The Community Server Shouldn't Be Central; Shouldn't be Massive Multiplayer

[Captain Electric]

Here's the tl;dr right at the start: The more I've learned about NCSoft's history of easily shutting down games and fighting hard to keep them dead, the more I've realized that a central, dedicated host server list would become a death knell for the revived game. The solution is the Freelancer model that was talked about by Chris Roberts at the PAX East panel in regards to City of Heroes and the subject of keeping games alive after publisher disinterest. Interestingly, I still play Freelancer online every so often and this is exactly the model that has allowed me to do it. (I'm a big fan of the Battlestar Galactica conversions. )

------------------------------
More words

It won't matter to their lawyers if we players change every signature character and line of text in the game; I say "we" because the code monkeys aren't planning on doing that part for us--they're giving us a tabula rasa to help fend off the lawyers who will be sniffing out trademark violations. Of course I don't think this will entirely work. It doesn't matter if the server is written from scratch; because the lawyers aren't likely to be tech savvy enough to think beyond the mere fact that players are playing City of Heroes again in any form--and NCSoft will be paying them to make that situation stop. Now the core EULA-dodging aspect of this paragraph deserves its own thread (it already has a few, actually), so what I'm asking people to focus on instead is the simple consequence of having NCSoft's lawyers come after us: any centrally located server will be the first target.

Ideally, the server software should be optimized to run on normal to high-end gaming PCs alongside the client (or at worst a separate dedicated server box that can be built for under $500), so that friends all over the world can organize over instant messaging programs or VOIP or Steam or private guild forums, and play the game without fear of being noticed by NCSoft's eye in the sky. And the project's source code should be made freely available upon release of the community server, to aid in wide dispersal around the Internet, as a pre-preemptive measure against the inevitable cease and desist notice before it arrives. (It will be far more trouble for you guys if you release the code after receiving a cease and desist.)

This is the most likely avenue to getting a healthy AND SAFE game out in the wild, with some diverse and competing code branches pumping out updates.

Maybe sometime in the future, 10 years or so, when NCSoft's reigns have changed hands, or their stance has softened, or they've abandoned MMOs to be the king of mobile app sweatshops or whatever, someone can raise up a central massive server and fling open its doors. If you do this any time soon, you're just painting a target on your chest, and the surrounding fallout is likely to put people off of returning to the game in any form.

[JanessaVR]

I agree - I've already been thinking these points for some time now.  It doesn't matter how careful our (brave, loyal, dedicated, and very much appreciated!) reverse-engineers and community-server coders are, NCSoft will doubtless sue anyway.  As has been noted here more than once, they are the Honey Badger of the gaming world, and they just don't care.

[JaguarX]

hmmm.

You're right about this.

A big central location is easy target and if they wait unti C&D to disperse code then they wont go after much the ones tha tget it but the ones that dispersed it. And usually it's an open and closed case if ya wait after to recieve a C&D to do that and they will have their way wit hya in court as then the defense of "i didnt know" aint going to work and dispersing the code after wards look like malicious intent. And remember most normal players have no idea what the laws and a letter or notice fro mthe lawyers of "We are taking this *insert central hub of private server* to court and suing the shit ouf them and anyone that continue to partake here is also liable to end up in court wit ha lawsuit." Most people will be hell, it aint worth it even if they cant realisticaly find everyone everywhere. Think about how many of those peer sharing sites went under. There were a few people that got sued individually for using a particular site and the company won in many cases and drove the poor sap that just wanted to listen to their favorite song into financial trouble probably for the rest of their natural life. And that one is one out of the thousands that never got caught and even downloaded way more songs. But the effects were the same. "Hey dont use that site, they may sue ya." Even though the overall chance was very very lottery small.

But say if things were spread from the get go and underground and quiet with no central, then they probably wont bother trying to  gather straws in the wind unless they are somehow able to pin down the originator.

That soundsl ike good idea Cap.

[Ironwolf]

I have said this repeatedly and i know some of those working on the reverse engineering feel the same way - Get it working - then post it in the wild and let hundreds of servers appear.

If NCSoft was to sue it would actually be fairly easy to defend - they allow private servers to exist in almost all of their other games and since this one does not generate revenue and does not affect their content since no Official game exists. In fact it could be shown it would benefit them as it keeps interest up for a sequel.

[Captain Electric]

I have said this repeatedly and i know some of those working on the reverse engineering feel the same way - Get it working - then post it in the wild and let hundreds of servers appear.

If NCSoft was to sue it would actually be fairly easy to defend - they allow private servers to exist in almost all of their other games and since this one does not generate revenue and does not affect their content since no Official game exists. In fact it could be shown it would benefit them as it keeps interest up for a sequel.

This contradicts so much established (and accepted, I had assumed until now--though this proves how perception of fact can be turned on its ear in an instant) data to the contrary, it reads almost as if from some alternate timeline--one for which I would love to have the coordinates and a portal, I might add.

Ironwolf, I'm sure there are folks around here who will shortly be along to dig beneath old scabs. But the arguments you raise were so well-covered so long ago that I must admit, this isn't the discussion I expected to have and I'm not interested in spending an unproductive morning digging up old threads. You have my respect, don't get me wrong, though not my agreement in the least.

[Ironwolf]

Not going to argue just offer this - do a search on any of the top NCSoft titles.

Search - private servers Aion or whatever

You will find literally hundreds of private servers and they are openly advertised.

[Illusionss]

If they are not suing to shut down private servers of games they have running now, I am not sure why a private server of a defunct game would matter.

[dwturducken]

Well, we have gone out of our way to be a thorn in their sides since they shut down our game...

Honestly, as much as I want our game back in any form, I'm really excited by what's coming out of the three successor projects. I know Valiance isn't one of the "official" Plan Z projects, but the stuff that is coming from them is just as exciting. I'm not sure how far along the Sooper Sekrit Sirvir^TM is, but there is a very real possibility of something playable from them before we know it.^*

*Only in the sense that it has been six months "before we knew it."

[Illusionss]

Well, we have gone out of our way to be a thorn in their sides since they shut down our game...

I am not sure they have even noticed any of our efforts, to be honest. Sad but true.

[dwturducken]

I am not sure they have even noticed any of our efforts, to be honest. Sad but true.

They noticed at first. We have that from a couple of sources, one being them saying, "Stop sending things to our individual email addresses!"

That wasn't my point, though. Whether they have actually shown a willingness to act out of caprice is a matter of some debate, but they are not unaware of us. If someone with sway over the legal department decided they wanted to create difficulties for us, this would take about as much effort as directing an assistant to draft a memo to legal. Not saying that I think they would, but I would not put it past them.

[Ironwolf]

Aion - top 100 private server list: http://topofgames.com/Aion/
Guild wars - how to build your own private server http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atLjONunFt0
Lineage II - Top 200 private servers - http://www.gamesites200.com/lineage2/
Guild Wars 2 - http://gtoplist.com/GW2/


Personally folks - I truly think NCSoft is sitting in South Korea asking why the fuss just start your own private server.

[Captain Electric]

The funny thing is, it was the community who corrected me when I took a similar point of view during the closure, people citing Dungeon Runners, Auto Assault and Tabula Rasa. All of those private servers were in their infancy when they were shut down. The thought of diving back into this discussion is exasperating because there were so many of them; and the "fact" that NCSoft goes after emulators with bloodhounds was beaten into my thick skull not with opinions, but actual links to shut-down projects, cease and desist stories and notices. At this point, beating my original premise back into my skull isn't going to prove anything but schizophrenia for NCSoft, and perhaps a short memory for everyone else. 

Aion - top 100 private server list: http://topofgames.com/Aion/
Guild wars - how to build your own private server http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atLjONunFt0
Lineage II - Top 200 private servers - http://www.gamesites200.com/lineage2/
Guild Wars 2 - http://gtoplist.com/GW2/

Personally folks - I truly think NCSoft is sitting in South Korea asking why the fuss just start your own private server.

