Oh look! We saved an MMO. Just not ours....=(

[Lock-On]

It doesn't look like anyone else has seen this article on Rock, Paper, Shotgun yet.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/05/21/guild-wars-1-development-to-be-halted-automated/

To summarize, NCSoft has decided that instead of shutting down Guild Wars 1, they will instead automate all of the scheduled events, tournaments, and other functions that used to be handled by the (admittedly small) dev team, end all new development for the game, and leave the game running in perpetuity.

Or at least until no one is looking and they can shut it down without the bad publicity they'll get. 

On the one hand, I'm very happy that a community is not being destroyed as a result of these actions and that this game and that community will get to live on and have adventures past when the development of the game is considered profitable to the company.

On the other hand....NOW, NCSOFT?  NOW??  Now you get it??

And you thought our actions wouldn't produce anything positive.

I can't type any more.  I'm physically wounded by this news.

[JaguarX]

well, it's progress. One of the gols I thought was to hope and prevent a shutdown at the hands of NCsoft or other companies from happening to other mmo players.

Seems like although COX isnt back, this might be a sign of a victory assuming our actions had influence.

We wanted NCSoft to change their ways and this may be a step in that direction that they either do care about players or starting to realize the importance of the players.

I look at it this way. If asked about two months ago if NCsoft will put a game into maintance mode many would say hell no, they will close it. Now, here we are and they are putting a game into maintance mode instead of shutting the doors. Either our influence had somethign to do with it, our influence was irrelevant in that decision and it's a deal between Arena Net and NCsoft or something of the likes, or they didnt want to risk pissing off GW players and potentially hurting the money potential of GW2 in a major way.
(keyword, major way. Meaning while a few players would have played GW or GW2 without shutdown, those players are very few compared to number of players in GW 2 already and the other ex coxers that moved ot GW2 anyways regardless of the shutdown actions).

Or lastly maybe they just simply realized the mistake from the COX shutdown and etc. and decided to see what happens if they kept a game open for once.

Either way I'm happy as hell that another player base didnt have to suffer a shutdown and game closing. I wouldnt wish that on anyone, especially for the people where they call it a home.

[therain93]

well, it's progress. One of the gols I thought was to hope and prevent a shutdown at the hands of NCsoft or other companies from happening to other mmo players.

<snip>

Either way I'm happy as hell that another player base didnt have to suffer a shutdown and game closing. I wouldnt wish that on anyone, especially for the people where they call it a home.

This.  I wouldn't claim victory, but it's a positive outcome in what could have easily been a dire situation for another playerbase.

[houtex]

That... sucks. 

Oh, I'm happy for the Guild Wars 1 people... although I read 'perpetuity' with a bit of skepticism... "Play Free Forever" comes to mind.... But they get to hang about in their world and with their works, and that's a Good Thing(tm) for them.

But that NCSoft finds it equitable to do this for GW1, but not CoH... yeah.  That's the 'sucks' part.

There's likely a ton more to it... I agree with ya, JaguarX, in that it's probably a hedge against tickin' off the GW1 people, which... were/are there more of them than was in CoH?  Actively?  I myself don't know...  If there were, and by quite a few % points... makes more sense they don't have a gigantic ticked off party than a small ticked off party*. 

I'm thinking this is an experiment.  And I would not doubt that the uproar and possibly continuing negativity towards NCSoft regarding the CoH fiasco had some part in this decision.

/ * - Their thoughts, not mine, btw, we ain't small.  We're Big Damn Heroes.  Ain't we just?  Shiny.

[Terwyn]

I would honestly happily consider this a victory. They are learning.

Though, I still play Guild Wars, so I'm biased.

[JanessaVR]

Talk about striking when the iron is hot.  They need to CALL JACK.  Can't wait for the start of our ad campaign...

[Captain Electric]

If we had anything at all to do with this (the world may never know), then indeed it is a victory for us.

It seems like it is a step in a better direction for NCSoft, in any case, although I'm reserved about that for now. I'm half-expecting FatherXmas or somebody to come in and say, "Nope, looks like they have this thing in their contract with ArenaNet...."

But, OK, putting all of that aside, the bottom-line result is that there's a community out there who just found out that they'll get to see their game world live on a while longer, perhaps a long while longer, people like Terwyn above.

This is good news, not just for them, either. It's damn good news, and I'm happy about it too.

I'm still boycotting NCSoft though.

[no hero]

I would honestly happily consider this a victory. They are learning.

We. Win.

"We can't hold out forever Heroes, but we *can* give them one *humongous* Rewire."
- Hot Rod, Transformers: The Movie (1986)

[eabrace]

A pyrrhic victory is still a victory, I suppose. 

[Bliz]

I've heard several times that Arena net has a clause that gives them either the right to buy out or the straight out rights (or something to that effect) to GW if NCSoft decides to shut it down. Cryptic had the same type of clause for CoX that for whatever reason did not port over when Paragon bought out.

So, as much as I want to say we had and effect, I'm not so sure.

Take it with a grain of salt as I'm having trouble finding a source.

[Captain Electric]

Just in the past 10 minutes since I wrote my above reply, I've become a bit more suspicious that this "victory" has more to do with Arenanet, less (and more likely nothing) to do with us.

In which case, you know what? It's still a victory for someone out there. For Arenanet and their fans. Good for them. Because, really, with that kind of preventative foresight, they deserve an industry trophy.

P.S. It may become harder and harder for NA/EU studios to say "no" to eastern publishers, as much as we'd like them to after a mess like ours. But this thing with Arenanet may be evidence that if a studio covers all of its bases appropriately, it can survive in a world that is, let's face it, increasingly culturally Bladerunner (I'm not talking about the androids, but the other big elephant in that film).

