Author Topic: more blog attention for CoH  (Read 7951 times)

grumpyguy

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more blog attention for CoH
« on: April 17, 2013, 07:44:32 PM »

JaguarX

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2013, 07:51:21 PM »
The major theme of the post is the dangers of always-on DRM, which is a hot topic right now what with Sim City and the always-on XBOX kerfluffle.

But there are some kind words here for CoH, I thought someone might be interested.

http://rampantgames.com/blog/?p=5800

Dang. So sad but in the words of Metallica-Sad but true

Illusionss

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2013, 03:43:25 AM »
Quote
Pretty soon, almost every video game will be like that.  Dead, useless, gone from all but history.

The sad thing is, none of this is necessary. Not one bit of it. People get greedy and things get screwed up; the center does not hold.

This article is chilling, and I think as more people realize what these corporations are up to, online gaming may die a very nasty death. I just want Phoenix Project to be up and running, run by people who will not screw us over, and the rest of the gaming world will be irrelevant to me. All I want is one game I like. Run by people who are not greedy monsters. [Unless we can form a league and take 'em down for Phat L00t, y'know  8)]
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 03:56:34 AM by Illusionss »

Kistulot

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2013, 04:22:47 AM »
The sad thing is, none of this is necessary. Not one bit of it. People get greedy and things get screwed up; the center does not hold.

This article is chilling, and I think as more people realize what these corporations are up to, online gaming may die a very nasty death. I just want Phoenix Project to be up and running, run by people who will not screw us over, and the rest of the gaming world will be irrelevant to me. All I want is one game I like. Run by people who are not greedy monsters. [Unless we can form a league and take 'em down for Phat L00t, y'know  8)]

We all need to continue to support things which make us happy, and not support those jerky things! If a game is always online, don't buy it! Raise the rallying cry!
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Twisted Toon

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2013, 04:50:16 AM »
The sad thing is, none of this is necessary. Not one bit of it. People get greedy and things get screwed up; the center does not hold.

This article is chilling, and I think as more people realize what these corporations are up to, online gaming may die a very nasty death. I just want Phoenix Project to be up and running, run by people who will not screw us over, and the rest of the gaming world will be irrelevant to me. All I want is one game I like. Run by people who are not greedy monsters. [Unless we can form a league and take 'em down for Phat L00t, y'know  8)]
Look on the bright side, if either, or both, of the Plan Z's succeed and all the other games die because of corporate stupidity, then the Plan Z's will have a near monopoly on MMORPGs.  :P

At the very least, it will give a rag-tag team of game developers a chance to show the corporate world how to run a successful business the right way.  ;)
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Frostyfrozen

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2013, 08:17:30 AM »
This is getting out of hand and scary. If I pay money for a game I want the game damn it. And I not want some data miner selling my play info to a unknown party.

Segev

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2013, 01:07:18 PM »

Codewalker

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2013, 01:24:46 PM »
This is getting out of hand and scary. If I pay money for a game I want the game damn it. And I not want some data miner selling my play info to a unknown party.

It's been getting out of hand. I've been expecting an eventual industry-wide meltdown for a while now. The first hint came when I bought a Portal box in a store and got home to find out it required installing Steam and setting up an account to work, despite being a single player game. Then Modern Warfare 2 removed LAN server support and forced people to go through their matchmaking server.

It's only gotten worse since then, and it will take a few high profile services going offline forever before people start to wake up. The whole Playstation network fiasco clued a few in, but it wasn't severe enough to prompt a serious shift.

Illusionss

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2013, 03:05:46 PM »
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So, why do I describe this? Because I want to emphasize the reason why I don't object to the word "greedy" being used to describe a bad thing amongst businessmen. It is short-sighted, and leads to larger short-term gains (or at least expectations thereof) without regard for (or perhaps lacking understanding of) long-term consequences. It is greed that leads the owner of the goose that lays golden eggs to gut the creature to get at the gold within, rather than appreciating the steady income.

I expect to pay for my entertainment of course. I paid for CoX for years after all, and I also expect that there will be some back and forth between my computers and game servers, etc. People should be paid for what they create, and I would never suggest otherwise.

The reason I say "greed" is because these always-on schemes are all about selling your info to third parties. Its not really about providing a better service, its about selling you and what you do. You buy the game, but you dont really own it.

