Author Topic: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?  (Read 14301 times)

LydiaFrost

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2013, 05:15:35 PM »
I think a Game needs Updates in Content, Powers and Storys.
I would be OK with a slower development cycle, but Maintainance would mean dead for me.
For me the Story arcs and the changes in the world are very intresting, new Powers to work for like Incarnate powers give me something to do with my time.

I dont read the same comic over and over.

AE would have been a possible solution, but highest ranking mission had hundreds of goons swarming me and killing me instant. That was it for me with AE.

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Cinnder

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2013, 05:38:36 PM »
I'd like to add a resounding YES to the preference of maintenance mode over closure.  There were so many missions in CoH even without AE that I never levelled up a character via the same path twice in a row.  (Well, except for the first few levels when they removed all the choice of regular missions for the early game, but that's a separate gripe...)

One of the things I enjoyed best about CoX was the vast array of power sets.  I think only after I had a 50 in every power set would I start to get bored.

Lucretia MacEvil

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2013, 10:20:08 PM »
I think only after I had a 50 in every power set would I start to get bored.

But what about all those great synergistic combos of powersets?   :D

Honestly, there was so much content that I never got around to that even Maintenance Mode would keep me busy for a long, long time.  Ideally, I24 would get finished and published (crashless nukes, pleeeeeeeease!!!!), but even if that didn't happen, I'd still hang around forever.

Absolute

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2013, 10:25:24 PM »
If it meant maintenance mode vs. no mode at all, maintenance.  I was one of the AE authors who actually cared deeply for AE's potential, creating some wonderfully fun stuff, including one at 8 p.m. Eastern the night the servers went down.  I'd be more than up to the challenge of writing more AE stuff if it meant having to rely on that for future story development in-game.

This ^

I wrote a long response last night but apparently got distracted and closed the tab.

I think AE would pretty much take over everything if content completely stopped. It was a great tool, it just wasn't needed as much when nobody ever ran out of content in the first place. I don't know what other game could survive longer in maintenance mode then CoH with AE.

Tahliah

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2013, 12:47:26 AM »
I'd be so on board with COH in maintenance mode.  I never got around to so much new content that I could have played quite happily with COH as it was for years and still had more left to do.  I didn't get all the badges I could have, for instance, on my badge.  I didn't do all of the end content (New DA or that much of it, at all, actually, and only bits of First Ward).  I didn't do all the incarnate trials, and who knows I may never have done them.  But I also never got a chance to get some of my "new" favorite toons to 50 (water blaster, nature affinity toons--had a troll, dom, and mastermind, and others).  Well, I say I didn't have the chance or get around to it, but I guess I thought I had all the time in the world, that I could lazily level these toons, explore "new" content (some that had been around for a couple a years, I never got around to doing), etc.

If i24 was a part of it even better; I was SO excited about getting some blaster love.  But even if it was at i23, I'd still be all over it.  I never really understood why the community seemed so angry all the time about this little thing or that (I know they weren't little things to the posters, but it seemed extreme to threaten to /ragequit because you couldn't do "X" to your sg base or whatever); I know that it's the player base passion for the game, but looking back now . . . yeah, I'd be thrilled beyond imagining if I could play COH in maintenance mode, no new updates, costumes, powersets, anything . . . forever.

eviella

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2013, 04:38:52 AM »
I know there is a TON of stuff I could keep myself entertained with on CoH in maintenance mode.  Tons of alts to play with, AE, and there was some stuff I had never actually done.


Little David

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2013, 12:11:49 PM »
Maintenance mode compared to shutdown? Yes. Very yes. Heck, keep the cash shop open so the game continues to draw in some income to pay for its own upkeep.

Some MMOs can stay busy for years on their own inertia. I'm a long-time player of the legitimate international Ragnarok Online servers, and I've noticed that the guild-based PVP and territory control event, War of Emperium, has been a big factor in why the game's population has remained stable. When Gravity KR introduced a content update called Renewal that shook the game up at its basic levels (core game mechanics, content, etc.), it messed with the flow of WoE on iRO so much that a lot of people stopped playing on the "premium" servers. In response, Gravity LLC released a "Classic" server that brought back the state of the game as it was pre-Renewal, and it's seen a steady population since.

If City of Heroes ever had supergroup base raids working, combined with an upgrade to Mission Architect so that it would give players the same level of control over mission making that the devs had (and maybe turn over the Developer's Choice Awards system to the community so that new story arcs could be promoted), I think those would have been more than enough to keep CoH on autopilot.