[Iron-Emerald]

I'm really happy with this news to be honest. I mean sure, there are other factors going on here due to having a different relationship with ArenaNet. But if the SaveCoH actions and reactions were any kind of consideration in doing things this way then I think the CoH fanbase can feel proud.

Sure, the ultimate goal we're all after is for City of Heroes to once more be playable. But for me at least there's always been the secondary goal of hoping that company's will re-evaluate how they do such things in future. If we've contributed at all to changing attitudes in that regard then that's a great thing.

[FatherXmas]

Sort of talked about already in the Other Games section.

http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,8473.0.html

You can find my comments there.

[Taceus Jiwede]

I've become a bit more suspicious that this "victory" has more to do with Arenanet

Ya kind of my thoughts too, it seem's like they have a sweet deal going right now.  But maybe we had something to do with this, I'd like to think we did.  It is the first NCSoft that seem's to be getting a decent burial.

[Segev]

Because we cannot be sure we "did" it, that it wasn't something Areanet did, we should not crow victory. In fact, we shouldn't do so, anyway, because that has connotations of the "poor winner" and trying to rub somebody's face in it.

Now, despite how we may feel about NCSoft, is a time to direct at least some of our energies to congratulating GW1's player base and community, AreaNet, and, yes, thank NCSoft for showing this new concern for their players. Celebrate the continuance of GW1 with its community. Laud, in at least a few small ways, through some of the avenues we used to appeal before, NCSoft for its new direction. For realigning its focus to support its communities.

Yes, the word-choice is deliberate. No, do not make it snarky. Use it to support this direction, and to show them that we can be friendly allies, if they act with respect.

They have done, for GW1, what we would have liked them to do for CoH. Reach out and show them we appreciate it. If we mention, "we wish CoH had gotten this treatment," we need to carefully do so so that we don't look like we're being sour. Wistful, nostalgic, regretful, sure. But while we have the right to be bitter, we cannot and should not show it in relation to this, which is a good thing. We are heroes, after all, and heroes are grateful when good wins out, even if it wasn't the good they pursued for themselves, and even if they are not sure their efforts mattered.

Be heroes once more; it will help encourage more good behavior from NCSoft in the future.

We can always lobby again as we have been in the future, as opportunities arise. (Who knows? If we show them the positive PR benefits of this, maybe they'll be more inclined to work with TF:HM's eventual recruit.)

[DrakeGrimm]

One small step for hero, one giant leap for hero-kind. In this kind of a battle, any ground gained can be measured in inches and is a victory all the same. Now let's get out there and press the attack! (Politely, though. We're still heroes after all.)

[Triplash]

Because we cannot be sure we "did" it, that it wasn't something Areanet did, we should not crow victory. In fact, we shouldn't do so, anyway, because that has connotations of the "poor winner" and trying to rub somebody's face in it.

Now, despite how we may feel about NCSoft, is a time to direct at least some of our energies to congratulating GW1's player base and community, AreaNet, and, yes, thank NCSoft for showing this new concern for their players. Celebrate the continuance of GW1 with its community. Laud, in at least a few small ways, through some of the avenues we used to appeal before, NCSoft for its new direction. For realigning its focus to support its communities.

Yes, the word-choice is deliberate. No, do not make it snarky. Use it to support this direction, and to show them that we can be friendly allies, if they act with respect.

They have done, for GW1, what we would have liked them to do for CoH. Reach out and show them we appreciate it. If we mention, "we wish CoH had gotten this treatment," we need to carefully do so so that we don't look like we're being sour. Wistful, nostalgic, regretful, sure. But while we have the right to be bitter, we cannot and should not show it in relation to this, which is a good thing. We are heroes, after all, and heroes are grateful when good wins out, even if it wasn't the good they pursued for themselves, and even if they are not sure their efforts mattered.

Be heroes once more; it will help encourage more good behavior from NCSoft in the future.

We can always lobby again as we have been in the future, as opportunities arise. (Who knows? If we show them the positive PR benefits of this, maybe they'll be more inclined to work with TF:HM's eventual recruit.)

I rarely quote a full post when it's longer than a paragraph, but this one is just so entirely true. Yes to all of this. Positive reinforcement; carrot instead of stick; show 'em what good PR can do; prove ourselves the good guys by acting like the good guys, not like selfish children who happen to be allied with the good guys; all of that.

Whether we want our efforts to be taken seriously, or we just want to be decent people, this is the right attitude to have.


I'm seeing this as a very positive turn of events for the people who play Guild Wars. And no, I'm not one of those people. I bought the game and a couple expansions a few years back, tried it, didn't care for it. But I'm happy for the people who do like it. Why? Because now that I know what it's like to lose a game world that you genuinely care about, I would never wish that on the players in another game world.

So let's be happy for them. And if you decide to go tell them that you're happy for them, try to leave our baggage out of it. Let's not be that person, the one who has to rain on everybody else's parade by constantly bringing up their own personal issues. We're better than that. And if we're not yet, then the only way we'll get to be, is by cutting out crap like that.

It's a good day for their game! Let it just be a good day, period.

[Taceus Jiwede]

Because we cannot be sure we "did" it, that it wasn't something Areanet did, we should not crow victory. In fact, we shouldn't do so, anyway, because that has connotations of the "poor winner" and trying to rub somebody's face in it.

Now, despite how we may feel about NCSoft, is a time to direct at least some of our energies to congratulating GW1's player base and community, AreaNet, and, yes, thank NCSoft for showing this new concern for their players. Celebrate the continuance of GW1 with its community. Laud, in at least a few small ways, through some of the avenues we used to appeal before, NCSoft for its new direction. For realigning its focus to support its communities.