The thing I find really frightening is that these companies are continually monitoring your online activities, and if they even THINK you are "pirating" or if you say the wrong thing in a gaming forum about their product, all the sudden you dont have a game any more and you dont even get your money back. I dont trust these companies to act responsibly, not to mention the possibilty of error.

Its not the responsibility of some gaming company to be riffling through my computer to make sure that my activities meet their standards of responsible behavior. Its like something out of George Orwell, to be honest.

Codewalker

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2013, 03:13:30 PM »
The reason I say "greed" is because these always-on schemes are all about selling your info to third parties.

It's more than just that. Always-on, DRM, DLC, and requiring games to be tied to service accounts is also about circumventing the right of first sale.

Game publishers (and big media in general) don't like the fact that you can sell your used games to EB or GameStop or whatever, who can turn around and sell them to someone else without the publisher seeing a penny of it.

Nevermind that's how it's always worked with physical goods. They want every sale to go directly into their pockets. So they tie services and online accounts to the game, so that people who buy it secondhand either can't use those services, or in extreme cases play the game at all. Bonus points if they write language prohibiting account transfers into the service agreement allowing them to ban all the 'dirty cheaters' who buy used gamesshare accounts.

Segev

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2013, 03:29:08 PM »
To be fair, while I would be unsurprised if some of these companies further capitalize on the "always on" feature to get info to sell, the real impetus behind it is the fear of pirates. By requiring an "always on" connection, they have built-in DRM because their servers can validate that they did, in fact, sell that game that's talking to them. This is not doable if you can play it offline.

It's greedy in the greedy algorithm sense; it's the easy step to take to minimize piracy. It ignores all the other effects, including bad will amongst the customers. It also is misguided; pirates can turn off "always online" code in games that don't, in truth, need to be online in order to work. I'm pretty sure you could find cracked Sim City games that don't need an internet connection, if you are willing to look for pirated things.

On the other hand, it's no simple "crack" to get an MMO to work "offline." If there were, we'd all already have our personal offline versions of CoH to play, since there's no law against modding software you own for personal use (to my knowledge, anyway).

Quote from: Codewalker
It's more than just that. Always-on, DRM, DLC, and requiring games to be tied to service accounts is also about circumventing the right of first sale.

Game publishers (and big media in general) don't like the fact that you can sell your used games to EB or GameStop or whatever, who can turn around and sell them to someone else without the publisher seeing a penny of it.

Nevermind that's how it's always worked with physical goods. They want every sale to go directly into their pockets. So they tie services and online accounts to the game, so that people who buy it secondhand either can't use those services, or in extreme cases play the game at all. Bonus points if they write language prohibiting account transfers into the service agreement allowing them to ban all the 'dirty cheaters' who buy used gamesshare accounts.
In part, yes. But "right of first sale" gets very weird with electronic media.

100 years ago, if I bought a book, I could read it, and sell it to a used book store or to my friend or in a garage sale, and get money for it, and right of first sale said there was no problem with this.

But if I were to use my printing press (which, for argument's sake, I have - perhaps by virtue of being a publisher, professionally, myself) to print a copy of the book and sell it, there would be legal issues. Same is true 30 years ago if I used a Xerox machine to make copies and sold them. Even if I gave all authorial credit to the author, my printings being sold by me are not legal invocations of the right of first sale. Not even if I just give them away for free on a street corner or to my friends. (Which, at least, would still be limited by the fact that I have to pay for the materials, somehow.)

Electronic media are trivially copied. It's so easy that people will copy it to their own already-owned hardware without worrying about it. There's no material cost that people have to shell out for each copy. (At least, not non-recoverable at the sole cost of getting rid of the copy.) Right of first sale absolutely SHOULD protect your ability to sell the box with the disks in it to Gamestop or to your next door neighbor or to give it to your best friend when you are done with it. But in the age of digital downloads, transferring it means making a copy and giving that away, unless you give away the hard drive onto which you put your paid-for copy, itself. Even if you have all the good intentions in the world, and delete the copy you have after transferring possession of the new copy to the new person, it's hard to prove you didn't keep a copy of your own.

Worse, copies of e-media tend to be, for all practical purposes, just as good as the original. There's no "well, I think I'll still buy the version put out by the publisher because this sheaf of papers in a binder is an awkward way to carry around and read this novel."

So a legitimate concern over anti-piracy DRM is not preventing right-of-first-sale transfers, but preventing illegal copying. It still isn't done well, most of the time, but it's not about denying right of first sale. Not uniquely, anyway.


