Author Topic: The Community Server Shouldn't Be Central; Shouldn't be Massive Multiplayer  (Read 18342 times)

Captain Electric

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Here's the tl;dr right at the start: The more I've learned about NCSoft's history of easily shutting down games and fighting hard to keep them dead, the more I've realized that a central, dedicated host server list would become a death knell for the revived game. The solution is the Freelancer model that was talked about by Chris Roberts at the PAX East panel in regards to City of Heroes and the subject of keeping games alive after publisher disinterest. Interestingly, I still play Freelancer online every so often and this is exactly the model that has allowed me to do it. (I'm a big fan of the Battlestar Galactica conversions. ;D)

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It won't matter to their lawyers if we players change every signature character and line of text in the game; I say "we" because the code monkeys aren't planning on doing that part for us--they're giving us a tabula rasa to help fend off the lawyers who will be sniffing out trademark violations. Of course I don't think this will entirely work. It doesn't matter if the server is written from scratch; because the lawyers aren't likely to be tech savvy enough to think beyond the mere fact that players are playing City of Heroes again in any form--and NCSoft will be paying them to make that situation stop. Now the core EULA-dodging aspect of this paragraph deserves its own thread (it already has a few, actually), so what I'm asking people to focus on instead is the simple consequence of having NCSoft's lawyers come after us: any centrally located server will be the first target.

Ideally, the server software should be optimized to run on normal to high-end gaming PCs alongside the client (or at worst a separate dedicated server box that can be built for under $500), so that friends all over the world can organize over instant messaging programs or VOIP or Steam or private guild forums, and play the game without fear of being noticed by NCSoft's eye in the sky. And the project's source code should be made freely available upon release of the community server, to aid in wide dispersal around the Internet, as a pre-preemptive measure against the inevitable cease and desist notice before it arrives. (It will be far more trouble for you guys if you release the code after receiving a cease and desist.)

This is the most likely avenue to getting a healthy AND SAFE game out in the wild, with some diverse and competing code branches pumping out updates.

Maybe sometime in the future, 10 years or so, when NCSoft's reigns have changed hands, or their stance has softened, or they've abandoned MMOs to be the king of mobile app sweatshops or whatever, someone can raise up a central massive server and fling open its doors. If you do this any time soon, you're just painting a target on your chest, and the surrounding fallout is likely to put people off of returning to the game in any form.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 12:47:52 AM by Captain Electric »

JanessaVR

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I agree - I've already been thinking these points for some time now.  It doesn't matter how careful our (brave, loyal, dedicated, and very much appreciated!) reverse-engineers and community-server coders are, NCSoft will doubtless sue anyway.  As has been noted here more than once, they are the Honey Badger of the gaming world, and they just don't care.

JaguarX

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hmmm.

You're right about this.

A big central location is easy target and if they wait unti C&D to disperse code then they wont go after much the ones tha tget it but the ones that dispersed it. And usually it's an open and closed case if ya wait after to recieve a C&D to do that and they will have their way wit hya in court as then the defense of "i didnt know" aint going to work and dispersing the code after wards look like malicious intent. And remember most normal players have no idea what the laws and a letter or notice fro mthe lawyers of "We are taking this *insert central hub of private server* to court and suing the shit ouf them and anyone that continue to partake here is also liable to end up in court wit ha lawsuit." Most people will be hell, it aint worth it even if they cant realisticaly find everyone everywhere. Think about how many of those peer sharing sites went under. There were a few people that got sued individually for using a particular site and the company won in many cases and drove the poor sap that just wanted to listen to their favorite song into financial trouble probably for the rest of their natural life. And that one is one out of the thousands that never got caught and even downloaded way more songs. But the effects were the same. "Hey dont use that site, they may sue ya." Even though the overall chance was very very lottery small.

But say if things were spread from the get go and underground and quiet with no central, then they probably wont bother trying to  gather straws in the wind unless they are somehow able to pin down the originator.

That soundsl ike good idea Cap.

Ironwolf

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I have said this repeatedly and i know some of those working on the reverse engineering feel the same way - Get it working - then post it in the wild and let hundreds of servers appear.

