Author Topic: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?  (Read 14298 times)

Captain Electric

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Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« on: May 26, 2013, 12:49:44 PM »
Justin Olivetti of Massively's "The Daily Grind" column, which "probes the minds of their readers with deep, thought-provoking questions" every morning, wants to know what readers think.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/05/26/the-daily-grind-is-automation-preferrable-to-mmo-closures/

Note: this is NOT Eliot Lefebvre, the columnist behind Massively's "Mild Mannered Reporter". So if you've got a bone to pick with Eliot, you know, don't direct that at Justin Olivetti by mistake.

Also, personally, for my own curiosity, I'm asking ya'll to dig deep for this question. Many of us have played or are playing Champions Online, and are pretty miffed at Cryptic for slowing development down to a crawl. I've heard a lot of people throw the term "maintenance mode" at Champs. Well, it's not in maintenance mode if it's still getting content updates.

Imagine City of Heroes getting less than what Champs gets (i.e. imagine if NCSoft turned the servers on but no more content updates ever again). Would you be forever grateful if CoH was returned but forever in maintenance mode? Do you think people would lose their gratitude after a few months (or weeks?) and start griping about CoH being in maintenance mode?
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 12:55:24 PM by Captain Electric »

FlyingCarcass

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2013, 01:26:19 PM »
CoH had a system that could bring in new content were the game to be put on automation mode, the mission architect. Ultimately, fan made content has the ability to extend the life of a game for many years after development on it has ceased, just look at Morrowind which is still getting modded about a decade since its last official expansion was released.

LaughingAlex

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2013, 02:35:27 PM »
It boils down to how much content a game has and if players can help or not.  CoX had the mission architect, so it being in maintenance mode wouldn't be anywhere near as much of a problem.  But say CO in the same kind of maintenance mode isn't so much, as it's easy to run out of content in that game to easily, in fact the content problem has been the core of alot of grief in CO.  It's also the core as to why people want the foundry so bad for that game.
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General Idiot

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2013, 02:49:24 PM »
Quote
CoH had a system that could bring in new content were the game to be put on automation mode, the mission architect.

In a truly perfect world, Issue 24 and all the content in development at the time would've been released, and the final patch before going into maintenence mode would've been an upgrade to the mission architect to let us do some or all of those cool things people wanted for years. Sadly, we live in a very imperfect world.

Lily Barclay

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2013, 03:34:18 PM »
Honestly? I hadn't played City's new content in years. I was still playing through all the old arcs and my favorite arcs. It wasn't until the shutdown announcement that I started playing through some of the newer stuff. I would have been perfectly fine if it had been automated, so long as they allowed paragon to continue on their other projects. I would have been less fine if they canned everyone, but probably would never have looked into the facts about the studio's profitability and would have just assumed the studio wasn't doing well. I would have kept playing and probably would have still paid a sub. If NCSoft were to bring it back automated now, I would play, but never give them another dime of my money.

LaughingAlex

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2013, 03:46:57 PM »
NCSoft really just wanted to get rid of CoX was my thought on the matter.  But I also suspect CoX had something to do with it, NCSoft would indeed shut guild wars down if they could and get away with it.  But the player base clearly isn't anymore, especially with how everyone in alot of games reacted to the shutdown.  It tells them that NCSoft isn't willing to provide them services or support for their games and at the same time, CoX was rated as the best super hero mmo when it was shut down.  Shutting down any kind of heavy weight is going to cause a morale shock among customers.  If they shut guild wars 1 down I imagine it woulda caused just as big of a backlash to be honest.
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JaguarX

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2013, 03:50:52 PM »
I think there would have been a major uproar and hate at NCSoft for putting a healthy game and thus ridding most of the devs into maintance mode just as much if they were closing it. Hell, there was uproar when seerver merger was even suggested.