Now, a more interesting question: Why is there such a huge market for selling used games to Gamestop at a fairly significant loss, when they put it back up for only $5-$10 less than it was "new?" The real problem that makes publishers of videogames wince at the right of first sale lies there: People who are willing to spend money to buy the box of their game will wait for it to go up at a used game store. The game seller sold the game once, while Gamestop will sell it 4-20 times before somebody finally keeps it.

That's at least 2-3 sales that the publisher didn't get because his customers paid Gamestop for it.

We don't see this problem with the book and movie industries. So, why not? Why do people keep a book or a movie forever, but trade in their video games as soon as they're done with them? If one could answer that question, one would be on the way to finding a solution to the publishers' problem that doesn't involve hating the right of first sale. (Personally, I think they could pull it off by dropping the box price by about $10 on initial release, or dropping it two weeks after initial release by $10, or something. Drop it at about the rate that it would find its way onto used game store shelves, and stay with that competitor.)

dwturducken

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2013, 04:12:47 PM »
We don't see this problem with the book and movie industries. So, why not? Why do people keep a book or a movie forever, but trade in their video games as soon as they're done with them? If one could answer that question, one would be on the way to finding a solution to the publishers' problem that doesn't involve hating the right of first sale. (Personally, I think they could pull it off by dropping the box price by about $10 on initial release, or dropping it two weeks after initial release by $10, or something. Drop it at about the rate that it would find its way onto used game store shelves, and stay with that competitor.)

The only part I have a problem with is the bit quoted, but it could be from a regional difference. The used game, book, and movie stores are not individual instances. With a few exceptions, only book stores, which I'll get to in a sec, any one store is going to have all three, even to the point of carrying used VHS tapes. I still have a few VHS tapes, which my teenager watches on the old VHS machine that he has on his TV. The quality on some of them is terrible. Granted, the stores are not selling them for much, maybe a buck or two, but I still have yet to muster up the courage to buy one.

The exception, around here, is the couple of used book stores that have been around since a "personal computer" was a Commodore 64. Those stores, thankfully, have survived as exactly what they've always been: dealers in the delightfully musty old, often leather-bound, books. Maybe it's because I spend so much of my time, either professionally or recreationally, in front of a computer, but I'm glad that those places still exist.

And, for myself, I have never bought or sold a used game for myself. I've gotten a couple of used DS games for my son, but that also represents a medium that better fits into the "first right of sale" paradigm. It's much harder to share a game cartridge in the way we share music or video or whatever files with computers.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Sajaana

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2013, 04:26:14 PM »
It seems really simple to me.

These virtual worlds are addictive.  The people who play them are addictive personalities.  Now there's two ways to satiate the addicted.  You can either be a doctor and sell them a cure.  Or you can be a dealer and sell them doses of the addictive thing.

Selling someone a game is like selling them a cure.  You can exploit them for profit, but you can only exploit them one time.  Selling them a game separates the addled from the supplier.

But why do that, when you can have them dependent on you to supply them their fix?

It's much more profitable to keep the addled coming back to the supplier for his or her "regular fix."  Selling the customer a "service" doesn't separate the supplier and the addicted.  It makes the addicted depend on the supplier.  This not only gives the supplier what Hobbes called "continual felicity," but it also gives the supplier power.  The addled end up like people suffering from Stockholm syndrome: they defend the source of their "fix" even when they are abused or misled.

That's why you have DRM: to turn a transaction into a relationship.  And--like many relationships--it can be asymmetric.  Given the nature of this industry as a kind of vice industry, the supplier of the vice has the advantage.

Segev

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2013, 04:42:21 PM »
Ehh... I don't think that's a valid analogy.

The kinds of "always online" DRM that people actually get offended at are the artificial ones, like the latest Sim City, wherein it would be entirely possible to sell it for offline play. And far from defending their "supplier," people are angry, and pirates are already cracking things to "fix" the problem by removing the DRM and making it offline-playable.

MMOs could be made out to be closer to the "fix" being sold by a "dealer," but at that point, any ongoing service, from Netflix to a book-of-the-month club that uses dues to pay for the books sent to its members, is a "dealer," and that's a bit insulting to both customer and buyer, and it's without much merit.

(Problems do exist; don't get me wrong. But this characterization is poisonous and insulting to pretty much everybody on this forum.)