If NCSoft was to sue it would actually be fairly easy to defend - they allow private servers to exist in almost all of their other games and since this one does not generate revenue and does not affect their content since no Official game exists. In fact it could be shown it would benefit them as it keeps interest up for a sequel.

Captain Electric

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I have said this repeatedly and i know some of those working on the reverse engineering feel the same way - Get it working - then post it in the wild and let hundreds of servers appear.

If NCSoft was to sue it would actually be fairly easy to defend - they allow private servers to exist in almost all of their other games and since this one does not generate revenue and does not affect their content since no Official game exists. In fact it could be shown it would benefit them as it keeps interest up for a sequel.

This contradicts so much established (and accepted, I had assumed until now--though this proves how perception of fact can be turned on its ear in an instant) data to the contrary, it reads almost as if from some alternate timeline--one for which I would love to have the coordinates and a portal, I might add.

Ironwolf, I'm sure there are folks around here who will shortly be along to dig beneath old scabs. But the arguments you raise were so well-covered so long ago that I must admit, this isn't the discussion I expected to have and I'm not interested in spending an unproductive morning digging up old threads. You have my respect, don't get me wrong, though not my agreement in the least.

Ironwolf

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Not going to argue just offer this - do a search on any of the top NCSoft titles.

Search - private servers Aion or whatever

You will find literally hundreds of private servers and they are openly advertised.

Illusionss

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If they are not suing to shut down private servers of games they have running now, I am not sure why a private server of a defunct game would matter.

dwturducken

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Well, we have gone out of our way to be a thorn in their sides since they shut down our game...

Honestly, as much as I want our game back in any form, I'm really excited by what's coming out of the three successor projects. I know Valiance isn't one of the "official" Plan Z projects, but the stuff that is coming from them is just as exciting. I'm not sure how far along the Sooper Sekrit SirvirTM is, but there is a very real possibility of something playable from them before we know it.*

*Only in the sense that it has been six months "before we knew it."
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Illusionss

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Well, we have gone out of our way to be a thorn in their sides since they shut down our game...

I am not sure they have even noticed any of our efforts, to be honest. Sad but true.

dwturducken

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I am not sure they have even noticed any of our efforts, to be honest. Sad but true.

They noticed at first. We have that from a couple of sources, one being them saying, "Stop sending things to our individual email addresses!" :)

That wasn't my point, though. Whether they have actually shown a willingness to act out of caprice is a matter of some debate, but they are not unaware of us. If someone with sway over the legal department decided they wanted to create difficulties for us, this would take about as much effort as directing an assistant to draft a memo to legal. Not saying that I think they would, but I would not put it past them.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Ironwolf

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Aion - top 100 private server list: http://topofgames.com/Aion/
Guild wars - how to build your own private server http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atLjONunFt0
Lineage II - Top 200 private servers - http://www.gamesites200.com/lineage2/
Guild Wars 2 - http://gtoplist.com/GW2/


Personally folks - I truly think NCSoft is sitting in South Korea asking why the fuss just start your own private server.

Captain Electric

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The funny thing is, it was the community who corrected me when I took a similar point of view during the closure, people citing Dungeon Runners, Auto Assault and Tabula Rasa. All of those private servers were in their infancy when they were shut down. The thought of diving back into this discussion is exasperating because there were so many of them; and the "fact" that NCSoft goes after emulators with bloodhounds was beaten into my thick skull not with opinions, but actual links to shut-down projects, cease and desist stories and notices. At this point, beating my original premise back into my skull isn't going to prove anything but schizophrenia for NCSoft, and perhaps a short memory for everyone else. 

Aion - top 100 private server list: http://topofgames.com/Aion/
Guild wars - how to build your own private server http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atLjONunFt0
Lineage II - Top 200 private servers - http://www.gamesites200.com/lineage2/
Guild Wars 2 - http://gtoplist.com/GW2/

Personally folks - I truly think NCSoft is sitting in South Korea asking why the fuss just start your own private server.

And now we have the other side of the coin.

