CoH #1! ...as if we didn't already know...

[Knight Light]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_NwLnpko08

Well, it's fairly official. What every person on these boards if not the world already knew,

City of Heroes is far and above the greatest superhero MMORPG of all time.

...and NCSoft still cancelled it.

*claps as sarcastically as possible*

Great job, NCSoft.

Perhaps for your next trick you can start killing kittens.

[Quinch]

And CoH comments pretty much own the thumbs. Verra nice. Good article, too.

[Golden Ace]

And CoH comments pretty much own the thumbs. Verra nice. Good article, too.

agreed.

[Cobra Man]

That vid made me feel sad and proud at the same time.

I wish someone in a position of power at NCsoft would take the time to watch the video and realise exactly what it is they've done.

[Sajaana]

It might not be a bad idea to post that on NCsoft's Twitter feed or Facebook page...not necessarily with any commentary attached (like, "FU NCsoft, Save CoH!"), but just the link...with, perhaps, a simple line like "CoH voted #1 superhero MMO!"

[Quinch]

Huh. I do wonder how the "we need to bury this" and "hey, someone's praising us" conflict would play out.

[OzonePrime]

Posted on my FB page yesterday. Really lifts my spirits that we're still getting recognized (and exposed). City of Heroes is/was my favorite game. (I built my PC just so I could play it.)
Come on NCSoft, let go of the best MMO ever!
 

[LadyVamp]

Huh. I do wonder how the "we need to bury this" and "hey, someone's praising us" conflict would play out.

Since no one likes to admit they messed up, I suspect "we need to bury this" crowd will win no matter the cost their company.  Though I remain hopeful some adults at NCSoft will step up, just admit the mistake, and restart the game.  Or at least sell it for a reasonable price to someone who wants something to do with it.

[Sajaana]

Since no one likes to admit they messed up, I suspect "we need to bury this" crowd will win no matter the cost their company.  Though I remain hopeful some adults at NCSoft will step up, just admit the mistake, and restart the game.  Or at least sell it for a reasonable price to someone who wants something to do with it.

Honestly, when we are talking NCsoft, nobody has to admit they messed up.  Nobody has to admit a mistake.  They can still start it up, as if what happened last year never happened.  Nobody ever cared before when they changed their mind about things and, quite frankly, nobody here will really care what happened last year either, since we will be so happy to have CoH back.

The thing that always amazed me about NCsoft is how the past never influences their present.  It makes us exceedingly frustrated when, for example, they say "we are committed to Tabula Rasa for the long haul!," and then two months later say, "We regret to inform you we are sunsetting Tabula Rasa." We say things like, "but didn't you say you'd support the--" and they'll act as if they were saying, "--did we say that?  We didn't say that."

When it comes to NCsoft, what they say and do today never gets in the way of what will be said and done tomorrow.  So when they say in December that "the heroes of Paragon have taken to the skies for the last time" we can no more believe them than when they said "we are committed to the game long term" early last year.  At the time these things were said, it was true.  But just because it was true then doesn't make it true now.

From what I understand, they got what they wanted in this whole shutdown fiasco.  Why keep the #1 superhero game closed, when they already accomplished what they wanted to accomplish?

[Triplash]

Though I remain hopeful some adults at NCSoft will step up, just admit the mistake, and restart the game.

I don't think it's a question of maturity or responsibility. It's about losing credibility with their investors. Right now everyone that's disagreeing with their decision is outside the company, and those opinions can all be chalked up to "emotional outbursts" and "hating the big bad corporation". But the moment the company itself admits they made, not just a mistake, but a colossal and boneheaded mistake, it validates everything we've been saying. That would pretty much guarantee stockholders realizing that company is a poor investment, and result in the nearly instantaneous collapse of the company.

Basically, they probably wouldn't come back from admitting a call that bad. But there's a possibility that they could at least weather the storm of bad publicity if they stick to their guns without flinching.

[0nehanklap]

Unfortunately, this is also the reason they can't afford to sell/release the IP at any (reasonable) cost.  If it were to prove successful after their decision to close rather than advertise, executive heads would have to roll in order to protect the company from collapse.  Nobody in charge of that decision is going to risk it.

[Tubbius]

Got to say I agree with the rankings overall, though I'd likely put Marvel Heroes above DC Online, having played the former and watched the latter, but that's me. 

[Cobra Man]

Got to say I agree with the rankings overall, though I'd likely put Marvel Heroes above DC Online, having played the former and watched the latter, but that's me. 

Having tried out Marvel Heroes (MH) in Beta, I can only disagree.

I think I'd rather watch paint dry than play MH for a sustained period of time.

I'm not a fan of DCUO but it's miles better than MH.

[LadyVamp]

I don't think it's a question of maturity or responsibility. It's about losing credibility with their investors. Right now everyone that's disagreeing with their decision is outside the company, and those opinions can all be chalked up to "emotional outbursts" and "hating the big bad corporation". But the moment the company itself admits they made, not just a mistake, but a colossal and boneheaded mistake, it validates everything we've been saying. That would pretty much guarantee stockholders realizing that company is a poor investment, and result in the nearly instantaneous collapse of the company.

Basically, they probably wouldn't come back from admitting a call that bad. But there's a possibility that they could at least weather the storm of bad publicity if they stick to their guns without flinching.

I agree it is very unlikely they will put the game back up or sell the code.  Both actions would imply a screw up on their part.  They've committed themselves to a course of action and will stay the course no matter what.

[LadyVamp]

Honestly, when we are talking NCsoft, nobody has to admit they messed up.  Nobody has to admit a mistake.  They can still start it up, as if what happened last year never happened.  Nobody ever cared before when they changed their mind about things and, quite frankly, nobody here will really care what happened last year either, since we will be so happy to have CoH back.

Putting the game back in service or selling the code (or licensing it) alone implies admitting mistake.  They know that.  They're committed to a course of action and really can't change direction.  Their only way out is to take that April fool's joke of so many years ago they pulled on us and make it happen.  For those who don't know/remember, NCSoft took out a trademark on CoH2 and announced during April fool's day that they were making CoH2.  This was many years ago early in coh's issues.

[Sajaana]

Putting the game back in service or selling the code (or licensing it) alone implies admitting mistake.

Not really.  If you look at what they did, this wasn't about closing down City of Heroes at all.

They didn't want to close down the game.  They wanted to close down the studio.  There's no mistake they'd have to admit to if they decide to move on the game at this point, because their aim (severing their relationship to Paragon) has already been accomplished.

[Stormsurge]

Like it or not, the ball is still in NCSoft's court. And if they decided to reopen the game, I'm sure there would be tons of people flocking back to them and sure, I'd be back there on day one. But they would be hard pressed to gain back the trust they lost in us as a community when they decided to constantly tell lies instead of either a) not releasing any information or b) just tell the damn truth. It's very hard to think about giving them money when they have shown how badly they treat their customers.

As for that list:

A) Unreleased games should not be on a top 10 list.
B) DC Online is the suckitude of suckiness. And it's #2.
C) By comparison, It doesn't really matter which order those others go in, because if COH wasn't #1, that whole video would have been a travesty.

[dwturducken]

OK, looking at their site as a whole, I think the decision to do this was an editorial one. The "Top Ten List" (sorry, Dave) is a weekly video piece. Maybe someone decided that they needed to say something about the closure (a search of "city of heroes" within their site turns up only one article), or maybe it was just because they realized they hadn't been talking about the genre much. I can almost guarantee, the meeting where this topic was announced/decided on had some "oh, pancake" reactions.

One thing about City of Heroes, aside from all the stuff we've lamented and praised, was that it didn't suck. It wasn't a fighting game. It didn't force us to play a certain character (usually licensed). It wasn't some hastily assembled, steaming pile intended to cash in on some other market's fad (like a movie tie-in). And, most of all, it was stunning. No game in the super hero genre had done any of that, never mind that you also could now play with your friends, even make new ones. Why shouldn't it be on the top of the list? Why shouldn't it be the standard by which all games, spandex or not, are measured?

The problem is, to put it at the top of a list, you have to fill the rest of the list. I don't dispute the order of the list, once I get past my confusion that some of the games are even on the list. But, it, like most of the rest of the videos in the series, is a fluff piece. Ranking lists are always going to favor one bias or another, but, ultimately, they only serve as fodder for internet arguments. One thing that it does for us, though, is provide one more arrow in our quiver for our fight to keep buzz going for the game.

Also, the tenor of discussion around this list is very different on the CO forum. I haven't bothered with the DCUO forum, but I will be checking the MH forum, at least out of morbid curiosity.

[Triplash]

I agree it is very unlikely they will put the game back up or sell the code.  Both actions would imply a screw up on their part.  They've committed themselves to a course of action and will stay the course no matter what.

Honestly, I do think there's one way they could turn it around and look, if not good, at least not bad for it. It's not the most blueside thought I've ever had so I'm not going to wish for it, but I wouldn't lose any sleep if it happened.

Basically if there were one particular person who had made the call to shut City down, or spun the situation so that shutdown looked like the right call, that person could leave or be let go. Then the company could point to them and say "See? The person who made that terrible decision is gone now! What do you say we give it another shot, guys? Show of hands... who's in?"

Obviously I'd never want an innocent person to get canned that way. But anyone who really did make such a bad call would deserve to at least be demoted out of a decision-making position. I think that would cancel out the "no takebacks" policy well enough, without anyone losing respectability.

If that did happen, plus they agreed to provide some form of private or offline alternative in the event of another shutdown, I'd go back to the game even under NCsoft.

[Triplash]

Not really.  If you look at what they did, this wasn't about closing down City of Heroes at all.

They didn't want to close down the game.  They wanted to close down the studio.  There's no mistake they'd have to admit to if they decide to move on the game at this point, because their aim (severing their relationship to Paragon) has already been accomplished.

Yeah, sadly it does seem like that was their true goal. They did say their reasoning was that Paragon Studios was losing money. The thing is though, we now know that City of Heroes was bringing in plenty enough to pay for its own costs plus running the studio. The only drains on resources were the side projects that NCsoft approved (only after, by the way, denying every possible upgrade that would have actually improved the game's potential to earn). Yet they didn't cut those other projects, just like they didn't slow down the pace of development or reduce staff to a skeleton crew. Basically they didn't do a single thing to attempt to rectify what they said was the problem.

And then there's the fact that there were a number of ways they could have kept the game running without requiring the studio. They could have put it into maintenance mode. They could have established a new studio. They could have kept an income stream that had next to no costs associated with it. But they didn't do that either. They just went straight to ending it.

So if the studio was really the target and not the game, that would just seem to make it more of a case of deliberate intent, as opposed to reacting to an unforeseen problem. And that could make them look very much worse than a mistake would. Because showing pre-planned hostility like that toward the people making one of your games, makes you look very, very untrustworthy to the people making your other games. Not to mention the people playing those games.


We've said it before, and it's still true now. If we want the original game back we need to find a way to make them look good for passing it to somebody else. Better than the bad they look for canceling it in the first place.

[Quinch]

We've said it before, and it's still true now. If we want the original game back we need to find a way to make them look good for passing it to somebody else. Better than the bad they look for canceling it in the first place.

I cannot emphasize this enough. As PO'd as we are, there's no way CoH is going to live again unless we can appeal to their own self-interest.

[Captain Electric]

I cannot emphasize this enough. As PO'd as we are, there's no way CoH is going to live again unless we can appeal to their own self-interest.

Quinch, the problem with that is, there's only about 20 or 30 of us left who are checking in, keeping up with the situation and actively showing a willingness to chip in however we'd be able to. Most of those people, based on their posting habits, I wouldn't imagine they would ever grovel for NCSoft's favor or step near any plan like that with a ten foot pole (or even a hundred foot pole).

You don't know me from Adam, but anyone who does, they could tell you that I've been a supremely annoying optimist here and elsewhere, unwilling to see or listen to any idea that doesn't include a reason to keep going. I just want to get that out of the way before my tone turns a little grimmer below. Please listen to me and don't confuse me for some wimpy naysayer.

Our "perfect storm" has passed.
A few weeks ago, we had a big surge in eyeballs and interest return to these forums and elsewhere over Jack's "Call me" remark, and then a couple of weeks ago, Gamasutra's candid interview with Matt kept the steam going at an uptick. At seven months since the closure's first announcement, this represented an amazing, probably unprecedented amount of interest in a closed-down MMO. Some people thought Gamasutra's timing was more than just a wonderful coincidence. Regardless, in my "Perfect Storm" thread I referred to that gift of circumstances as possibly our last burst of ammunition and I had good reasons for doing so. I figured we'd have about a week to show all those eyeballs how we were going to focus their energy into one last, big vocal campaign. I was right, and now we're back to the same few voices around here. Dedicated fans of the game, ready to chip in at a moment's notice, but for most of us, without the resources and industry or press contacts to make something big happen. Some of our most influential voices seem to be moving on from the fight, including Tony, based on the frequency and tone of his posts.