Illusionss

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2013, 06:13:52 PM »
Quote
Selling someone a game is like selling them a cure.  You can exploit them for profit, but you can only exploit them one time.  Selling them a game separates the addled from the supplier.

But why do that, when you can have them dependent on you to supply them their fix?

The long term problem is people going "These gaming companies want to turn me into an addict. I am not a drug addict, and I have no interest in a gaming company turning me into an addict of their products either. So..... what I will do is, I will not become an addict."

And then they decline to buy the game, just like how I am declining to buy three EA games right this minute.

I really had no idea CoX was going to be shut down like it was. I foresaw us eventually being told, "We are going to keep the game up and running, but this isnt the cash-cow it ought to be, so we are ceasing all new development. But we appreciate your business so we are going to host this for you, our loyal customers. Have fun and its been a great ride. BTW come check out our new MMO over here." I could have stood that; after all, we had the MA system in place - and I'd been running stuff like Seer Marino's "Wretch" arc for literally years.

But them yanking the game away like Lucy yanking away Charlie Brown's football every autumn..... that was just.... egregious....

So that is the new normal. And publishers monitoring my online activities is the new normal. I guess game publishers forgot what consumers did to the music industry when album prices got too high: we call that "an attitude adjustment."

I keep my books, and I keep my electronic media too. I have never traded in a game.... I dont know why people do this, but I wish these companies luck in their quests to re-bottle that particular genie. I have no interest in helping them do that.

I hope Phoenix project does not use DRM. I would probably tolerate it for their sakes. But having a bunch of other gaming companies monitoring me....? Um, no.

Illusionss

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2013, 06:23:06 PM »
This is just a hypothetical question of course: what would happen if Phoenix Project is humming nicely along, and some big studio decides that they want to step in and buy it, and the offer is pretty sweet? I like money, myself, and I cant blame others for liking it too. Would it depend on the company interested, or is this a never, no way ever sort of thing?

This kind of thing keeps me awake at night with fear.

Segev

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2013, 07:01:18 PM »
To be completely honest, it would depend on a lot of things. It is not our intention to leave this community out high and dry again in the future, so regardless of anything else, that would be a major factor in any such decision. (Of course, part of this will be solved by the strategies downix is working on to make sure that, should the Phoenix Project ever have to close its servers down, players will still own and be able to use the games they've bought. We may not be expecting for that sad day to come, but it would be foolish not to plan for it at least to the extent that we can to prevent our community from losing everything it's invested in it. Plan for the worst, hope for the best, y'know?)

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2013, 07:17:55 PM »
It's been getting out of hand. I've been expecting an eventual industry-wide meltdown for a while now. The first hint came when I bought a Portal box in a store and got home to find out it required installing Steam and setting up an account to work, despite being a single player game. Then Modern Warfare 2 removed LAN server support and forced people to go through their matchmaking server.

It's only gotten worse since then, and it will take a few high profile services going offline forever before people start to wake up. The whole Playstation network fiasco clued a few in, but it wasn't severe enough to prompt a serious shift.

Ever since gaming becamse a big business, it's naturally lost a lot of it's soul - to get that soul back, we need to drive big business out of gaming.
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Golden Girl

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2013, 07:24:01 PM »
But them yanking the game away like Lucy yanking away Charlie Brown's football every autumn..... that was just.... egregious....

So that is the new normal. And publishers monitoring my online activities is the new normal. I guess game publishers forgot what consumers did to the music industry when album prices got too high: we call that "an attitude adjustment."

That's what indie games have become - a strike back againt the corporate scum that have been polluting gaming for too long.
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Segev

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2013, 07:45:35 PM »
There's nothing wrong with big business. It's a natural outgrowth of specialization. The problem is when those running businesses lose sight of the fact that they're running something that has intricate ties to its industry and which produces value efficiently in order to profit from others' increased-efficiency value production. When they start to think of them as interchangeable money making boxes which are best managed to link up to government largesse with the intent of keeping competitors out entirely that they start to do evil.

In other words, when people who think business is evil start to run it, it turns that way. They will claim they are corrupted from their ideals by the business system, when in truth, it is they who have corrupted business in the name of living down to their ideals.

Golden Girl

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2013, 08:11:53 PM »
When business becomes too big, it becomes bad.
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Ironwolf

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2013, 08:38:23 PM »
Wow GG you really don't know how business works.

