Jack Emmert: City of Heroes had 180,000 subscribers

[Peregrine Falcon]

In a recent interview with Gamefront, Jack Emmert said: "If you were a gaming person, it seemed like everyone was talking about City of Heroes, and everyone played it. At our peak, we had 180,000 subscribers."

I'm guessing that he's talking about 2004, shortly after launch but before World of Warcraft.

Is this new info? I never realized that City of Heroes had that many subscriptions at any point.

[Aggelakis]

In a recent interview with Gamefront, Jack Emmert said: "If you were a gaming person, it seemed like everyone was talking about City of Heroes, and everyone played it. At our peak, we had 180,000 subscribers."

I'm guessing that he's talking about 2004, shortly after launch but before World of Warcraft.

Is this new info? I never realized that City of Heroes had that many subscriptions at any point.

This is definitely not new info. He's talking about shortly after CoV released.

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png (see the bump just at the end of 2006)

[Intone]

For business modeling purposes for the Missing Worlds Media and Heroes/Villain projects, it would be interesting to know if there are stats out there for average dollar spend per active account for micro-transactions.  Not sure which route those projects are taking -- pure subscription, FTP, or hybrid.  Although with the market moving overall toward free-to-play and hybrid (combination of subscription and FTP, like we ended up with at COH) having some spending ratios would be useful for revenue forecasting insight.

[Ironwolf]

I don't have those numbers and doubt NCSoft would share them but War Witch said after the closure - I don't know why they closed us we were doing so well now!

I know for me as a subscriber I was spending the $15 a month + at least $25 in store goodies.

[Rotten Luck]

Well we can come to an idea how many there was before shutdown.  AP33! 

I don't have the numbers but how many players have to be in zone before it spawns a new instant?  Times that by 32 add some more for those on 33 and other zones. 

Then you do more math.  How many players does it take to max a server?  If someone had a screen shot of the Rally server lists we can do the math that way.

Won't be a full account but be a good idea of what kind of numbers we were getting at the end.

[JaguarX]

Well we can come to an idea how many there was before shutdown.  AP33! 

I don't have the numbers but how many players have to be in zone before it spawns a new instant?  Times that by 32 add some more for those on 33 and other zones. 

Then you do more math.  How many players does it take to max a server?  If someone had a screen shot of the Rally server lists we can do the math that way.

Won't be a full account but be a good idea of what kind of numbers we were getting at the end.

oh yeah. It surprised the hell out of me how many were still around and or came back. At first I was wondering "Wow, look at all these people! Wait, where the hell were these people all this time? Even in virtue atlas or any other zone rarely went above 5."

Kind of reminded of if a club (legal and non-violent) club decides to shutter the doors because participation dwindled over the years and now 65 members show up and support the club on a week to week basis. Then on the last day 54,000 with club cards show up.

And like that although curious of where these people been, I'm so glad they showed up in force. It would have been fairy tail ending if NCSOft saw this amount of people still around and decided "You know what, look at that showing. We cant close down." and let it live. Yet, then the flip side is that some say great appreciation only can come when you actually fall into death and return. Then you appriciate everything even down to every breath you take. Yet, some people appreciate then after a while fall back into the regular routine until the next time death is staring them in the face.

[Ad_Astra]

Well, I know that for me, the event that resulted in AP33 was a time when I created a character solely for the purpose of participating in the event. I avoided Virtue during most of the 8 years I was playing. I kept the character in order to also participate in the Million Hero Marches.

So remarking "Where were you guys before now?" might get the answer that we were happily playing on Infinity or Liberty or Protector, etc. etc. And I was on Infinity when the final server disconnect happened.

[TimtheEnchanter]

CoH had a LOT of world space to begin with anyhow. Just the odds of blindly flying around any zone looking for another soul wouldn't stand much of a chance of catching them. Even in PvP.

Then there's the instanced zoning. Anyone who just logs on to do content, rarely will be seen out in the open except when running between missions.

[TimtheEnchanter]

I don't have those numbers and doubt NCSoft would share them but War Witch said after the closure - I don't know why they closed us we were doing so well now!