I'm not saying it's time to quit. There's only one person fit to make that decision, and that'll be the last man or woman standing. But if we want to keep on fighting, then we need to accept a few realities, just for the sake of having (and most importantly, adapting to) a sound strategy.

Smaller army, tighter objectives.
Let's just get the first big issue, the taboo one, out of the way. For anyone who is still here and has some fight left in 'em, the reality is that as time drags on, as usable ammunition runs dry, we risk fighting more for principle, less for victory, unless our strategies change significantly (and maybe even then). There's a difference; and that difference is so big that most people have already become demoralized by it and moved on. This has always been a long shot, but when there's 20 or 30 active people, that's not an army. Big Calls to Action, like mail-in campaigns, require a massive amount of participants in order to be noteworthy in the press or to a publisher. That's what I'm talking about when I suggest adapting. Our army's size and configuration has changed, and so too must every idea we generate for solving our problem.

An ad campaign might still be a good idea, but again, there's a reason why I titled my big post on the subject "We're in a perfect storm. We need an advertising campaign now, this week, today." Well, that was almost two weeks ago, an eternity considering how quickly most people will lose interest in a cause which doesn't seem to need anything from them, and we're still discussing possibilities for banner art. I'm not knocking the great ideas I've seen, but I have a feeling this is going to be a little like showing up late to a party which wrapped up several hours ago. If we were going to effectively organize and show NCSoft and Jack how much we want that call to be made, we would have already done it. We didn't. Whether or not that call ever gets made is up to other factors now.

No more illusions--are ads the best way? Brainstorm.
We can still go ahead with the campaign, but there may only be a handful of us to dig deep and pay for it, and its purpose may need a more general (less timely) bent to it. Maybe that would turn out alright, and maybe it wouldn't. At this point I'm leaning toward "it wouldn't", and I think we risk souring people on throwing their money at this cause into infinity. If you're wondering why my mind changed after only two weeks, I'd only like to ask why yours hasn't. No "army" with a disadvantage can afford to "stay the course no matter what". NCSoft is clearly the immovable rock in this situation, and so we ought to be as fluid and adaptable (and as weathering) as water.

We may want to consider whether some other monetarily supported strategy would be worth more bang for what little buck is left. Any kickstarter-style website that would allow donations toward the mere possibility of purchasing the IP might help us to gain enough interest from the press (and therefore a renewal of player interest, which always follows) to help us approach some other publisher to match our donations and then some (emphasis on "and then some"). The popular Kickstarter.com would not allow this, but maybe some other site would.

Conversely, maybe we ought to consider shelving any mobilization efforts outside of Hail Mary, and waiting for some opportunity to present itself in the future. One problem that I'm sure you're aware of Quinch, is that the City of Heroes IP is a valuable asset in NCSoft's portfolio (not was). Publishers who deal in the business of creative properties are measured in worth by the properties they own. Sounds kind of "duh" when I say it like that, right? It doesn't matter whether they're sitting on it or profiting from it in the current moment (or ever). It represents an asset which adds to their worth. If they sold it, they'd be selling off something which--I mean, look at all the noise and controversy over it. We've helped add value to the property. We like to say that shareholders ought to be shaking their heads at NCSoft for not selling the IP, but the opposite would more likely be the case if they did sell it now (or any time remotely close to now).

On the other hand, how hard do you think it would be to buy the Earth and Beyond IP from EA by comparison? Not saying you could buy it with the money in your wallet, but a publisher who wanted it bad enough (for some strange reason) might be able to talk 'em out of it. We may want to consider waiting until such a time comes when NCSoft would wonder why anyone would want to buy the City of Heroes IP.

Those are a couple of ideas off the top of my head. The point I'm reaching is, if we want to win, then we want our discussions to be more zoomed-out, bigger picture, top-down at ALL the options and possibilities before us. The Save City of Heroes! sub-forum ought to be full of zany, stupid, and smart threads for ideas about what we should be doing or thinking of doing.

Save ourselves first, CoH second.
Personally, however, I hope the "togetherness" of the community can shift away from primarily "SaveCOH", and toward something in addition, something that does not have at its core a sense of loss and stress. I don't know what Tony and his team have in store for the Titan Network. But the main talk of the day here, every day, is provably not enough fun to keep people comin' around. If there's no one left to save City of Heroes, it will only be sheer coincidental luck that has any chance to bring it back someday. (And be careful what you wish for if it's NCSoft's vision of a sequel.)

[Stormsurge]

We've said it before, and it's still true now. If we want the original game back we need to find a way to make them look good for passing it to somebody else. Better than the bad they look for canceling it in the first place.

How can we make them look good, when they do such a great job of making themselves look bad?

[Segev]

Save ourselves first, CoH second.
Personally, however, I hope the "togetherness" of the community can shift away from primarily "SaveCOH", and toward something in addition, something that does not have at its core a sense of loss and stress. I don't know what Tony and his team have in store for the Titan Network. But the main talk of the day here, every day, is provably not enough fun to keep people comin' around. If there's no one left to save City of Heroes, it will only be sheer coincidental luck that has any chance to bring it back someday. (And be careful what you wish for if it's NCSoft's vision of a sequel.)

This is a key point. We need to organize, not just one, but   many local groups - fan clubs, if you will - which meet regularly to talk about comics and comic-based MMOs, to plan fun events, to plan group trips to conventions, costume contests, charity efforts, even such things as camp-outs or bowling nights or whatnot.

They should keep in touch, and maybe form fraternal relationships, or organize at a higher level to be chapters of a broader club.

But to do this, we need people interested in and with the energy to pull such groups together. To put out calls for regional gatherings that are convenient. Exchange contact info and find out who lives close by you that's interested in these efforts, and just get together in a small group for dinner at a restaurant or to make a group trip to see Iron Man 3 when it comes out.

Gather and organize regular meetings, plan events, and give yourselves something positive to group around. Then be ready to support whatever efforts you deem worthy.

[Triplash]

How can we make them look good, when they do such a great job of making themselves look bad?

They really do, don't they? But if getting back the former City of Heroes game is the outcome we want, then we have to find a way. We're the ones who want it, so the burden is on us to discover the path and put in the effort.

There is another option though. As Captain and the others have been saying, we could quit dwelling on it non-stop. When an opportunity presents itself, we jump on it with full force. But until then we have to preserve what fight we have left. I don't know about you guys, but this thing where I check in here every day and talk to sad people about sad things... that's getting seriously stale. We really do need to find something else to do with our time. Something positive. So when an opportunity does comes along, we have strength left to give to it. Strength and numbers... let's bring some more people back. Heck, let's bring some new people in too. Let's get this place buzzing again. Let's fill the place up with fun people talking about fun things... nerdy people talking about nerdy things... goofy people talking about goofy things.

Don't worry if you can't think of anything right away. The ideas will come. Thank someone, encourage someone. Tell us about that cool thing you did or poke some fun at a cheesy movie you watched. Just find a thread and say something positive. Start with once a week if it's all you can manage. Then try twice a week. Then every other day.

*wags his finger* Don't make me have to nominate May 1st as "Cheer The Pancake Up Day". Cause I'll do it.

[JaguarX]

I cannot emphasize this enough. As PO'd as we are, there's no way CoH is going to live again unless we can appeal to their own self-interest.

basically.

if we cant do that, we have to do what we have to do to get the replacement or what ever other activity rolling.

[Segev]

I'd like to again encourage people to think of fun things they like in superheroes, comic books, superhero movies, or even charitable actionable causes (e.g. helping with a relief effort, bringing meals to families going through hardship, helping out at your local church or soup kitchen), and find out who lives within driving distance of each other.

Get together to play, have fun, go catch (as a group) Iron Man 3 or Man of Steel when they come out. Cosplay together. Write fan comics about your supers from CoH forming a supergroup in your local area.

But meet each other in person and talk about things that are coming that excite you, and find good things to do for other people that make you feel like heroes.

[JaguarX]

Quinch, the problem with that is, there's only about 20 or 30 of us left who are checking in, keeping up with the situation and actively showing a willingness to chip in however we'd be able to. Most of those people, based on their posting habits, I wouldn't imagine they would ever grovel for NCSoft's favor or step near any plan like that with a ten foot pole (or even a hundred foot pole).

You don't know me from Adam, but anyone who does, they could tell you that I've been a supremely annoying optimist here and elsewhere, unwilling to see or listen to any idea that doesn't include a reason to keep going. I just want to get that out of the way before my tone turns a little grimmer below. Please listen to me and don't confuse me for some wimpy naysayer.

Our "perfect storm" has passed.
A few weeks ago, we had a big surge in eyeballs and interest return to these forums and elsewhere over Jack's "Call me" remark, and then a couple of weeks ago, Gamasutra's candid interview with Matt kept the steam going at an uptick. At seven months since the closure's first announcement, this represented an amazing, probably unprecedented amount of interest in a closed-down MMO. Some people thought Gamasutra's timing was more than just a wonderful coincidence. Regardless, in my "Perfect Storm" thread I referred to that gift of circumstances as possibly our last burst of ammunition and I had good reasons for doing so. I figured we'd have about a week to show all those eyeballs how we were going to focus their energy into one last, big vocal campaign. I was right, and now we're back to the same few voices around here. Dedicated fans of the game, ready to chip in at a moment's notice, but for most of us, without the resources and industry or press contacts to make something big happen. Some of our most influential voices seem to be moving on from the fight, including Tony, based on the frequency and tone of his posts.

I'm not saying it's time to quit. There's only one person fit to make that decision, and that'll be the last man or woman standing. But if we want to keep on fighting, then we need to accept a few realities, just for the sake of having (and most importantly, adapting to) a sound strategy.

Smaller army, tighter objectives.
Let's just get the first big issue, the taboo one, out of the way. For anyone who is still here and has some fight left in 'em, the reality is that as time drags on, as usable ammunition runs dry, we risk fighting more for principle, less for victory, unless our strategies change significantly (and maybe even then). There's a difference; and that difference is so big that most people have already become demoralized by it and moved on. This has always been a long shot, but when there's 20 or 30 active people, that's not an army. Big Calls to Action, like mail-in campaigns, require a massive amount of participants in order to be noteworthy in the press or to a publisher. That's what I'm talking about when I suggest adapting. Our army's size and configuration has changed, and so too must every idea we generate for solving our problem.

An ad campaign might still be a good idea, but again, there's a reason why I titled my big post on the subject "We're in a perfect storm. We need an advertising campaign now, this week, today." Well, that was almost two weeks ago, an eternity considering how quickly most people will lose interest in a cause which doesn't seem to need anything from them, and we're still discussing possibilities for banner art. I'm not knocking the great ideas I've seen, but I have a feeling this is going to be a little like showing up late to a party which wrapped up several hours ago. If we were going to effectively organize and show NCSoft and Jack how much we want that call to be made, we would have already done it. We didn't. Whether or not that call ever gets made is up to other factors now.

No more illusions--are ads the best way? Brainstorm.
We can still go ahead with the campaign, but there may only be a handful of us to dig deep and pay for it, and its purpose may need a more general (less timely) bent to it. Maybe that would turn out alright, and maybe it wouldn't. At this point I'm leaning toward "it wouldn't", and I think we risk souring people on throwing their money at this cause into infinity. If you're wondering why my mind changed after only two weeks, I'd only like to ask why yours hasn't. No "army" with a disadvantage can afford to "stay the course no matter what". NCSoft is clearly the immovable rock in this situation, and so we ought to be as fluid and adaptable (and as weathering) as water.

We may want to consider whether some other monetarily supported strategy would be worth more bang for what little buck is left. Any kickstarter-style website that would allow donations toward the mere possibility of purchasing the IP might help us to gain enough interest from the press (and therefore a renewal of player interest, which always follows) to help us approach some other publisher to match our donations and then some (emphasis on "and then some"). The popular Kickstarter.com would not allow this, but maybe some other site would.

Conversely, maybe we ought to consider shelving any mobilization efforts outside of Hail Mary, and waiting for some opportunity to present itself in the future. One problem that I'm sure you're aware of Quinch, is that the City of Heroes IP is a valuable asset in NCSoft's portfolio (not was). Publishers who deal in the business of creative properties are measured in worth by the properties they own. Sounds kind of "duh" when I say it like that, right? It doesn't matter whether they're sitting on it or profiting from it in the current moment (or ever). It represents an asset which adds to their worth. If they sold it, they'd be selling off something which--I mean, look at all the noise and controversy over it. We've helped add value to the property. We like to say that shareholders ought to be shaking their heads at NCSoft for not selling the IP, but the opposite would more likely be the case if they did sell it now (or any time remotely close to now).

On the other hand, how hard do you think it would be to buy the Earth and Beyond IP from EA by comparison? Not saying you could buy it with the money in your wallet, but a publisher who wanted it bad enough (for some strange reason) might be able to talk 'em out of it. We may want to consider waiting until such a time comes when NCSoft would wonder why anyone would want to buy the City of Heroes IP.

Those are a couple of ideas off the top of my head. The point I'm reaching is, if we want to win, then we want our discussions to be more zoomed-out, bigger picture, top-down at ALL the options and possibilities before us. The Save City of Heroes! sub-forum ought to be full of zany, stupid, and smart threads for ideas about what we should be doing or thinking of doing.