And now we have the other side of the coin.

If by some reasoning the Community Server team does intend to throw all of our eggs into one basket and pray, then good luck, it's your project and your choice. I don't think I would have the heart to put my characters on such an endangered target. It's a big foolish risk, all for "the heck of it", because it's not the only way, it's not the safest way.

I'm kind of in a hurry to post, but even if I wasn't, I'm not sure I could add any more to this discussion without repeating so many other people over the past several months.

[zendarin]

NCSOFT goes after some emulators but not others. Perhaps it's not NCSOFT going after the emulators but NCSOFT acting at the request of the studio who made the title.

[Ironwolf]

To be absolutely honest, I out of respect for the Devs believe the community would have reacted to a private server with merciless attacks. This is my personal thoughts on it. I think we would have beaten it into small stains and rinsed the stains away with the tears of those how had dared to try it.

Now however, I think with dawning recognition that the game is dead and buried as far as NCSoft cares, it is no disrespect to our Devs and in fact it cheapens all their hard work to have it expunged from the face of the earth. I don't give evil as the motive when sheer incompetance will fit the bill. I do think it was a business decision and of no hard feelings to the game.

[Noyjitat]

I can honestly say if we didnt do the community server thing the interest to play just wouldnt be there. I would want to team up like I did before and run tfs, trials and msrs. Not have god mode and all powers. Thats not very fun for too long.

[JaguarX]

out of curisosity if things went ideally and the game was eventually ported to single player thing. I assume there is enough knowledge of the code to make it so that the game in the entirely TF and Trials and incarnate trials scaled to suit a single player and or very small group play?

[Brightfires]

Yeah, I'd miss some of the "group activities" if I had a private version of the game running on a server of my own...
But you know, I spent the VAST majority of my play-time in City either soloing or running duo with FCM. Given that, I think I'd be alright with it, even lacking the iTrials and MSRs and all that. As much as I enjoyed them, they honestly weren't the thing that drew me to the game.

[JaguarX]

Yeah, I'd miss some of the "group activities" if I had a private version of the game running on a server of my own...
But you know, I spent the VAST majority of my play-time in City either soloing or running duo with FCM. Given that, I think I'd be alright with it, even lacking the iTrials and MSRs and all that. As much as I enjoyed them, they honestly weren't the thing that drew me to the game.

Yeah I soloed too. And covered much of the arcs and fluff missions. And got bored. Taking 45min-1 hour to form team was the pits, and ten by the time ya get the team and get rolling two or more people have to leave due to their play time available being burnt away waiting for more players to join, not to mention the couple that ends up on the tema that want to speed run everything because they joined a Dr Q with only 30 minutes to play and Dr Q and other shadow shard TFs being cool but not popular and thus, I think even playing since i5 I never got a chance to all of them once and the ones I did only manage to do them once. Those are the times I wished I didnt need a team so I didnt miss out on content because it was the speedrun farm FoTM aka missing out due to or lack of other people.

Iwish one day I can actually run those TFs and not having to stick to farming and speed running the same two or three tirals over and over again because that is what most people are into at that moment or back to the regular content where all the missions seem to be same just reskinned, again, for the hundredth time. 

[Kistulot]

I actually only rejoined about a week or two before the drop of i22, and I was able to get through every TF, trial, and iTrial. Got some of the SFs done redside, but I never really had a redside toon I fell in love with. People were there to do the weirder content if you reached out to people and stepped outside of your comfort zone. My Doctor Q ended with 5 people still there, but we persevered. I can confess I never got the bomb badge from the UG, no matter how many times I tried, but I think that's just the breaks.

Having it so people could make their own servers, while still trying to make one more centralized to me feels like the best idea. Clearly if they want to they can go after any servers anywhere, legitimate of them to do so or not, so it feels best to make it so people can never lose access to creating them... but at the same time, we are a community. The game is a multiplayer game, even if it solos sweetly.

It would be a shame if we lost that preemptively.

[Tanklet]

I -hated- soloing ... I loved jumping on teams, and running teams. I landed on awesome teams more often than not. I couldn't see lasting in a single player version of City ... that's not what I played it for. I loved how easy it was to get onto any variety of random teams.

[JaguarX]

I actually only rejoined about a week or two before the drop of i22, and I was able to get through every TF, trial, and iTrial. Got some of the SFs done redside, but I never really had a redside toon I fell in love with. People were there to do the weirder content if you reached out to people and stepped outside of your comfort zone. My Doctor Q ended with 5 people still there, but we persevered. I can confess I never got the bomb badge from the UG, no matter how many times I tried, but I think that's just the breaks.

Having it so people could make their own servers, while still trying to make one more centralized to me feels like the best idea. Clearly if they want to they can go after any servers anywhere, legitimate of them to do so or not, so it feels best to make it so people can never lose access to creating them... but at the same time, we are a community. The game is a multiplayer game, even if it solos sweetly.

It would be a shame if we lost that preemptively.

well I always reached out. Every TF I did I had to form the team. It just that it seems I wasnt there when you was where the people that was interested in doing thta stuff was. And by the time they logged, there wasnt much interest. Many times especially the Dr Q we had to call it quits because just no one responding or itching to join at that time and space and period I was on and able to do it or any time period I was able to get on, All day weekends, well after 5 on weekdays due to work, and usually the team only call it after about 1.5 to 2 hours of trying to recruit. So it definately not because I wasnt reaching out or not trying that seems to be automatically assumed when people say they couldnt form teams to do the TF. I mean, besides that, it was not exactly there were people lining up 24/7 to do the shard TFs and advertising they are forming a team or else I wouldnt have had to form the team everytime I wanted to do a TF that wasnt the usual ITF or farm thing. It was even worse for redside.

And that is why, given that the population probably will be even smaller than it was in sept 2011, there will be even less people to do those tfs that are not farm centric or the FoTM and thus hope they open up the TFs to solo players that may not be lucky enough to run into people that glad jump on the non-farm non FoTM TFs/Trials and not be hindered because of so. Because then what would be the point of joining any server if it's less secure than before but the same old missions again, and those missions that havent been done yet still cant do them due to lack of people or not having the perfect timing of running into bunch of people itching to do things like Dr Q. I dont think even though it's been over a year, another round of the usual kill CoT, talk to this person across the map talk to that person in that zone, Go across IP for this one little mish, when the stuff I'm interested in still cant be done because it's still team gated. I might as well stay in CO. Not much is team gated and if there is not enough interested in something, outside alerts, you still can dive right on in with what ever you got. Instead of being punished because the focus is farm and FoTM and bad timing of not coming across the few that also like to do that TF at that particular time. It's like the game basically said "Farm like everyone else! Do what every else want to do! You need 8, cant get 8 to do something different? Tough. Now go farm like everyone else?" And as much I wish the private server or what every game succeed no matter what route even with the usual team locked stuff, I personally wont even bother even partaking not a single day again. I aint going back to that every again especially when something offers an alternative that doesnt seem to frown upon solo play for those that either dotn have luck to come across people interesting that particular task, or not social bugs. And before anyone ask "Why play an MMO?"  first no where in MMO does it says teaming is a must. it's multiplayer doesnt say anything about You must team with people all day all the time. Two, if they made console version or PC single player versions that is where I be. Seeing how they didnt or dont, here it is. Three I enjoy the game that doesnt mean I enjoy having to be surrounded by people 24/7 all day all night everytime I want to fight something that involved something more complicated than retrieving a book for Azuria or killing all of a certain group in a cave.

[Captain Electric]

I was wrong about not having anything else to add. 

You all shouldn't see a local server as a solo server, and nothing in the OP even brings up the idea of "solo servers". The idea that you could solo on your private server if you wanted to is a given, but the idea that you could solo on Freedom at peak hours was also a given. Basically, nothing's changed in that sense. If you have an Internet connection and can invite people to come play with you, you're golden. Go find a team. I'm sure the community could find or invent tools to make this easier on everyone, while keeping the game world itself decentralized.