Large Corps actually in most cases drive prices DOWN, they also are often more open and accountable as they don't get as emotional about things as the customers do. This leads to yes some issues when it is entertainment and they make a game designed to hook you and pull you in - then cut it like NCSoft did. However in spite of how we feel really it was very unlikely closing this was done out of spite.

However on the corporate side of things DRM is useful as they see their brand new game hit the wide and within 24 hours it is hacked and available for free! This is after an investment of millions of dollars. I see their point but they are alienating the fan base of the games. I just truly believe that all games need to have a sunset plan in effect prior to release. Almost all games end - but it should be according to a clear plan.

dwturducken

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2013, 09:47:50 PM »
I think she's a victim of the few bad eggs ruining it for the rest of us. The problem in refuting her position is that we're seeing more and more bad eggs. Even Google, whose motto is "Don't be evil," is being seen as another Microsoft, and Microsoft is actually starting to soften its public image, almost in spite of Ballmer. :)
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Illusionss

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2013, 09:57:06 PM »
Yes, its not exactly like big business has went out of their way to endear themselves to the customer for the last few years. If they have a PR problem, its their own fault.

A recent example is many businesses cutting hours to below 30 hrs/week in order to duck out of paying health benefits. Really, its like Snidely Whiplash, or Boris from Bullwinkle, is running many of these big corporations.

Not to derail the thread with political talk, but you really could NOT make this stuff up. Then they wonder why the public is less than enchanted with their maneuvers/views them as villains.

Quote
However on the corporate side of things DRM is useful as they see their brand new game hit the wide and within 24 hours it is hacked and available for free!

You know that saying about how locks only keep honest people out? Same thing here. Good luck putting this genie back in the bottle, gaming companies. In fact, you done went and annoyed a whole bunch of very tech-savvy people. I know that will work out well....!

MaidMercury

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2013, 11:46:04 PM »
Wow GG you really don't know how business works.

Large Corps actually in most cases drive prices DOWN, they also are often more open and accountable as they don't get as emotional about things as the customers do. This leads to yes some issues when it is entertainment and they make a game designed to hook you and pull you in - then cut it like NCSoft did. However in spite of how we feel really it was very unlikely closing this was done out of spite.

Not all large corporations are the same. Microsoft did not deliberately keep fans playing 'Crimson Skies' after they stopped running a server and supporting it. They even allowed other Fans to run servers and continue enjoying it, albeit it's old tech today. I've played Star Trek Voyager Elite force on private servers.It's old, who cares?

NCsoft did something I have never seen before and that's purposely kill a game and keep it from having a second life via refusing to sell the second hand product to any would be buyers. It's beyond greed.
It's despicable to the Nth Degree.

TonyV

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2013, 09:28:39 PM »
Okay guys, I just blew away a bunch of messages.  If you want to rant about politics, there's a place specifically for that.

JaguarX

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2013, 10:07:52 PM »
Okay guys, I just blew away a bunch of messages.  If you want to rant about politics, there's a place specifically for that.

I thought Facebook was only for talk about what people ate last night, memes about the opposite sex, religion spam and ducklip pics?

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2013, 10:25:20 PM »
I thought Facebook was only for talk about what people ate last night, memes about the opposite sex, religion spam and ducklip pics?

Yep. Everyone knows that Yahoo News is the place to rant about politics.

There's still a difference though. We typically don't label and bite each other's heads off when we debate it here.

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Re: more blog attention for CoH
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2013, 11:36:24 PM »
Posted by Illusionss-I really had no idea CoX was going to be shut down like it was. I foresaw us eventually being told, "We are going to keep the game up and running, but this isnt the cash-cow it ought to be, so we are ceasing all new development. But we appreciate your business so we are going to host this for you, our loyal customers. Have fun and its been a great ride. BTW come check out our new MMO over here." I could have stood that; after all, we had the MA system in place - and I'd been running stuff like Seer Marino's "Wretch" arc for literally years.

But them yanking the game away like Lucy yanking away Charlie Brown's football every autumn..... that was just.... egregious....


My thoughts exactly - if NCSoft had kept the game in maintanence mode I would have kept paying to play and would have looked at buying other of NCSofts games.  I have never experienced all the content in the 8 years I played also I never leveled a Defender or a Controller to 50 and was working on both when they pulled my world away.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 10:43:22 PM by Optimus Dex »