Author Topic: I'm sure you all heard about it now...(Boston)  (Read 17000 times)

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: I'm sure you all heard about it now...(Boston)
« Reply #80 on: April 19, 2013, 10:22:24 PM »
I think people are people and at the time, from their actions is what makes them good or bad. Never can tell what is going on inside a person's head or the trouble or even if they are one facebook let down from snapping, building a bomb and blowing up something or offing themselves and taking as many as they can with them.

Yeah, given the Uncle's liberal use of the word, "Loser", I have to wonder if it's the first time he's used it to describe the kid.

Golden Girl

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Re: I'm sure you all heard about it now...(Boston)
« Reply #81 on: April 20, 2013, 12:44:11 AM »
A bit of a brief conspiracy rant now.

Maybe this is just attributed to people losing their wits after they realize the whole world is gunning for them (sort of like how shooting sprees tend to end with the shooter committing suicide). But does anyone else find it a bit strange how this police chase ended up happening?

We're talking about people who were smart enough to build, at least from what I can tell, the most technologically advanced IED's ever used on U.S. soil in recent years. They had enough money to accomplish that, to get guns with tons of ammo, and freaking grenades.

But after all of that, they can't be bothered to pay for a couple of hostess cupcakes, and instead hold up the store and risk attracting the attention of every law enforcement official in the whole city?

Something about that doesn't sit right with me.

The fact that they didn't appear to notice the CCTV in the area of the attack, or possibly thought that any images from them would be too blury to be any use might mean that they freaked out when they saw the images and how sharp they were.
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JWBullfrog

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Re: I'm sure you all heard about it now...(Boston)
« Reply #82 on: April 20, 2013, 12:45:50 AM »
NBC is now reporting that suspect 2 is in custody and alive.
 
Major appreciation for law enforcement in Boston area.
As long as somebody keeps making up stories for it, the City isn't gone.

FatherXmas

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Re: I'm sure you all heard about it now...(Boston)
« Reply #83 on: April 20, 2013, 03:22:06 AM »
A bit of a brief conspiracy rant now.

Maybe this is just attributed to people losing their wits after they realize the whole world is gunning for them (sort of like how shooting sprees tend to end with the shooter committing suicide). But does anyone else find it a bit strange how this police chase ended up happening?

We're talking about people who were smart enough to build, at least from what I can tell, the most technologically advanced IED's ever used on U.S. soil in recent years. They had enough money to accomplish that, to get guns with tons of ammo, and freaking grenades.

But after all of that, they can't be bothered to pay for a couple of hostess cupcakes, and instead hold up the store and risk attracting the attention of every law enforcement official in the whole city?

Something about that doesn't sit right with me.

Pfft.  Technologically advanced?  Let's see, download plans from internet, buy preasure cookers from Target (using stores as an example only), black powder at Carbela's, nails at Home Depot, model rocket engine igniters and digital RC parts at hobby shop.  It's an afternoon project.

Technologically advanced is to build an autonomous drone that drops ricin laced anti-personal caltrops on the marathon course and then flies out to sea until it runs out of fuel.

No this is at least one angry young man who had a beef with the world when his boxing career was derailed because he wasn't nationalized yet and may or may not have dragged his brother ("but he's family") into it.

What bugs me the most is the lack of an exit strategy.  They could have just been suicide bombers and got the "job" done but since they weren't you have to assume they wanted to survive so why stick around?  Admittedly vanishing right after it happens could draw attention but they had relatives in other parts of the country, it's easy enough to tell people closest to you that your relatives wanted you out of Boston or that you felt like you needed to see them due to the attack as a way to cover your sudden departure.

Maybe they didn't think they would have been identified so quickly.  Hopefully they will get some answers out of the younger brother.
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TimtheEnchanter

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Re: I'm sure you all heard about it now...(Boston)
« Reply #84 on: April 20, 2013, 04:20:26 AM »
Pfft.  Technologically advanced?  Let's see, download plans from internet, buy preasure cookers from Target (using stores as an example only), black powder at Carbela's, nails at Home Depot, model rocket engine igniters and digital RC parts at hobby shop.  It's an afternoon project.

I say most technologically-advanced because A. the bombs were given a lot more thought than most of the crazy things people have tried in the U.S. post-9/11 and B. they actually worked. I don't mean advanced in such a way that the military is scratching their heads wondering why they never thought of it.