Essentially, a central server would deliver a larger amount of convenience for a larger amount of risk: In return for never having to organize a team over instant messenger, VOIP, Steam or some other method for you or your friends private server, you would be agreeing to paint a huge target on your forehead; on all of our foreheads.

Before you decide that such a risk is worth the convenience--not just speaking for yourself, but for all of us who may not relish the thought of having the game taken away a second time--please don't kid yourself that a central City of Heroes server would ever see peak numbers like the good old days anyway. Some of the damage that NCSoft dealt is permanent. Those good old days are gone for good. I started tinkering with private servers (for personal use) over a decade ago, and it has introduced me to many emulator communities along the way, and I know what I'm talking about. A few hundred concurrent users at peak hours would be the proportional equivalent of Freedom. One day (when a central server is worth the risk hopefully) you'll learn to be happy about it. You'll learn to be happy with 200 concurrent players--at peak time, maybe. Don't get too many stars in your eyes. You'll only be disappointed.

I would be totally willing to use instant messaging tools or a private forum to organize teams on someone's server. I'd even be willing to throw a dedicated server box together and tell my friends about it and some of their friends. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I would be totally willing to use The Sentinel+ Extractor method (if there was a tool available for private server operators) to make sure my friends were playing with current versions of characters from their own private servers, and I'd even be willing to give them whatever resources they lost in the transfer, provided screenshots or heck, maybe just a typed list (bit of "honor system" here, but that's just how I'd do it). I guess that's not much different, actually, than the way people use the same character across multiple campaigns and gaming groups in pen and paper role-playing games.

What I would not be willing to do is leave it running when I'm out of town, create a publicly accessible website about it, announce it to the entire world, rack up thousands of dollars in "server donations".

Yes, I'd be willing to give up, for a while at least, a 100% central and persistent world in order to ensure our game's absolute safety.

Frankly, I think there's a degree of selfishness implicit in asking all of us to take an unnecessary risk alongside you, and play on a central server with you, so that you don't have to put as much effort into organizing a team for yourself.

[JaguarX]

I was wrong about not having anything else to add. 

You all shouldn't see a local server as a solo server, and nothing in the OP even brings up the idea of "solo servers". The idea that you could solo on your private server if you wanted to is a given, but the idea that you could solo on Freedom at peak hours was also a given. Basically, nothing's changed in that sense. If you have an Internet connection and can invite people to come play with you, you're golden. Go find a team. I'm sure the community could find or invent tools to make this easier on everyone, while keeping the game world itself decentralized.

Essentially, a central server would deliver a larger amount of convenience for a larger amount of risk: In return for never having to organize a team over instant messenger, VOIP, Steam or some other method for you or your friends private server, you would be agreeing to paint a huge target on your forehead; on all of our foreheads.

Before you decide that such a risk is worth the convenience--not just speaking for yourself, but for all of us who may not relish the thought of having the game taken away a second time--please don't kid yourself that a central City of Heroes server would ever see peak numbers like the good old days anyway. Some of the damage that NCSoft dealt is permanent. Those good old days are gone for good. I started tinkering with private servers (for personal use) over a decade ago, and it has introduced me to many emulator communities along the way, and I know what I'm talking about. A few hundred concurrent users at peak hours would be the proportional equivalent of Freedom. Learn to be happy about it. Learn to be happy with 200 concurrent players. Don't get too many stars in your eyes. You'll only be disappointed.

I would be totally willing to use instant messaging tools or a private forum to organize teams on someone's server. I'd even be willing to throw a dedicated server box together and tell my friends about it and some of their friends. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I would be totally willing to use The Sentinel+ Extractor method (if there was a tool available for private server operators) to make sure my friends were playing with current versions of characters from their own private servers, and I'd even be willing to give them whatever resources they lost in the transfer, provided screenshots or heck, maybe just a typed list (bit of "honor system" here, but that's just how I'd do it). I guess that's not much different, actually, than the way people use the same character across multiple campaigns and gaming groups in pen and paper role-playing games.

What I would not be willing to do is leave it running when I'm out of town, create a publicly accessible website about it, announce it to the entire world, rack up thousands of dollars in "server donations".

Yes, I'd be willing to give up, for a while at least, a 100% central and persistent world in order to ensure our game's absolute safety.

Frankly, I think there's a degree of selfishness implicit in asking all of us to take an unnecessary risk alongside you, and play on a central server with you, so that you don't have to put as much effort into organizing a team for yourself.

Aint we already kind of announced to the entire world about it? SEGS :p

All kidding aside, yeah the teaming and low numbers, but was wondering if the stuff will still be team gated or be a way to ungate it. Even if using instant messager with a pool of possible 200 and assuming you manage to get ahold of their contact and then assuming you do assuming they are available at that time, it sounds like the days in the exact way that COX was when it kicked bucket, the days of incarnate trials, most TFS, Trials, and anything gated for a team is over and there for decoration unless ya happen to be a social media maven.

[Captain Electric]

Not necessarily Jaguar. But you made me think.

Maybe the best scenario is one that gives players a choice. Just like Paragon Studios liked to do for us. Give us our choices.

I still think that's the scenario in the OP.

The way I figure it, for every several people like me, there'd be at least one person who set up a 99% persistent box or server rental, flung open its doors to say, "COME GET YOUR PERSISTENT SERVER, RIGHT HERE. COME GET YOUR INCARNATE TRIALS."

That would happen. I guarantee you it would happen. Eventually (like happens), people would converge onto the server(s) that had the best management. I'd even go make characters on a server like that (or transfer my characters to them if it were allowed).

But my main character copies would reside locally or at least on a smaller-scale, invite-only persistent server, where I'd know they were safe. For the immediate future, given NCSoft's (at best) unpredictability with regards to c&d's, that's the safe route. The underground route.

Plus, the big public servers would do people like me a huge favor. They'd ensure my underground server's peon status.

And not only would it take the heat off smaller servers, it would take some of the scent off the people coding the server. I absolutely don't think the people coding the server should be the ones operating it publicly. NCSoft is not our cute and cuddly friend. 

[JaguarX]

Not necessarily Jaguar. But you made me think.

Maybe the best scenario is one that gives players a choice. Just like Paragon Studios liked to do for us. Give us our choices.

I still think that's the scenario in the OP.

The way I figure it, for every several people like me, there'd be at least one person who set up a 99% persistent box or server rental, flung open its doors to say, "COME GET YOUR PERSISTENT SERVER, RIGHT HERE. COME GET YOUR INCARNATE TRIALS."

That would happen. I guarantee you it would happen. Eventually (like happens), people would converge onto the server(s) that had the best management. I'd even go make characters on a server like that (or transfer my characters to them if it were allowed).

But my main character copies would reside locally or at least on a smaller-scale, invite-only persistent server, where I'd know they were safe. For the immediate future, given NCSoft's (at best) unpredictability with regards to c&d's, that's the safe route. The underground route.

Plus, the big public servers would do people like me a huge favor. They'd ensure my underground server's peon status.

And not only would it take the heat off smaller servers, it would take some of the scent off the people coding the server. I absolutely don't think the people coding the server should be the ones operating it publicly. NCSoft is not our cute and cuddly friend. 

Yea. Ncsoft is unpreciatable. Looking at the list of private servers are games that are mostly still around they havent bothered or at least publically went after but the ones they did go after were ones they shut down, each one they shut down they seemed to C&D known private servers. Usually many game companies do it the other way around, not care for private server of closed games much but will tag private servers of games that are still in operation especially if they feel their pockets are getting light.

But You're right, best to do it in a manner where we are not saying "Look at me look at me. I got a private server. Dare you to do something." to NCsoft. Because they just might and remember they dotn have to win. they just git to bury a few people in so much legal fees that they cant afford to buy a pack of ramen noodles.