But in hindsight I think given the choices, I think many would take maintance mode anyday given te alternative. Just like now many would kill and wouldnt care if all the servers were merged into freedom if that what it took to keep the game running now when then it was considered the dumbest idea ever suggested by many here, mostly about names, which at the time with not much indication of closure of even being an option, was the most important. If it was that much uproar over a mere server merger with no closure being sighted in the future I oculd only image the pissy mood and hate at NCSoft if they fired all the devs and put COX into maintence mode.


I think MA had potential to extend the game life but really, it was just farmville in MA. Farm missions at least to me got boring with updates, and slogging through thousands and thousands of farm missions to find somethign decent to play was a slog. I dont think at first it would seem MA would save the game in maintance mode as people that stayed away from MA probably wouldnt stay for MA as many reasons for them staying away from it was the difficulty of finding non-farm and or story arcs wit hsubstance. But with no updates, then I think farming might of waned out after a while since there was no updates to farm towards not to mention with no updates, I think maybe more people that didnt shun MA would start building more of their own stories and instead of making farm missions the majority, make farm missions the minority, which then will extend the life of the game but the catch is depedning on how long for the content oriented story arcs retaking MA takes. If it takes too long many people would have already left, leaving less players on top the players that leave due maintence mode and being bored, then people who leave then because the less ease to find a team, which means probably most teams will be smaller and that leaves a lot smaller pool of players for end games especially tryign to get 8 man team let alone 16-24 man to do incarnate stuff unless prior to slipping into maintence mode they readjust the content. If not, even with MA, COX in maintence mode would be worse off than CO in maintance mode. CO content very very very few things is team gated. So low population does not impede getting most badges and accodlaes that nice buffs like in COX where a good accolade that give a nice sized buff basically requires a team multiple times over to obtain.

Sure COX was best super hero game but more than likely NCSOft and other major corporations aint looking who is the best in this genre or that genre or who is the best game with heroes which is best game with the color red which is best game with population under 70,000 which is best game with population over 2 million. It's more than likely, how are the games regardless of genre performing? Unfortunately COX was at the bottom. Although I think other things regardless of the moans and graons at the idea at the time SHOULD Have been done like server merger, cutting back on frequency of updates,  etc. SUre I'm sure with no indication of shutdown some people will be just as angry at ncsoft for those actions as they are now but as angry as they will be most still will stick around and havea game to play instead of the alternative that we are experienceing now. But hopefully, now it taught us overall to be humble to ideas like that and be more aware to when peopel notice on the graphs and in game population drops instead of immediately mocking them as doom sayers, and doing something about it then instead of waiting till last minute when death is upon us like a cigarette smoker deciding to ignore the warning signs but wait when he is starng at the grim reaper to swera off smoking forever as if the reaper will suddenly change his mind. It dont hurt pleading for life even then but the chances are slim compared to the vast amount of chances when the game was still running and listening instead of attacking thinking they are telling you to stop smoking just to get a rise out of ya.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 03:57:51 PM by JaguarX »

LaughingAlex

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2013, 06:03:22 PM »
Thought i'd read otherwise that CoX was actually doing better since the freedom update.  If NCSoft listens to google I think perhaps we'll see the truth of that matter though.  The amount of content being developed for CoX in that last year also contradicted it's success, a game that much in decline that some of us thought wouldn't be having updates like that; it wouldn't have the money for it.
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Noyjitat

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2013, 06:26:27 PM »
Positron said time and time again that sales were higher than ever.

JaguarX

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2013, 06:35:33 PM »
Positron said time and time again that sales were higher than ever.

yes, for COX. but compared to the rest of the line up, it still was near if not at the bottom.

saipaman

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2013, 08:42:45 PM »
yes, for COX. but compared to the rest of the line up, it still was near if not at the bottom.

That may be true; however, I'm sure it would have at least remained stable with I24, if not going up after that.  Lots of companies make the mistake of throwing out products with steady profits in hopes of going for some new blockbuster project.

