Author Topic: Star Trek Into Darkness (SPOILERS)  (Read 7324 times)

Tenzhi

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Star Trek Into Darkness (SPOILERS)
« on: May 22, 2013, 12:55:32 PM »
Stop me if you've heard this one:  Robocop, Mickey from Doctor Who, and Sherlock Holmes walk into Starfleet...

I kid, I kid...  I had fun watching this one, even if it turned out to be utterly predictable.  However, I've discovered that I don't like Klingons without facial hair.  I don't think the new Uhura is as sexy as the original was.  And I'm beginning to think that Scotty's alien friend is all in his head.

And I like Benedict Cumberbatch as the villain, though I think he'd make a better Cardassian or Romulan than a Khan Noonien Singh.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Codewalker

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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2013, 01:33:32 PM »
I was going to go see this because it looked interesting, then I read some spoilers and now have absolutely zero interest in it.

If it had been an original plot it might have been a fun action movie. But ripping off key parts and scenes of ST2 and jumbling them up as a 'twist'? That's just lame.

Now I might netflix it one day if I'm bored.

Tenzhi

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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness (SPOILERS)
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2013, 07:31:57 PM »
I think only one key scene was taken and twisted.  The plot, however, was different enough from Star Trek 2 that if the main villain had remained named John Harrison then that small twisted bit near the end could only be seen as an homage.

That reminds me - I was also amused by the reference to Section 31.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness (SPOILERS)
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2013, 09:46:53 PM »
Heh... a few days ago (no doubt to promote this film) Yahoo gave a list of the most memorable quotes from Star Trek. The #1 quote was from Into Darkness. All the others were pre-Abrams. Oh yeah... and that #1 quote...  ripped from pre-Abrams Trek.  8)

houtex

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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness (SPOILERS)
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2013, 01:57:23 AM »
Indeed, it's somewhat predictable.  I knew *instantly* when he asked for the torpedo count who John Harrison really was.  I was surprised it took them that long to actually have him voice it though.

I was hoping I was wrong... as he simply isn't Khan-like.  Oh, he's a bad ass villain type, that's for dang sure, but he's not Khan-like in the looks.  Totally immersive-defeating, that.

Excepting that, heck of a show, ripped off scenes and everything.  Still don't know how the heck you can kick something in a downward manner and have it magically turn that force 90 degrees and realign perfectly, but hey... movie.  Fiction.  Stuff ain't real anyway. :)

And while I'd look forward to a third installment of this cast setup... I would rather there be a new, original story.  Enough of revisiting the old timeline, let's get something new in here, 'k?  K.

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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness (SPOILERS)
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2013, 03:01:37 AM »
I am more of a Next Gen fan than the original series, but I really did enjoy it. More than I thought. I had enough spoilers to know people would die, etc but not enough to know all the specifics. I really liked how they wrote Khan's story. I also liked that what they did with this movie was bridge it for sequels to be about new material. And Benedict was /amazing/ as a villain. Maybe he isn't... physically what Montoban was, but the personality really carries. I thought he did a great job manipulating the audience /and/ the characters. Also, seeing Klingons and Tribbles made me happy. I also thought the key scene flip was... interesting. I think Kirk and Spock also evolved as characters too. Considering that Abrams doesn't have the whole series to work with, I overall liked what he did and thought the movie was well written. I also thought it was cool to hear some of the original quotes in a new context.

houtex

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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness (SPOILERS)
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2013, 04:12:19 AM »
Somehow I think I didn't phrase that quite right.

By saying Cumberbatch wasn't "Khan-like" I meant he simply doesn't look like what his full name, Khan Noonien Singh, would normally imply.  Also, the 'history' was written for him to have ruled from Asia to the Middle East:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9qQmuvtjkA&t=4m45s

Fully understanding that Ricardo Montalban wasn't from there either, but he sure looks the part in TOS.  However, it is entirely possible that, given the background of what he is, he could have been Asian, Polynesiean, African, Italian, Scottish, Irish, whatever... his 'creator' would have named him, and he could have still wound up owning that portion of the world under his rule.

But hey, it's Star Trek, and it's a movie.  Stuff ain't real. :)

dwturducken

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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness (SPOILERS)
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2013, 05:34:03 AM »
Just to put this in perspective, if Adolf Hitler came on TV and started spouting off about this or that, he'd either be laughed away or hunted and killed. Now, give him some modern cosmetic surgery to disguise him into a new identity, and we have a whole different level of madman.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Tenzhi

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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness (SPOILERS)
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2013, 12:27:40 PM »
Somehow I think I didn't phrase that quite right.