Yes, the word-choice is deliberate. No, do not make it snarky. Use it to support this direction, and to show them that we can be friendly allies, if they act with respect.

They have done, for GW1, what we would have liked them to do for CoH. Reach out and show them we appreciate it. If we mention, "we wish CoH had gotten this treatment," we need to carefully do so so that we don't look like we're being sour. Wistful, nostalgic, regretful, sure. But while we have the right to be bitter, we cannot and should not show it in relation to this, which is a good thing. We are heroes, after all, and heroes are grateful when good wins out, even if it wasn't the good they pursued for themselves, and even if they are not sure their efforts mattered.

Be heroes once more; it will help encourage more good behavior from NCSoft in the future.

We can always lobby again as we have been in the future, as opportunities arise. (Who knows? If we show them the positive PR benefits of this, maybe they'll be more inclined to work with TF:HM's eventual recruit.)

Well put Segev.  I know Triplash just quoted it, but what you said rings true through the halls of Titan.  So I felt it was good to let you know how much I think you hit the nail on the head

[LadyVamp]

Before I would consider declaring victory, I would have to ask when they killed off lineage did they see a dramatic drop in lineage 2?  Might be as simple as, "We took a hell of a hit in lineage 2 when we killed lineage.  maybe we better leave gw1 up until we get ready to kill off gw2."

On the other hand, if there was no effect in the case of those two games, perhaps they are catching a clue and maybe, just maybe, they would be open to negotiation to put coh back up on a server or two.  At least, I would hope they would be willing to talk.  But we won't know unless someone asks.

[Mistress Urd]

Its not "victory" until I can play CoH again.

[OzonePrime]

Its not "victory" until I can play CoH again.

Yes!

[Axonius]

They had no choice but to keep GW1 alive. If they didn't, GW2 players would start looking over their shoulder.

I personally doubt COX was influential.

[Surelle]

I seem to remember hearing even years ago that ArenaNet had an escape clause built into their contracts with NCSoft.   People used to talk about it even back then, because NCSoft was always known as a bit of a game killer.

Much as I love CoH, I really don't think we or anyone connected to CoH had much to do with this, honestly.  I think the real answer is in ArenaNet's original contracts.  I mean, do you think NC would have given Paragon Studios severance packages if it hadn't been bound contractually to do so?  I don't.

And wasn't GW1 taking in even less money than CoH when CoH got the axe?  If NC could shutter GW1 for good, they'd be doing it.

[JanessaVR]

And wasn't GW1 taking in even less money than CoH when CoH got the axe?  If NC could shutter GW1 for good, they'd be doing it.

Depressingly, I suspect you may be correct.  Sigh...

[Aggelakis]

And wasn't GW1 taking in even less money than CoH when CoH got the axe?  If NC could shutter GW1 for good, they'd be doing it.

Depressingly, I suspect you may be correct.  Sigh...

GW1 took in more total than CoH total over the life of both games, and GW1 came out a year later. After stopping expansions on GW1, the dev crew was down to a skeleton anyway for the last couple years. The last time they had a full dev crew was 2007 to get out Eye of the North; they whittled it down slowly as Guild Wars 2 ramped up. Now it's just "leave the lights on" mode and if something catastrophic breaks, they'll pull someone (or someones) off another game until it's fixed, then put them back on the other game.

[JaguarX]

GW1 took in more total than CoH total over the life of both games, and GW1 came out a year later. After stopping expansions on GW1, the dev crew was down to a skeleton anyway for the last couple years. The last time they had a full dev crew was 2007 to get out Eye of the North; they whittled it down slowly as Guild Wars 2 ramped up. Now it's just "leave the lights on" mode and if something catastrophic breaks, they'll pull someone (or someones) off another game until it's fixed, then put them back on the other game.

dang.

How about flowing capes? Did coh have more flowing capes than GW1?

[Illusionss]

And wasn't GW1 taking in even less money than CoH when CoH got the axe?  If NC could shutter GW1 for good, they'd be doing it.

I feel this is an accurate assessment; if they only dared, GW1 would be history. But they don't want to anger ArenaNet.

FOR NOW. Eventually, as soon as they DO dare, GW1 will be history. And, sad to say, I still feel GW1 should have gotten the axe before CoX, since those players had somewhere to go. We didn't.

If I played Lineage or Aion I would be shaking in my boots.

[Taceus Jiwede]

I still feel GW1 should have gotten the axe before CoX, since those players had somewhere to go. We didn't.

No doubt.  GW 1 and GW 2 may have their difference, but they are still brothers and would make for a very good refugee.  All us CoHers have that is close is CO which is more like a distant cousin.....possibly even second cousin.

Also I am curious and some what impressed at the amount of pull Arenanet has with NCSoft.  I dunno what they did or who they kissed where but NCSoft seems to be careful about stomping all over their toes.  It's a shame Paragon didn't have the same kind of relationship.  They certainly deserved it.

[FatherXmas]

If I played Lineage or Aion I would be shaking in my boots.

Again why?  Lineage is their biggest money maker last quarter.  Yes Aion has faded in popularity in the last few years but it's still the and most popular MMORPG in PC Cafes in Korea, 2nd in sales in Korea after Lineage and 3rd overall.  You can never discount how well a game is doing in the home market when it comes to guessing if NCSOFT thinks the game should be closed or not. 

Lineage last quarter had 96% of it's total worldwide sales, in Korea.  Sure they closed the servers here in NA.  By the time they released it here Evercrack had already shown the NA market two years before that 3rd person PoV MMOs were the future.  Who wanted to play a sprite style, perceived UO "clone" when DAoC, AO and Runequest rolled out the same year in NA plus two EQ expansions?  But rolling out your most popular game from the homeland into your new NA market was a logical choice.  No doing so would be like McDonalds not putting the Big Mac on the menu in Korea.  Sure after 10 years in NA they finally threw in the towel because at some point business decisions need to be made with the head and not the heart.