JaguarX

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2013, 09:09:10 PM »
That may be true; however, I'm sure it would have at least remained stable with I24, if not going up after that.  Lots of companies make the mistake of throwing out products with steady profits in hopes of going for some new blockbuster project.
yup.


The times are a changing it seems. Small steady and or growing is not enough anymore. It's like they want instant hits instant results now now now, or it's gets thrown out. I guess it's just a reflection of society mindset that is also into instant results instant gratification now and days.


I think if we get an old school company or if COX and the likes fall into the hands of one with patience and not all or nothing mindset or too big to worry about a few measely millions, I think that company will be the next big thing as long as they dont lose sight of why they are there.

FatherXmas

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2013, 10:05:57 PM »
How is that different from movies or TV series?  Has to have big numbers on the opening weekend or it's a failure.  Must have huge ratings within the first two weeks or it's canceled.

Once the box sales drop off it's all about the monthly income stream, whether it's subscription, cash shop or both.  How many people pay for that next month and the month after?  How many buy something off the store?

Is automation preferable?  Versus closure of course.  Dumb question.  You have to understand what they mean when they say automation in GW, seasonal events, birthday gifts, regular tournaments will continue to happen like clockwork, just nothing "new".

And in a game like CoH, where the character possibilities were quite large, not talking costume but powers, plus 7 years of content before they did the whole SSA business, there was loads of content that most players never encountered.  I've been playing GW2 for 6 months now, I've done probably 95% or more of the PvE content.  In 6 months of CoH I barely scratched the surface, probably due to altitus.  It was way to much fun to try new builds, ATs, looks, etc.

I surely think CoH could have idled for more than a year before the old timers started wanting new stuff.  But for newer players, they could have stayed there for years.
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JaguarX

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2013, 10:32:07 PM »
How is that different from movies or TV series?  Has to have big numbers on the opening weekend or it's a failure.  Must have huge ratings within the first two weeks or it's canceled.

Aint no difference.
Just in case I was referign to the times prior to tv movies, instant hits and etc where people had to travel and peddle their merchandice to get it caught on, which hardly ever took instant and then from there they had to grow their product and expand which took decades in some cases and mostly the children fo the owner reaped the financial benefits with the hopes they make it grow. Now modern times, tv time, movies, etc, they dont have decades it's now or nothing.

Once the box sales drop off it's all about the monthly income stream, whether it's subscription, cash shop or both.  How many people pay for that next month and the month after?  How many buy something off the store?

Is automation preferable?  Versus closure of course.  Dumb question.  You have to understand what they mean when they say automation in GW, seasonal events, birthday gifts, regular tournaments will continue to happen like clockwork, just nothing "new".

And in a game like CoH, where the character possibilities were quite large, not talking costume but powers, plus 7 years of content before they did the whole SSA business, there was loads of content that most players never encountered.  I've been playing GW2 for 6 months now, I've done probably 95% or more of the PvE content.  In 6 months of CoH I barely scratched the surface, probably due to altitus.  It was way to much fun to try new builds, ATs, looks, etc.

I surely think CoH could have idled for more than a year before the old timers started wanting new stuff.  But for newer players, they could have stayed there for years.
[/quote]

Yup.

Is it me, or are they building games now to be burst hits. What I mean by that they build them with just north of bare minimum content and stuff to bring in big sales then after that, its off to cruise mode until sunset whether that means closing or maintance mode or somewhere in between. Or if it's a big hit like the lottery they might add some stuff here and there. It seems the initial investment and risk is down compared to what it used to be.

If you look at the amount of content that many of the games from the 2004 era was released with some of them were more expansive than some of the new games have been in three years worth of work. Then again I guess those expansion and those big worlds are exspensive to buld and the more exspensive the more risk because it seems no matter how much content the players are always screaming "MORE! MORE! MORE! MORE!" so why spend big money on a bunch of maps out the box when you can release it bit by bit and if things do belly up, not all is lost.