Save ourselves first, CoH second.
Personally, however, I hope the "togetherness" of the community can shift away from primarily "SaveCOH", and toward something in addition, something that does not have at its core a sense of loss and stress. I don't know what Tony and his team have in store for the Titan Network. But the main talk of the day here, every day, is provably not enough fun to keep people comin' around. If there's no one left to save City of Heroes, it will only be sheer coincidental luck that has any chance to bring it back someday. (And be careful what you wish for if it's NCSoft's vision of a sequel.)

Yeah Capt. I know you been one of the biggest non famous supporter of this SaveCOH and the COX game since day one that I seen you on the forums of the old even before the announcement and even more so after. ANd I agree with what you are saying

While I been tossing out ideas and trying to avoid being "negative" to not hurt morale, at some point in time, though, there have to be a step back and look at the actual reality and NOT fear that reality of the situation.

Now I know then, people was hurting and fresh from the news, but I think in the long run it might have hurt us a bit because it kind of turned off a portion of the community, and many of them had no other place to rally around and then many just gave up who otherwise would have stuck around and might have been invaluable but felt their grounded view at the time wasnt wanted or welcomed.  NO I'm not talking about the ones that hate TItans guts. Probably cant onvince them to join. I'm talking about the ones that dont hate us, but dont want to join us due to their view that it's all about hope and not reality and didnt want to cause problems so they never even bothered to check us out and realize we are something more. Remember the most extreme and outspoken of any movement is the one that is easily viewed by the public. Hell, even on the old forum, many people dont even remember me there. But I bet people remember people like Arcana, Golden Girl, Evil_Legacy, Another Fan, TonyV, Capt. E. here, and some of the more outspoken people good and bad.

But yeah it do seem that it's only about 20-30 people that even post on a regular basis granted though some had real life issues and I think a few lost jobs and probably focused on that at the moment. But one thing my friend in real life but virtual enemy nutcase said that did get me thinking is that, the community goes beyond Titan. She may or may not meant that in a nice manner but still, she have a point I think. I think we should do more to reach out the the community members that are more moderate and may not hate ncsoft yet with a passion. Of course we are mostly moderate here but do people that have not visited here or been to the website know that?

Think about the people that speak about us on other websites. That is the kind of information the rest of the people have to go by, true or not, and we know that negative images stick way easier than positive ones. And even if they visited this website, do it portray the opposite of what brought them here or confirms it? Depends on what they are looking for and to be honest they could find both. Nothing much we can do about that.


The main point through all the rambling is this. We have to stop seriously stop with this division, and no it's not all the fault of Titan and people here but being the largest and maybe the only organizational thing where ex coxers have community, it should be portrayed as the community is welcomed here, the people that hated the game closed but not so angry at ncsoft for it, the ones that may not care too much yet, the fenceline people, the people that want to do something but depend more on reality and strategy, ones that want to have fun, and to tell you the truth as much as grieving is understood, it's still no fun to be around, especially as people stop grieving it puts them in awkwards situation when surrounded by those that are still grieving so many just exit quietly and never bother to look back. Then you have people that may not care the game is closed but itching to try a new game, some may never heard of COX nor know the plight of the closing but been in a game that ncsoft closed but have no place to go. Then you have people who may not care or "understand" the closing but want to help build a new game. Really dont take this the wrong way or anything, no one please, as I dont mean it as such. The air in here do seem to only welcome people that are grieving, angry at NCsoft or have hope and if a person dont fit into those three or combined, there will be tension and they MIGHT be tolerated but ot treated as equal. Outside looking in, that is the perception I'm getting from the reactions by many towards some people when it dont include hate towards ncsoft, being angry, or greiving. And as long as I been here, I'm a pretty patient person and can get along with anyone well including probably the Devil himself, really, being surrounded by angry greiving people is no fun to many people. And most isnt goign to come here and straight out and say that. NAd I'm saying stop hoping, but I think we can be hopeful and more open in perceptions at the same time believe it or not. Some things require the perception of pure cold hard reality. Other need a little hope to keep the morale.

ANother ramble follow. Not much to do with the main poitn but something on my heart.

I remember the old community. We had our potty mouth PvPers, we had our helpful people, we had our resident doom sayers, we had people that was shy, we had aggressive in your face people, we had people with strange look on life, we had dreamers, we had doers, we had people that did nothing at all, we had drive by shooters (good and bad), we had people who were experts at builds, we had noobs, we had newbs, we had people who were beasts on a computer, we had people that were barely could turn on a computer and made people wonder how did they manage to get online in the first place, we had Star trek experts we had star wars experts we had people who didnt give a hoot about neither and we had gossip experts and I think we even had an ex-Amish guy, A community.

Even if we do manage to get COX back or build the new game, it wont be the same without those people, yes even the crazy ones. I mean I like you guys and dont mind playing a game with ya'll but are we building a game for the the community or a play ground for Titan Network members where by definition anyone can walk in but not all are actually welcomed. Of course, there are extreme cases that do more harm than good and might have to be excluded but in general.

[Tanklet]

There's so much of this I agree with ... where to even start ...

Our "perfect storm" has passed.
A few weeks ago, we had a big surge in eyeballs and interest return to these forums and elsewhere over Jack's "Call me" remark, and then a couple of weeks ago, Gamasutra's candid interview with Matt kept the steam going at an uptick. At seven months since the closure's first announcement, this represented an amazing, probably unprecedented amount of interest in a closed-down MMO. Some people thought Gamasutra's timing was more than just a wonderful coincidence. Regardless, in my "Perfect Storm" thread I referred to that gift of circumstances as possibly our last burst of ammunition and I had good reasons for doing so. I figured we'd have about a week to show all those eyeballs how we were going to focus their energy into one last, big vocal campaign. I was right, and now we're back to the same few voices around here. Dedicated fans of the game, ready to chip in at a moment's notice, but for most of us, without the resources and industry or press contacts to make something big happen. Some of our most influential voices seem to be moving on from the fight, including Tony, based on the frequency and tone of his posts.

I'm not saying it's time to quit. There's only one person fit to make that decision, and that'll be the last man or woman standing. But if we want to keep on fighting, then we need to accept a few realities, just for the sake of having (and most importantly, adapting to) a sound strategy.

I agree, and felt this way too. I'd been hoping (and still do hope, though it's waning) that the banners would go up, and we'd have been supporting them for 2 weeks now. I think a lot of it really came down to too many chiefs, or no 1 chief. There was never consensus. There still isn't.

I'd offered to help on designs & asked for where I could find to purchase ads on my own, because of this very reason. Heard nothing. And, like you, I too feel the perfect storm has passed. If not passed entirely, it's trailing remnants are wafting away...

Smaller army, tighter objectives.
Let's just get the first big issue, the taboo one, out of the way. For anyone who is still here and has some fight left in 'em, the reality is that as time drags on, as usable ammunition runs dry, we risk fighting more for principle, less for victory, unless our strategies change significantly (and maybe even then). There's a difference; and that difference is so big that most people have already become demoralized by it and moved on. This has always been a long shot, but when there's 20 or 30 active people, that's not an army. Big Calls to Action, like mail-in campaigns, require a massive amount of participants in order to be noteworthy in the press or to a publisher. That's what I'm talking about when I suggest adapting. Our army's size and configuration has changed, and so too must every idea we generate for solving our problem.

An ad campaign might still be a good idea, but again, there's a reason why I titled my big post on the subject "We're in a perfect storm. We need an advertising campaign now, this week, today." Well, that was almost two weeks ago, an eternity considering how quickly most people will lose interest in a cause which doesn't seem to need anything from them, and we're still discussing possibilities for banner art. I'm not knocking the great ideas I've seen, but I have a feeling this is going to be a little like showing up late to a party which wrapped up several hours ago. If we were going to effectively organize and show NCSoft and Jack how much we want that call to be made, we would have already done it. We didn't. Whether or not that call ever gets made is up to other factors now.

*nod* even my frequency in checking on Hail Mary & Banners Etc has dwindled. Sure, 20-30 people can make some noise that might start getting attention ... but after so long in there being nothing to mobilize behind, it just feels like opportunities passing by and I dunno about anyone else, but I feel drained along with it...

Save ourselves first, CoH second.
Personally, however, I hope the "togetherness" of the community can shift away from primarily "SaveCOH", and toward something in addition, something that does not have at its core a sense of loss and stress. I don't know what Tony and his team have in store for the Titan Network. But the main talk of the day here, every day, is provably not enough fun to keep people comin' around. If there's no one left to save City of Heroes, it will only be sheer coincidental luck that has any chance to bring it back someday. (And be careful what you wish for if it's NCSoft's vision of a sequel.)

One of the things that always energized me was RP. Just collaboratively writing stories with other players ... I can't describe the feeling  of wonderfulness I had. Since the closure, I'd been trying to get involved & stay connected in doing that. But it seems with the loss of City, everything of that venue disappeared. What I wouldn't give for the chance to connect with someone again, face  to face, through writing, whatever the case may be. When I was a part of City, I felt needed. ... I don't feel that anymore... I really do feel alone, and I think it's my unwillingness to accept that, that has me holding on. If I finally do let go ... I doubt I'll look back. And in remembering what I had .. well I'm just not sure how to accept that maybe without City I am alone.


Anyway, I'm rambling here too. tl;dr ... you've hit some very valid points...

[Taceus Jiwede]

Even if we do manage to get COX back or build the new game, it wont be the same without those people, yes even the crazy ones. I mean I like you guys and dont mind playing a game with ya'll but are we building a game for the the community or a play ground for Titan Network members where by definition anyone can walk in but not all are actually welcomed

This is a good point.  CoH which I believe someday still will come back won't be the same.  That doesn't mean it will be bad just different.  There will be somewhat of a new community and most likely a somewhat new Dev team.  It may look the same and play the same but things will be different.  While I loved the old community and style of CoH.  That went away the day it closed down.  What come next could be better or worse but it certainly won't be the same.  Also, there may fewer and fewer people doing what they can to help bring back CoH but there are a lot of people out there would probably still love to see the game come back and would even support it coming back.  They just aren't here now and they have that right to pick and choose the fights they will come across in life.  And I hate to say it but all the things we do in the world while reminding NCSoft we are still here don't always work towards the actual goal which is getting the giant NCSoft to release it's firm grip on the IP.  While I believe there is SOMETHING that can be done to convince NCSoft into selling the game not everyone will hop on every shot in the dark.  I would contribute to the banners and when they get rolling I will.  However for the "Call Jack" idea I just didn't think it was the path that would work for me.  It wasn't a battle I wanted to take part in because I didn't believe Jack was serious, later being confirmed on the PWE board that he made a knee jerk comment.  That may not mean he isn't interested at all and it was good to have  big name developer on our side but it doesn't seem like he is going out of his way to purchase the game or have any particular plans to do so.

[JaguarX]

This is a good point.  CoH which I believe someday still will come back won't be the same.  That doesn't mean it will be bad just different.  There will be somewhat of a new community and most likely a somewhat new Dev team.  It may look the same and play the same but things will be different.  While I loved the old community and style of CoH.  That went away the day it closed down.  What come next could be better or worse but it certainly won't be the same.  Also, there may fewer and fewer people doing what they can to help bring back CoH but there are a lot of people out there would probably still love to see the game come back and would even support it coming back.  They just aren't here now and they have that right to pick and choose the fights they will come across in life.  And I hate to say it but all the things we do in the world while reminding NCSoft we are still here don't always work towards the actual goal which is getting the giant NCSoft to release it's firm grip on the IP.  While I believe there is SOMETHING that can be done to convince NCSoft into selling the game not everyone will hop on every shot in the dark.  I would contribute to the banners and when they get rolling I will.  However for the "Call Jack" idea I just didn't think it was the path that would work for me.  It wasn't a battle I wanted to take part in because I didn't believe Jack was serious, later being confirmed on the PWE board that he made a knee jerk comment.  That may not mean he isn't interested at all and it was good to have  big name developer on our side but it doesn't seem like he is going out of his way to purchase the game or have any particular plans to do so.

yup

[MakoMako]

Our "perfect storm" has passed.
A few weeks ago, we had a big surge in eyeballs and interest return to these forums and elsewhere over Jack's "Call me" remark, and then a couple of weeks ago, Gamasutra's candid interview with Matt kept the steam going at an uptick. At seven months since the closure's first announcement, this represented an amazing, probably unprecedented amount of interest in a closed-down MMO. Some people thought Gamasutra's timing was more than just a wonderful coincidence. Regardless, in my "Perfect Storm" thread I referred to that gift of circumstances as possibly our last burst of ammunition and I had good reasons for doing so. I figured we'd have about a week to show all those eyeballs how we were going to focus their energy into one last, big vocal campaign. I was right, and now we're back to the same few voices around here. Dedicated fans of the game, ready to chip in at a moment's notice, but for most of us, without the resources and industry or press contacts to make something big happen. Some of our most influential voices seem to be moving on from the fight, including Tony, based on the frequency and tone of his posts

This is something I've noticed, big time, from all our big players.