From what I remember reading about how the NCstore worked (someone tell me if this has been debunked now) NCsoft only tracked the total microtransactions for all of their games, and did not keep tabs on what sales came from what game. This was allegedly done to maintain a certain level of opacity, between either NCsoft and game developers, or between NCsoft and the public, or both. And if certain monetary figures just happened to 'disappear' nobody would ever catch it.

[JaguarX]

CoH had a LOT of world space to begin with anyhow. Just the odds of blindly flying around any zone looking for another soul wouldn't stand much of a chance of catching them. Even in PvP.

Then there's the instanced zoning. Anyone who just logs on to do content, rarely will be seen out in the open except when running between missions.

Good points, and Ad_astra too.

I'm used to the days when even in Victory and Liberty you would see people passing by on their way to missions or coming out of one or standing around especially in Atlas. Even the zone chat would be lively. After a while the zone chats died down in most servers I been to besides Virtue and Freedom, I stopped running into folks when prior I ran into people all the time dozens of them victory server even off peak, even on villian side. After a while villains were dead zone even in compare of what it used to be in Virtue. Last couple of months I played villians Virtue side I ran across three other people when prior I ran across at least three people per quarter hour.  I is very possible people stopped talking and bee lined straight to missions and stopped talking in the channels. Even when I visited other servers it's like there were one or two tight knit group of friends and a few outlayers and that was it. My victory SGs, all five I joined widdled down from full to one or two. Only server that had anyone still playign regularly in the dozens of SGs/VGs (none two of my toons were in the same SG/VG. Most of them didnt like each other by storyline.) were the ones on Victory and Freedom. But again maybe people just went underground and /hide. But like anything, I cant count hidden people anymore than concensus cant count people who dont participate (Unofficial pop of El Paso 800,000. Official is about 500,000. It was a big upraor but as they said (concensus people) they only can count those that want to be counted and participate.) I can only judge by what I see and it seemed to me, the population on many servers were very small until the very end.

[Kederren]

How ironic is it that, when we had few communications tools available, so many players complained that they did not want to have to "hear" others' "conversations": then when the tools became available, so many players used them that the silence became deafening.

[doc7924]

So if they had 180,000 subscribers - say before they went free - that's $14.95 x 180,000 = $2,691,000 a month just in monthly dues, which doesn't include all the optional content which could have added a lot.

I'm not sure what it cost to run the game with salaries, expenses and all but that's a lot for just one month.

[JaguarX]

So if they had 180,000 subscribers - say before they went free - that's $14.95 x 180,000 = $2,691,000 a month just in monthly dues, which doesn't include all the optional content which could have added a lot.

I'm not sure what it cost to run the game with salaries, expenses and all but that's a lot for just one month.

Yeah and I think one chart they were raking in about 14 million a quarter or about a little over 5 million a month but again ncsoft may have fabricated their entire coh earnings

[FatherXmas]

So if they had 180,000 subscribers - say before they went free - that's $14.95 x 180,000 = $2,691,000 a month just in monthly dues, which doesn't include all the optional content which could have added a lot.

I'm not sure what it cost to run the game with salaries, expenses and all but that's a lot for just one month.

Yes they had 180,000 subscribers before they went free ... in the 3rd quarter of 2006.  The last data point on MMO charts was 4th quarter 2008 and the game was down to 125-130,000.  I don't mind a discussion on this but quit cherry picking data points and obfuscating when that was.

All that Jack said that back when the game was still at Cryptic, they hit 180,000.  That's before before Nov 2007, nearly 5 years before the plug was pulled.

[JaguarX]

Yes they had 180,000 subscribers before they went free ... in 3 quarter of 2006.  The last data point on MMO charts was 4th quarter 2008 and the game was down to 125-130,000.  I don't mind a discussion on this but quit cherry picking data points and obfuscating when that was.

All that Jack said that back when the game was still at Cryptic, they hit 180,000.  That's before before Nov 2007, nearly 5 years before the plug was pulled.

Yeah. Population wise those were great times.

[Ironwolf]

Positron said they had 60,000 subs at the end + F2P folks.

He said it was the largest active game ever shutdown - so far - NCSoft has some new titles they can shutter now and break that record.

[JaguarX]

Positron said they had 60,000 subs at the end + F2P folks.