[Phaetan]

Honestly, I'd be quite content running solo.  Or even setting up a private one for Taci and myself to use and not have the four digit ping times to the rest of the internet.

Mostly, though, I want to run around walloping dim criminals with my favorite characters...

[Captain Electric]

But You're right, best to do it in a manner where we are not saying "Look at me look at me. I got a private server. Dare you to do something." to NCsoft. Because they just might and remember they dotn have to win. they just git to bury a few people in so much legal fees that they cant afford to buy a pack of ramen noodles.

Well yeah, but judging from some responses here, that is exactly what some people plan on doing or would like others to do on their behalf.

All I'm asking [practically begging] for is the opportunity to have the game back in some form, without having to get near that situation with a ten-foot pole. And judging from some other responses here and in previous threads since the shutdown, I'm faaarrrrrr from the only one.

It would be cool to just be able to get on my Steam friends list and message some pals, "Yo, my server's up. Wanna fight some crime?" After the last several months, I'd settle for that, and I'd feel a lot more confident about the inherently minuscule risk!

[JanessaVR]

It would be cool to just be able to get on my Steam friends list and message some pals, "Yo, my server's up. Wanna fight some crime?" After the last several months, I'd settle for that, and I'd feel a lot more confident about the inherently minuscule risk!

I was thinking more of the same - quietly hosting an unlabeled private CoH server somewhere, and looking up friends from the game to issue them private invitations.  Of course, if we could find someplace to host it (outside the U.S.), a central server would be nice, too.  And I'd pay them a monthly subscription fee, too.  If we're changing everything to be lawsuit-proof, what not?  And I think they deserve some $ for their efforts.

[JaguarX]

I was thinking more of the same - quietly hosting an unlabeled private CoH server somewhere, and looking up friends from the game to issue them private invitations.  Of course, if we could find someplace to host it (outside the U.S.), a central server would be nice, too.  And I'd pay them a monthly subscription fee, too.  If we're changing everything to be lawsuit-proof, what not?  And I think they deserve some $ for their efforts.

Yup but have to be careful with the money part as that can be the gift drop to proof of running private server for profit if going to the private server owner and not careful about it. Or if ya talking about money going to NCSoft that is basically advertising "Looks at me look at me. I have a private server."

If someone steals your car, and send you $150 in the mail every month that doesnt nullify the fact that they stole ya car does it. If that guy get caught and said the car is his now because he pay you $150 a month, it probably wouldnt fly. In fact it probably make it easier to catch em if he did send you money a month. Unless ya agree that although they stole the car and since they are paying you, they have claim to it now. Well hell then, I better get busy stealing stuff and as long as I send them check I'm not breaking a law. I seen this TV I liked I think I might go and steal it. I think I'll send them $400. That should cover it. :p

[JanessaVR]

If someone steals your car, and send you $150 in the mail every month that doesnt nullify the fact that they stole ya car does it. If that guy get caught and said the car is his now because he pay you $150 a month, it probably wouldnt fly. In fact it probably make it easier to catch em if he did send you money a month. Unless ya agree that although they stole the car and since they are paying you, they have claim to it now. Well hell then, I better get busy stealing stuff and as long as I send them check I'm not breaking a law. I seen this TV I liked I think I might go and steal it. I think I'll send them $400. That should cover it. :p

Bad example.  The whole idea is, after having scrubbed all direct CoH references out, it's not legally considered stealing (still won't stop NCSoft from filing a suit in court, but that's another issue).  Of course, if there's an interface to rename certain groups and people on your PC, such that the officially-named "Demon Worshippers" street gang on the community server shows up as the "Hellions" gang on your PC, based on a locally-stored .txt file that essentially provides a translation guide for "If A, show B on the screen," well then, that's not something the community server's administrators can be expected to control, or be legally liable for, now is it?   

[JaguarX]

Bad example.  The whole idea is, after having scrubbed all direct CoH references out, it's not legally considered stealing (still won't stop NCSoft from filing a suit in court, but that's another issue).  Of course, if there's an interface to rename certain groups and people on your PC, such that the officially-named "Demon Worshippers" street gang on the community server shows up as the "Hellions" gang on your PC, based on a locally-stored .txt file that essentially provides a translation guide for "If A, show B on the screen," well then, that's not something the community server's administrators can be expected to control, or be legally liable for, now is it?   

No, good example.

You just made my point that I was getting at.

Of course if no COX reference and it's new stuff and no COX NCSOFT owned stuff of course it aint stealing.

If to the private server, no matter what NCSoft might try something and thus dont give them any leverage like looking like it's for profit if their stuff will be used. but if none of their stuff wont be used and it's dead certain it's absoulutely legal, then what is with the hiding as if the knowledge of doing something illegal is going on? Aka, dont give them anything to bite on. If they choose to try something let it be empty attempt and let them do the work in trying to find something instead of just handing it to them with a red bow and gift wrapping.

[Illusionss]

To be absolutely honest, I out of respect for the Devs believe the community would have reacted to a private server with merciless attacks. This is my personal thoughts on it. I think we would have beaten it into small stains and rinsed the stains away with the tears of those who had dared to try it.

Agree with this assessment.

Now however, I think with dawning recognition that the game is dead and buried as far as NCSoft cares, it is no disrespect to our Devs and in fact it cheapens all their hard work to have it expunged from the face of the earth.

Its so great, that we cannot let it go gently into that good night - not even if we have to log into Atlas and fly around a zone empty of life except for us, and some bits of trash blowing in the wind.

Now that is a good game.

[Little David]

If they are not suing to shut down private servers of games they have running now, I am not sure why a private server of a defunct game would matter.

Ask the Tabula Rasa player base.

NCSoft has been adamant about quashing attempts by the TR players to revive their game through server emulation. Infinite Rasa was the most prominsing project, and it got quashed by a cease and desist order.

[Ironwolf]

I would say the Tabula Rasa game is an exception. The lawsuits with Richard Garrett and all the other issues, I think they were left with no choice.

[Kistulot]

I think an important thing to note though...

As one of the people just crossing my fingers unable to really offer my time or expertise to the project (too much of the former, too little of the later) which may or may not be progressing, I feel its important that we temper any desires with "But hey, you're the one(s) putting in the hard time, whatever you do that you feel is best for the game that's cool. Just chippin' in a few two cents."

I imagine I am not in the minority with this either, but I don't want to speak for anyone. So for you brave souls out there chippin' away at code, we totally trust you to do what you think is best and not endanger the future of CoH efforts - and any calls to caution or otherwise are just us trying to be helpful in any way we can because it kills us to be sittin around not able to help.

edit: one(s) originally used square brackets as one would use for various corrections... places where HTML kicking in would not be an issue. Ugh. Derp on my part, sorry.

[TimtheEnchanter]

Out of curiosity, is anyone in any of the SWG emu communities? Curious as to what's been going through their heads now that Lucas (who supported fan projects to the max as long as they were non-profit) has handed Star Wars over to Disney (one of the most paranoid copyright owners in the world).

[Illusionss]

Sorry, if anyone stole a car it was NCSoft stealing MY car. They took my car, that I PAID FOR.

I have no qualms whatsoever in hiring a repo man to get me my car BACK. Its my car and I want to drive it, not see it rusting away behind a padlocked fence for no reason.

[JanessaVR]

Sorry, if anyone stole a car it was NCSoft stealing MY car. They took my car, that I PAID FOR.

I have no qualms whatsoever in hiring a repo man to get me my car BACK. Its my car and I want to drive it, not see it rusting away behind a padlocked fence for no reason.

I rather concur.  After the multiple thousands of $s I spent on CoH, I want my game back, too.