If by some reasoning the Community Server team does intend to throw all of our eggs into one basket and pray, then good luck, it's your project and your choice. I don't think I would have the heart to put my characters on such an endangered target. It's a big foolish risk, all for "the heck of it", because it's not the only way, it's not the safest way.

I'm kind of in a hurry to post, but even if I wasn't, I'm not sure I could add any more to this discussion without repeating so many other people over the past several months.

zendarin

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NCSOFT goes after some emulators but not others. Perhaps it's not NCSOFT going after the emulators but NCSOFT acting at the request of the studio who made the title.

Ironwolf

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To be absolutely honest, I out of respect for the Devs believe the community would have reacted to a private server with merciless attacks. This is my personal thoughts on it. I think we would have beaten it into small stains and rinsed the stains away with the tears of those how had dared to try it.

Now however, I think with dawning recognition that the game is dead and buried as far as NCSoft cares, it is no disrespect to our Devs and in fact it cheapens all their hard work to have it expunged from the face of the earth. I don't give evil as the motive when sheer incompetance will fit the bill. I do think it was a business decision and of no hard feelings to the game.

Noyjitat

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I can honestly say if we didnt do the community server thing the interest to play just wouldnt be there. I would want to team up like I did before and run tfs, trials and msrs. Not have god mode and all powers. Thats not very fun for too long.

JaguarX

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out of curisosity if things went ideally and the game was eventually ported to single player thing. I assume there is enough knowledge of the code to make it so that the game in the entirely TF and Trials and incarnate trials scaled to suit a single player and or very small group play?

Brightfires

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Yeah, I'd miss some of the "group activities" if I had a private version of the game running on a server of my own...
But you know, I spent the VAST majority of my play-time in City either soloing or running duo with FCM. Given that, I think I'd be alright with it, even lacking the iTrials and MSRs and all that. As much as I enjoyed them, they honestly weren't the thing that drew me to the game.
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JaguarX

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Yeah, I'd miss some of the "group activities" if I had a private version of the game running on a server of my own...
But you know, I spent the VAST majority of my play-time in City either soloing or running duo with FCM. Given that, I think I'd be alright with it, even lacking the iTrials and MSRs and all that. As much as I enjoyed them, they honestly weren't the thing that drew me to the game.

Yeah I soloed too. And covered much of the arcs and fluff missions. And got bored. Taking 45min-1 hour to form team was the pits, and ten by the time ya get the team and get rolling two or more people have to leave due to their play time available being burnt away waiting for more players to join, not to mention the couple that ends up on the tema that want to speed run everything because they joined a Dr Q with only 30 minutes to play and Dr Q and other shadow shard TFs being cool but not popular and thus, I think even playing since i5 I never got a chance to all of them once and the ones I did only manage to do them once. Those are the times I wished I didnt need a team so I didnt miss out on content because it was the speedrun farm FoTM aka missing out due to or lack of other people.

Iwish one day I can actually run those TFs and not having to stick to farming and speed running the same two or three tirals over and over again because that is what most people are into at that moment or back to the regular content where all the missions seem to be same just reskinned, again, for the hundredth time. 

Kistulot

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I actually only rejoined about a week or two before the drop of i22, and I was able to get through every TF, trial, and iTrial. Got some of the SFs done redside, but I never really had a redside toon I fell in love with. People were there to do the weirder content if you reached out to people and stepped outside of your comfort zone. My Doctor Q ended with 5 people still there, but we persevered. I can confess I never got the bomb badge from the UG, no matter how many times I tried, but I think that's just the breaks.

Having it so people could make their own servers, while still trying to make one more centralized to me feels like the best idea. Clearly if they want to they can go after any servers anywhere, legitimate of them to do so or not, so it feels best to make it so people can never lose access to creating them... but at the same time, we are a community. The game is a multiplayer game, even if it solos sweetly.

It would be a shame if we lost that preemptively.
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I -hated- soloing ... I loved jumping on teams, and running teams. I landed on awesome teams more often than not. I couldn't see lasting in a single player version of City ... that's not what I played it for. I loved how easy it was to get onto any variety of random teams.