By saying Cumberbatch wasn't "Khan-like" I meant he simply doesn't look like what his full name, Khan Noonien Singh, would normally imply.  Also, the 'history' was written for him to have ruled from Asia to the Middle East:

I agree, really.  I thought he made for an excellent villain, but he didn't look like a Khan to me.  If I didn't enjoy his acting quite as much as I did, I might raise a fuss about it.  They could've at least gotten him a spray on tan...
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness (SPOILERS)
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2013, 03:25:49 PM »
Just to put this in perspective, if Adolf Hitler came on TV and started spouting off about this or that, he'd either be laughed away or hunted and killed. Now, give him some modern cosmetic surgery to disguise him into a new identity, and we have a whole different level of madman.

Logical, even plausible, but if so, they could have taken 10 seconds to describe something like that, rather than leave people (especially newer fans) scratch in their heads.

Taceus Jiwede

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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness (SPOILERS)
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2013, 05:17:25 PM »
I was going to go see this because it looked interesting, then I read some spoilers and now have absolutely zero interest in it.

If it had been an original plot it might have been a fun action movie. But ripping off key parts and scenes of ST2 and jumbling them up as a 'twist'? That's just lame.

Now I might netflix it one day if I'm bored.

Correct me if I am wrong, which happens somewhat frequently.  But isn't this reboot of Star Trek suppose to be somewhat of a different timeline?  From the first one, you meet the "actual" Spock from the TV show after he traveled back in time on accident.  And then the current Spock and Kirk didn't like each other when first meeting, and probably would of continued not doing so if he hadn't seen that massive paradox that would of melted a mortal man's eyes.(Meeting future Spock)  I dunno, I haven't seen this new movie.  But that is what I got from the first one, especially since this timelines Vulcan planet is super dead.

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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness (SPOILERS)
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2013, 06:00:23 PM »
Yes, which is why after going to all the trouble of invoking time travel (ugh) to create a blank slate, they should actually use it and write fresh stories, IMO.

Not rehashing old ones by putting characters in situations with extremely unlikely parallels to the timeline that they've already massively diverged from. Khan should not be in this film -- it's a move completely unessential to the otherwise somewhat-original plot and probably made solely for marketing reasons.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness (SPOILERS)
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2013, 06:17:52 PM »
As far as Kahn is concerned though, he would've still become a potential problem.  Changes to the Trek timeline only begins to affect humanity at the point in which humans first acquire warp drive (and were originally then welcomed to the galactic neighborhood by the Vulcans). The Botany Bay was launched prior to World War 3, making it considerably older than "First Contact."

I wouldn't expect to see much more of this happening. We won't be meeting V'ger again, or get a climatological disaster from a super whale probe. I'm sure they only opted to go back to Kahn, because it was about as Starwarsy as the original Star Trek films ever got.

Codewalker

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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness (SPOILERS)
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2013, 06:47:48 PM »
It's still extremely unlikely. The Abramsverse split off from the main Trek timeline right around the time Kirk was born, so very recently in the grand scheme of things.

In the original timelime, it was Kirk who found the Botany Bay, significantly later in the timeline (since his taking command of the Enterprise was vastly accelerated due to the destruction of Vulcan and decimation of Starfleet). Given the vastness of space and Starfleet's priority being on rebuilding rather than exploration, I have hard time coming up with plausible scenarios in which Adm. Marcus could have not only found Khan, but known what he was capable of (and yet still somehow believed that he could keep him under control with threats).

At least other than handwaving that the mysterious Section 31 somehow knew about him and decided to act on it in this timeline, while failing to do so for many years in the original.

Tenzhi

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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness (SPOILERS)
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2013, 08:11:56 PM »
It would be easier to believe that this was a different holdover from the eugenics war, or that this Section 31 was experimenting with genetically altered humans.  Take out the name Khan and the tacked on original Spock scene et voila.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

houtex

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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness (SPOILERS)
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2013, 02:36:20 AM »
Oh, V'Ger and Whale Probe are easily possible.  The timeline wasn't affected in anyway regarding those two.  Ditto Guardian of Forever, Mr. Atoz, the Iotians, CharlieX, heck, even the Gary Mitchell thing is still possible.  Naked Time.  The Corbomite Maneuver.  The Doomsday Machine.  Obession, only has Kirk seen the cloud before or not?  Daystrom's M5 computer.  Day of the Dove with the anger fed alien.  Tholians.  Garth.  Lights of Zetar.  Methuselah.  Even the Genesis Device is still in play, as is the not-God, and Praxis exploding, and yes, even the Nexus.
 