[Mazz vs The World]

I know legally NC$oft had the right to close the game and all that jazz. BUT has anyone ever thought of getting a bunch of the community together and suing NC$OFT for the rights to play the game independently?? I don't see why we couldn't do this. I mean we would lose most likely but it could help us at the same time?? Pain is gain right or something like that. Just an idea don't kill me for suggesting it! 

[JaguarX]

I know legally NC$oft had the right to close the game and all that jazz. BUT has anyone ever thought of getting a bunch of the community together and suing NC$OFT for the rights to play the game independently?? I don't see why we couldn't do this. I mean we would lose most likely but it could help us at the same time?? Pain is gain right or something like that. Just an idea don't kill me for suggesting it! 

Well from the looks of it, since NCSoft "stole", it should be shut and closed case of automatic win. :p There should be lawyers jumping through hoops to get a piece of this easy case.

First though, to do this seriously we probably have to figure what rights we actually have. I mean ACTUAL RIGHTS. Not rights think deserving because we paid a monthly subscription.

Then we have to figure out in the suit of why should they be force to relinquish use of their property. Just because you rent a car even for months and the rental company decides they no longer want to rent that particular model and decides to not renew the rental contract doesnt mean the person that rented the vehicle have automatic life time use rights to it even if they rented for 3-6 months and put gas in it.

Lastly, to pull it off, have to look at it from a legal standpoint and not "I played a game for years and they took it, and I want it back so I'm suing them because I want to play the game." I think like from some angle like, what about the useless disks they sold that is now useless, but they could counter that the consumer was warned and agreed to that they could shut down the game any time and only owned the rights to the stuff that is on that disk and not life time access. But then, how would player made access to a disk, which the player own, making it useful again, be harmful to NCSoft in damages since the player made access is not ncsoft thus player made server is nothing but making use of player owned property, as long as the ncsoft code IP or Trademarks and copyright stuff is used. And given that players own that disk and stuff that is on that hard copy and files, shouldnt they have the right to find a use for it, a property that they bought and now own? And that means, unless there is trademark, IP, or code use violation, then ncsoft should nto be allowed to shut down private servers given that since the game is now defunct, there is no money loss for NCSoft, and it's not using anything on their end or using up their resources but merely using what the player actually bought and making use of that investment and since the player owns that disk, should a corporation have a right to limit that use anymore than player have a right to limit ncsoft the use of their servers? If ncsoft can shut down their servers for the product a server they own rightfully, that should keyword should mean players should be able to use the product they own for as long as they wish as long as it doesnt violate ncsoft copyright, IP, trademark or rights to the code.

But yet since they didnt seem to have tried to shut down a private server yet for COX, how can we sue them for those rights since they havent made a move? Unless we set up a dummy one and provoke them into action and then use that as a springboard to sue for the right to operate the private server.

Bonus tip-And definately in the court of law dont want to come off as a bunch of gamers that is merely pissed because they took the game. Remember, many people cant relate and already have stigma that gamers will rally to play a game, rally when they lose a game, but ignore real world problems around them because their entire life revolve around games instead of something "productive". And probably best to get a jurisdiction that is already irked at corporations. And of course dont want to appear to be friv. lawsuit and definately dont want to lose and get counter sued.


Remember they lost the Garrot thing but remember Garrot wasnt exactly a run of them ill average income or average asset kind of guy so he could afford the best and not to mention it was clear and even that took a hot minute. If we are going to pursue this have to go in proper and leave the emotion blur at the door. Lawsuits is one of those times where ya have to be on the A-game as I dont think many judges or juries will be or can sypasize with a person shedding tears over a game. As much as they sypasize wit ha drug addict suing their dealer because the dealer wont supply them anymore with drugs. They might take it as "Geesh, I think I'm sentencing you to see a psychologist." Rememer make it appear it's more than about the game and something larger that most people can relate to. If going community route, then best believe we have to come off as a community here and out there because if go that route I'm sure NCSoft lawyers will try to poke holes i nthat theory and wouldnt be surprised if they showed up with old forum posts, posts on Massively, to paint it as a witch hunt because the community is angry because of the shut down of their game and didnt give a crap about the other games they shut down and only cared abotu the game and was content even as other games were shutting down around them to play and not say a word but angry when it was their game. And of course have to explain away logically LOGICALLY, why was the EULA agreed to, where it states they can shut down game any moment and when they did, why problem now and not the lawsuit earlier? Maybe no indication of COX was in financial/(whatever the case was) in trouble, the language was not stated in a clear concise manner, it didnt pop up with each log in, something to poke holes into that EULA.

Then if we are the ones that bring it we have to have good case to why should we get the right to play the game independently. I thin kthere are many reasons for that and maybe if anything, there sould be a settlement reached where they allow it without interference from them. But one thing could be a wild card is that Marvel lawsuit. It might be irrelevant or it might be the bane and the true reason why all of this is happening. If say some numb nut decides that since NCSoft isnt runnig the show and decides to build wolverine and marvel hears about it especialy since their own game is coming, who is responsible for that lawsuit from marvel? The private server owner that is runnign the game or NCsoft who created the game? If it's the private server then they better have either good enforcement or stack of money somewhere. If it's NCSoft, then well, there is no reason for them to be forced to give up the right to any of that game if they still will be legally responsible for that type of lawsuit.

[Lightslinger]

They didn't steal anything though. They simply took the game that they owned and chose to no longer operate it. This decision was entirely in their rights to make.

I support a private server initiative more than probably anyone here. I know without a doubt our community will come through and we'll be back home again someday, but that doesn't make it any less illegal. The teams working on these community servers should be very aware that what they're doing should remain underground until the game can be immortal by releasing it into the wild.

[JaguarX]

They didn't steal anything though. They simply took the game that they owned and chose to no longer operate it. This decision was entirely in their rights to make.

I support a private server initiative more than probably anyone here. I know without a doubt our community will come through and we'll be back home again someday, but that doesn't make it any less illegal. The teams working on these community servers should be very aware that what they're doing should remain underground until the game can be immortal by releasing it into the wild.

basically

[Captain Electric]

illegal.

Just a small nitpick--EULAs are written by corporate lawyers, not legislators.

This is for all of you. Please be more careful about tossing the word illegal around. It's a severely loaded word that's capable of causing anxiety, in this case where it's undue. If you're going to use that word, you should be able to quote federal laws alongside it. The reason no one ever does this is because there aren't any federal laws on the matter to quote. When you see people like me say (over and over and over) that all of this exists in a legal gray area, we're not mincing words or obfuscating some actual law somewhere. It exists in a legal gray area because servers and clients and emulators turn into a logical mess of spaghetti in the few cases when they do make it into the courts. This is scary for publishers, because there is a risk that at some point, precedence will be set against their favor at a high level in the courts.

Regardless, the legal process is enormously expensive for the rest of us, and server emulators almost always buckle at the sight of a cease and desist take-down notice. Those are written by corporate lawyers too, by the way, and can say just about anything those lawyers dream up--because they're not restricted by legal or even ethical standards. This is why people sometimes call them legal bullies. That's quite literally what some publishers pay them to be.

Finally, bear in mind that if emulators were literally illegal, publishers would risk nothing by taking all of the emulator creators to court. Companies like EA would not be able to give even limited blessings to fan-based server emulation projects like RunUO and Earth and Beyond Emu, because doing so would mean breaking the law. We would all be living in an alternate reality. Because that's not what happened in our universe.

At this point, armed with new knowledge, you may be asking yourself why you ever used the word illegal in the first place. Well, you probably did it because you heard someone else do it, or because you took the EULA and TOS for a video game as a legal document. Neither will lead to an accurate summary of the legal status of an emulator. Corporations deem EULAs as legally binding contracts, but some of the things publishers have asked players to sign over aren't even allowable in some states and countries; and the nature of a EULA's presentation and "signing" method has also been challenged by some of the same digital rights activists who labor to keep the World Wide Web open and free from government and corporate censorship and regulation--you know, the people who ask you to sign a petition every year or so and who've asked website owners to make their sites go dark for a day.