Just a thought... is it possible that CoX could not have existed in maintenance mode, because of the lawsuit requiring them to actively hunt for copyright offenders?

Didn't Marvel settle the lawsuit after it was revealed that their employees were playing CoH with Marvel knockoffs?

Segev

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2013, 12:43:46 PM »
Honestly, the cynical side of me that understands PR to the limited extent that I do would marvel at NCSoft's canniness...if they'd announced a cancellation (but kept on a maintenance staff) and then, after the firestorm of fan protests, magnanimously announced that they would instead continue it in maintenance mode, perhaps with a single last-ditch fund-raiser to support a temporary dev and debugging staff to implement i24 if it reached a certain threshold.

Why would I marvel? Because I would doubt they'd ever intended to really shut it down unless it clearly had no fan support at all, but that they'd always intended a maintenance mode and now are getting a last burst of profit out of the waning fan support.

Why would I think they'd initiate such deception? Because announcing a game going into maintenance mode will make fans gripe about it being ignored, dying, etc., and generally overall be met with what is easily perceived as grudging ingratitude. No, I'm not denigrating fans, here; it's human nature. They are losing something and being given a consolation prize that isn't quite what they'd hoped for.

But announce the complete closure, and then turn around and respond to the fan uprising with the same consolation prize (plus a bonus if a fund-raiser reaches a certain target goal)? How many of us - be honest - would be singing NCSoft's praises for listening to the fans, and would be truly relieved and grateful if Nov. 30th had been the day they announced a continued maintenance mode to go on as long as the game earned enough to keep itself from actively costing them money? How many of us would be scrambling to shove money at NCSoft to reach whatever goal they'd set in a simple donation fund-raiser to hire a debugging team and implement i24 within two Quarters of the goal being reached?

Suddenly, fan irritation becomes fan gratitude, because what NCSoft was going to do all along was presented as "listening to the fans" and as if it was returning something to them, rather than taking something away.

Illusionss

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2013, 03:57:31 PM »
In a truly perfect world, Issue 24 and all the content in development at the time would've been released, and the final patch before going into maintenence mode would've been an upgrade to the mission architect to let us do some or all of those cool things people wanted for years. Sadly, we live in a very imperfect world.

Yup.

Champions Online has been in maintenance mode for years. Its a matter of when, not if, the plug is going to be pulled on that game. Perhaps Perfect World will be kinder Gaming Overlords and allow it to limp on with no oversight or new input, but I doubt it. Gaming companies seem to be all about the "we'll do what we want to, to you and you will love it because we say you will" mission statement.

TonyV

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2013, 04:17:25 PM »
How is that different from movies or TV series?  Has to have big numbers on the opening weekend or it's a failure.  Must have huge ratings within the first two weeks or it's canceled.

Once the box sales drop off it's all about the monthly income stream, whether it's subscription, cash shop or both.  How many people pay for that next month and the month after?  How many buy something off the store?

First, to answer your question, the traditional television model is quite a bit different in that networks only have so many hours of programming they can support.  If they want to launch a new show that they feel will be very popular, they must make room for it somewhere on the schedule.  This isn't like games.  Sure, you can glut the market, but practically speaking, no matter how many games are out there, you don't have to kill one off to make room for a new one, especially in this age of digital distribution.  (Incidentally, this is why I get excited over developments such as Felicia Day's Geek & Sundry network; they are not bound by such time limitations and there's a good chance that this is ultimately the future of entertainment as companies like Netflix and Amazon jump on the bandwagon.)

Plus, who says that networks killing off shows with steady followings is a good thing?  How many times have you been invested in a show for a year or two just to have it canceled because, although it was doing okay in the ratings, apparently some network executive didn't feel it was doing well enough?  I know that drives me bonkers, to the point where I hardly ever watch any television any more, and when I do, it's usually some show that already has a year or two under its belt so that I won't get sucked into something that's unproven and may be canceled at any given time.

Last, I have to say that I really do miss the good ol' days of gaming when the industry was run by developers, not publishers.  I mean, we've had publishers around for decades, but they generally had a hands-off approach, serving primarily as support for the developers in things like marketing and distribution, not directly in actually running the games.  Nowadays, with gaming being a multibillion dollar business, it's all about the bottom line.  Decisions are rarely made based on the artistic merit of games or the loyalty of their communities, and when they are, it's almost always out of an independent studio.  It's just churn out a blockbuster, monetize it quickly into the ground, then churn out another.