Of course, we'd have to go with the Salt Monster... wouldn't that be a good revisit?  Heh.   Oh, and definitely Spock's Brain.  Have to do that.

Kidding about those last two, by the way...
 
To me, what would be *very* interseting, and I personally would dearly love to see is the Talosians revisited, as in The Menagerie/The Cage.  General Order 7 HAS NOT BEEN ISSUED YET, as Pike never got there.  He's dead now, Jim.  So if Kirk and company were to somehow stumble upon them?  Without the General Order?  A little bit more desperate Talosian population maybe due to the closer-to-extinction issue?  And Vina as the Orion Slave Girl.  Heck yeah.  Let's see that.
 
Although, it's possible they were discovered by another ship... or Marcus got to them, but that's highly unlikely, let's be honest about it.  If he had... he wouldn't be there to take the Vengeance out in the first place, I'd bet.

Oh, you want Star Wars/Khan like?  How about going after Balance of Terror?  Might as well get the Romulans some play, although we already know what they look like and all that.  But the same idea.

No?  Trelane then.  Yep, that'd be fantastic.  Or how about Let That Be Your Last Battlefield?  Mirror Mirror?   GARY FREAKIN SEVEN, people... that had a lot of good potential right there.

Point is, there are SO many TOS episodes and not-yet-seen-in-this-new-timeline characters and/or plots that would work, and work well, if done right.  Not even 'with a twist', just reimagined for the new timeline, and haven't yet BEEN affected by the timeline, and won't be, likely.  Whatever their story in TOS, the situation with the Federation and Nero would simply not have made any difference to them, so they're still there, awaiting their discovery by the Enterprise.

Having said that... I sincerely hope they go elsewhere for a story instead of taking yet another piece of TOS and mucking about with it.  New content.  Original.  Well, as original as a couple thousand years of story writing will let 'em be. :)

---

Re: 'controlling' Khan.  The difference is that Marcus was being proactive, as he explained, in searching for new ways to defend the Federation.  And they got to Botany Bay sooner.  Figured out what was going on (like Spock did in the original show) with Khan, et al.  Decided to hold the others hostage to make Khan do their bidding.  That's it.   As far as how he go to her sooner... Yeah.  That is quite interesting, but if you have enough sensors actively whacking everything possible... a DY-100 class Sleeper Ship would definitely show up. 

The problem with the Botany Bay and her whereabouts is this:  Some say only 20 LY away from Earth, some say 300, and anywhere in between.  As there were no records of the Botany Bay being launched, nor who was in it, the trajectory was not known.  Turns out it was towards Betelgeuse, which is 'south east' of Klingon space... according to the maps in Star Trek Encyclopedia, anyway...

Point is... rather amazing that she was found by Marcus.  But excepting that, 'controlling' Khan would have been easy as he cared about his fellow ship mates enough to do it... and bide his time.  They were safe, just frozen, after all.

Adm. Marcus was a person of which good riddance was deserved (as written).  Having Khan off him with the skull crush in front of Carol?  A bit horrid, over the top, but pointing out what Spock Prime said "Ruthless and will kill you to get what he wants."  (paraphrased)
 
---
 
Wow.  I did carry on, didn't I?  :)
 
I'd like to say this about Trek movies vs a series on TV (or cable... or even internet)
 
The problem with a movie is it has to be a heavy hitter, hitting hard, to keep the entertainment value.  Long, interesting, intellectual/topical stories like Let That Be Your Last Battlefield do not do well in the theatre.   Star Trek is NOT movie material, by and large.   Final Frontier, Insurrecton, and Nemesis.  All did badly.  Especially Nemesis.  And yet, Nemesis was about as TNG as TNG got, and Final Frontier was the same for TOS. 
 
But in the big screen... not so much, no.  So you have to go with flashy explody tenseness of dramatic.  And with a few exceptions, that's not TOS, nor is it really Trek.
 