He said it was the largest active game ever shutdown - so far - NCSoft has some new titles they can shutter now and break that record.

that equates to about 900,000 a month with constant sub. Cant remember the total month to month as stated and according to some but that is a lot of money f2p and sub people spent on items in game.

[FatherXmas]

that equates to about 900,000 a month with constant sub. Cant remember the total month to month as stated and according to some but that is a lot of money f2p and sub people spent on items in game.

But how many of us were on the 7+1 or 12+2 plans?  The 12+2 came out to be about $10.25 a month and the 7+1 was $11.10 a month.  That drops it to $615-666K per month.

[HEATSTROKE]

however I believe if my memory serves correct Posi said CoH made more money as a hybrid model than it did when it was just a subscriber model which is one reason they were able to hire more staff and put out more content..

[FatherXmas]

however I believe if my memory serves correct Posi said CoH made more money as a hybrid model than it did when it was just a subscriber model which is one reason they were able to hire more staff and put out more content..

Well according to the 2Q 2012 income numbers for CoH (IF YOU CAN TRUST THEM  ) the game had income of about $2.5 million which is over $800K a month.  But that number isn't all that different from a year before (2Q 2011) when the game was subscription only.  There was a bump in 4th quarter 2011, Freedom went live in Sept so 4Q was a full quarter of the game under the new model, but the bump only brought it up to $3 million.

[JaguarX]

But how many of us were on the 7+1 or 12+2 plans?  The 12+2 came out to be about $10.25 a month and the 7+1 was $11.10 a month.  That drops it to $615-666K per month.

ah yes. Forgot about those.

[Defcon Kid]

 

I don't have the numbers but how many players have to be in zone before it spawns a new instant?  Times that by 32 add some more for those on 33 and other zones. 

Then you do more math.  How many players does it take to max a server?

Afaik there was a cap of 50 players to make an instance to spawn a new one, that's at least the people allowed in RWZ for Raids before it spawned RWZ 2, 3, etc... so 33 x 50 = 1.650... plus all those standing in the other servers, or playing normal missions, so easily up to 2.000 - 2.500 people might've been online that moment if my estimations are correct.

[srmalloy]

Afaik there was a cap of 50 players to make an instance to spawn a new one, that's at least the people allowed in RWZ for Raids before it spawned RWZ 2, 3, etc... so 33 x 50 = 1.650... plus all those standing in the other servers, or playing normal missions, so easily up to 2.000 - 2.500 people might've been online that moment if my estimations are correct.

RWZ and the Hive were capped at 60, but I believe that one of the devs alluded to the regular zone limit being about 100. This is working purely from memory, though.

[Codewalker]

Only a few zones were 100, Pocket D was one. Most of the city and hazard zones were 75 post-freedom, Atlas Park included. RWZ, The Hive, and The Abyss were 50.

Unity Rally had 2,600 on Virtue (maxed), and around 4,300 total logged in at the height of the event, but not all of those were there for the rally. I'd estimate around 3,500 - 4,000 who were there for the event.

[srmalloy]

Only a few zones were 100, Pocket D was one. Most of the city and hazard zones were 75 post-freedom, Atlas Park included. RWZ, The Hive, and The Abyss were 50.

It was much higher in the early days; I recall it taking something on the close order of 250 people in The Hive to spawn The Hive 2 -- although I participated in back-to-back Hami raids where we filled The Hive, spawned a second instance with Hamidon up (since he was on a timer, this was an opportunity not to be wasted), had someone who was double-boxing stick a placeholder there to keep it open, ran the Hami raid in the first instance, then trooped over to the second instance to run a second raid immediately afterward.

Of course, this was back when you got your HOs by getting the defeating hit on one of the Hamidon Buds that spawned after Hami went down, so the rewards were not evenly distributed... but it was still entertaining to run a pair of raids in quick succession.

[Surelle]

The whole joke here is that I can name you probably 20 MMOs off the top of my head, without even trying, that have got to have LESS than 100,000 players never mind playing customers than CoH did when it was shut down....and they're all still up and running!