MMORPGs in particular really require a commitment on the part of the publisher and developer.  Without that commitment, not only does an individual game suffer, but the genre as a whole suffers because unlike a television show or movie where you've probably blown a bunch of time and maybe $20 on a ticket and some popcorn, people tend to invest years and hundreds, maybe thousands, of dollars into MMORPGs.  When a publisher like NCsoft yanks one out from under its community, it poisons the well for other MMORPGs.  How many of you who had been loyal 8+ year subscribers to City of Heroes were ready, upon its shutdown, to go out and invest that kind of time and money into another game?

Is automating a game preferable to shutting it down?  Of course.  But in an ideal world, when you have a community and development studio like Paragon Studios that remains passionate about their work, neither should be an option.  There was no reason in the world why NCsoft shouldn't have spun off Paragon Studios as an independent development studio, sold them the rights to the game, and let it continue running as long as the developers and the community cared about the game.  Eventually it would have wound down naturally.  Even at that point, the developers could have taken steps to sell, for example, a "server lite" version of the game to allow avid supporters of the game to continue playing in single-player or small-party mode with friends.  10 or 20 years from now if I still want to fire up the game and play some of my beloved characters, there should be no reason why I couldn't.

Ironwolf

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2013, 06:34:55 PM »
Shutdown or Maintenance mode?

This site should tell you all you need to know: gog.com - games that are ancient and yet still played and for sale.

FatherXmas

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2013, 06:49:27 PM »
First, to answer your question, the traditional television model is quite a bit different in that networks only have so many hours of programming they can support.  If they want to launch a new show that they feel will be very popular, they must make room for it somewhere on the schedule.  This isn't like games.

First the question was rhetorical but there are parallels that can be drawn.  Like a TV series or movies, games have an up front development cost that need to be recouped first before it's considered profitable.  Games are primarily sold in retail and there is limit shelf space.  If a game doesn't sell well quickly, it's off the shelves as there is a constant stream of new games demanding that space.  The analogy here is retail stores shelf space is like a TV network's limited number of time slots.  While on line distribution though services like Steam can keep a game visible, the die is already cast if it was considered a success or failure by it's publisher in those first few weeks and if there is a online service that goes with the game, don't expect any long term support from the publisher if it's not the "hit" it was expected to be.

Yes, in the old days when games were self-financed rather than financed by a "friendly" publisher who attached strings and hard deadlines.  But trying to take a bank loan for developing a game is like taking a bank loan to make a movie, it's much to risky for most banks.  So we end up with developers who will sell out to publishers to finance their project.  There are only a few (I can only think of one really) large developer who is still their own beast and that's Valve.

I disagree with your assertion that a game doesn't need to be "kill one off to make room for a new one".  There is a limited support budget (I include marketing, manufacturing in with proper support), priorities have to be made.  It took GOG to resurrect some great old titles because they were willing to deal with low price, limited support that the big publishers didn't know how to deal with.

In the end it's all about cash flow.  It's always about cash flow.  Older games simply don't bring in the money needed to support new development.  New games do.  Just like movie studios.  You have a big pile of cash you use to make the next round of movies and that pile hopefully is refilled by the movies now out, plus a bit for profit.  If you can't do that you end up like MGM and we end up with Bond delayed and getting Cabin in the Woods 3 years after it was made.

As an aside I love the programming on Geek and Sundry.  It is what G4 should have been.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 06:56:34 PM by FatherXmas »
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Cinnder

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2013, 07:04:53 PM »
Last, I have to say that I really do miss the good ol' days of gaming when the industry was run by developers, not publishers.  I mean, we've had publishers around for decades, but they generally had a hands-off approach, serving primarily as support for the developers in things like marketing and distribution, not directly in actually running the games.  Nowadays, with gaming being a multibillion dollar business, it's all about the bottom line.  Decisions are rarely made based on the artistic merit of games or the loyalty of their communities, and when they are, it's almost always out of an independent studio.  It's just churn out a blockbuster, monetize it quickly into the ground, then churn out another.

Heh, I hear ya.  For years we compained that no one was taking gaming seriously enough, that they looked at it as just some sort of geek hobby.  Now they take it seriously, and too late we see what the consequences of that attention truly are.   :(

Little David

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2013, 09:54:13 AM »
I don't know, that mentality among publishers has been around for a while. Electronic Arts was doing it as far back as the late 90's.

I still miss Origin. (The developer studio, mind you, not the Steam wannabe.)