This issue goes beyond video games, and when you support the idea that software reverse engineering and server emulators are "illegal", you are supporting a whole range of nasty, greedy ideas espoused by the kinds of people who are seeking a wide scope of "ownership" over things that legal philosophers have generally agreed should not be ownable. If you knew what side you were putting yourself on by using the word illegal in this context, you'd probably not be happy with yourself. At all.

TL;DR: If you'd like to groupthink something, groupthink the idea that a non-profit, fan-based server emulation project isn't illegal.

[Captain Electric]

And Jaguar, you already knew better. Shame on you. 

[Ironwolf]

I agree, there is a clear difference in violating a EULA and seeking to profit from a IP.

If you were to open a server in another country and charge subscriptions or use the market to sellitems and rake in aprofit - that is completely different from a free to play community server. One is a business and the other is just an option to play freely. The business would and should be cracked down on. The free server (perhaps asking for funds to be given voluntarily to pay costs) is a new can of worms.

If at some point the code becomes available, I would happily list the costs associated to run the server/website and allow for a voluntary contribution to keep it running with a wide open bank account showing all funds recieved and all expended and what the expense was for. This is how you run a game server in my opinion.

I have hosted Halflife TFC servers and Soldier of Fortune 2 servers in the past. It was roughly $70 a month to do so plus a website at about $7 a month, so roughly $80 a month for a topflight server.

[Lightslinger]

Just a small nitpick--EULAs are written by corporate lawyers, not legislators.

This is for all of you. Please be more careful about tossing the word illegal around. It's a severely loaded word that's capable of causing anxiety, in this case where it's undue. If you're going to use that word, you should be able to quote federal laws alongside it. The reason no one ever does this is because there aren't any federal laws on the matter to quote. When you see people like me say (over and over and over) that all of this exists in a legal gray area, we're not mincing words or obfuscating some actual law somewhere. It exists in a legal gray area because servers and clients and emulators turn into a logical mess of spaghetti in the few cases when they do make it into the courts. This is scary for publishers, because there is a risk that at some point, precedence will be set against their favor at a high level in the courts.

Regardless, the legal process is enormously expensive for the rest of us, and server emulators almost always buckle at the sight of a cease and desist take-down notice. Those are written by corporate lawyers too, by the way, and can say just about anything those lawyers dream up--because they're not restricted by legal or even ethical standards. This is why people sometimes call them legal bullies. That's quite literally what some publishers pay them to be.

Finally, bear in mind that if emulators were literally illegal, publishers would risk nothing by taking all of the emulator creators to court. Companies like EA would not be able to give even limited blessings to fan-based server emulation projects like RunUO and Earth and Beyond Emu, because doing so would mean breaking the law. We would all be living in an alternate reality. Because that's not what happened in our universe.

At this point, armed with new knowledge, you may be asking yourself why you ever used the word illegal in the first place. Well, you probably did it because you heard someone else do it, or because you took the EULA and TOS for a video game as a legal document. Neither will lead to an accurate summary of the legal status of an emulator. Corporations deem EULAs as legally binding contracts, but some of the things publishers have asked players to sign over aren't even allowable in some states and countries; and the nature of a EULA's presentation and "signing" method has also been challenged by some of the same digital rights activists who labor to keep the World Wide Web open and free from government and corporate censorship and regulation--you know, the people who ask you to sign a petition every year or so and who've asked website owners to make their sites go dark for a day.

This issue goes beyond video games, and when you support the idea that software reverse engineering and server emulators are "illegal", you are supporting a whole range of nasty, greedy ideas espoused by the kinds of people who are seeking a wide scope of "ownership" over things that legal philosophers have generally agreed should not be ownable. If you knew what side you were putting yourself on by using the word illegal in this context, you'd probably not be happy with yourself. At all.

TL;DR: If you'd like to groupthink something, groupthink the idea that a non-profit, fan-based server emulation project isn't illegal.

I think a private server comes more into the realm of property, copyrights & patents than an EULA. Basically NCsoft owns CoH and the code (murky with Cryptic here) running it. If a private server uses those things without NCsoft's permission, it is not legal. And I don't get the whole "Do you realize how EVIL AND AWFUL you are for saying this?!!" tone of this reply...

Here's how I determined that: If CoH were still running and a private server project started, isn't that illegal? Most paying players would agree and probably support NCsoft's efforts to shut them down. The current state of CoH does not effect the legality of reverse engineering, only the "moral ground" we choose to justify it now.

Please correct me if I'm wrong on grounds of NCsoft owns the CoH IP and code. I very well may be, but I wasn't referring to the EULA in my post specifically.

That said, the server being non-profit helps the case tremendously, at least on moral grounds anyway. And as I'm sure you know, I support the efforts to get CoH back through reverse engineering 100%.

[JaguarX]

[Sajaana]

[JaguarX]

[dwturducken]

The relevant legal point here, though, is: essential to whom?

[Ironwolf]

It would extremely simple to get a student or 2 on a project and a server could be created and ran based on Educational Use only. You could use it to show how an MMO is structured and the unique points of this game versus other MMO's.

You can indeed reverse engineer a server for Educational purposes.

[JaguarX]

It would extremely simple to get a student or 2 on a project and a server could be created and ran based on Educational Use only. You could use it to show how an MMO is structured and the unique points of this game versus other MMO's.

You can indeed reverse engineer a server for Educational purposes.

There you go.

[Sajaana]

The relevant legal point here, though, is: essential to whom?

Don't take this as official legal advice, but it refers to purposes "essential to the owner of the copy," or the end-user (us).

Copyright protection extends to the exclusive right to distribute a work.  But once a copy of a copyrighted work is lawfully sold or distributed, the copyright holder's interest in the copy is exhausted.

To use an example, Mercedes Lackey has a copyright over her books, which allows her in conjunction with a publisher to copy and distribute her books.  But this right of copy and distribution doesn't give her the right to come to your home and burn your Valdemar books post-sale.  This is what is called the "exhaustion rule," or the "right of first sale": her interest in the media object (the book) ends with the sale.  The person who legally acquires a media object has the right to use or dispose of the media object as the person (not the copyright holder) sees fit.

There are restrictions, of course.  The right of first sale does not give us the right to copy our files and sell them.

But as a Federal software case Vault v. Quaid (1988) states, "Section 117(1) contains no language to suggest that the copy it permits must be employed for a use intended by the copyright owner, and, absent clear congressional guidance to the contrary, we refuse to read such limiting language into this exception."

What this seems to suggest is that a copyright holder can distribute copies of its software, but it cannot dictate how the user must use the copy.

[JaguarX]

Don't take this as official legal advice, but it refers to purposes "essential to the owner of the copy," or the end-user (us).

Copyright protection extends to the exclusive right to distribute a work.  But once a copy of a copyrighted work is lawfully sold or distributed, the copyright holder's interest in the copy is exhausted.

To use an example, Mercedes Lackey has a copyright over her books, which allows her in conjunction with a publisher to copy and distribute her books.  But this right of copy and distribution doesn't give her the right to come to your home and burn your Valdemar books post-sale.  This is what is called the "exhaustion rule," or the "right of first sale": her interest in the media object (the book) ends with the sale.  The person who legally acquires a media object has the right to use or dispose of the media object as the person (not the copyright holder) sees fit.

There are restrictions, of course.  The right of first sale does not give us the right to copy our files and sell them.

But as a Federal software case Vault v. Quaid (1988) states, "Section 117(1) contains no language to suggest that the copy it permits must be employed for a use intended by the copyright owner, and, absent clear congressional guidance to the contrary, we refuse to read such limiting language into this exception."

What this seems to suggest is that a copyright holder can distribute copies of its software, but it cannot dictate how the user must use the copy.

alot have changed in the realm of software, electronic copyright stuff since 1988. For example, as many still believe and even I didnt even think about it until now when you mentioned that case is that about financial gain. Well it WAS a loophole but got closed in 1997 if I'm not mistaken by the NET Act or something.