[FatherXmas]

No doubt.  GW 1 and GW 2 may have their difference, but they are still brothers and would make for a very good refugee.  All us CoHers have that is close is CO which is more like a distant cousin.....possibly even second cousin.

Also I am curious and some what impressed at the amount of pull Arenanet has with NCSoft.  I dunno what they did or who they kissed where but NCSoft seems to be careful about stomping all over their toes.  It's a shame Paragon didn't have the same kind of relationship.  They certainly deserved it.

Well from what I can tell ArenaNet was NCSOFT's first western development studio they bought outright.  They may have financed other games in a joint partnership/distributor-developer relationship but they wanted to own ArenaNet.

Why?  Because it was founded by members of Blizzard and who were lead developers on both StarCraft and WarCraft series as well as Battle.net.  Since StarCraft is wildly popular in Korea, employing these individuals would be considered a major coup.  I think it was their reputation that helped them forge a rather unique arrangement with their new owners.

[Lucretia MacEvil]

Is there any chance at all that NCsoft could/would put CoX back up in "leave the lights on" mode?
I don't want to get my hopes up, but I do want our world back.

[Illusionss]

Again why?  Lineage is their biggest money maker last quarter.  Yes Aion has faded in popularity in the last few years but it's still the and most popular MMORPG in PC Cafes in Korea, 2nd in sales in Korea after Lineage and 3rd overall.

Because we are talking about the #1 MMO killer, and no one and nothing is safe. Especially older games.

NCSoft does not make rational decisions. They do what they want to do.... except to ArenaNet, and my hat is off to those intrepid souls who seem to have NCSOft by the cojones. NCSoft doesn't fear much, but they seem to fear ArenaNet. Good job.

[Illusionss]

Is there any chance at all that NCsoft could/would put CoX back up in "leave the lights on" mode?
I don't want to get my hopes up, but I do want our world back.

I would say the chances are between slim and none; had that been in the cards, they would have done that already.

[Taceus Jiwede]

Why?  Because it was founded by members of Blizzard and who were lead developers on both StarCraft and WarCraft series as well as Battle.net.  Since StarCraft is wildly popular in Korea, employing these individuals would be considered a major coup.  I think it was their reputation that helped them forge a rather unique arrangement with their new owners.

Now that is interesting.  I had no idea.  Your post would make sense of their treatment.  I just assumed they had a wicked lawyer.

[FatherXmas]

And Carbine Studios, the guys who are doing Wildstar, were some of the original people behind WoW.  It helps if you have a rep in the industry.

But it did bite NCSOFT in the butt with the Garriotts.  Win some, lose some.

[FatherXmas]

Because we are talking about the #1 MMO killer, and no one and nothing is safe. Especially older games.

But not the ones in the homeland, the ones they developed, ever.  Lineage II is their weakest MMO right now in Korea and it's 7th in Korea after ArcheAge, WoW and Maple Story.

[srmalloy]

I would say the chances are between slim and none; had that been in the cards, they would have done that already.

For them to do that now, they would have to establish a new server farm -- and you can bet that by 0800 the next working day after the shutdown the CoH servers were already being wiped and repurposed, whether by NCSoft or by their hosting company -- with all of the other support servers, along with the Net connections to feed them, and then load the last backups for each game server, the authentication server, the store (you think they'd even think about bringing it back if it was going to be just a money sink?), and then contact all the people who had CoH accounts, particularly the subscribers, and hope that enough of them came back to be able to at least break even on operating costs. And they got enough vitriol from the playerbase during the sunset period to make them believe that they would only get a small fraction of the playerbase back -- certainly not enough to pay for the upkeep, much less make a profit.

Any chance of the game going into maintenance mode died irrecoverably at midnight on November 30, 2012.

[General Idiot]

And Carbine Studios, the guys who are doing Wildstar, were some of the original people behind WoW.  It helps if you have a rep in the industry.

....and suddenly Wildstar's choice of art style makes sense.

[Memorandum]

It doesn't look like anyone else has seen this article on Rock, Paper, Shotgun yet.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/05/21/guild-wars-1-development-to-be-halted-automated/

To summarize, NCSoft has decided that instead of shutting down Guild Wars 1, they will instead automate all of the scheduled events, tournaments, and other functions that used to be handled by the (admittedly small) dev team, end all new development for the game, and leave the game running in perpetuity.

Or at least until no one is looking and they can shut it down without the bad publicity they'll get. 

On the one hand, I'm very happy that a community is not being destroyed as a result of these actions and that this game and that community will get to live on and have adventures past when the development of the game is considered profitable to the company.

On the other hand....NOW, NCSOFT?  NOW??  Now you get it??

And you thought our actions wouldn't produce anything positive.

I can't type any more.  I'm physically wounded by this news.

Sorry to set it straight. The decision has nothing to do with us.

It is very simple: Guildwars 1 and Guildwars 2 are connected. Guildwars 1 interacts with Guildwars 2. You cannot earn specific items (armors and more) in Guildwars 2, if you did not finish specific quests and rewards in Guildwars 1. So there is no way to shut down Guildwars 1 if you don't make a big changement in a lot of stuff (rewards) in Guildwars 2. So from the sales point of view... it is very logic and stratetical to keep guildwars 1 running, because NCSoft/Arenanet makes more money that way, if you want special items/bonus in Guildwars 2 nobody can get if you did not play Guildwars 1.

