. That was the worst incident of its kind I've ever heard about for an MMO studio. It was the business equivalent of the villain murdering the hero in public view of the world, and simply walking to the bank unhindered and depositing the cash out of the hero's wallet.

This will always be part of the game's history, part of our history, part of the industry's history. Ever wonder why more studios are going indie from the get-go? Ever wonder why some of the PC gaming industry's most revered veterans, masters of the cult classics within their genres, are turning to kickstarters rather than turning to big publishers? We're not the only ones who see the writing on the wall. Publishers are exceeding their intended reach, becoming increasingly cutthroat, everybody knows it. I remember being surprised by a conversation with a player in the E&B emu one time, who said she wouldn't invest time in any MMO (even a F2P one) until a server emulator popped up for it--as a matter of principle. Her words were something like, "You know that fool me once, fool me twice saying? I'm a happily reformed former poster child."

Everything above, we all know it; but we'll build a new era for City of Heroes by focusing on the present and the future, not the past.

One more thing about the E&B emu. There are new players there who don't have any clue who published the game, who never played it back then. The drama of the past isn't any of their business, they don't care, they are just playing a game they like. Beating drums and waving banners of hatred for my personal cause in their faces wouldn't make them see the light, it would just annoy them.

So when a new CoH player shows up in the community server and says, "I'm here from GW2/Wildstar/whatever", and is ridiculed for it, that will be our community being the bad guys, not NCSoft.  And this is coming from a guy who is still boycotting NCSoft. There are aspects of this that I'll never move on from or forget, and there are aspects where it is crucial to move on. This is where "not moving on" will hurt us, and might even make us hurtful toward others. Food for thought.
+1

MindBlender

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Re: Question for the legal eagles here...
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2013, 04:28:50 AM »
Just remember...no matter how it was slotted...you always flew slower backwards ;)
All my computer skill was used up on my Commodore 64 decades ago...

Lycantropus

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Re: Question for the legal eagles here...
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2013, 06:52:35 AM »
Just remember...no matter how it was slotted...you always flew slower backwards ;)
That's where I'm kind of thinking based on some of the responses. Though I think others get where I'm coming from.

Trademarks also represent specific names (like Synapse or Positron- hope he's paying attention too- he may be able to get his character back in fair use if he cares enough) Copyright, at face value anyway as far as I know, deal with printed works. While code is debatable depending on the lawsuit (referring to what's available on our disks and downloaded to our computers) but 'fanfiction' or new works may not be under copyright. Sure we can't run Miriam Bloechi's old arc- that's theirs, but could we run another one with her dealing with a different story and writing against the same group in an 'advanced' storyline (al-la a player built Co-2)?

This may be particularly useful if there's no direct profit to be made. Personally I don't care about profit, I just want *my City* back.

I think this would be 'the long way' around breaking down their ownership while building our rights to 'fair use' but it might be something to think about. Such examples exist in terms of 'fanfiction' all around.

Does 'how' that 'fanfiction' interact with a folder in your C drive legally matter? Maybe, but that's the heart of my question. I don't know.

If that's not viable... what, from there, might be?

Lyc~

downix

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Re: Question for the legal eagles here...
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2013, 12:21:01 AM »
Yeah, NCSOFT have Live trademarks registered for

CITY OF HEROES FREEDOM
CITY OF HEROES
CITY OF HEROES GOING ROGUE
 
And the design of how they did the logos- USSN-76415344  Registration number-2852529



But... CITY OF VILLAINS trademark is dead due to being cancelled on Jan 4 2013.


The City of Heroes 2 trademarks was labeled dead due to being abandoned  USSN-85004611-May 20, 2013 and 85004608-
May 20, 2013. Hmmmm. Anyone interested in picking up City of Heroes 2 title?

And Goin Rogue (aka not City of Heroes Going Rogue) is registered to some guy in Penn. And some person in Alaska had Sarah Palin's Going Rogue Rogue but it's been abandoned (a wine label) probably some wine deal that fell through.
Sorry, Coh2 is still active:

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4801:ri9n59.2.3

JaguarX

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Re: Question for the legal eagles here...
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2013, 12:31:05 AM »
Sorry, Coh2 is still active:

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4801:ri9n59.2.3

Yup. overlooked that one. there is three. Thought it was the two. But one is still living according to the records. Thanks for pointing that out. Not sure how I missed that one.