And many cases lately post 1997 have not been friendly to people that share copyrighted materials, like MP3.com vs UMG where distribution of copyrighted material without copyright holder permission is infringement even if the buyer owns a copy of said media..Think that was in 2000 iirc. Then there is the big one...

The case of the EULA. End User License Agreements on a physical box can be binding on consumers who signal their acceptance of the license agreement by opening the box. But luckily I dont think the EULA have been put on the box but if merey opening a box is acceptance I would think it's greatly possible that actually clicking accept is also binding. From Arizona Cartridge Remanufacturers Association Inc. v. Lexmark International Inc. 2005 9th circuit.

Bu there is light though, Rights holders must consider fair use before issuing a takedown notice. If the notice is issued in bad faith, the rights holder could be held liable for misrepresentation. 2008. Lenz v. Universal Music Corp.


Of course those cases are the bigger ones. There probably are thousands if not millions of other cases that are all over the place and back and forth and different results in different areas and times.


But one thing I think we all can take from this is private server or anything of the likes, just be careful. Dont do something stupid that cause another shutdown again. There is enough fear about private servers out there and dont need anymore with word of another one getting shut down or a dude that ran one got sued for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Good luck, and godspeed to who ever is putting in the work in.


You know how many black market items that may be illegal legal gray that varies from the mundane fruits and vegtables to government secrets happen everyday? Millions. How do they do it? By not drawing attention to themselves. The ones that get caught are the ones that get lazy sloppy boastful and or not having a clue of what they are doing or getting into. Remember I see it everyday. I live on the border of our famous southern neighbors in a city that is valued to be a multi-billion, not millions, BILLIONS a year, trade route for illegal drugs to come into this country. And that is not including the worth of guns, cars, and various other illegal items that come across. Quiet.  Thus far it seems pretty mum about it and that is good thing but if one is here and just happen to come across here, good job. If anyone ask me about it, "I seen nothing."

[Sajaana]

Good points, JaguarX.

But I doubt the EULA is even applicable anymore now that the service it was connected to no longer exists.  What is undoubtedly applicable is copyright.

[JaguarX]

Good points, JaguarX.

But I doubt the EULA is even applicable anymore now that the service it was connected to no longer exists.  What is undoubtedly applicable is copyright.

Yup.


But game makers are getting brighter each day to make it hard. They are adding itrusive features each time some that already require internet connection in order to force regitration of the game and encryption code wit hreal life info and credit card that match the internet procider information even if the card will not be charged. And some are not even doing the box anymore meaning users cant even use the defense of "I purchased this game and I have a a right to use my pruchase." and more like you pay a sub each month that is for the monthly time that the game is up and the download is free. And even with F2P, nullify the "They hsould keep the game running because I put great investment into it!" which either way you pay a month you play. tit for tat. But F2P, players dont have much leg to stand on besides the stuff they but in the EULA is says the game can be shut down any time any moment so like all the gambling in COX gameplay, it is a gamble to buy stuff especially in small game. Then meaning if there is no purchase to be made outside the monthly rent, and the agreement that the game may be gone any day any moment in the EULA, then the defense that a private server should exist for most newer games that may be gone in future because the player purchased a box set and should have the right to use their purchase is being quickly nullified by download only and F2P. Man, I wonder if that is just coincidence or did they plan that all the while making it look like it was a Convienence for the player only.


But speaking of which do H&V, TPP, or Valiance have a EULA drafted up yet?

[Codewalker]

With the old COHUpdater, it was the updater that displayed the EULA / TOS and not the client itself, so if you didn't use the updater to run the game you could play without ever clicking "I agree".

Then they forced the use of the NCSoft Launcher instead, and moved the EULA to the client proper - right after you logged on.

On that day, I modded my client so that instead of the NCSoft EULA, it prompted me with this:


I gladly accepted that agreement, and will continue to honor it.

[dwturducken]

^^^ This is a double serving of fried gold!

[JanessaVR]

Codewalker, that is officially too awesome for words.   

[emperorsteele]

.... ;_;

I actually tried hitting "I accept" in that screenshot. I miss me some CoH =(

[Illusionss]

They didn't steal anything though. They simply took the game that they owned and chose to no longer operate it. This decision was entirely in their rights to make.

1. I paid for their game.

2. They took it away from me, for no reason whatever except whim.

3. They took my game. Enter: The Repo Man.

...or so I hope. Let this be a lesson to all who decide on a whim to take away s*** people invested themselves in FOR YEARS. 

Before anyone starts in with a bunch of legalistic crap, allow me to state that "legal" and "the morally right thing to do" are trajectories that only occasionally intersect. I do not see them intersecting on this issue. Maybe some do, that's their business but I DONT.

[Mazz vs The World]

Honestly this was the first MMO many ever played, myself included. I actually bought the physical game, not a digital copy. I honestly thought the game would always be playable, silly me!! I think if I had known up front that the game could/would close permanently, I wouldn't have invested the time I did in it. I do feel like something was stolen from me in some way. If we were just renting the game, then why did we have to buy it in the first place?? It should have just been available online where we paid a monthly sub?? Instead you had to buy the game then the expansions so I thought, this was me OWNING the game?? I know that I did not own the IP or anything like that but I honestly thought I owned the game. How is it that PC gaming is totally different from console games?? Like, if I buy a console game I own it and can play it whenever, even if it's meant for online play. I mean yes they could shut down the server for the online play but I can still play the game and it can't be taken away and I can't be sued for playing it or even having friends over to play it. So this just goes over my head, yes I know I don't own the IP but didn't I at one point own the game?? I did buy it!!

[Ironwolf]

I have purchased since the first day the game went live:

1. box copy of City of Heroes
2. box copy of City of Villains
3. binders of City of Villains and City of heroes help and reference
4. Going Rogue
5. All powersets except Street Fighting (just didn't like it)
6. spent nearly $1000 in goods in the market
7. Kept my account live since the first day and paid my $14.99 a month for 8 years.

I believe this gives me a little leeway in what I can do with this game. I didn't buy a $39.99 box set of a game on a one off. I spent literally THOUSANDS of dollars over the years for this game. I refuse to go quietly into the night.

[JennSpace]

I have purchased since the first day the game went live:

1. box copy of City of Heroes
2. box copy of City of Villains
3. binders of City of Villains and City of heroes help and reference
4. Going Rogue
5. All powersets except Street Fighting (just didn't like it)
6. spent nearly $1000 in goods in the market
7. Kept my account live since the first day and paid my $14.99 a month for 8 years.

I believe this gives me a little leeway in what I can do with this game. I didn't buy a $39.99 box set of a game on a one off. I spent literally THOUSANDS of dollars over the years for this game. I refuse to go quietly into the night.

Absolutely Ironwolf and while my resume ain't as heroic as yours ^^; , I DID buy

1. box copy of City of Heroes
2. box copy of City of Vilains (I'm still searching for my precious Ghost Widow figure I lost, 5 years ago XP XDD)
3. box copy of City of Heroes/Vilains + Going Rogue
4. I spent over $500 in CoH/CoV by keeping my account live for a long, LONG time and buying a LOT of costume sets (which is WAYYY more than ANY other game I ever played).

So yeah, I do believe this gives us the right to fight till' the bitter end! Not everyone has to agree with us but personally, I don't really care : P XD and CoH has grown during the years, to become a part of me ...I will NEVER surrender  

 

[JaguarX]

Absolutely Ironwolf and while my resume ain't as heroic as yours ^^; , I DID buy

1. box copy of City of Heroes
2. box copy of City of Vilains (I'm still searching for my precious Ghost Widow figure I lost, 5 years ago XP XDD)
3. box copy of City of Heroes/Vilains + Going Rogue
4. I spent over $500 in CoH/CoV by keeping my account live for a long, LONG time and buying a LOT of costume sets (which is WAYYY more than ANY other game I ever played).