So here is now the link, explaining what I'm talking about:
http://hom.guildwars2.com/en/#page=welcome

This is how the hall of monuments looks in GW1 (there exist already a lot of NPCs there, you can also store pets found in GW1 in the hall of monuments, to get a higher legend ranking):



This is how the hall of monuments looks in GW2, as example these items you can only optain, if you made archivements in GW1. You cannot get these items in GW2 without playing GW1!



As you can see, I have a blue portal stone in my inventory for teleporting me to the hall of monuments. I don't know if GW2 players have it too (who did not buy GW1 and connected both accounts, because you need to connect both accounts to get the benefits as GW1 is managed by NCSoft and GW2 by Arenanet - who knows the reason for the decision behind that...).

[JaguarX]

Sorry to set it straight. The decision has nothing to do with us.

It is very simple: Guildwars 1 and Guildwars 2 are connected. Guildwars 1 interacts with Guildwars 2. You cannot earn specific items (armors and more) in Guildwars 2, if you did not finish specific quests and rewards in Guildwars 1. So there is no way to shut down Guildwars 1 if you don't make a big changement in a lot of stuff (rewards) in Guildwars 2. So from the sales point of view... it is very logic and stratetical to keep guildwars 1 running, because NCSoft/Arenanet makes more money that way, if you want special items/bonus in Guildwars 2 nobody can get if you did not play Guildwars 1.

(going to add screen and infos soon, just some minutes to get them)

ah. that makes perfect logical sense.

[Sugoi]

And the pessimist in me says we'll know that it was saved by ArenaNet when NCSoft axes their next old game.

[Memorandum]

[FatherXmas]

Posted on Sept 5, 2012.  So not really new info.

And now the site requires registration or knowledge of who you are.  Great.

[Empyrean]

Ok, so, I posted a similar thread to this one about a positive influence on the industry hopefully due to our efforts, but it was in regards to Champions Online rather than Guild Wars 1 or some other fantasy MMO, and I was immediately locked--unlike this very Guild Wars 1 thread. 

I know that the rationale is that I was locked because there was a discussion about this topic on the Champions forum, but I was actually talking about the exact same thing as this thread--the fact that that our efforts have possibly made a positive difference for another game. 

Honestly, it seems like the reason that there is a special Champions forum is just so that that game is walled off from general discussion as much as possible.

I know that there are  "Heroes and Villains" and "The Phoenix Project" in the works, but there is also Champions Online---and that is ok.  It seems like any other Superhero MMO is a touchy subject on these boards--which is understandable, I guess, but it's not really healthy.

I know I'll get flamed or banned or whatever for this, but--it isn't a zero sum game, and Champions isn't the enemy.  The healthier the Superhero MMO niche becomes, the better for all of us.  There is an old saying--the rising tide lifts all ships.

[FatherXmas]

We have a entire sub-board devoted to CO and I haven't seen anyone get up in arms about any other MMO, superhero genre or otherwise unless it's an NCSOFT product in which case it's discussed in the other games section where NCSOFT bashing on general principle is frowned upon.

That's the reason the CO threads here are locked with a notice about posting in the thread in CO's sub-board.

[Golden Girl]

Honestly, it seems like the reason that there is a special Champions forum is just so that that game is walled off from general discussion as much as possible.

To prevent infection.

[Empyrean]

To prevent infection.

FatherXmas, I really do understand your point, and I believe that you feel that way, but Golden Girl just obligingly illustrated my point.

I just don't think this attitude is healthy and I think it is more part of the culture here than anyone wants to publicly admit... except for GG.

Anywho, nuff said.

[Golden Girl]

This is a City of Heroes fan site - we need to maintain a certain standard of quality.

[Tacitala]

certain standard of quality.

How about not acting like a facetious snot?  Is that a standard of quality we can live up to?

[Golden Girl]

Standards of quality are important - and untill enough gamers demand better standards of quality, then corporate scum like PWE and their fellow scammers will continue to pollute the market with their garbage.

[Stormsurge]

I think anyone who wants to work with NCSoft now realizes that they have to cover their asses first. I have no doubt in my mind that NCsoft would like nothing more then to shutdown GW1. Too bad for them that ArenaNet seems to be smart enough to know how to deal with them.

[Aggelakis]

Standards of quality are important - and untill enough gamers demand better standards of quality, then corporate scum like PWE and their fellow scammers will continue to pollute the market with their garbage.

PWE has some pretty great games. Your repeated, vociferous, unprompted toxicity is bordering on inappropriate.

[FatherXmas]

FatherXmas, I really do understand your point, and I believe that you feel that way, but Golden Girl just obligingly illustrated my point.

I just don't think this attitude is healthy and I think it is more part of the culture here than anyone wants to publicly admit... except for GG.

Anywho, nuff said.

And that's why we have the Other Games board where she can't come in and slap people around for mentioning anything that's not the one true MMO or it's self declared children.  But outside that board she will gourd you and any game you mention and their devs and publishers. 

And if you really want to see get really nasty, suggest that Wildstar or GW2 are pretty fun games.  But wear you fireproof suit because it's going to get toasty.

[JaguarX]

And that's why we have the Other Games board where she can't come in and slap people around for mentioning anything that's not the one true MMO or it's self declared children.  But outside that board she will gourd you and any game you mention and their devs and publishers. 

And if you really want to see get really nasty, suggest that Wildstar or GW2 are pretty fun games.  But wear you fireproof suit because it's going to get toasty.

And that is very sad.

Like some talking out the two sides of the mouth. One side saying "We are accepting laid back mature community." The other side saying stuff that is anything but. Sad.

I do get Empyrean point, it shouldnt even have to be that way if the community is as accepting and mature as the ysay they are. But since it is that way, that means it is not the way they say they are.

