Walking Dead - Season 3 Finale Thoughts?

[FatherXmas]

Threw this up as a starting point, it's been a while.

Carl.  I have two thoughts about what happen.  One, if the guy simply dropped the rifle, there wouldn't have been any problem.  However it looked to me, and probably directed as such, that the guy didn't think Carl would pull the trigger and was trying to get close enough to disarm Carl.

Second, Carl may have subconsciously though of him as a potential rival for Maggie's sister Beth.  Better nip that in the bud right there.

[Lothic]

Carl.  I have two thoughts about what happen.  One, if the guy simply dropped the rifle, there wouldn't have been any problem.  However it looked to me, and probably directed as such, that the guy didn't think Carl would pull the trigger and was trying to get close enough to disarm Carl.

I could see where Hershel might think Carl shot that guy "in cold blood" but I sort of have to take Carl's side in this case.  If that guy was going to comply it should have only taken him about one second to drop his gun.  Instead the guy kept holding his gun and Carl gave him at least 5 full seconds before he decided the guy was -not- going to play nice.  To his mind Carl was simply protecting himself and the others from an obvious black-n-white threat.

It's interesting to see how Carl's method of dealing with "outsiders" is becoming almost identical to how the Governor operates.  It's a pure "kill or be killed" mindset.  In this episode both the Governor and Carl were faced one-on-one against guys with guns and both the Governor and Carl reacted mercilessly to kill those challenges.  And it's interesting that both the Governor and Carl justified their methods by telling others that "if I had only been this brutal sooner I could have saved people I care about".  I think the key difference between the arc of these two characters will be that Carl still has family and friends who care about him whereas the Governor is facing all these inner demons alone.  Perhaps Carl's cold ruthlessness will be tempered well enough that he won't turn out to be completely psychopathic as he grows up.

Second, Carl may have subconsciously though of him as a potential rival for Maggie's sister Beth.  Better nip that in the bud right there.

Carl and Beth might end up having a thing for each other but I don't really think he was consciously thinking about this guy being a "romantic rival" like that in the heat of the moment.  I think Carl was operating more in a generic "cave man" mode where it was his tribe versus the other.  Carl was protecting his people in general, not just her specifically.  I don't discount that he might have boyish feelings for her like you suggest - I'm just not sure he's quite mature enough to be directly thinking about her in those terms yet.

[Mental Maden]

I think Carl's speech to Rick said it all.  He's seen the error of taking the safe route and he wasn't about to let it happen.  Also he's a little boy that's having to grow up way too fast and expected to make decisions most adults wouldn't get right.  Was he a little trigger happy?  Probably, but that other kid made the mistake of being too slow complying with a kid not afraid to use a gun.

And I will say they did a good job of building Michonne's character in the last half of the season.  (See my previous posts relating to her)

[Mandu]

Carl=Shane 2.0

Andrea=Dale 2.0  And I'm thankful she didn't last as long in that role as he did.

[Sleepy Wonder]

He should have dropped the gun as he was told, rather than trying to hand it to him. Whether or not he was attempting to get closer to call Carl's bluff is irreverent. I'd be more concerned about a child pointing a gun at me than an adult, but that's just me. It seems like in most movies and such, whenever this is the case, the child is always taken advantage of and gets disarmed quite easily because they don't have the 'guts' to pull the trigger.

Maybe in the real world this might have some truth to it, but children often don't think about consequences and don't have the discipline adults to to judge certain minute actions. If Carl was an adult, he probably would have told the guy to stop moving and to drop it at least once more rather than just pulling the trigger in that split fight or flight second.

And this to me, is what separated Carl's actions from what someone like Rick would have done (police training, last resort, discipline, etc)

I don't think Carl really had the time to analyze everything in that moment, but afterwords, justified it by what he told Rick. It's probably true, and it could have easily been processed subconsciously in his mind then. This is a zombie apocalypse after all.

That said, I preferred the prior episode in terms of entertainment and tension. It seemed like they focused to heavily on Andrea's imminent demise, and the situation wasn't very original enough for me to be on the edge of my seat. The SAW movies pretty much revolve around the theme of what occurred in that room to some extent.

While sad to see a longtime member of the original group go, this is pretty much a show about people getting offed for the bad choices they make (most of the time, anyway), and Andrea had it coming for a long, long time.