So yeah, I do believe this gives us the right to fight till' the bitter end! Not everyone has to agree with us but personally, I don't really care : P XD and CoH has grown during the years, to become a part of me ...I will NEVER surrender

never in the history of man have everyone agreed with everything. :p



There are many sides and many definitions of investment. Many of them are intangled. Many people invested with their heart, their mind, their creatitivity and time. Intangible stuff.

Other with money.

Some emotionally.

Many a combination of all above.




Others, it was no more of an investment than blowing $1,000 at the casino. The main friend I introduced to this game in i6 bought over $187,000 in NCSoft in 2009. Her husband thought she went bat shit crazy t oinvest that much into a game company instead of their usual more "professional" and "serious" investements. Although I must say, the look on his face was priceless but I did feel sorry for the bottle of vodka he attacked. She stayed until the lights went dim but then walked away like nothing happened. SO I asked her, "did you feel that all that subscription money was a waste?" She replied "No. I payed for a month and got one month of enjoyment and repeated process. It was money well spent that I dont think I would have found a better use for it."

To her it was no investment anymore than blowing $1500 at a casino. Pure entertainment. Same for alot of my friends that I introduced to the game. Except one, he was a bit more irked at the closing and losing the investment.


Me, I dont know. I think I knew too much with how MMOs worked to feel much about it personally as far as loss of money. I knew in my mind, my mind, that every dime I spend is not one that I can expect monetary gains from or anything beyond that month that I paid fore and anythign else I buy is like gambling that one day, as soon as tomorrow will be gone. Thus it was money that would have been gone anyways even if it was leakage (aka money that is misplaced and not bothering to investigate where it went or care).

But there is one main thing in common, they all and I miss COX and would like to see it back in one shape form or fashion. And I hope one day that the one that I introduced COX to first and known the longest thick and thin will see beyond the Titan stuff and just come home to the COX community. But alas that is a choice that she and the others out there like that have to make on their own. And what ever game happens to somewhat fill COX shoes, I hope people can gain that old confidence back, of course with new wisdom that have been gained whether it's be careful of investments or cherish stuff BEFORE it's gone by listening to the pulse and not dismissing the possible warning signs as DOOOOOOOOM! sayers without so much of an investigation even if on the surface everything looks hokey dorey, and play like thye used to play with clear minds. 

[Illusionss]

I have purchased since the first day the game went live:

1. box copy of City of Heroes
2. box copy of City of Villains
3. binders of City of Villains and City of heroes help and reference
4. Going Rogue
5. All powersets except Street Fighting (just didn't like it)
6. spent nearly $1000 in goods in the market
7. Kept my account live since the first day and paid my $14.99 a month for 8 years.

I believe this gives me a little leeway in what I can do with this game. I didn't buy a $39.99 box set of a game on a one off. I spent literally THOUSANDS of dollars over the years for this game. I refuse to go quietly into the night.

I only have three boxed sets, a digital copy of GR and various other stuff, including a really cool art book I got somehow.... I don't even remember how. Half is heroic, half villainous and the two halves are upside down to each other. I think its all the costume packs and power sets that irk me the worst.... especially Nature, released five minutes before the shutdown announcement. And all the purple enhancement sets.... bought a bunch of those. ~big sigh~ I was a subscribing player until the end.

[Ironwolf]

What I am saying is with your monthly stipend that they take they let you invest time and money to keep a game alive.

They then shut said game down out of the blue and this is even when they say - Play for free forever. I paid - I was happy to pay and if they kept the game going I would still be paying.

The fault is theirs and not mine. They made very little effort and yet said they exhausted all. No they didn't they lied. I will NEVER pay to play an MMO again unless it has a built in closure plan, period. So all new games out there realize - you lost a paying customer - forever due to NCSoft.

[JennSpace]

To me, it was all the TIME I invested in CoH that hurt me the most  That I paid ANY amount of money during my 9 years superheroine career doesn't bother me too much, it was VERY well spent and... I can't say the same about all the decisions I made in my life  But ANYWAYS XD, it's rather that ...you spend 9 years of your life on something and then, because of very stupid reasons, you lose almost EVERYTHING!! D8 If NcSoft would have given me 5 billions dollars as reason for closing City of Heroes, I would have said ''fine, do what you wish...'' and that would have been a good enough reason because In the End*, with all that money I would have bought them XD and reformed Paragon Studios XDD but they had NO excuses. The game was making money and Paragon Studios wanted to buy back CoH so their lousy excuse that no one wanted it or could have supported the game in a way fans would have found satisfying takes the door! It wasn't working in Korea and blablabla, that they were heartless enough to do that for such childish reasons made me lose all my respect for them.

At least Batman was able to wear the cape once more when Bane threatened to make Gotham City explode in The Dark Knight Rises. He swore he would NOT wear the mask again but in face of such danger and destruction, he re-became the Dark Knight. Imagine if his leg would just have been completly destroyed and he would have been obliged to witness the end of his city, live to see the day where it wouldn't exist no more and continue living after that as if nothing happened and just forget it. Unfortunately, there was no happy ending for any of us and that's what we get...  But I will never forgive NcSoft for what they did and I will never forget my city. 

[Energy Aura]

Going back to the OP.  I think going as broad as possible in releasing the server code for individuals to create servers is the way to go.  I personally would run 2-3 servers myself.

Here are some odd thoughts on deflecting a legal recourse. 

1.  Instead of connecting to the server as we did in CoH, how about the method used in Diablo 2 for connecting.  To me this would essentially make anyone "not invited" to my server a "trespasser", and thus their actions to "see if we're doing something illegal" are illegal to begin with.  Like police busting into a home to see if something illegal is going on.

2.  I don't know if this would help defer a legal attack, but couldn't we EULA them back with a standard EULA that mirrors theirs but doesn't refer to them.  (If that makes any sense).  This way nothing is done to/with there intellectual property other than what was originally intended.

3.  Make the first rule of CoX: Restored (that's my pet name)
You don't talk about CoX: Restored

[daveyfiacre]

Going back to the OP.  I think going as broad as possible in releasing the server code for individuals to create servers is the way to go.  I personally would run 2-3 servers myself.

Here are some odd thoughts on deflecting a legal recourse. 

1.  Instead of connecting to the server as we did in CoH, how about the method used in Diablo 2 for connecting.  To me this would essentially make anyone "not invited" to my server a "trespasser", and thus their actions to "see if we're doing something illegal" are illegal to begin with.  Like police busting into a home to see if something illegal is going on.

2.  I don't know if this would help defer a legal attack, but couldn't we EULA them back with a standard EULA that mirrors theirs but doesn't refer to them.  (If that makes any sense).  This way nothing is done to/with there intellectual property other than what was originally intended.

3.  Make the first rule of CoX: Restored (that's my pet name)
You don't talk about CoX: Restored

i'll shut up, just take my money!

[Illusionss]

Going back to the OP.  I think going as broad as possible in releasing the server code for individuals to create servers is the way to go.  I personally would run 2-3 servers myself.

Here are some odd thoughts on deflecting a legal recourse. 

1.  Instead of connecting to the server as we did in CoH, how about the method used in Diablo 2 for connecting.  To me this would essentially make anyone "not invited" to my server a "trespasser", and thus their actions to "see if we're doing something illegal" are illegal to begin with.  Like police busting into a home to see if something illegal is going on.

2.  I don't know if this would help defer a legal attack, but couldn't we EULA them back with a standard EULA that mirrors theirs but doesn't refer to them.  (If that makes any sense).  This way nothing is done to/with there intellectual property other than what was originally intended.

3.  Make the first rule of CoX: Restored (that's my pet name)
You don't talk about CoX: Restored

These all sound like great ideas.