I've come into this forum every day. I've sent my letters. My e-mails. I even did a favor to other forum members and sent letters in their name. Every time a new thing comes up, I make certain to read up and if I'm capable, I partake.

I work a military job in the reserve, and a full time civilian job. I have plenty of my own set of issues in life and I'm still active here, waiting and hoping; in spite of being one of the more silent ones.

In the recent months we've all been hit hard with our personal lives. NCSoft employees have a job to work against things like this, while we're sacrificing actual personal time. Nobody likes having to do this, and this is why some have given up hope. People are giving up, getting upset that others haven't, and those that haven't given up are getting upset that many others are leaving. It's driving a wedge in our community.

Among the people I knew in the beginning that fought the ending of CoH, the majority of which all have one thing in common. They want CoH to come back and will rally behind any realistic plan, but they've all long since come to terms with the fact it's gone and are only depressed to come to a forum where it feels like the efforts are dead.

We've got powerful allies in this... And I'm getting very worried that people like Tony, Rae, and Mercedes seem to be working too much behind the scenes. We need something... Anything. Even if it's not an actual goal oriented venture. Attendees are dropping very low.

I think all I'm asking for is our big players, the ones performing the movement of appealing to Google and otherwise, show some more presence. I'm not saying anything about doing any more than just posting and saying we're all still here.

I remember the old community. We had our potty mouth PvPers, we had our helpful people, we had our resident doom sayers, we had people that was shy, we had aggressive in your face people, we had people with strange look on life, we had dreamers, we had doers, we had people that did nothing at all, we had drive by shooters (good and bad), we had people who were experts at builds, we had noobs, we had newbs, we had people who were beasts on a computer, we had people that were barely could turn on a computer and made people wonder how did they manage to get online in the first place, we had Star trek experts we had star wars experts we had people who didnt give a hoot about neither and we had gossip experts and I think we even had an ex-Amish guy, A community.

Funny story. I was a roleplayer on Virtue server. Anyone that knows how things worked there, also knows that Pocket D held some of the strangest characters in the server. Normally these people tended to make me giggle, but I never harassed anyone, and often just let them do their thing.

In the final month of game time, my scientist character was beset by a strange space alien catman that tried commission my character to build him an electroshock pod chamber as a sex toy for his anthromorphic homosexual husband.

Yes, I know. Weird as hell. And on a normal day I would've cringed and walked away. But this weirdness came with it a charm that I know I'll never find anywhere else. City of Heroes had every kind of person from the weird and deviant, to an immense LGBT community, to even military members former and current. And in the time I've spent on Champions, the closest thing we've got to Paragon; I've seen nothing of such a range. Mostly just ex CoH players hanging onto old characters and a rather inclined furry community.

That catman may very well be the last time I encounter the strange and unusual in the style of City of Heroes Pocket D horrors. And I confess that I'm starting to miss how weird the community could be, as it certainly made for good conversational experience.

[JaguarX]

People are giving up, getting upset that others haven't, and those that haven't given up are getting upset that many others are leaving. It's driving a wedge in our community.

this

[downix]

People are giving up, getting upset that others haven't, and those that haven't given up are getting upset that many others are leaving. It's driving a wedge in our community.

Part of why I've focused on the Plan Z side. Ultimately, those who give up do so because they lack hope. Unless NCSoft changes their tune, there is no way to give them hope of a return from just the usual routines, so give them hope for something new.

[Ironwolf]

My main problems have been one of timing, I have to travel to Florida next Wednesday for my daughters wedding and this on top of normal real life - wife goes in for surgery the day after we get back and will be laid up for a month, has just made it nearly impossible for me to find time for much of anything.

I am sorry - I bought a website and have been working on it but Vyolet has done such an awesome job in far less time than I have spent that there is no point my going forward with anything but funding.

I still have hopes for this game and there are far, far more lurkers than posters on any website. This doesn't mean they don't care and won't quietly help - they just aren't as forward as others.

[Tubbius]

I'm here; I'm just one broke English teacher (which is a redundant phrase) who might be having to relocate in a month or two. 

[LadyWizard]

Anyone else notice how many on that top 10 were no customization?

Fusion Fall is very restrictive for your trainer holding nanos(gear based looks after hair, skin, and eyes)
DC Infinite Crisis by Turbine is Champions based(and not even in beta yet though they just sent out preferred beta code access emails)
Marvel Heroes/Super Hero Squad NO customization at all by Gazillion
Avengers Alliance you barely get the customize your shield agent in the beginning then swap in and out on the rest of your team
gotham city imposters is fps so probably not much customization there

never tried Hero Smash but it's by dragonfable creators artix

This list is not making me feel real good on custom chances since only real customization ones on there is Champions and DC UO as well as City of Heroes

[dwturducken]

Do we need a roll call? See how many people are still here?

[Memorandum]

Guys, just because not everybody here is posting 20 replys every day, doesn't mean, that people and fans of the game are not following the threads. 

[MakoMako]

Guys, just because not everybody here is posting 20 replys every day, doesn't mean, that people and fans of the game are not following the threads. 

Uh. That's been acknowledged. There's a difference between having a presence and lurking.

The concern is community. So when image of community comes into play, the fact that people supportive of the game aren't active posters means we really can't prove just how active things are. We had, what, 20,000 independent signatures in a petition to keep CoH going? Out of all those, only 30 people are active on the main forum for saving it? What does that say?

Nobody said that lurkers aren't following the threads. In fact, I think that was a paranoid delusion for a while, that we had a ton of NCSoft lurkers keeping track of us.

[Aleksandros]

I do my best to monitor all threads daily for new updates.  Little posting as of late, nothing constructive or uplifting to add from my viewpoint.  On the lantern spectrum, I tend to swing a lot more toward Red than Blue lately 

[Lightslinger]

(disclaimer that this is my opinion), As I see it this community needs better goals. As long as our goals are tied to NCsoft we will continually fail and grow more and more bitter and discouraged.

I do support the Banners project. I think if nothing else they will get the attention of the gaming press. "ex-CoHers buying ads to get their game back." style headlines. We may even get an interview or two out of it that might might MIGHT get the attention of NCsoft. Even if it fails, its a great last hurrah for our community and our legitimate attempts to get our game back. It's unprecedented as far as I know and I'd love to see our community pull it off.

However, where NCsoft is concerned here's what is most likely true: NCsoft will never sell CoH. This is their style of business and how they function. NCsoft is an incredibly stout company with a LOT of money. It will take mountains moving to change their mind on this.

So here's what I'm doing: focusing on what we can control. I've decided if I'm going to have something to put my hope in and support as much as I can it will be the community server projects and TPP. TPP and the community server(s) are projects entirely in our control and I believe they have the greatest chance of getting CoH or something like it back.

[Ironwolf]

Here are the issues we face:

1. Most companies will not let us know whether they made an offer or not for CoH. If they did make an offer they are unlikely to tell anyone how much they offered or whether NCSoft replied with serious counter offers.

2. As time passes life pulls us away at times. Deaths, surgeries, marriages, jobs lost/gained, children and all of these things are in all seriousness more important than any game.

3. We only have one company that has shown interest in hearing from us - Google.

4. Human patience and time. Time passes and our patience wears thin and we start to drift - it is understandable.

[JaguarX]

Uh. That's been acknowledged. There's a difference between having a presence and lurking.

The concern is community. So when image of community comes into play, the fact that people supportive of the game aren't active posters means we really can't prove just how active things are. We had, what, 20,000 independent signatures in a petition to keep CoH going? Out of all those, only 30 people are active on the main forum for saving it? What does that say?

Nobody said that lurkers aren't following the threads. In fact, I think that was a paranoid delusion for a while, that we had a ton of NCSoft lurkers keeping track of us.

Yeah there probably are lurkers but cant count lurkers too much as far as activity anymore than a person count an channel that have two people talking as very active channel even if one hundred people are watching. As far as people that go through that channel of two, it's two people having a conversation and not very active.

Now even if 50 of those hundred peeped in and said something as simple as hi, then that is 52 people on the channel and the then the channel may look active.

And usually activity inspires more activity.


In this case if someone was looking to join and they see the same people that comment on the articles talking about savecox, and they come here and see the same people there saying savecox, and they see those same people again saying savecox, it looks like as if outside those few, not many people are buying it especially when the population of the community is put out there as being once 150,000 players or 60,000 playes at closing or even with Matt saying that it was the largest populated game at shut down. And then people come here and only see 20-30 people active? That looks like as a whole the community dont give hoot about the game closing especially when we advertise ourselves as being the hub of the movement and or this is the place that community congregated to. 

We have more to offer than SaveCOX or hate NCSoft. We have comic converation section, hell we even have converation titles about other games including NCSOft titles. But most people probably dont know that because when they see SaveCOX usually Titan Network follows in the statement. Thus that is what they think TItan network is all about and only about. Now not everyone will bite on the movement, but that doesnt mean there is nothing here for them. I think we can also reconize the people that may be or may not be fighting outside Titan Network but just isnt here. That make the movement and acknowledges that the movement is not only in and by Titan Network but much wider than that. Travelig across the net and lookign at articles, mostly I see saveCOX from the same peopel that are already active here. And many other ex-coxers talking about moving on and missing the community. Ok, they can move on, I dont think any less of them. But that doesnt mean they shouldnt be able to come here and be part of the community they miss. Even if they moved on that doesnt automatically mean they lost all hope and slipped in to reversible despair. Maybe if they are welcomed here, and feel welcomed, they might catch some hope. But they wont go where they feel they are not welcomed and that does is build on their hopelessness and more into it's a lost cause. They still can come here and chat even if it's about comics. In the end as a side effect makes the movement look more lively and active which can attract more.

For example, if TonyV (i know he would probably do this) came here and said "Alright guys, we done all we can, time to turn it in." How many, dont have to reply out loud but think deep, would also just give up? I have a feeling many would give up too. I also havea feeling some will go on fighting.Sometimes seeing other people have hope gives others hope which give other hopes and give other people may have little hope if any may inspire them to do something anyways.

It's good getting the word out that Titan network is trying to save COX but also put out the other stuff and a person dont have to be a pure angry boycott NCSoft to join here and have a good time liek the old days.  Do anyone know even of the CO forum that Titan Network have a CO section outside people that is here already? Or GWs topic? Or art section? General chat section? Or do they think it's all saveCOX and if not trying to savecox dont bother coming around here? And from the looks of it, they took heed to that. We all humans, we come and go. We already had number disadvantage, money disadvantage, IP disadvantage, lets not add this continued division as a disadvantage. Because thinking like someone that want to to see us fail and fall, I would love to keep the division as it's easier to counter. I would egg on people to get pissed and show how easily they lose their temper on other websites just to make a monkey out them to show them that Titan consist of a few nutcases and chip at their credibilty and make it look like they are not very friendly outside their inner circle. Then to top it off, I'd paint them in a light that make it seems that anyone not part of the saveCOX movement is not welcomed, even if they were ex-coxers. Which further the division, and once the lines are drawn, I'd instigate a war between the sides to ensure that all sides hate the other sides and kill any chance that the community will rise up as one. Then I'll sleep good at night knowing that I can rest in peace and not worry about them rising anywhere besides a few making noise until they lose hope too when they realize they are on their own. Divide and conqour. As long I can keep it saveCOX vs everyone else, and pit hopefuls against the non-hopefuls, and people in between against both, as I would do if I was enemy, then there would be nothing for NCSoft to worry about as long I keep them blind from what they have in common. They miss COX.  It's even easier when they would do the job for me, which seems have happened. Maybe it was all inevitable. In the end regardless we only can do what we can do on top of dealing with real life. So if we can, including lurkers, please do. If ya cant, it's ok too.

[nataliaofvirtues]

Dwturduken I have been here all along and have no plans of leaving until the final curtain is called. I do not usually have a lot to say so I am pretty quiet. Once in a while someone will say something to spark something in me and I will speak up, but then I lie back down. At any rate, I am not much support for any of the projects, however, if there is donations to be given, I will surely do my part. I miss this game so much that I still get angry at NCsoft for what they did, but when I do, I come here and read the positive notes for all of my community and i somehow feel a bit better.

To all that is busting hump to get us back up in some form, please know, my hats off to you and if I can help in anyway (donations). I am in.

[Taceus Jiwede]

I actually think that the people who are lurking have the complete right to do so.  Just because they don't post doesn't mean they aren't contributing.  They are the ones giving things thumbs up, possibly sharing it with their friends, and like in the above post donations.

Just because they don't jump on every runaway train or every call to action doesn't mean they aren't helping when they can.  I choose which Calls to action and things to take part in just like anyone including the forum lurkers.  The difference is the volume of posts I make, but that doesn't mean I do any less or more then people who choose not to post as often.

And I really hate to say this but quiet frankly in my opinion the whole "crush NCSoft" thing is a runaway goal that will never be achieved and was a huge detour from our original goal to Save CoH and for awhile that was the focus of our goals it seemed.  That lost a lot of supporters for us, some people just wanted CoH back and could care less what NCSoft did.