I hope we can see a new scene in the future, as the Prison is getting a little stale, and without the threat of Woodbury, I have to wonder where the show's direction will go.

Some of the most exciting episodes were when they went to try and find out the cause of the infection. I'd like to see more lore involved about that.

[FatherXmas]

Well the Governor and his two lackey's are on a road trip from hell right now.  Now if I were them I would pop him the first chance they get, however he might be able to talk his way into another group and they can tag along.  Decisions, Decisions.

Because of that the Governor may be back.  Mid-season surprise?

[Taceus Jiwede]

Well the Governor and his two lackey's are on a road trip from hell right now.  Now if I were them I would pop him the first chance they get, however he might be able to talk his way into another group and they can tag along.  Decisions, Decisions.

Because of that the Governor may be back.  Mid-season surprise?

I thought of this my self.  In fact they should of popped him the second he opened fire.  Martinez even looked sick to his stomach.  Also for Carl I may not remember but didn't they ask him to "Hand over the gun" perhaps he was doing it slowly so they wouldn't think he was trying to pull anything.  I think Carl was trigger happy but he has seen a lot of people die because mercy.

Carl=Shane 2.0

Andrea=Dale 2.0  And I'm thankful she didn't last as long in that role as he did.

Lol that is funny and a really good comparison.  Although I really liked Dale's character and Andrea's later character.  I like the whole "We can't lose our humanity" aspect they are trying to hold onto.  Just cause the world is full of monsters doesn't mean we have to be monsters.  Although maybe it does.......

I hope I don't end up hoping for Carls death the way I hoped for Shanes demise.  However much like Merle I found my self actually kind of sad after the death of these two "anti-heroes."

[Lothic]

Carl=Shane 2.0

I agree that Carl (like Shane) is willing to do the "dirty things" that are needed to survive in this post-ZA world.  But I think a key difference between Carl and Shane is that Carl seems to have a strong sense of loyalty to the group.  Shane clearly had no problem sacrificing/threatening -anyone- else for his own survival while Carl on the other hand is only brutally merciless against "outsiders".  Case in point I don't see Carl ever knee-capping a friend in order to save himself from Walkers like Shane did.  Carl might still outrun his friend, but he would only turn around to shoot him -after- he was dog-piled to put him out of his misery.

I don't think Carl really had the time to analyze everything in that moment, but afterwords, justified it by what he told Rick. It's probably true, and it could have easily been processed subconsciously in his mind then. This is a zombie apocalypse after all.

I think this one phrase makes all the difference in the world when it comes to explaining Carl's actions.

Sure Carl is still a kid and perhaps there might have been a more mature way to handle the confrontation than shooting the guy point-blank in the face and yes he did lie to his father about the details afterwards.  But I still contend that Carl had already "analyzed" the situation and acted accordingly, even if it may have seemed overtly brutal to us.  Remember these Woodbury people were there for only one reason - to kill everyone that Carl cares about.  Carl had already decided that too many loved ones had died because he had not acted decisively in the past and he was determined to not let it happen again.

Ultimately while we may judge Carl's choice to shoot as excessively trigger-happy I think given the extreme circumstances (and new morality) of the post-ZA world that his "kill first" choice was at the very least justifiable.

I hope we can see a new scene in the future, as the Prison is getting a little stale, and without the threat of Woodbury, I have to wonder where the show's direction will go.

Some of the most exciting episodes were when they went to try and find out the cause of the infection. I'd like to see more lore involved about that.

I'd also like to find out a bit more about the Infection and the rest of the world in general.  I don't need Rick-n-company to be able to find a miracle cure and/or save the world by themselves.  But I would like them to follow up on some of the ideas they've hinted at like are the Walkers herds eventually going to rot away and allow the surviving humans to be able to adapt to a new "normal" as pre-zombies?  Maybe they'll imply that years from now civilization will make a comeback with just the extra consideration that anyone who dies has to be properly disposed of by the WSA (Walker Safety Administration) to keep living humans safe from disorderly Walker attacks.

Because of that the Governor may be back.  Mid-season surprise?

An article from imdb.com already confirmed that the Governor will be back in Season 4.  No details of how involved his character will be, just that he will be back.