[Golden Girl]

PWE has some pretty great games.

They have some great connections with gold farming operations - that's the only "great" thing about them.

[JaguarX]

They have some great connections with gold farming operations - that's the only "great" thing about them.

Ironically I seen more gold farmersi n COX than STO, NW and CO combined.

Not sure about the others. Are gold farmers bad in those other offerings of PWE outside the mentioned three?

[Aggelakis]

PWE has some pretty great games. Your repeated, vociferous, unprompted toxicity is bordering on inappropriate.

It's the second part of this post that's really important, GG. Please pay attention to the whole post instead of just what you're interested in. " "

[Empyrean]

Evidently, Golden Girl is undergoing an unfortunate secondary mutation, and becoming...

The Golden Troll!

Seriously, GG, you might want to think about how many people are going to want to play a game made by someone doing this kind of trolling.

[General Idiot]

Evidently, Golden Girl is undergoing an unfortunate secondary mutation, and becoming...

The Golden Troll!

Seriously, GG, you might want to think about how many people are going to want to play a game made by someone doing this kind of trolling.

No, she was that years ago. It's just slightly more obvious now.

[Quinch]

Can we all settle down a bit, please?

[JaguarX]

Can we all settle down a bit, please?

Yeah.

[FatherXmas]

She's not a troll, just an enthusiastic defender of the faith trying to keep everyone on point.  And the point being CoH was ripped from us by penny pinching corporate foreigners who didn't "get us" and our independent spirit and we will do anything to bring it back even if it means writing it from scratch just to show them how wrong they are.

[Empyrean]

She's not a troll, just an enthusiastic defender of the faith trying to keep everyone on point.  And the point being CoH was ripped from us by penny pinching corporate foreigners who didn't "get us" and our independent spirit and we will do anything to bring it back even if it means writing it from scratch just to show them how wrong they are.

Well, I guess the definition of troll is debatable, but she sure gets ugly quick if you so much as incidentally mention any other games.  Loving CoH doesn't mean you have to hate all other games.

But, I shouldn't have taken the poke that I did, and I apologize for that.

[Twisted Toon]

Well, I guess the definition of troll is debatable, but she sure gets ugly quick if you so much as incidentally mention any other games.  Loving CoH doesn't mean you have to hate all other games.

But, I shouldn't have taken the poke that I did, and I apologize for that.

I have tried CO, I don't really care for it all that much. I still dust off my one F2P character and run a couple of alerts or missions. But it just doesn't capture my attention like CoH did. I actually play STO more than CO. And that doesn't get played as much as SW:TOR. None of them, however, hold a candle to CoH.

Now, I just get board after a couple of hours and go watch TV or something.

I don't think of any other game as "the enemy", they just don't hold my interest like CoH.

[Segev]

It would be nice if we could maintain a certain level of civility in these forums. CO has a community which has been largely warm and receptive to CoH refugees seeking a life raft. Denigrating it and its parent company is not called for, and reflects badly on this community. It's perfectly fine to dislike the game. Bitterness over CoH's closure should not be directed at Crytpic, PWE, or CO (or any other game). It is not only childish, but makes all those who would otherwise wish to be our allies feel they're being tainted by the behavior, and drives them away.

[JaguarX]

It would be nice if we could maintain a certain level of civility in these forums. CO has a community which has been largely warm and receptive to CoH refugees seeking a life raft. Denigrating it and its parent company is not called for, and reflects badly on this community. It's perfectly fine to dislike the game. Bitterness over CoH's closure should not be directed at Crytpic, PWE, or CO (or any other game). It is not only childish, but makes all those who would otherwise wish to be our allies feel they're being tainted by the behavior, and drives them away.

basically.

[LadyShin]

Its not "victory" until I can play CoH again.

It's not victory till Paragon Studios is up and running again.

[JanessaVR]

It's not victory till Paragon Studios is up and running again.

At this point, even I have pretty much given up hoping for that.  We've lost a lot of momentum, it's been over 6 months since the game closed, the former Paragon Studios employees have dispersed to the 4 corners of the Earth, no one's been remotely interested in our pitch (it looks like Disney ignored us completely), and VV's gone and probably not coming back.

I'm still willing to assist in funding our (hopefully) upcoming ad campaign, but even I expect it to do little but (hopefully) blacken NCSoft's eye.

My real hopes are with the reverse engineering teams at this point, who are working on getting us a community server.  I think that's about all I can realistically hope for at this point.

[JaguarX]

At this point, even I have pretty much given up hoping for that.  We've lost a lot of momentum, it's been over 6 months since the game closed, the former Paragon Studios employees have dispersed to the 4 corners of the Earth, no one's been remotely interested in our pitch (it looks like Disney ignored us completely), and VV's gone and probably not coming back.

I'm still willing to assist in funding our (hopefully) upcoming ad campaign, but even I expect it to do little but (hopefully) blacken NCSoft's eye.

My real hopes are with the reverse engineering teams at this point, who are working on getting us a community server.  I think that's about all I can realistically hope for at this point.

I doubt it will blacken their eye. Remember we barely made up 3% of their sales prior to shutdown and more than likely most customers that play or played or thinking about playing ncsoft games already know or heard about the shut down.

remember they shut down 4 games at leats prior to shutting down COX. Most of the cox community knew about those shut downs, but did it stop many people from logging in? Possibly, if the downward trend of players and income was any indication but I think that downward trend after their last game prior to COX shutdown was other factors. Same with current players now. Many just as many here, probably said "COX gone? Dang that sucks." And continue to play.