The reason I post this is because I don't think, and haven't seen any yet, we should have ill-wishes towards lurkers and checker iners.  Or speak about them as if they are part of the problem.  It is their choose when to speak and when not to speak.  And for all we know they are still taking part in the calls to actions.  I truly, truly only say this because I don't want people who are lurking around to think "Screw this" and take off because they don't post 20 times a day.  I have been saying this for awhile but the last thing we want is to become a "with us or against us" type of community.  I am not saying this post or anyone is going that way.  But threads get hot fast and we can't afford to lose anymore people.  Including those who are behind the scenes so to say.

[SeaLily]

Anyone else notice how many on that top 10 were no customization?

Fusion Fall is very restrictive for your trainer holding nanos(gear based looks after hair, skin, and eyes)
DC Infinite Crisis by Turbine is Champions based(and not even in beta yet though they just sent out preferred beta code access emails)
Marvel Heroes/Super Hero Squad NO customization at all by Gazillion
Avengers Alliance you barely get the customize your shield agent in the beginning then swap in and out on the rest of your team
gotham city imposters is fps so probably not much customization there

never tried Hero Smash but it's by dragonfable creators artix

This list is not making me feel real good on custom chances since only real customization ones on there is Champions and DC UO as well as City of Heroes

I just wanted to say Gotham City Impostors actually has a pretty impressive amount of character customization.  Not anything on par with CoH of course, but it's got five bodytypes (Speedy, Female, Male, Burly, and Brawny if I recall), a ton of different outfits for both factions(everything is Batman themed for the Bats and Joker themed for the Jokerz but that's out of necessity), and even selectable and pitch-shiftable voices, in a number of languages, and of course plenty of different faces.  And you can even reskin your weapons, of which there's a ton of, to look different.

GCI was a pretty solid game with a TON of really fun mobility (spring shoes, gliders, jetpacks, grappling hooks, roller skates, etc) and customization, and it made me think of it as the closest we'll see to an FPS adapting any of CoH's concepts.  It's also free, so if any of this sounds interesting check it out on Steam.  It's obviously not even the same kind of game as CoH, but it kind of fell by the wayside without getting the sort of recognition I think it deserved.

[JaguarX]

I actually think that the people who are lurking have the complete right to do so.  Just because they don't post doesn't mean they aren't contributing.  They are the ones giving things thumbs up, possibly sharing it with their friends, and like in the above post donations.

Just because they don't jump on every runaway train or every call to action doesn't mean they aren't helping when they can.  I choose which Calls to action and things to take part in just like anyone including the forum lurkers.  The difference is the volume of posts I make, but that doesn't mean I do any less or more then people who choose not to post as often.

And I really hate to say this but quiet frankly in my opinion the whole "crush NCSoft" thing is a runaway goal that will never be achieved and was a huge detour from our original goal to Save CoH and for awhile that was the focus of our goals it seemed.  That lost a lot of supporters for us, some people just wanted CoH back and could care less what NCSoft did.

The reason I post this is because I don't think, and haven't seen any yet, we should have ill-wishes towards lurkers and checker iners.  Or speak about them as if they are part of the problem.  It is their choose when to speak and when not to speak.  And for all we know they are still taking part in the calls to actions.  I truly, truly only say this because I don't want people who are lurking around to think "Screw this" and take off because they don't post 20 times a day.  I have been saying this for awhile but the last thing we want is to become a "with us or against us" type of community.  I am not saying this post or anyone is going that way.  But threads get hot fast and we can't afford to lose anymore people.  Including those who are behind the scenes so to say.

yeah.

[Triplash]

I actually think that the people who are lurking have the complete right to do so.  Just because they don't post doesn't mean they aren't contributing.

Yep, this is very true. You're not always in control of how much time you have, and even if you are, not everyone wants to spend all their time in one place. Good ideas don't just come from people who talk a lot, and caring doesn't just come from people who show up a lot.

To all you lurkers: It doesn't matter how often you post, or how often you stop by to catch up. Just know that we're here when you do feel like it. So check back now and again, cause one of these days we might just have good news. And hey... once in a while, feel free to jump in on a conversation too, or just say hi. Talking to some (mostly) nice people about some (mostly) interesting stuff isn't the worst way to spend your time.

[VyoletRose]

<---- I'm a lurker. I'm not a frequent poster.

But I do check here every day to see what's going on, what everyone's been up to, read the linked articles, participate where I can. The banner ad gave me new drive, so I fiddled with some pieces. It wasn't that we couldn't get banners posted anywhere, it was "where is it going to link to?" I felt another push, I want to help here.

Ironwolf, we should use the domain you nabbed. I need help with coding. My strength is graphic design, and  I've only just scratched the surface with html. I can make design mockups with the community's input We should be forward-thinking now.

If we renew our efforts toward a new, informative, not whiney website, then we can make players love the game again. We can create interest for those who have never heard of us. We should strengthen the game's fanbase.

Those that I've shown my mockups to outside of this forum had no idea about the expansiveness of our game. They were blown away by the screenshots, the range in costumes, and are also confused by how our game closed. They wanted to know what happened, they shook their heads too, and asked the same questions we do, "Why?" But most of all, they were sad they missed out on being a part of it, because they didn't know it even existed.

[nataliaofvirtues]

VyoletRose, I also have found that many ppl had no idea of the scope of City. I was recently talking to a group of gamers at work about their game (league of Legends) when they asked me what i played. I choked a bit and said well I used to play City of Heroes. Some had heard of it but then I was asked about the game. I went in to detail about the assets that our game had/has and the extent that you could go to when designing a costume or building a SG base. They were blown out of the water and a couple of them even told me later it was too bad it wasn't still here they would have liked to tried it.

So my point here is yeah, we need to let people outside of our community know what OUR WORLD was all about and how much it had to offer.

[MakoMako]

I actually think that the people who are lurking have the complete right to do so.

Nobody here has said anything about rights. Please check out the points made by myself and Jaguar. -Lurking- is not a bad thing. And it's good that people continue to attend this forum and stay informed.

We're not talking about what you do and do not have a right to do. Not talking about choices. I don't know where exactly you got the idea we were, but I'll clarify here in a better way.

There were 20,000+ people on that petition. It may or may not have represented the actual number of people that wanted to save the game. There are clearly not that many active posters on this forum. This is not to say we don't have 20,000 people reading it.

In regards to -image-, the issue is a matter of someone coming in, only seeing 30 people out of those 20,000, and considering it a lost cause because the effort has so few active -public- players. Every topic I read here is largely the same names over and over, so what does that say 'out there' to the larger masses? Statistically, that's less than 1% of the old guard that seems to want to keep their game. (Once again, public image. And unfortunately as a community, to get much of anywhere we need image, not just people working silently)

Don't get me wrong, I think it's fantastic we're getting people here. And it's even better that even those that're not active thread-post contributors are contributing where it counts. IE: Calls to Actions, letters, etc. The matter is simply a matter of what others will see when coming in here. I may come here every day, but I don't post here every day. (Just a single look at my post count should make that clear)

Now, in regards to letting people outside our community in on things... This is a hard task to perform. The game isn't there for anyone to try anymore. We can brag about its features until blue in the face, but any rational-minded person will always be skeptical on just how good a game is that it was canned.

Perfect example of ignorance of people outside this community? While discussing CoH matters with people in Champions, the subject of money and success of the game came up. The majority of people involved in the discussion were former CoH players, but the topics of Star Trek Online's new expansion came up and how Synapse was supposedly responsible for some of the dynamic. (For those in the unawares... The new expansion is apparently slated to work similarly to the way Going Rogue worked, where  you play for X number of levels as a Romulan, eventually to pick sides)

The native Champions crowd, who've been dealing with Cryptic and their negligence towards Champions for a long time, apparently didn't like discussion on City of Heroes. In our discussion, only a few present individuals were native CO players. And when it came to discussing the monetary gain of City of Heroes and how Going Rogue brought in decent numbers, one of the quotes I heard: "Yeah? Well look where Going Rogue got your game."

It was... Aggravating. I couldn't tell if it was an angry troll remark or a statement born of ignorance, but it's clear that people outside this community have no idea what's really going on here.

In another example, I spoke to a former CoH-player (this individual left the game in early 2012) who seemed convinced that CoH was shut down because "NCSoft is already developing CoH2, probably didn't feel like competing with itself." At first I thought this was a troll move, too. Until I showed him a few websites and suddenly it clicked, causing him to change tunes real quickly. I have no idea how he thought a sequel was being made...

Thinking of this... What -is- the outside opinion on City of Heroes? I mean... Not to fans, nor to nay-sayers involved with us in any way. Has anyone read material from an unbiased reviewer or journalist somewhere that lost nothing from this, nor has anything to lose by speaking for or against anything?

[LaughingAlex]

Responding to the last post here

Honestly I find the attitude of the champions online crowd is often somewhat aggravating in general at times.  I've found roleplayers there to be mature but you also have alot of people there who've done nothing but doomsay the game, and then claim city of heroes sucked because they hated city of heroes for some reason or another.  One group I know of in fact often complained of enhancement diversification who often didn't know anything about city of heroes(a group I rarely speak with anymore for that very reason).  The champions online crowd in zone chat is often some complaint about vehicles or the lack of content and how the game is going to be shut down.

Other times you have CO players who certainly show the level of ignorance as to why city of heroes was shut down that we've grown familiar with.  But I sometimes feel the champions online crowd has a lot of players who like champions online because they feel powerful in the game for stomping near-harmless henchmen.  The game has no depth and is honestly to easy 90% of the time.

Honestly though City of heroes being started back up would be good for champions online, as I feel the lack of competition has already caused the game to grow more stagnant then ever before.  It's good there is at least an effort here to revive city of heroes.  Some people have said this game's being shut down has been hard on the mmo community and I think it's been even harder on super hero themed mmo's.  They no longer have a good example, just other mmo's that are the grind no one in there right mind wants to really play.

[JaguarX]

Honestly I find the attitude of the champions online crowd is often somewhat aggravating in general at times.  I've found roleplayers there to be mature but you also have alot of people there who've done nothing but doomsay the game, and then claim city of heroes sucked because they hated city of heroes for some reason or another.  One group I know of in fact often complained of enhancement diversification who often didn't know anything about city of heroes(a group I rarely speak with anymore for that very reason).  The champions online crowd in zone chat is often some complaint about vehicles or the lack of content and how the game is going to be shut down.

Well to be honest, there have been claims that CO sucked here, the old forum, and inside COX. I just viewed it as personal choice of what is considered a good game or a bad game to that particular person. IE-there are posts even here where people say that cant play or dont play CO because simply of the artwork.

 Doomsayers are in just about any game. I Many players of CO played COX many others didnt. Even within COX not everyone was keen on ED and it was the topic of some pretty heated debates throughout the times and these were from the COX forums.

I dont think there will never be one game that is made for everyone nor one measurement that is agreed upong that makes a good game.

 Other times you have CO players who certainly show the level of ignorance as to why city of heroes was shut down that we've grown familiar with.  But I sometimes feel the champions online crowd has a lot of players who like champions online because they feel powerful in the game for stomping near-harmless henchmen.  The game has no depth and is honestly to easy 90% of the time.

Hmmm interesting this is. I guess what is hard for one is easy for another. I see a lot of both complaints. I see some on one side sya the game is too easy then I see just as many saying the game is too hard and their character is too squish and how in COX they could round up rooms full of minions in COX (mostly pre-ED and before aggro caps people) and let off an AOE, kill them all, then rinse repeat while trying that in CO get them faceplanted.

Me personally I think CO is just more oriented towards solo players than COX was. On a team, I dont think 98% of the game was in any way difficult or required anything more than smash a aoe  andm ove on to the next group even on highest settings. And even easier to not even a challenge anymore after IOs billion dollar toon teams. Solo, COX was difficult at all in most content to me. There been times and mind you I didnt do IOs, so all SOs, that I could leave my toon in the midsts of a group of mob go afk go to the store, drink my drink then come back and they are still pounding away and my health havent dropped below 10%.  I couldnt imagine it getting much easier than that. In CO, I probably can do the same inside missions and many out door areas with a lot of my toons and still not using any special gear. To me CO is not easier nor harder than COX overall. And it's hard to say really what is harder from outside looking in when one side there is a crowd taht is saying it's too easy on the other, saying the toon is too squish and they cant even build a proper tank to withstand the damage they could in COX.

Honestly though City of heroes being started back up would be good for champions online, as I feel the lack of competition has already caused the game to grow more stagnant then ever before.  It's good there is at least an effort here to revive city of heroes.  Some people have said this game's being shut down has been hard on the mmo community and I think it's been even harder on super hero themed mmo's.  They no longer have a good example, just other mmo's that are the grind no one in there right mind wants to really play.