Don't believe me?  Let's see....  Saga of Ryzom.  Allods.  Anarchy Online.  Dark Age of Camelot.  Warhammer Online.  Hellgate:  London (now Hellgate:  Global).  A.P.B.  Gods & Heroes.  Age of Conan.  Pirates of the Burning Sea.  Vanguard.  Everquest 1.  Everquest 2.  Lineage 2.  Guild Wars 1.  R.O.H.A.N.:  Blood Feud.  Dungeons and Dragons Online.  Lord of the Rings Online.  Asheron's Call 1.  Asheron's Call 2. 

Not to mention that I more than suspect a lot of other newer games like The Secret World, Rift and Path of Exile are barely breaking that mark, or have similar player numbers/financial breakdowns to what CoH had in its final months.

Heck, I'd be surprised, after the Real Money Auction House and always-online DRM fiasco that were Diablo III, if even D3 sported many more players than that these days, lol.

[JWBullfrog]

I've always thought that 100K regular players (free or otherwise) was a pretty good number. Yes I know there are a thousand reasons that can be given by business types why that's not enough, but the fact still is that you have 100,000 customers.  Any company worth it's salt will figure out a way to work with that.
 
 

[Ironwolf]

I agree 60,000 + subs is a nice healthy living if you were only supporting the one game and slowly working on part 2.

[JaguarX]

The whole joke here is that I can name you probably 20 MMOs off the top of my head, without even trying, that have got to have LESS than 100,000 players never mind playing customers than CoH did when it was shut down....and they're all still up and running!

Don't believe me?  Let's see....  Saga of Ryzom.  Allods.  Anarchy Online.  Dark Age of Camelot.  Warhammer Online.  Hellgate:  London (now Hellgate:  Global).  A.P.B.  Gods & Heroes.  Age of Conan.  Pirates of the Burning Sea.  Vanguard.  Everquest 1.  Everquest 2.  Lineage 2.  Guild Wars 1.  R.O.H.A.N.:  Blood Feud.  Dungeons and Dragons Online.  Lord of the Rings Online.  Asheron's Call 1.  Asheron's Call 2. 

Not to mention that I more than suspect a lot of other newer games like The Secret World, Rift and Path of Exile are barely breaking that mark, or have similar player numbers/financial breakdowns to what CoH had in its final months.

Heck, I'd be surprised, after the Real Money Auction House and always-online DRM fiasco that were Diablo III, if even D3 sported many more players than that these days, lol.

Any of them owned by NCSoft and American based?

[downix]

Any of them owned by NCSoft and American based?

Yes, a big one:  Guild Wars

[JaguarX]

Yes, a big one:  Guild Wars

yup. Guild Wars. The usual MMO fare, good game but nothing much outstanding from the rest of the thousands of grind fantasy game.

Yet, COX was chosen. The only one basically of it's kind in their entire line up.


They may not see it now, but I think eventually games that give creative freedom like COX will become more standard, yet, they had a big head start and squandered it. I think by the time they realize what they have done, they will have to fight a up hill battle to gain a foothold again when they could have been the ones that owned the hill. COX just was ahead of it's time.


Why the feeling of MMOS losing ground? Because people are tiring of the same ole elf and sword storlines grind for gear games that all look alike. And it seems that NCsoft is placing all of it's eggs in one basket like GM did with the SUVs.

[Absolute]

The whole joke here is that I can name you probably 20 MMOs off the top of my head, without even trying, that have got to have LESS than 100,000 players

A.P.B.

What?

APB hit 3 million players. They've never dipped anywhere near 100k. (http://venturebeat.com/2011/12/15/previously-a-dud-relaunched-apb-game-gets-3-million-users-in-a-week/)

Unless you meant the original one, which made the studio bankrupt.

I agree with your point though. A lot of MMOs with similar populations haven't been closed, and for a good reason.

[General Idiot]

You know... APB did that well on a relaunch. Has there been any other game that relaunched and didn't do extremely poorly? Because that seems like something we should be using as an example.

[downix]

You know... APB did that well on a relaunch. Has there been any other game that relaunched and didn't do extremely poorly? Because that seems like something we should be using as an example.

At this time, they're the only one with enough time to tell. Asheron's Call 2 and Final Fantasy XIV are both coming out, again, soon, so we will see how things go.