I think we are coming to a point of over exposure and wearing otu the audience outside here. Many already seem to be making comments that dont show happy support. and support comments from people that are not here and not part of COX are getting less and less. I say with the ad campaign either chill out for a moment or try to not focus on negative. I think it's starting to get to the point where this is all getting passed by as "Oh those crazy saveCOX people are still at it. Dont they have anything better to do?"

Or focus the ad more for the general population whether gaming general population or not and not so much focus on "getting back at ncsoft and trying to black their eye."  One, remember if there any hope to selling, ya dont want them to get in the mood like they are in with TR and not sell it and try to bury it forever for good no matter who knocks on their door and then go on a witch hunt for every single private server out there like they also did with TR, some were in the very early stages probably even less develop than most of the stuff already ad here. Nor do we want to be business poison. Disney ignored us, meh, it was the most likely outcome anyways but it was tried. Google might do the same. But remember no matter if the all powerful being from two galaxy away with 8 trillion dollars come with an offer to buy, NCSOft still hold the cards.


In short, if we want war then prepare for war and the results. And I dont think many of us are Garrotts with shit ton of money to either sue or countersue NCSoft or defend against them and no, not all TR private server owners went out as the sight of the C&D, although I dont think many went to court or made it that far but even when they paid for a lawyer and they did they think even their own lawyer decided it was best to just shut it down. Remember in court of stuff like that, it isnt all about morals and whether or not ncsoft did the nice or mean thing of shutting down the game. It's about legalities even if the company doing the suing is a douche. 

[LadyVamp]

It would be nice if we could maintain a certain level of civility in these forums. CO has a community which has been largely warm and receptive to CoH refugees seeking a life raft. Denigrating it and its parent company is not called for, and reflects badly on this community. It's perfectly fine to dislike the game. Bitterness over CoH's closure should not be directed at Crytpic, PWE, or CO (or any other game). It is not only childish, but makes all those who would otherwise wish to be our allies feel they're being tainted by the behavior, and drives them away.

+1

[Aggelakis]

It's not victory till Paragon Studios is up and running again.

I'm sorry to say, you will never have your victory. Paragon has scattered to the winds, some of them not even working in gaming anymore.

However, we will probably get OUR victory, in that eventually City will probably be available (probably NOT through NCsoft or an actual sale of the product) and eventually we will have 1-3 spiritual successors that grew out of our love for the game.

[MakoMako]

remember they shut down 4 games at leats prior to shutting down COX. Most of the cox community knew about those shut downs, but did it stop many people from logging in? Possibly, if the downward trend of players and income was any indication but I think that downward trend after their last game prior to COX shutdown was other factors. Same with current players now. Many just as many here, probably said "COX gone? Dang that sucks." And continue to play.

Plucking this one out of your post, Jaguar. Because this is something I had a long talk with a few people about.

Myself and many other friends of mine, within City of Heroes, were largely ignorant of the events of Tabula Rasa and the outright fraud committed by NCSoft. I knew Tabula Rasa existed, but I honestly had no idea it had any association with NCSoft. Not until -after- the shut down.

I bring this up because this goes for a lot of people I know. And I had to ask myself how exactly I would've reacted if I knew that continuing to play City of Heroes would've held the same appeal anymore... Knowing that I'm directly paying a company that had so poorly decided the fate of games and game developers in the past, that it actually tried to screw over someone that used to be among my favorite developers (Lord British).

I have to say... Had I known about this in even the first year of City of Heroes? I probably would've stopped playing. But after the first year, I'm not sure. I would've been more conscious of the issues at hand. The disgusting business practice. The fact that NCSoft could've just lied their way through business. But I had no idea... A lot of us had no idea.

The same goes for others I knew. We pretty much just stopped and had to ask ourselves if we'd have had the courage to speak up and do something that we sincerely thought was wrong. How would we have reacted if Tabula Rasa players invaded CoH, telling us how sub-par the game is, and how badly they wanted their old one back? Sure, we agreed it blows, but we never cared for the game, we're not affected, so why do we care?

I think Jaguar is right on this. I believe I would've contentedly continued to play City of Heroes until the inevitable hit us, only to finally go... "Hey wait a minute!", but years too late.

That's the key here, now. Nobody feels threatened. At the very most, there's idle and inactive pity towards the people that were affected, and that's it.

Kick, scream, complain, and shout. Not many will listen because our words eventually become blurred. And that's the real problem. Getting people to listen, not just the companies out screwing people.

Try to think. What would a Tabula Rasa player needed to have told you about NCSoft 3 years ago, to convince you to take a more active role in protest? Whether it was to stop playing CoH or something else?

[Nightwatch]

Great post MakoMako.

Much as I dislike NCsoft, this is no longer about my hate toward that company.  It should be, and is, about how to create something else that can fill the gap left by the loss of CoX.

I've no particular skills that can assist but I and all of us should be right behind the efforts to create a spiritual successor to CoX.

[JaguarX]

Try to think. What would a Tabula Rasa player needed to have told you about NCSoft 3 years ago, to convince you to take a more active role in protest? Whether it was to stop playing CoH or something else?

exactly.

[AlabasterKnight]

Much as I dislike NCsoft, this is no longer about my hate toward that company.

Or any company. (Not personally attacking your comment, this just seemed a good place to say this...)

One common thing I've seen in many of these threads is the distrust for some 'corporate' bogeymen, namely NCSoft.

It takes people of the same organization, resources, and drive to achieve a mission, with focus, alignment and accountability to reach production of a product.

That is what a company is in theory. If you are constantly chafing against and guarding against someone having to make financial decisions to be accountable to their stockholders/supporters/investors/market share, then you've taken your eye off the ball.