I think lack of competition makes any product potentially stagnant. It's like running race with yourself. No matter if you run a 1 mile in 5 minutes, or 3 minutes or 94.5 minutes, you still ocme in first place. It seems that in CO case even when COX was around it still was nearly the same as it is now. First it was that CO wasnt pulling in enough money because of competion from COX now that it's gone, it's because there is no competiton. SOunds liek to me, they rae dancing aroudn the real issue that the game is not recieving proper attention and features that even the other games are getting that are based o nthe same game engine. From what I hear, although it's same engine, it's not same version. Just like you have the Chevy 350 engine, that in the basis been around at least since the 70s but things you can do with and how the 70s version run compared to the say the mid 90s version is different. But just asmany people dont know about car mechanics many dont know much about game mechanics. As far as they concerned is that a 350 Chevy engine is a 350 chevy engine and dont understand why this superchager is compatible with the 1999-2001 version but incompatible with the 70s-80s version. And in many cases even if a person manage to get the same part bolted on to both, they dont understand why that one part on the 70s version boost the hp/torque output by one number while on the updated version pushes it to another number and causes rough idle and running rich problem.

[Ironwolf]

Vyoletrose - I will forward to you the website login info so you can use it as you will. I am only paying $7 a month or so and have it paid for the next 6 months in advance.

It is ArkofHeroes.com - Imagine a wise group seeing the end coming and gathering heroes into an ark and trying to Teleport them out of a failing universe...........

I have a long term plan of my own as well in developing a game - I just have a lot to learn on using the SDK and so this summer I will start taking some classes on it. I have plans to retire in the next 7-10 years and having a game developed and published prior to that might make a great retirement project to keep me rolling.

[Taceus Jiwede]

Mako, please read mine again because you only read what you wanted to read.   Then if you would like me to read your post and not just skim it.  Start it out in a way that isn't worded like an attack on me.

[dwturducken]

I have nothing against lurkers, and you don't have to post to participate. I think nat o' virt made that point nicely. Some of us are busy bodies, and some of us have to speak up more often than others. I know we're in the minority. I wasn't actually looking for a literal roll call, but thanks for piping up.

That said, I think the most vocal of us are the ones who are the least busy, as far as the various projects. I know that's the case with me. I have no industry contacts and am not a journalist of any flavor. I have no writing or art/programming skills, so I wait for the calls to action. If there's an ideas thread, I chime in with anything that seems worthy, even a few things that don't. You never know.

People come and go, but I don't think anyone is giving up. I wouldn't say that morale is high, but a casual cruise through the forums of some other games out there will show that there are active games where spirits are lower and frustrations definitely higher than they are here. We still have each other to get us through to whatever lies ahead.

[Taceus Jiwede]

I have nothing against lurkers, and you don't have to post to participate. I think nat o' virt made that point nicely. Some of us are busy bodies, and some of us have to speak up more often than others. I know we're in the minority. I wasn't actually looking for a literal roll call, but thanks for piping up.

That said, I think the most vocal of us are the ones who are the least busy, as far as the various projects. I know that's the case with me. I have no industry contacts and am not a journalist of any flavor. I have no writing or art/programming skills, so I wait for the calls to action. If there's an ideas thread, I chime in with anything that seems worthy, even a few things that don't. You never know.

People come and go, but I don't think anyone is giving up. I wouldn't say that morale is high, but a casual cruise through the forums of some other games out there will show that there are active games where spirits are lower and frustrations definitely higher than they are here. We still have each other to get us through to whatever lies ahead.

Well put dwturducken

[AlphaFerret]

I am also a lurker who does not post a lot.  However, I check in almost daily....just in case...

[MakoMako]

I think lack of competition makes any product potentially stagnant. It's like running race with yourself. No matter if you run a 1 mile in 5 minutes, or 3 minutes or 94.5 minutes, you still ocme in first place. It seems that in CO case even when COX was around it still was nearly the same as it is now. First it was that CO wasnt pulling in enough money because of competion from COX now that it's gone, it's because there is no competiton. SOunds liek to me, they rae dancing aroudn the real issue that the game is not recieving proper attention and features that even the other games are getting that are based o nthe same game engine. From what I hear, although it's same engine, it's not same version. Just like you have the Chevy 350 engine, that in the basis been around at least since the 70s but things you can do with and how the 70s version run compared to the say the mid 90s version is different. But just asmany people dont know about car mechanics many dont know much about game mechanics. As far as they concerned is that a 350 Chevy engine is a 350 chevy engine and dont understand why this superchager is compatible with the 1999-2001 version but incompatible with the 70s-80s version. And in many cases even if a person manage to get the same part bolted on to both, they dont understand why that one part on the 70s version boost the hp/torque output by one number while on the updated version pushes it to another number and causes rough idle and running rich problem.

The reasons behind Champions' issues are actually a separate thing entirely. As I understand it, it's largely the developers and distribution of talent in Cryptic.

People in Champions might notice that some of the hideouts are unfinished. (Much like SG bases in CoH technically never got finished) The reason is because developers tasked to this, the ones familiar with the code, were moved away from Champions to Neverwinter. The current hope in Champions is that once Neverwinter is released, they'll get their old developers back to make more content.

The problem is, if Perfect World and Cryptic are smart, they'll do no such thing. Pulling away all the developers is what damaged CO was badly back in 2009, when Atari thought the game would work like a single player RPG in that they would only need to leave a skeleton crew to continue work on it.

As it stands, it largely appears to be a failed project that they're keeping active because people are still playing and enjoy it a lot. Which is a real shame because I've been playing CO since the day of the announcement and... Well... It had... It -has- fantastic potential, if they ever decide to delve into it.

Actually, does anyone know the numbers that CO generates? In all the time I've been there, I don't think I've seen nearly the same number of players as I was last summer on CoH. I'm curious what money it makes with such a diminutive developing crew, and a player base that generally appears to be unhappy with what they've been getting. Versus City of Heroes which didn't seem to come even close to that level.

[Nyx Nought Nothing]

While i only post sporadically i do read these forums several times a week. While i would love to have the game servers come back up, regardless of whether i'd have to start over from scratch, unless i've missed a recent post (highly possible) there's not much to directly do towards reviving the game at this moment. i don't really use Twitter and have no interest in randomly spamming NCsoft.

In the meantime i will concede that i've more or less moved on for the time being. i've been playing pen and paper RPGs and watching The Phoenix Project's work more lately. (And working on a lot more sculptures since the game shut down, so CoH being defunct is something of a mixed blessing in that regard.) If i hear about another push where i can do something useful to revive the game i'm in. Until then i'll mostly keep dropping by and occasionally post as the whim strikes me.

[JaguarX]

The reasons behind Champions' issues are actually a separate thing entirely. As I understand it, it's largely the developers and distribution of talent in Cryptic.

People in Champions might notice that some of the hideouts are unfinished. (Much like SG bases in CoH technically never got finished) The reason is because developers tasked to this, the ones familiar with the code, were moved away from Champions to Neverwinter. The current hope in Champions is that once Neverwinter is released, they'll get their old developers back to make more content.

The problem is, if Perfect World and Cryptic are smart, they'll do no such thing. Pulling away all the developers is what damaged CO was badly back in 2009, when Atari thought the game would work like a single player RPG in that they would only need to leave a skeleton crew to continue work on it.

As it stands, it largely appears to be a failed project that they're keeping active because people are still playing and enjoy it a lot. Which is a real shame because I've been playing CO since the day of the announcement and... Well... It had... It -has- fantastic potential, if they ever decide to delve into it.

Actually, does anyone know the numbers that CO generates? In all the time I've been there, I don't think I've seen nearly the same number of players as I was last summer on CoH. I'm curious what money it makes with such a diminutive developing crew, and a player base that generally appears to be unhappy with what they've been getting. Versus City of Heroes which didn't seem to come even close to that level.

 yup exactly.

I doubt it brings in nearly as much but wouldt be surprised if it's still returning profit from those lockboxes and the lack of crew they have to pay. I think one community rep and a dev hanging around and maybe a tech support person.

[Joshex]

Has anyone read my signiture lately?

theres always a way, sometimes you wont like it and sometimes people are too dumb to think of it (sorry thats the part I left off so I wouldn't seem arrogant) but it applies here;

there are several ways for NCSoft to bring back CoH without any fiasco like you describe with stock holders backing out or such, one of them involves making a few marketing changes to the game (shop related stuff) and saying;

"It's fixed now, we spent all year tryign to come up with strategies to fix it and it's finally done"

another way? a name change "Not City of Heroes" and "Not City of Villains" ok yeah I know thats laughable but legally it would work and they could use the trademark CoH2 as a placeholder to distinguish the identity of this particular game IP.

lastly is the confuse method, aka go and change the text from the CoH shutdown to include "until we can solve certain issues" and let it roll for a month or two quietly then bring it up and a board meeting "the time has come".

these are just some possibillities, the ones that rolled off the top of my head (thankyou subconscious gosh you're a genius what would I do without you, lets face it I'm an idiot the real brains of the opperation are back there)

[Taceus Jiwede]

Has anyone read my signiture lately?

theres always a way, sometimes you wont like it and sometimes people are too dumb to think of it (sorry thats the part I left off so I wouldn't seem arrogant) but it applies here;

there are several ways for NCSoft to bring back CoH without any fiasco like you describe with stock holders backing out or such, one of them involves making a few marketing changes to the game (shop related stuff) and saying;

"It's fixed now, we spent all year tryign to come up with strategies to fix it and it's finally done"

another way? a name change "Not City of Heroes" and "Not City of Villains" ok yeah I know thats laughable but legally it would work and they could use the trademark CoH2 as a placeholder to distinguish the identity of this particular game IP.

lastly is the confuse method, aka go and change the text from the CoH shutdown to include "until we can solve certain issues" and let it roll for a month or two quietly then bring it up and a board meeting "the time has come".

these are just some possibillities, the ones that rolled off the top of my head (thankyou subconscious gosh you're a genius what would I do without you, lets face it I'm an idiot the real brains of the opperation are back there)

I agree there is most likely a way to get NCSoft to sell SOMEHOW.  The above mentions could work but only if NCSoft wanted to bring the game back.  It seem's they have no desire to bring back the game or allow it to be brought back elsewhere.  We know people would buy the IP, we know they could make it look like they weren't the bad guys, we know people would play it.  What we don't know is how to make them want to bring it back.  Because until they decide they want it to come back or want to sell it will remain in MMO limbo.  I mean I guess we could slowly but surely some how manipulate the execs at NCSoft with blackmail, connections, a little fraud and some physical convincing.  That would be a way that not everyone would like but would most likely work. <----- that last part was a joke BTW.  Just to prevent confusion.

[Stellar Agent]

Having tried out Marvel Heroes (MH) in Beta, I can only disagree.

I think I'd rather watch paint dry than play MH for a sustained period of time.

I'm not a fan of DCUO but it's miles better than MH.

Agreed.  I also was in the MH Beta and I just recently quit because, well, (IMHO) there is no way it will ever attain any kind of respectability?  It is definitely targeted at a younger audience than CoX was and I think will suffer for that.  The older players seem to be playing out of a sense of nostalgia more than anything else.

[Joshex]

Agreed.  I also was in the MH Beta and I just recently quit because, well, (IMHO) there is no way it will ever attain any kind of respectability?  It is definitely targeted at a younger audience than CoX was and I think will suffer for that.  The older players seem to be playing out of a sense of nostalgia more than anything else.

the nintendo marketing tactic, advertise and make games for kids and contantly change to update your games for the new generation, that way yeah there will be times when you ahve no players but after that the new generation will cause a boom in product sales.

bassically "to hell with our old fans, they have outlived thier usefulness to our marketing strategy"

[MakoMako]

To be fair, it's where the money is. When Nintendo went through with the Wii, it played the road safe during the economic recession by making lots of cheap casual games while occasionally coming up with stuff for the hardcore fans of Nintendo. End result was a large number of casual games.

I can't say I believe the idea was "Screw our fans" so much as "we're keeping you in mind but we need to still think about ourselves." They still had plenty of material for old time fans, enough so to keep them around.

[Lightslinger]

the nintendo marketing tactic, advertise and make games for kids and contantly change to update your games for the new generation, that way yeah there will be times when you ahve no players but after that the new generation will cause a boom in product sales.

bassically "to hell with our old fans, they have outlived thier usefulness to our marketing strategy"

This could not be further from the truth. First party (Nintendo) titles are what sells Nintendo consoles. Mario, Zelda, Smash Brothers, Yoshi, Mario Kart, etc are just as much for "adults" and "real gamers" as any other title out there.

[MakoMako]

This could not be further from the truth. First party (Nintendo) titles are what sells Nintendo consoles. Mario, Zelda, Smash Brothers, Yoshi, Mario Kart, etc are just as much for "adults" and "real gamers" as any other title out there.