I've been feeling there's more to this than just loading a pressure cooker with black powder and shapnel though. But maybe I'm giving modern pressure cookers too much credit (cheap low-quality metal vs. old-school cookware?). I've known people who had pressure cookers explode (being used as intended). Every-time they have, it has ended the same, with 90% of the food inside, AND the lid, embedded in the ceiling of the kitchen. To me this makes a pressure cooker seem more practical as a cannon than a bomb, unless they altered the frame somehow.

As for downloading the plans for making them, I would've thought that every downloaded copy of the Anarchist's Cookbook (or whatever the most popular "World Domination Guide" is these days) probably sends your IP straight to everything from the FBI to the NSA nowadays. I recall a lot of wannabe Jihadists in recent years getting caught before they could unleash their plans of doom, just because they visited some "how to incinerate your neighborhood in 5 easy steps" website.


FatherXmas

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Re: I'm sure you all heard about it now...(Boston)
« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2013, 06:07:13 AM »
Maybe he downloaded them from the free internet PC at the public library, or used the free internet at McDonalds/Starbucks/wherever.

The guide, which from what I read was published in a magazine a few years back, likely lists ways to reinforce the cover and to bypass the pressure cooker fail safes, which may not be that important when talking about the sudden increase in pressure a bomb generates.  Supposedly they found the cover of bomb two on the roof of a nearby building.

Here's the thing.  I hate it when the media reports something as "technologically sophisticated" when it's something anyone with a little bit of science/engineering knowledge from high school can do.  I was following the live stream during the day from a couple of Boston TV stations and honestly these people wouldn't understand how a car engine works in broad strokes even after you walked them thought it with a model.  It's like pouring water in a sieve.  These people would think a vinegar/baking soda volcano is "technologically sophisticated".  Just because the world is a great big mysterious place that you don't understand, don't assume everyone is just as naive as you are.  Yes your average smash and grab criminal is as dumb as rocks but don't assume they all are.

As for government agencies, hiring or listening to "lateral thinkers" isn't their strong suit.  In high school in the late 70s my high school library had a book of model rocketry from the 50s on the shelf.  Back then you didn't buy your engines at the local hobby shop, you made them.  The book contained the recipes and instructions and it was an end cap away from being a pipe bomb.  Heck the instructions warned you in no uncertain terms that the fuel mixture you were making could explode while making it if you weren't very careful and even if you succeeded in making it and pouring the mixture into your own engine casing, if the fuel mix doesn't solidify consistently or if the mix wasn't evenly mixed the engine is still likely to explode.  So surround the launch pad with 3 feet deep of sandbags and launch it 100ft away in another bunker make with 3 ft sandbag walls.  This was in my high school library.  Of course that's the last place you would find students but it was there.

And this is my concern.  They, the government and media, are going to start questioning the smart and clever people in society.  People who subscribe to Make.  Popular Mechanics.  The Do It Yourself crowd that have no problem assembling Ikea or their child's bicycle at Christmas.  Skills that your average hipster population wouldn't have clue one how to do because instructions are just too complicated like paying someone to have their DVR hooked up to their TV (it's one flip'n cable)!  Maybe I'm just a throwback to the era of Heathkits and Radio Shack 100 an 1 electronic project kits.  Home chemistry labs and rock polishers.  Of jarts, pitch backs and erector sets.  Children's toys that only needed a warning about severe burns and still could be sold

We punish the curious and discourage self learning.  We went from only being able to get buckets of Legos to single item kits you build once and play with or display.

Wow.  That derailed.
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Taceus Jiwede

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Re: I'm sure you all heard about it now...(Boston)
« Reply #86 on: April 20, 2013, 08:34:39 AM »
Quote
Maybe this is just attributed to people losing their wits after they realize the whole world is gunning for them (sort of like how shooting sprees tend to end with the shooter committing suicide). But does anyone else find it a bit strange how this police chase ended up happening?

I think you were on the money with this part.  Generally speaking most people would panic in this situation and would stop thinking clearly.  They already showed this by getting in a shoot out and throwing grenades.  While I am sure some information is being withheld who's to say there was a enough evidence against these guys to actually have them found guilty.  To be fair they were innocent into proven guilty, but that has gone out the window.  There most recent actions are an implication of guilt.  And if they weren't  at the very least they are guilty of evading police, the murder of police officer, and I am sure several serious felonies as well.  If they were smart they would of been long gone if they were guilty, and then scared pancake less with a good lawyer if they weren't.