[Arnabas]

I have a question not related to the finale, but the series in general: why do walkers have such soft skulls? I am always amazed at how easily arrows and knives go through walker heads. They are soft enough that stomping on a fallen walker's head doesn't just fracture the bone, but turns the entire head to mush. The other bones in the body seem unaffected; if they were as soft as the skull, any walker who was wrestling with someone to bite them would probably have their arms snap like twigs.

Is it the same in the comic?

[Lothic]

[Kaos Arcanna]

The thing that gets me is that you HAVE to be willing to accept newer members because sooner or later you are going to run out of "old" members.

[Taceus Jiwede]

I suppose if you wanted to try to come up with some kind of pseudo-scientific explanation you could maybe assume that a side-effect of the virus animating the Walkers causes their bones to get brittle, but that wouldn't really explain why freshly risen Walkers instantly have eggshell-thin skulls. *shrugs

Maybe because the virus only works in their brain stem it some how has made their brain mushy in which directly causes the skull to get softer.  Its a long shot but I thought I would try.  I also think its funny that while their heads become as weak as eggshells, their fingernails and teeth become like swords made of the finest and strongest metal.  They can rip a person open with the slightest of ease.

The thing that gets me is that you HAVE to be willing to accept newer members because sooner or later you are going to run out of "old" members.

  I agree.  That is why I liked Dale and Andrea so much because they were fighting to restart civilization and have the human race survive and not just the individual survive.  As far as we have seen only 1 person has been born and a WHOLE BUNCH have been killed.  The walking dead world is losing humans at an alarming rate.  They need to work together or they face extinction.  But so far only Dale and Andrea have been the "big picture" thinkers of the show it seems.  But it takes a little chaos before order can be restored lets just hope they don't end up killing all the people trying to restart the world!

[Lothic]

I also think its funny that while their heads become as weak as eggshells, their fingernails and teeth become like swords made of the finest and strongest metal.  They can rip a person open with the slightest of ease.

Soft heads and steel fingernails are both aspects of that "Hollywoodism" I was talking about that probably would not be the case if Walkers existed IRL.  It makes them both more scary when they attack and visually exciting when they get popped.
 

I agree.  That is why I liked Dale and Andrea so much because they were fighting to restart civilization and have the human race survive and not just the individual survive.  As far as we have seen only 1 person has been born and a WHOLE BUNCH have been killed.  The walking dead world is losing humans at an alarming rate.  They need to work together or they face extinction.  But so far only Dale and Andrea have been the "big picture" thinkers of the show it seems.  But it takes a little chaos before order can be restored lets just hope they don't end up killing all the people trying to restart the world!

I liked Dale and Andrea as much as any character on the show. In fact there really hasn't been a character (except maybe Lori) that I had a serious problem with.  But there may be an interesting way to look at the passing of the people like Dale and Andrea in terms of how the post-ZA world works.

It seems pretty clear that the rules have fundamentally changed for what's left of "civilization".  Perhaps by killing off the "big picture" people as you put it the story is trying to tell us that there really is no going back to the idealized way things used to be.  I'm not saying that there should be absolutely no hope for a better future - I'm just saying that perhaps Dale and Andrea were clinging too much to the idea of a world that will never return the way they wanted.  Perhaps it's a sort of mercy for them that they are finally gone.

In their place are going to be people like Carl, Daryl, Michonne and yes even the Governor who somehow seem better adapted to the mindset needed for this new world.  I think it'll be people like these who are going to "inherit" what's left of the shattered world and establish what the new civilization will be like.

[Mandu]

Case in point I don't see Carl ever knee-capping a friend in order to save himself from Walkers like Shane did.

That guy wasn't exactly a friend.  They had met him only a few hours before.  And he was the one who shot Carl in the first place.

And Carl is much worse than Shane.  When Shane did kill the guy he felt guilt.  You could see it was haunting him.  He also hid his actions from the rest of the group.  Carl on the other hand was completely cold about it.  He showed the typical approach of a true sociopath in that the person he just killed didn't matter at all.  He felt no more emotion about it than he would have felt throwing out some food that he thought might be spoiled.  The only emotions he is showing now is annoyance and anger that Rick is questioning his actions and doing things that he doesn't approve of.  Once again, typical sociopathic behavior.