I believe he's actually referring to the statement made by Nintendo a few years ago when they said they were shifting their focus moreso onto casual gamers, in an attempt to maintain financial stability. It's long since been blown out of proportion as Nintendo claiming they don't care about their long time loyal fans of Nintendo titles. (This is in spite of the fact there's been more push on the mainstream titles on the Wii, than either N64 nor Gamecube ages)

[Lightslinger]

I believe he's actually referring to the statement made by Nintendo a few years ago when they said they were shifting their focus moreso onto casual gamers, in an attempt to maintain financial stability. It's long since been blown out of proportion as Nintendo claiming they don't care about their long time loyal fans of Nintendo titles. (This is in spite of the fact there's been more push on the mainstream titles on the Wii, than either N64 nor Gamecube ages)

Yeah, and to be fair joshex's point is right on the money...for third party Wii developers. Too many people saw the Wii as a cheap, easy cash in on this new "casual new gamer" market. So the Wii was flooded with shovelware "casual" games.

You're definitely right about that whole controversy being overblown. Nintendo is trying to expand the video game market to more people? GASP! Just because they were indeed focusing on getting "new" people to try games doesn't mean they sacrificed real gamers.

I'm not being a Wii fanboy either, now that its time has come and gone I can definitely say good riddance. The "waggle" style controls really, really irked me. I didn't mind waggle in Twilight Princess, it was just slight swings of the remote for sword swings, you could actually cast the fishing line, no big deal. Then Skyway Sword comes along and every. single. thing. required some overblown movement to accomplish...yeeesh. For the first time ever I abandoned a Zelda game, could not get past those annoying controls.

Which really, really sucks for the Wii U. I own one and that second screen is AMAZING. There are so many great ways it could be utilized. Yet "floundering" would a compliment for the Wii U at this point. Nintendo turned around the 3DS launch abomination so maybe they can work some wonders with the Wii U.

[Sleepy Wonder]

<--- Lurker

I used to be active, and I've said most of my 0.02c.

As someone else mentioned I tend to choose which call to actions to participate in. I don't honestly believe banner ads will have any effect, and given they cost a lot of money, it's basically a waste in my opinion.

I use adblockplus, so I never really see any ads on the internet (can't stand them), and nobody I know pays much attention to them, so I'm passing that one up.

I've also lost some drive due to the incessant wait time with the Hail Mary CTA. There are reasons given for it's delay that while might appease most people who don't know otherwise, I have certain information I can't divulge that I believe to be one of the causes of its delay and I'm not really happy about it.

I check the forums now about once a week instead of every day.

As far as MWM goes, I can't really seem to get an update from anybody, and leads above me have dropped off the radar. I still wish for the project to succeed, but I'm not going to spend my time in limbo working on things that are going to be shelved due to miscommunication or missed memos.

We would've been better off keeping the number of volunteers to a minimum until a concrete organizational plan and vetting was done beforehand, instead of an array of people getting thrusted into positions they probably were not ready for. The technology and platforms we've been using to form some semblance of a virtual office have changed so many times I've about thrown my hands up and decided to just wait it out until someone can tell me exactly what they need from me. I'm guessing at this point its probably nothing.

All in all, I hope the community keeps in touch with each other, but moving on seems to be the way to go for folks who don't see any light at the end of the tunnel.

Hope can really only do so much before you start realizing the facts. I'm not trying to be negative though, because I do still think there's a chance, at least for another year or two that something may come from all of this.

 

[Tanklet]

I'm not trying to be negative..

 
*reads this part*

 

*re-reads the post*

 

*re-reads post 2-3-4 more times*

 

*re-reads this part*

  

[Ironwolf]

Sleepy Wonder, under the best results if the game was immediately purchased it would take 6 or more months to get it up and running again.

December 1st 2012, it stopped and it is now only May 1st 2013 - 5 months. In 5 months we have weathered deaths in our families, major surgeries, key players moving to different states and a general case of LIFE.

I personally have spent over $200 in helping friends here with problems, buying a website and other goods and services related to CoH. I will help with every possible thing I can within reason. I am not an artist, website builder or overly creative. I am however a fighter with a pretty good job and so I can do what I can.

That is what a hero does, what he can when things seem darkest. When fear, pain or depression weighs you down. You take one more step further, that's all. Sometimes, just sometimes - another person sees you take that step and they pick you up and encourage you.

[Stellar Agent]

Sleepy Wonder, under the best results if the game was immediately purchased it would take 6 or more months to get it up and running again.

December 1st 2012, it stopped and it is now only May 1st 2013 - 5 months. In 5 months we have weathered deaths in our families, major surgeries, key players moving to different states and a general case of LIFE.

I personally have spent over $200 in helping friends here with problems, buying a website and other goods and services related to CoH. I will help with every possible thing I can within reason. I am not an artist, website builder or overly creative. I am however a fighter with a pretty good job and so I can do what I can.

That is what a hero does, what he can when things seem darkest. When fear, pain or depression weighs you down. You take one more step further, that's all. Sometimes, just sometimes - another person sees you take that step and they pick you up and encourage you.

+1

[Tanklet]

Sleepy Wonder, under the best results if the game was immediately purchased it would take 6 or more months to get it up and running again.

December 1st 2012, it stopped and it is now only May 1st 2013 - 5 months. In 5 months we have weathered deaths in our families, major surgeries, key players moving to different states and a general case of LIFE.

I personally have spent over $200 in helping friends here with problems, buying a website and other goods and services related to CoH. I will help with every possible thing I can within reason. I am not an artist, website builder or overly creative. I am however a fighter with a pretty good job and so I can do what I can.

That is what a hero does, what he can when things seem darkest. When fear, pain or depression weighs you down. You take one more step further, that's all. Sometimes, just sometimes - another person sees you take that step and they pick you up and encourage you.

+1

Adds another +1
Well said sir

[Perfidus]

It still amazes me how people expected things like Task Force Hail Mary to work within days or weeks. Am I alone in thinking we should've adopted the calling card of our former developers, and just said Soon(tm)?

[Triplash]

That is what a hero does, what he can when things seem darkest. When fear, pain or depression weighs you down. You take one more step further, that's all. Sometimes, just sometimes - another person sees you take that step and they pick you up and encourage you.

[Ironwolf]

Please remember this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38AZByx548k

[OzonePrime]

It still amazes me how people expected things like Task Force Hail Mary to work within days or weeks. Am I alone in thinking we should've adopted the calling card of our former developers, and just said Soon(tm)?

Non, not alone. But, I can understand the lack of patience. I miss the game so much, I have a hard time doing the tweets because of all of the memories. Hard to type and cry.

[Tanklet]

It still amazes me how people expected things like Task Force Hail Mary to work within days or weeks.

How's about months...?

Jus' sayin' .....

[LadyVamp]

Well, Sleepy Wonder, if that's the way you feel then I guess we should wish you well and say good luck in your future endeavors.

I agree with Ironwolf.  We ARE heroes.  Here we are 5 months later and we're still together.  Sure we are in the dark and out in the cold but we will prevail.  If it takes 2 years, let it.  The important thing is we do not give up.  Heroes don't give up.  Heroes don't quit.

We will survive and we will emerge stronger so long as we don't roll over and die.  I refuse to give up and neither should you.

Together, we are making a difference.

Tankers will tank again.  Scrappers will scrap again.  Healers will heal (and curse the scrapper out for running off on her own).  trollers will control.  And, hellions will be quaking in fear.

[Nyx Nought Nothing]

Tankers will tank again.  Scrappers will scrap again.  Healers will heal (and curse the scrapper out for running off on her own).  trollers will control.  And, hellions will be quaking in fear.

And buffers and debuffers (especially in groups) will crush everything in their path again.

That said, i never expected CoH to be back in less than six months at best once the shutdown finally happened. Large corporations move at glacial speeds with regards to anything not part of their core operations and even if NCsoft decides to sell the game it would most likely take months to finalize the deal and more months to get everything going.

So even if NCsoft had decided to sell off CoH the month after they shut it down (always extremely unlikely), the earliest i would've expected to see the game back up would've been around now. My most optimistic guess would be that it would take at least four months from the moment NCsoft actually seriously does something with CoH for it to return. Which even by most standards isn't long at all. By any sort of longer term viewpoint it's barely an eyeblink.

Edit: Added the missing "sell".

[Sleepy Wonder]

It still amazes me how people expected things like Task Force Hail Mary to work within days or weeks. Am I alone in thinking we should've adopted the calling card of our former developers, and just said Soon(tm)?

I don't know where you got the idea that I expected TFHM to "work" within days or weeks or months, or if ever. For the record, I do not expect it to work at all, period. That is my opinion (of which I am entitled) if I had to bet a miniscule amount of money on.

Do I want it to work? Absolutely. Would it be awesome if it did? Absolutely. Do I, personally, expect it to? NO. I don't. I never did. Expecting and wanting are two different things.

What I do expect from people is common sense, honesty and integrity. Especially from certain people in leadership positions around here. There are a lot of misinformed people on these boards due to the result of a lack of all three. Revealing this information would accomplish nothing and only serve to bring about more harm than good.

I don't choose to lower my expectations because I'm "giving up" or "moving on". I've already moved on, but that doesn't mean I can't still be here to see how things are progressing in the event they work out, or to support something I think would make a difference.

I have my reasons for these low expectations, and if you want to continue on with a narrow minded view, be my guest. I choose to continue on with real facts. Facts determine how I feel and what I act on, not a false sense of hope or faith.

A lot of people have been pushed off these boards by people who can't handle a dose of reality every now and again (speaking to the last few responders). I get you're passionate about getting this game back, but getting upset at people because they think differently will accomplish nothing but diminish the pool of active supporters of the ultimate goal everyone is here for.

[Illusionss]

I've also lost some drive due to the incessant wait time with the Hail Mary CTA. There are reasons given for it's delay that while might appease most people who don't know otherwise, I have certain information I can't divulge that I believe to be one of the causes of its delay and I'm not really happy about it.

Ah, the infamous Mysterious Information That The World Is Not Yet Ready To Know.

I call bullhockey. Make with said Mysterious Information aka as "real facts," or forever be written off as just someone else trying to make trouble [and failing]. I won't hold my breath waiting.

[MakoMako]

Ah, the infamous Mysterious Information That The World Is Not Yet Ready To Know.

I call bullhockey. Make with said Mysterious Information aka as "real facts," or forever be written off as just someone else trying to make trouble [and failing]. I won't hold my breath waiting.

Calm down. For how long have we been buying that very same quote of "inside information" from Tony and Mercedes? You dismiss it here so easily just to discredit someone that you don't agree with, yet it's a-okay from people you do?

What's actually making me very sad as to where this topic has gone, is that Sleepy Wonder isn't even a nay-sayer nor troll. And yet there's already passive aggressive attacks and dismissal of his very stance on here. Anyone notice this? Sleepy did not, even once, say we shouldn't be doing anything nor is he advocating that everyone should follow him. All he's done is explain why he's lost a great deal of hope and while he -hopes- for the best, he is expecting the worst. As far as I'm concerned, that's a-okay, and I'm sure he would be very happy to be wrong.

The "inside information" he speaks of is genuine and is actually very much -known- among many people here. It doesn't bear repeating publically. I -don't- agree with Sleepy's opinion on the matter, for the record, and for the sake of everyone involved in that project and this topic, I think it's a really good idea if this thread be locked or if we drop that quote entirely and move on. This isn't a good way to keep civil, people.

[Lightslinger]

Calm down. For how long have we been buying that very same quote of "inside information" from Tony and Mercedes? You dismiss it here so easily just to discredit someone that you don't agree with, yet it's a-okay from people you do?

What's actually making me very sad as to where this topic has gone, is that Sleepy Wonder isn't even a nay-sayer nor unicorn. And yet there's already passive aggressive attacks and dismissal of his very stance on here. Anyone notice this? Sleepy did not, even once, say we shouldn't be doing anything nor is he advocating that everyone should follow him. All he's done is explain why he's lost a great deal of hope and while he -hopes- for the best, he is expecting the worst. As far as I'm concerned, that's a-okay, and I'm sure he would be very happy to be wrong.

The "inside information" he speaks of is genuine and is actually very much -known- among many people here. It doesn't bear repeating publically. I -don't- agree with Sleepy's opinion on the matter, for the record, and for the sake of everyone involved in that project and this topic, I think it's a really good idea if this thread be locked or if we drop that quote entirely and move on. This isn't a good way to keep civil, people.

It's all delivery and tone, I believe had Sleepy's point been made in a...different way, it probably would have went unnoticed.

I think as a community we DO need to take a stock of where we're at. If people want to stay dedicated to efforts like #SaveCoH and TF Hail Mary, that's perfectly fine. On the other hand, those of us who believe time has come and gone for those efforts, that's ok too.

This is where I'm at, I personally believe "legitimate" efforts to save City of Heroes are pretty much over. NCsoft has CoH cemented right where they want it and that's that.

I have faith our community will get us back in our City again. I believe we will have our own server someday, and I have hope that one of the Plan Z's will create something new. When it comes to anything that requires NCsoft's participation, for this player I have moved on.

[MakoMako]

Maybe I'm just more calloused than the average person, but I didn't find anything acidic in the way he spoke. It was blunt, yes. But nothing in there was directly insulting to anyone. But fair enough, delivery could've easily been what did it.