The Fifth Horseman

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2013, 10:41:10 AM »
This site should tell you all you need to know: gog.com - games that are ancient and yet still played and for sale.
The irony is that many of those games were out of print for years before GOG got the license to re-release them. I've seen copies of Arcanum sold for as much as $150 on Amazon Marketplace.
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Captain Electric

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2013, 05:18:39 AM »
I have spent quite a bit of money at GOG. Mostly to buy games I already owned but GOG's versions all run better. I have all of the Ultima games and Master of Orion I and II on there, various other games too.  :)

Also if you like point and click adventure games, a GOG account comes free with a few of those, including the classic Beneath a Steel Sky.

Sugoi

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2013, 06:08:41 AM »
I dont read the same comic over and over.

AE would have been a possible solution, but highest ranking mission had hundreds of goons swarming me and killing me instant. That was it for me with AE.

Lydia Frost MM

I don't play the same mission the same way when I run a different AT or one with different Power Selections.... That was one of the brilliant things about CoH... So many ways to play the game.

As far as AE, sounds like you hit one of those Farming Runs that people who can withstand massive amounts of damage would solo with a team soaking up XP in the front room.  Sorry that's all you experienced with it. 

I used it shortly after it came out to make a COH-flavored episode of my favorite Anime show, where a lot of the characters got captured by some toy robots, but when freed, they stuck around to help with the rest.  (The characters involved in the run included Electric , Fire and Energy Blasters, A Bot MM, and an Ice Controller, just like they were in the Anime series.)  There was so much more that could be done with AE besides Farming to 50 in 2 days.

Illusionss

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2013, 06:09:44 AM »
AE would have been a possible solution, but highest ranking mission had hundreds of goons swarming me and killing me instant. That was it for me with AE.

I remember two cool AE missions: just two.

One was called "Zombies like Tequila" and it was hilariously great. You did get mobbed by zombies in the end, but it was still a blast. The second one took place on that same map used at the end of that Faultline arc that culminated in fighting that annoying putz, Captain Castillo - the Frieda of CoH. [Frieda from Peanuts. It was a wonder he wasn't going on about his "naturally curly hair" as he used every dirty trick in the book to fight you.]

This second one was using that map, it was dark and it was full of ghosts. It was pretty cool. But agreed, most AE missions were not just bad, they were horrible. I think most of them were supposed to be farms. Ah, mito farms.... those were the only good thing that ever came out of AE.

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Styrj

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2013, 11:04:02 PM »
I have spent quite a bit of money at GOG. Mostly to buy games I already owned but GOG's versions all run better. I have all of the Ultima games and Master of Orion I and II on there, various other games too.  :)

Also if you like point and click adventure games, a GOG account comes free with a few of those, including the classic Beneath a Steel Sky.

Cap, I too have spent my share of dollars (and still am) at GoG.com, in addition, the games are DRM free, which means you can install them on all your PCs plus no CD swapping.  I just picked up Wizardry 6, 7 & 8, HoMM 3 Complete, and Master of Magic (a classic).
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Empyrean

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2013, 11:45:12 AM »
For City of Heroes, maintenance mode would have been great due to Mission Architect and the fact that it was a fully developed, mature game--but MAN I wanted that last issue with Ancillary Power customization!!!

The reason maintenance mode is so bad on Champions is that Champions is a younger game that never got even close to half as much development as CoH, so it's like the difference between maintaining a nice, big, well made classic amusement park vs maintaining a half-built amusement park.

But, to me, the big issue is that I strongly prefer a well built, mature, fully fleshed out and developed older game over a new shiny thing, but it's obvious that the industry thinks that the money is in the next new shiny.  And you know what?  They're probably right.  That seems to be what most people want.

Unfortunately, taste and intelligence are not common, and, just as in movies and music, the MMORPG industry is learning that it is not necessary to produce good movies/games/music to make money, just to dangle shiny things in front of the masses who will then throw money at them for it and then immediately look around for the next.

You CAN make big money with genuinely good movies/music/games, but you can also just as easily make big money by churning out an endless supply of disposable new shinys, so there is little incentive to companies to put forth the effort to produce good, much less truly great, stuff.

If I sound bitter, it's because I am.  And the worst part is, I'm probably right.  But, rare gems, like City of Heroes, The Avengers, and the White Stripes still come along in spite of the industrial pressure towards insipidness, so I do have a faint hope.  But I also try not to get my hopes up so that I'm pleasantly surprised rather than disappointed.