It is going to have to be though, if they want to keep this ship afloat on the big screen.
 
Maybe I shut up now. Heh.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 03:01:29 AM by houtex »

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness (SPOILERS)
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2013, 08:26:22 PM »
Another problem that you have, is there was a time when films were necessary to take a low-budget TV concept and take it to the next level. With the introduction of CGI, that isn't nearly as necessary. For sci-fi shows in particular (because they require a lot more work for things that don't exist in everyday life), this presents an unusual imbalance.

What amazes me though is there were a LOT of places they could have gone with the original timeline. Places that would've presented plenty of opportunities for death, lasers, and star ship 'jibs.' Starfleet history has seem more than its share of wars, and any one of them could have been turned into a film-worthy tale.

That didn't seem to be enough for Hollywood though. I fear that humanity has reached a moral plateau of sorts. We once looked up to our heroes, and aspired to become better people, so we could be more like them. One only needs to watch Batman torturing the Joker in an interrogation room to realize that we no longer want to look up to our heroes. We want them to come down to our level, so they don't tell us we're doing something wrong.

The problem isn't that old Star Trek didn't have the capacity for blockbuster epics (The Wrath of Kahn proves that). They had to take it a step further, and increase the inter-personal drama between the crew. They didn't want that heartwarming camaraderie anymore. They didn't want life on the Enterprise to feel like family. They had to make it more on par with society's barbaric and paranoid nature, even to the point at making Spock, Star Trek's quintessential voice of reason, into an emotionally unstable, sexually impulsive (Pon Farr does NOT count)... human.

*************

As for going over the old material. Yes, there's a lot of great stories in TOS. But you also have to keep in mind that at the time, those plots were very unique. Since that time, they've been recycled in a hundred other mainstream films and shows, and are now more like cliches.

I'd love to see the Planet Killer though... if only they could find a way to make it look more intimidating without shredding CANON in the process. The original solution for destroying it just... didn't make much sense, considering the fact that it probably swallowed entire volcanic worlds without even getting indigestion.

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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness (SPOILERS)
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2013, 09:52:07 PM »
Does anyone feel like Banner's signature line from The Avengers, "That's my secret Captain, I'm always angry" can now be said by Spock as well?  Spock SMASH!

Again this is like the problem doing a Superman movie that doesn't have either Lex Luthor or Zod in it.  That's what the public remembers about the last time a Superman movie was made.  Name the "villain" from the original TOS movies.  Vger, Khan, Klingons, Space Whale Probe, false God and hawkish elements Star Fleet itself.  You could clump both Vger and Space Whale Probe into the giant ship that can kick Star Fleet's butt.  We sort of got that with Nero's ship.  In this movie we got both Khan and hawkish elements of Star Fleet.  All we are missing now is the false God plot and their probably won't redo that because it was an odd number ST movie.

They could do the Guardian of Forever but haven't we done enough time travel already?  The planet killer is a good idea but we all know how to kill it so we would need a twist on it.  I like what Peter David did with the planet killer in his NexGen novel Vendetta.  In it we find out what Kirk fought was a prototype of an anti-borg weapon.  But it does fall into the "giant ship that can kick Star Fleet's butt" classification so done that recently, twice if you count the Admiral's Killerprise.

Problem is ST:TOS due to it's time period is mainly contained stories.  Isolated on a planet or within the ship and not really space battles.  It was about exploring, meeting new civilizations (from the viewers PoV) and then browbeating them to our morality.  Vger was Nomad.  Honestly I can't think of a plot from TOS that hadn't been done in a fashion already that could be used in a Summer Tent Pool movie.
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JetFlash

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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness (SPOILERS)
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2013, 07:08:09 PM »
Enjoyed the movie, had to really stretch my Suspend Disbelief power at times however.  I still don't care for the iBridge and a still don't like the Brewery - er, Engineering.  The Warp Core looked OK however.

The strength of the film (as was the first one) was the casting of the Enterprise officers.  Karl Urban's McCoy especially.

My 2 INF, YMMV. :)


Codewalker

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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness (SPOILERS)
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2013, 08:59:59 PM »
The strength of the film (as was the first one) was the casting of the Enterprise officers.  Karl Urban's McCoy especially.

Karl Urban plays a great McCoy. His portrayal is one of the few things that might tempt me to go see it in spite of all the reasons not to.