[Kaos Arcanna]

Yeah, Carl definitely is giving a sociopathic vibe off to me now. Granted, that may be what you need to be to survive in that world, but it doesn't bode well for the long term survival of the human race on Earth Walker.

No one is building things. No one is growing crops. No one is doing large scale hunting and gathering. There is no electricity, manufacturing, or organized society of any kind. No educational system to teach children useful skills like farming or basic medicine.  Woodbury was the largest community we had seen since the show began, and there couldn't have been that many of them if the noncombatants (the only survivors) didn't fill a school bus.

If what we see on the show is the same throughout the entire world, then I don't think any kind of "civilization" is going to possible, and humanity itself would probably go extinct within a century or two. (If you kill every newcomer, who are you going to marry and have children with? Who's going to replace the old, the infirm, the ones lost to accidents, hostile humans, or Walkers?)

On a long term basis, it seems that world is doomed.

 

[Taceus Jiwede]

Yeah, Carl definitely is giving a sociopathic vibe off to me now. Granted, that may be what you need to be to survive in that world, but it doesn't bode well for the long term survival of the human race on Earth Walker.

No one is building things. No one is growing crops. No one is doing large scale hunting and gathering. There is no electricity, manufacturing, or organized society of any kind. No educational system to teach children useful skills like farming or basic medicine.  Woodbury was the largest community we had seen since the show began, and there couldn't have been that many of them if the noncombatants (the only survivors) didn't fill a school bus.

If what we see on the show is the same throughout the entire world, then I don't think any kind of "civilization" is going to possible, and humanity itself would probably go extinct within a century or two. (If you kill every newcomer, who are you going to marry and have children with? Who's going to replace the old, the infirm, the ones lost to accidents, hostile humans, or Walkers?)

On a long term basis, it seems that world is doomed.

Yep.  It does show that the ZA world is more so meant for the killers.  But I have noticed most of the time a lot of deaths are kind of pointless.  The whole prison/woodbury wouldn't of ever happened if the Governor wasn't so kill happy.

I figure that at some point all the people who have the Governor approach will kill each other off.  Hopefully there is enough people after that left to repopulate the world, even if society will be completely different, after all every time a person will die they will turn.  Burials would include a free brain puncture.

As it looks right now.  The human race will be extinct in no time.  Then the world will just be full of zombies.  The world will become a pocket of evil in space until aliens find it and then a zombie gets on the craft and starts a whole new galaxy zombie infection.  That will lead into the sequel "The space traveling dead."  Oh pancake! Spoilers sorry guys.

[Lothic]

That guy wasn't exactly a friend.  They had met him only a few hours before.  And he was the one who shot Carl in the first place.

And Carl is much worse than Shane.  When Shane did kill the guy he felt guilt.  You could see it was haunting him.  He also hid his actions from the rest of the group.  Carl on the other hand was completely cold about it.  He showed the typical approach of a true sociopath in that the person he just killed didn't matter at all.  He felt no more emotion about it than he would have felt throwing out some food that he thought might be spoiled.  The only emotions he is showing now is annoyance and anger that Rick is questioning his actions and doing things that he doesn't approve of.  Once again, typical sociopathic behavior.

Yes everything you said about Otis in particular was true.  But I was talking about an actual "friend" to Carl as in I doubt Carl would knee-cap Daryl, Beth, Glenn, Rick, etc.  Sure Carl might no longer give a random outsider the time of day (or the chance to shoot first) but despite all his pseudo-sociopathic tendencies I still think he's hyper-loyal to his "friends and family" and would likely even sacrifice himself in order to save them.

As far a "Carl being much worse that Shane" you have to remember that Shane did things to directly harm/antagonize the group.  Shane knew he ruined Rick and Lori's relationship and he knew he failed to rescue Rick in the beginning so he had plenty of sins to suffer from. Knee-capping Otis was just a futher expression of the selfishness and guilt Shane was already consumed with.  For all of Carl's faults his conscious is clear at least as far as everything he's done has been for the overt protection of the group, regardless the methods.