Quote
Technologically advanced is to build an autonomous drone that drops ricin laced anti-personal caltrops on the marathon course and then flies out to sea until it runs out of fuel.
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« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 08:49:36 AM by Taceus Jiwede »

FatherXmas

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Re: I'm sure you all heard about it now...(Boston)
« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2013, 09:25:52 AM »
Oh, and the exchange of gunfire at the end when the cops first arrived at the boat.  What to bet it's the classic one officer accidentally discharged their weapon and EVERYONE open fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=796UFHldHM4#!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=irP5JdFpIwU
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dwturducken

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Re: I'm sure you all heard about it now...(Boston)
« Reply #88 on: April 20, 2013, 05:23:47 PM »
To be perfectly honest, I stopped following this thread as it A: it started to derail, and B: the "manhunt" turned into chasing down a scared kid. However, I did want to point out one thing: Since, the shutdown announcement, I've had a Google news alert set up for all things CoH, and the recent flurry of notifications was pretty uplifting, as the game got a sudden burst of press. This week, though, it changed entirely to posts about Boston, which struck me as a little disjointed.

Just thought I'd share. :)
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Segev

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Re: I'm sure you all heard about it now...(Boston)
« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2013, 06:48:03 PM »
To be fair, that "scared kid" had all of Boston on lockdown to find him, and participated in murdering at least 3 people and seriously, life-alteringly injuring 150 more.

This "scared kid" didn't have any problem leaving his little bomb right next to an 8-year-old boy, who no doubt would also have been a "scared kid" if he'd survived the blast. His slightly older sister was likely very scared, too, when she realized she lacked a leg she'd had only moments before.

I don't like characterizing this as "chasing a scared kid." This was a manhunt for a very dangerous man. A young man, but a man and a murderer. Attempted mass-murderer. Any pity he deserves should not in any way come over his suffering of consequences for his willfully evil actions.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: I'm sure you all heard about it now...(Boston)
« Reply #90 on: April 21, 2013, 11:36:12 PM »
Yeah, let's leave the "scared kid" perception out of the picture here.

Has the politically-correct "race to victim-hood" really reached such an extreme point now where people are even feeling sorry for HIM the moment he runs out of bombs and the tables turn? REALLY?

Granted, I guess there's a slight chance this wasn't the guy, and the cops ended up chasing two brothers all over the place who just happened  to be armed with not just guns, but also grenades. Innocent until proven guilty, and all that.

I don't know what has turned up since the capture though. I haven't heard a darned thing yet about homes being raided for evidence. All I've heard is "he's still sedated and not talking", and rant-fests from family members.

Segev

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Re: I'm sure you all heard about it now...(Boston)
« Reply #91 on: April 22, 2013, 12:33:56 PM »
The second-most disturbing thing about this, to me, is that the surviving brother apparently took the oath of citizenship - and thus became an American citizen - on Sept. 11, 2012. And then perpetrated this 7 months later.

These boys grew up here. They were inculcated in the most diverse school in Boston (it apparently boasts having some 83 different nations represented amongst its student body). Dzokar - the surviving brother - was six when he moved here. He should have been as American as any of the rest of us who grew up here. Growing up in Boston, Massachusetts, he should have grown up with the kind of swelling-of-the-chest pride that any child raised to love and respect the miraculous history of freedom and welcome that this nation has for all peoples.

Somehow, our education system failed him. Our education system taught him to hate America and what it stands for. This isn't some under-represented, abused foreigner who got short shrift from America; he had a coveted scholarship to this school, an education that prided itself on its diversity. So he must have learned how rotten, how evil, how undeserving of respect our culture is at least in part at our own schools.

I'm not anti-immigrant. But I am anti-anti-Americanism. And I know my schools, growing up, had this pervasive sense that our history was something of which we, as Americans, should be ashamed. That diversity - respecting others' cultures over and above our own - was all-important, and that we had to atone for our nation's past sins and welcome foreigners not by showing them our unworthy culture, but by showing them that we respected theirs and would not "oppress" it by expecting them to fit in here.

Well, we have proof that that not only doesn't work to make people love us around the world, but that it turns people who should have had every reason to be as American and freedom-loving as anybody reading this post into zealots willing to kill 8-year-olds waiting for their father at the finish line just to stick it to this rotten country.

I'm not blaming anybody but Dzokar and Tamarlane for this heinous act (unless and until evidence comes out that - heaven forbid - this was a larger conspiracy of terrorists), but there is no way a six-year-old child had so much hatred for this nation that he would grow up this way unless something in our own system that was educating him taught him to hate us, rather than welcoming him and teaching him to love his new home as a one-day-to-be fellow-citizen.