New players, yes they would have liked it but really with the game being relatively unknown, and not many people I know are attracted to games that go into maintence mode, ie CO is prime example of this of people that is new goign there and realzing and complaining about "Hey, where si the dev attention" or rather lack of and leave in a quick manner. And that game is not even in official maintence mode yet. The old guard probably would stay and keep it afloat for years. New players besides oens here and there probably would be few just as it was when it was running over all. No one outside the tight knit group even knew about the existance of COX. COX is getting more publicity it seems after it's dead than when it was alive. SMH.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2013, 11:31:15 PM »
Just a thought... is it possible that CoX could not have existed in maintenance mode, because of the lawsuit requiring them to actively hunt for copyright offenders?

JaguarX

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2013, 11:49:31 PM »
Just a thought... is it possible that CoX could not have existed in maintenance mode, because of the lawsuit requiring them to actively hunt for copyright offenders?
oh snap. that is an interesting thought.

Maintence mode for COX could have been a lasuit waiting to happen for NCSoft and or Paragon Studios due to those jokers that like to make copyright infriging characters.

MindBlender

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2013, 12:18:02 AM »
From what I know about the player base, if AE was still part of the game in maintenance mode, we had the creativity to "take over" new content.  Nothing new from a dev group would not have stopped the game from evolving.  Yes, it got boring with all the farm missions, but if you give that system to folks not waiting on the next release and they will create something better.
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Osborn

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2013, 12:33:21 AM »
Justin Olivetti of Massively's "The Daily Grind" column, which "probes the minds of their readers with deep, thought-provoking questions" every morning, wants to know what readers think.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/05/26/the-daily-grind-is-automation-preferrable-to-mmo-closures/

Note: this is NOT Eliot Lefebvre, the columnist behind Massively's "Mild Mannered Reporter". So if you've got a bone to pick with Eliot, you know, don't direct that at Justin Olivetti by mistake.

Also, personally, for my own curiosity, I'm asking ya'll to dig deep for this question. Many of us have played or are playing Champions Online, and are pretty miffed at Cryptic for slowing development down to a crawl. I've heard a lot of people throw the term "maintenance mode" at Champs. Well, it's not in maintenance mode if it's still getting content updates.

Imagine City of Heroes getting less than what Champs gets (i.e. imagine if NCSoft turned the servers on but no more content updates ever again). Would you be forever grateful if CoH was returned but forever in maintenance mode? Do you think people would lose their gratitude after a few months (or weeks?) and start griping about CoH being in maintenance mode?

I think if CO stopped pretending to not be in maintenance mode, and dropped the VIP thing and only had a minimal cash store to cover just maintenance mode and wasn't using CO to develop STO or NWN, then I think most of the people's complaints would stop, except those that would want the game to come out of maintenance mode and into full game mode.

I think the same would be for CoH. You'd have some people that would want full updates to happen again as long as the game was profitable no matter what state the cash store is in, and they'd feel ripped off if CoH was in the sort of Schrodinger's half-dead/half-alive state CO is in.

But if it was in a minimalistic maintenance mode where it wasn't as monetized, like what it'd be if the game went to private servers, then I don't think as many people would complain.

I think people's complaints mostly stem from either the game being gone 100%, or the game being in limbo where they still want you to pay for a full game, but aren't delivering on it. I think if they told you straight up "This game is in maintenance mode" and closed most of the monetization, people would be fine with it.

And even the people who would want the game to come back to full development/full monetization mode would be still happier than having either nothing or what looks like a scam.

JWBullfrog

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2013, 01:35:01 AM »
Perpetual Maintence mode or no game at all???
 
No contest.
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Tubbius

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Re: Massively: Is automation preferable to MMO closures?
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2013, 04:13:27 PM »
If it meant maintenance mode vs. no mode at all, maintenance.  I was one of the AE authors who actually cared deeply for AE's potential, creating some wonderfully fun stuff, including one at 8 p.m. Eastern the night the servers went down.  I'd be more than up to the challenge of writing more AE stuff if it meant having to rely on that for future story development in-game.