How many resources over what period of time will bring us this new game?
Has anyone asked themselves what it really takes to develop assets?
Time, money, equipment, in addition to the theories of the company work ethics stated above. Sounds like a company may be in order...

How can we achieve quality?
How can we attempt to bring the cutting edge?
Is our IP imaginative and able to capture the market?
Do our stories compel a return?

If you want a game that looks like it was brought to you by a seventh grade arts class and if you want to wait ten years to see it, by all means, distrust 'corporations' and don't support companies.

Or
Maybe it's time to stop the hate speak on NCSoft and stop chain-linking that emotion to corporations, companies and the world of business.

I am not by any means defending NCSoft. It is clear to me that they lost my wallet and that of anyone I can tell the tale to and it may be more lucrative for them to simply stay on that side of the Pacific and to forget themselves how to look west past the Himalayas...
But back here, state side, we have a job to do.

Hanging out by Paragon Studio's grave and cursing for justice is just not getting anyone any closer. It's bad for business for our community to harbor that. We've got more important things to do, and the last thing a supporter with the financial means and good will wants to see is a bitter customer.

Back to the drawing board now.
Very Truly,

AlabasterKnight
Creative Director
The Phoenix Project

[downix]

Indeed Jim.

Do you think Bruce Wayne stuck to his parents grave for the rest of his life? No, he tapped that, and became Batman.

We must be Batman!

[dwturducken]

Hanging out by Paragon Studio's grave and cursing for justice is just not getting anyone any closer.

This sounds like a send-up of those Mel Gibson Roaring Rampage of Revenge movies as done by Funny or Die or Geek and Sundry. I know it's off-topic, but I couldn't not share.

[Taceus Jiwede]

I am loving the way this post is going!  I have nothing to add but I love the attitude.  The grave analogy was brilliant and I think sums it up great.  Also Batman!

[healix]

Holding hatred and anger is like swallowing poison, and expecting it to kill someone else....

[OzonePrime]

Indeed Jim.

Do you think Bruce Wayne stuck to his parents grave for the rest of his life? No, he tapped that, and became Batman.

We must be Batman!

The biggest reason Batman is my favorite hero! (Too bad these movies have given quite a different picture of him)

[Turjan]

The same goes for others I knew. We pretty much just stopped and had to ask ourselves if we'd have had the courage to speak up and do something that we sincerely thought was wrong. How would we have reacted if Tabula Rasa players invaded CoH, telling us how sub-par the game is, and how badly they wanted their old one back? Sure, we agreed it blows, but we never cared for the game, we're not affected, so why do we care?

I think Jaguar is right on this. I believe I would've contentedly continued to play City of Heroes until the inevitable hit us, only to finally go... "Hey wait a minute!", but years too late.

That's the key here, now. Nobody feels threatened. At the very most, there's idle and inactive pity towards the people that were affected, and that's it.

Evocative words indeed there Mako. They remind of a famous quote by pastor Martin Niemoller concerning how long it took the people in 1930s Germany to realise what was happening to their country :-

First they came for the communists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

    Then they came for the socialists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

    Then they came for me,
    and there was no one left to speak for me.

Now, obviously we're not facing jackbooted, uniformed thugs from NCsoft dragging people out of their beds at 3 in the morning (at least, not that I know of... *glances uneasily around*) but the psychology remains the same. Generally speaking, the majority of people are very slow to react to something that doesn't seem to concern them directly.

Our challenge as gamers is that games tend be like sports or musical tastes in that they very quickly - and very firmly - form cliques out of their participants in an almost tribal way. And it takes something pretty special to unite a bunch of tribes under the same banner, and then manage to keep them there long enough to win a war.

[MysticFortune]

Where'd I leave my copy of Guild Wars... I think it's time I smash it with a hammer...

[JaguarX]

First they came for the communists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

    Then they came for the socialists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

    Then they came for me,
    and there was no one left to speak for me.

I want to use that as a sig. but it might be too long. Yeah, in RL and games I seen this.


First they came for Auto Assault,
    and I didn't speak out because I didnt play Auto Assault.

    Then they came for Exteel,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasnt at home in Exteel.

    Then they came for the Tabula Rasa,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't part of Tabula Rasa.

    Then they came for COX,
    and there was no one left to speak for me.

[onyxprincess]

You're talking big...

My first MMO was GW1 9 years ago, expanded it with all the ExpandAlones but never got the EOTN Expansion Pack. And I still love to play it on occasion. 2 or so months ago I got GW2, nice game but it has a lot of WoW and RuneScape influence in it (Needing to know crafting your own armors, weapons and clothes). That changes the landscape- and makes me uninstall that title. I still play GW1 because of the simplicity of it.

As to City of Heroes Freedom, we need to do a Full Court Press to bring it back in maintenance mode... or if anyone can purchase some servers in their parts of the country, get NCSoft to sell the game to us for hosting in a regional style (Northeast, ect.) That could see if it brings the game back to life!

[FatherXmas]

You're talking big...

My first MMO was GW1 9 years ago, expanded it with all the ExpandAlones but never got the EOTN Expansion Pack. And I still love to play it on occasion. 2 or so months ago I got GW2, nice game but it has a lot of WoW and RuneScape influence in it (Needing to know crafting your own armors, weapons and clothes). That changes the landscape- and makes me uninstall that title. I still play GW1 because of the simplicity of it.

As to City of Heroes Freedom, we need to do a Full Court Press to bring it back in maintenance mode... or if anyone can purchase some servers in their parts of the country, get NCSoft to sell the game to us for hosting in a regional style (Northeast, ect.) That could see if it brings the game back to life!

Honestly I don't think I've ever crafted my own armor in GW2, costs too much.  Much easier to use drops or buy what you want off the player market, which is mainly drops.