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Re: I'm sure you all heard about it now...(Boston)
« Reply #92 on: April 22, 2013, 01:10:54 PM »
Or it has nothing to do with anti-Americanism and more to do with the modern culture's veneration of murderers and psychotics. When you look at the media attention given to the likes of Charles Manson, Timothy McVey, or the Aurora Shooter (I never cared to learn that one's name)...it's not hard to see why some would try to mimic such things.

A great way to get famous is to get the news to notice you. How else could the Cardassians - who have done nothing of merit in the world outside the enslavement of Bajor - become the subject of news reports and magazine covers the world over?

...wait, sorry. I'm thinking of the Kardashians. Which means they didn't even enslave Bajor.

Why are they famous again?
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Segev

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Re: I'm sure you all heard about it now...(Boston)
« Reply #93 on: April 22, 2013, 01:43:56 PM »
Maybe film crews are secretly Bajoran?

Or it's all a Nemesi--er, Obsidian Order plot.

Minotaur

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Re: I'm sure you all heard about it now...(Boston)
« Reply #94 on: April 22, 2013, 03:21:32 PM »
The second-most disturbing thing about this, to me, is that the surviving brother apparently took the oath of citizenship - and thus became an American citizen - on Sept. 11, 2012. And then perpetrated this 7 months later.

<snip>

I'm not blaming anybody but Dzokar and Tamarlane for this heinous act (unless and until evidence comes out that - heaven forbid - this was a larger conspiracy of terrorists), but there is no way a six-year-old child had so much hatred for this nation that he would grow up this way unless something in our own system that was educating him taught him to hate us, rather than welcoming him and teaching him to love his new home as a one-day-to-be fellow-citizen.

Yes, but boys often look up to their big brothers. From what I've heard, big brother got radicalised and may have recruited little brother.

Segev

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Re: I'm sure you all heard about it now...(Boston)
« Reply #95 on: April 22, 2013, 04:14:04 PM »
That's a distinct possibility, Minotaur. I've not yet found word that Tamarlane was naturalized. If he was, then, um...why'd he go get radicalized after spending his formative years here, in the same environment as his little brother?

If he wasn't...then our immigration system is in need of serious reform, but more to increase enforcement of our laws, because that radicalization took 6 months in a foreign country. That's enough to get you sent to the back of the line or rejected for re-entry into the country by our current laws, and looking at where he spent those six months should have been big red flags.

downix

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Re: I'm sure you all heard about it now...(Boston)
« Reply #96 on: April 22, 2013, 04:26:52 PM »
Yes, but boys often look up to their big brothers. From what I've heard, big brother got radicalised and may have recruited little brother.
I'd also point out that in the video, the little brother was holding the second bomb, handed to him by the big brother, until *after* the first bomb went off. He was americanized, worshipped pop culture, the very things a radicalized elder brother may have looked down upon.

it is quite possible the younger brother was set up to be a casualty.

Segev

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Re: I'm sure you all heard about it now...(Boston)
« Reply #97 on: April 22, 2013, 04:37:04 PM »
Interesting take, downix. It would do my heart some good to hope that the boy is actually innocent, a victim of his brother's atrocity as well. But we will have to see. (He, um, tweeted something about "killing them like they killed my brother" after Tamarlane died, at least according to the news on the local radio, which is admittedly not reliable in heat-of-the-moment situations as they were when I heard it. But by that snippet, I have a heavy heart and heavier doubts about Dzokar's innocence.

In a tragicomic bit of conicidence, "Dzokar" is actually pronounced to sound similar to "Joker.")

Rust

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Re: I'm sure you all heard about it now...(Boston)
« Reply #98 on: April 22, 2013, 09:03:23 PM »
I love how in modern society, you can be the most wanted man in the country and still have enough time to tweet about it from your smartphone.
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dwturducken

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Re: I'm sure you all heard about it now...(Boston)
« Reply #99 on: April 22, 2013, 10:42:30 PM »
The second-most disturbing thing about this, to me, is that the surviving brother apparently took the oath of citizenship - and thus became an American citizen - on Sept. 11, 2012. And then perpetrated this 7 months later.

This is the kind of stuff that will get the thread locked, and, worse, I'm going to respond to it.



I'm not saying that the kid is blameless, but I have two boys, and I'm also one of two boys. I can personally attest to little brothers doing some really stupid shit to impress their big brothers, and believing just about anything in pursuit of that goal.
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