I've not moved on. I'm stubborn. So hopelessly stubborn in every way. I hate losing. But I also believe in the prospect that whenever someone pops up saying "This is going to fail" that, to me, sounds like something we should prove wrong to mutual benefit. Not freak out and call bullshit and overall proving to be the bigger troll.

I don't agree with Sleepy Wonder. But but these differences are what makes us a diverse community. And that's what I want to preserve.

[Segev]

Once again, I remind everybody here that we're all on the same side. If some of us are feeling down, out, or losing hope, it should not be with the firebrands of the Bolsheviks that we greet them, as if their show of insufficient zeal were a mortal betrayal. Instead, it is as wounded comrades in arms, injured in the line of duty in this emotional war of attrition. Stand with and support them; help them back from the front lines to recover. Support them however we can. If they nay-say, do not rebuke, but gently encourage.

[Lightslinger]

Once again, I remind everybody here that we're all on the same side. If some of us are feeling down, out, or losing hope, it should not be with the firebrands of the Bolsheviks that we greet them, as if their show of insufficient zeal were a mortal betrayal. Instead, it is as wounded comrades in arms, injured in the line of duty in this emotional war of attrition. Stand with and support them; help them back from the front lines to recover. Support them however we can. If they nay-say, do not rebuke, but gently encourage.

I appreciate the sentiment, but is it not OK for me to say "I'm not feeling down or wounded, I'm not losing hope. I've just come to the most realistic, for myself, conclusion and now my attention, love and support is elsewhere now."

I no longer believe #SaveCoH and TF Hail Mary's attempts to legitimately bring back CoH will work. Not for a lack of trying, it's the fact that NCsoft will not budge. That does not mean I'm in some way wounded or I've lost hope. I still have hope, its just in things where I've determined have a better chance of success.

Despite that I support anyone's efforts here to help our cause, be they with TF Hail Mary, #SaveCoH, Plan Z, Server Projects, whatever. I'm still here I just believe there are times and seasons for everything, what we do included.

[healix]

Keep the torches lit and held high, everyone......

[Segev]

I appreciate the sentiment, but is it not OK for me to say "I'm not feeling down or wounded, I'm not losing hope. I've just come to the most realistic, for myself, conclusion and now my attention, love and support is elsewhere now."

Then by all means, put that energy, attention, love, and support where you think it will best fit. Since you're still here, I do believe you when you say you still have hope for something.

I would encourage you to share that for which you do have hope, rather than focusing on what you no longer believe in. Not because it's wrong to have shifted your focus, but just because positive reasons to be excited are more what we need, in life in general as well as as a community, than negativity.

And yes, I would still say, let us not be turning on each other. We are not in this for some sort of ideological purity; we're here because we're a community. If people have found something over which to be joyful, even if it's not a direct pursuit of the community's collective stated goals, we should celebrate with them. Shared joy becomes greater.

[CG]

I have no objection to someone honestly thinking that the game won't come back.  However...

What I do expect from people is common sense, honesty and integrity. Especially from certain people in leadership positions around here. There are a lot of misinformed people on these boards due to the result of a lack of all three. Revealing this information would accomplish nothing and only serve to bring about more harm than good.

Accusations like this are damaging to the community.  Either talk to the people in question and convince them to speak up, or speak up yourself.  Casting aspersions and claiming nebulous 'secret information' is how you plant doubts.  Doubts lead to suspicion and that can be toxic.

Since either the accusations aren't true and can't be refuted or the people supposedly keeping the secrets won't speak up to refute them (because they're secret), there won't be a response. 

Please point your tin foil hat at NC Soft unless you have something concrete to bring forth about the leadership here.

[Lightslinger]

And I have in fact shared what I believe in, a lot actually. I believe the best chance at getting CoH back is in the private server initiative(s). As a person who can't code there's not a lot I can do, but in the event a server ever gets to the point where any other kind of help is needed, I'll be there.

And the Plan Z projects get my support as well. Being objective I definitely have my concerns about if its even possible to do what they're attempting, but I support the effort however I can.

[JaguarX]

Speaking of which, I hear murmors about a lot of "emulators" and or private servers" being worked on. Now, many say they are perfectly legal, and some say it's gray. It's mostly irrelevant but have a bit of relevancy in the upcoming question. Why are these so secret that even the people that it seemed to be made for have no idea who what when and where these "emulators" and or private servers are located, well that is besides SEGS which dont seem anywhere near finished yet? I mean if that is truely the best way, and I think it would be nice to have COX back even if it is in emulator and or private server or any other termed used to describe it, but what is the point if none know of their existance. Or is it something just made up to rile up the people that some view as naysayers?

I understand that some things might be or just said to be have to stay under wraps but it seem to be getting to a point where Everything is under wraps or relegated to unsubstantiated rumors that someone that know someone that know someone that know someone's uncle that know this guy in Russia that knows this Canadian that knows someone that might know something that he heard about in passing at an airport in Egypt from this guy that said he know someone's cousin that know someone dog sitter that knows someone in New York that may be working on something.

[LadyVamp]

I feel the need to address a few things here:

• Hope and Faith are what keep me going.  Without them, I would be terribly depressed about the loss of our great game.  And if that helps me, then let me be and don't try to convince me that I'm a fool.  All your doing is test your own patience.
• I hold no ill will towards anyone here.  This is clearly a very emotional subject for many here.  Let's respect each other here.
• To me, all are welcome.  Even those who think I'm a fool for having hope that our game will return in one form or another.  But if you think I'm a fool, let me live in my ignorance and I'll leave you to yours.
• The "smarter" part of me knows CoH will likely never be up again.  The "wiser" part tells me not to be so hasty in my judgment.
• And while we're on the subject of respect, keep in mind you read with YOUR emotions and not the emotions of the poster.  Please that in mind if no other thing I've said has touched base with you.

Now, all of that being said, Sleepy Wonder, it sounded to me like you were choosing to walk away.  I can't speak for anyone else here, but you're welcome to stay.

I do ask one favor of everyone here.  Clearly we're interested in getting our game back.  It is the driving force here.  Let's think about how we can succeed.  It's what our toons would do if they were flesh and blood.  So the ideas we've had so far either haven't worked or grew much bigger than we thought.  CoH wasn't built in one day and any major undertaking we do will be a mountain.  But if we stop looking at the mountain and start taking at each step one in turn, we will get there.  It will take us a long time.  Frankly, some of us won't survive the trip.  But, we will make it so long as we don't give up.

[Twisted Toon]

I feel the need to address a few things here:

• Hope and Faith are what keep me going.  Without them, I would be terribly depressed about the loss of our great game.  And if that helps me, then let me be and don't try to convince me that I'm a fool.  All your doing is test your own patience.
• I hold no ill will towards anyone here.  This is clearly a very emotional subject for many here.  Let's respect each other here.
• To me, all are welcome.  Even those who think I'm a fool for having hope that our game will return in one form or another.  But if you think I'm a fool, let me live in my ignorance and I'll leave you to yours.
• The "smarter" part of me knows CoH will likely never be up again.  The "wiser" part tells me not to be so hasty in my judgment.
• And while we're on the subject of respect, keep in mind you read with YOUR emotions and not the emotions of the poster.  Please that in mind if no other thing I've said has touched base with you.

Now, all of that being said, Sleepy Wonder, it sounded to me like you were choosing to walk away.  I can't speak for anyone else here, but you're welcome to stay.

I do ask one favor of everyone here.  Clearly we're interested in getting our game back.  It is the driving force here.  Let's think about how we can succeed.  It's what our toons would do if they were flesh and blood.  So the ideas we've had so far either haven't worked or grew much bigger than we thought.  CoH wasn't built in one day and any major undertaking we do will be a mountain.  But if we stop looking at the mountain and start taking at each step one in turn, we will get there.  It will take us a long time.  Frankly, some of us won't survive the trip.  But, we will make it so long as we don't give up.

I agree with all of this 100%.

In my life, I have seen and experienced things that others would say, "the chances of that happening are so remote as to be unpossible." Yet, miracles happen. Those memories of past miracles provides the foundation for my hope of future miracles. Its why I get right back up after the Universe slaps me down. While I have breath, I hope.

I get knocked down. but I get up again. You're never going to keep me down.

[Taceus Jiwede]

Calm down. For how long have we been buying that very same quote of "inside information" from Tony and Mercedes? You dismiss it here so easily just to discredit someone that you don't agree with, yet it's a-okay from people you do?

What's actually making me very sad as to where this topic has gone, is that Sleepy Wonder isn't even a nay-sayer nor unicorn. And yet there's already passive aggressive attacks and dismissal of his very stance on here. Anyone notice this? Sleepy did not, even once, say we shouldn't be doing anything nor is he advocating that everyone should follow him. All he's done is explain why he's lost a great deal of hope and while he -hopes- for the best, he is expecting the worst. As far as I'm concerned, that's a-okay, and I'm sure he would be very happy to be wrong.

The "inside information" he speaks of is genuine and is actually very much -known- among many people here. It doesn't bear repeating publically. I -don't- agree with Sleepy's opinion on the matter, for the record, and for the sake of everyone involved in that project and this topic, I think it's a really good idea if this thread be locked or if we drop that quote entirely and move on. This isn't a good way to keep civil, people.

*Starts a slow clap*

Sleepy, can you actually PM this info?  I don't ask to disprove or anything I am just curious and would like to see it to decide for my self.  I wont go spreading chaos don't worry, for personal knowledge only.

[Lightslinger]

Speaking of which, I hear murmors about a lot of "emulators" and or private servers" being worked on. Now, many say they are perfectly legal, and some say it's gray. It's mostly irrelevant but have a bit of relevancy in the upcoming question. Why are these so secret that even the people that it seemed to be made for have no idea who what when and where these "emulators" and or private servers are located, well that is besides SEGS which dont seem anywhere near finished yet? I mean if that is truely the best way, and I think it would be nice to have COX back even if it is in emulator and or private server or any other termed used to describe it, but what is the point if none know of their existance. Or is it something just made up to rile up the people that some view as naysayers?

I understand that some things might be or just said to be have to stay under wraps but it seem to be getting to a point where Everything is under wraps or relegated to unsubstantiated rumors that someone that know someone that know someone that know someone's uncle that know this guy in Russia that knows this Canadian that knows someone that might know something that he heard about in passing at an airport in Egypt from this guy that said he know someone's cousin that know someone dog sitter that knows someone in New York that may be working on something.

I'd imagine, if an up to date emulator is indeed being worked on, the group working on it wants as little attention as possible while they get everything set up. Until they have something up and running, and in a way that a NCsoft C&D will be meaningless, they risk everything by letting the world at large know what they're doing.

You may not have meant it this way, but your post is tearing down the idea of a private server and mocking it. If its what I've chosen to support as what I see is the best path back to CoH why does it deserve making fun of? I've said a lot I'll no longer be throwing my energy behind some projects here but I didn't disrespect those efforts either. Facts, history and precedent no longer support the idea of getting CoH away from NCsoft, what people have in those projects if faith. My faith being placed in the idea of a Community Server is no less valid. If anything precedent and history (with other games) support my faith in a reverse engineered server.

If a private server happens it will be thanks to a LOT of hard work by talented volunteers, they will (potentially) deserve our thanks, not being made fun of while they toil behind the scenes.

Edit: Before any PMs start asking me if I'm in on any private server work...I wish, ha. I know nothing about anything but SEGS, just hopeful and I keep an eye out for any hints or news about a possible, i23/24 private server. Anything I've said regarding it is pure rumor and conjecture, but dammit its my favorite kind of rumor and conjecture 

[JaguarX]

Nope not making fun of them, but your statement towards the end proves my point to the teeth.

"Anything I've said regarding it is pure rumor and conjecture."

It's like no one really knows. And if even the people the game is being made for doesnt know and only heard through a multiple sources being filtered down with no semblence of tangible evidence besides someone knowing someone that may or may not be working on it, hard to suppoert that kind of thing in any way even if it's said and done, and one finally say, "I'm here!" there might be reluctance in who is this person, is this just a trap for information, and where have they been all this time. Especially when you have people who basically seem very sure that all this is legal and anyone that say otherwise they make sure to yell them down and use the t word. Not always here but this isnt the only site I read. Meaning outside looking in, if they are that sure to the point where it's stupiud in their eyes to say it might be illegal or even gray, then why the big secreacy and worry of a C&D? Rhetorical. I know that answer. It's because in reality they dont know. But one thing they are doing though is making these projects seem a bit more shady than they really are.


It makes sense that they keep it under wraps if it's gray area of legal thing. So I guess it keeping under wraps because of the legal aspects, and wanting to avoid C&Ds means they know they would be bending the rules? If that is the case, then yes it would be best not much detail is said about it until it's too late. And even then it's risky. Napster been up and running for ages, then it went down in multimillions. But of course others cropped up. I hope when it do assuming one is being worked one somewhere and it dont turn out to be empty rumors someone ran with, it stays beneath their notice.


And as I said, I'm not making fun of anyone and even you said it's behind the scenes, you dont know yourself who is working on the private servers, and is pure rumor and conjecture. That was the whole point of my posting. Do anyone know anything for sure?