This is why I don't believe Carl is a pure sociopath in the strictest sense.  Yes he's willing to kill humans without a second thought and I'm willing to agree that were it not for the ZA it'd be easy to label his actions full-on sociopathic in the traditional sense.  But until Carl shoots someone like Hershel or Carol for looking at him funny I'm going to refrain from labeling him 100% psycho.  Carl is playing out a morally grey scenario which doesn't really apply to our "real world".  Carl's thinking has become extremely war-oriented and cave-man primitive: Either you're an ally or you're an enemy, period.  Yes we can judge his methods to be cold and brutal in the light of our current "civilization".  But I contend that after a ZA his are the actions of a new "normal".

Let's put it this way: Do you think Han Solo sheds a tear (or deserves to be called a sociopath) for shooting Greedo first?  This is the mode that Carl is now operating in.

Yeah, Carl definitely is giving a sociopathic vibe off to me now. Granted, that may be what you need to be to survive in that world, but it doesn't bode well for the long term survival of the human race on Earth Walker.

No one is building things. No one is growing crops. No one is doing large scale hunting and gathering. There is no electricity, manufacturing, or organized society of any kind. No educational system to teach children useful skills like farming or basic medicine.  Woodbury was the largest community we had seen since the show began, and there couldn't have been that many of them if the noncombatants (the only survivors) didn't fill a school bus.

If what we see on the show is the same throughout the entire world, then I don't think any kind of "civilization" is going to possible, and humanity itself would probably go extinct within a century or two. (If you kill every newcomer, who are you going to marry and have children with? Who's going to replace the old, the infirm, the ones lost to accidents, hostile humans, or Walkers?)

On a long term basis, it seems that world is doomed.

This is one of the main problems this franchise suffers from as it tries to keep everything tightly focused on this handful of people without showing us what's going on in the "outside world" beyond.

For all we know there might be whole cities out there that have managed to organize enough to become Walker-free sanctuaries.  There might be isolated places (like Hawaii, Iceland or Australia) which never suffered a serious Walker outbreak to begin with and have managed to hang on more-or-less intact.  Frankly I don't think we can judge the entire fate of civilization in this world based on the futures of these few dozen people we've been watching one way or the other.  Sure it does appear that at the very least the Southern USA is screwed for the time being.  But until (or if) we ever learn of the bigger picture I don't think it's worth worrying about civilization in general resting on Carl's individual mental stability.

[therain93]

This is one of the main problems this franchise suffers from as it tries to keep everything tightly focused on this handful of people without showing us what's going on in the "outside world" beyond.

For all we know there might be whole cities out there that have managed to organize enough to become Walker-free sanctuaries.  There might be isolated places (like Hawaii, Iceland or Australia) which never suffered a serious Walker outbreak to begin with and have managed to hang on more-or-less intact.  Frankly I don't think we can judge the entire fate of civilization in this world based on the futures of these few dozen people we've been watching one way or the other.  Sure it does appear that at the very least the Southern USA is screwed for the time being.  But until (or if) we ever learn of the bigger picture I don't think it's worth worrying about civilization in general resting on Carl's individual mental stability.

Well, I don't know if it really 'suffers' -- the point is that we essentially know what the characters know (or share with us eventually, as in the case of Rick withholding knowledge that everyone is infected until the end of Season 2).  I think the only proper way we'll see the Walking Dead end, assuming it can end on its own terms, is when the group makes it to one of those little islands of refuge that we haven't seen yet.

[therain93]

I liked Dale and Andrea as much as any character on the show. In fact there really hasn't been a character (except maybe Lori) that I had a serious problem with.  But there may be an interesting way to look at the passing of the people like Dale and Andrea in terms of how the post-ZA world works.

It seems pretty clear that the rules have fundamentally changed for what's left of "civilization".  Perhaps by killing off the "big picture" people as you put it the story is trying to tell us that there really is no going back to the idealized way things used to be.  I'm not saying that there should be absolutely no hope for a better future - I'm just saying that perhaps Dale and Andrea were clinging too much to the idea of a world that will never return the way they wanted.  Perhaps it's a sort of mercy for them that they are finally gone.

In their place are going to be people like Carl, Daryl, Michonne and yes even the Governor who somehow seem better adapted to the mindset needed for this new world.  I think it'll be people like these who are going to "inherit" what's left of the shattered world and establish what the new civilization will be like.

I think there's a political and philosophical message in there -- basically, we as a culture really don't realize how good we have it right now.  By that I mean, ultimately "might makes right" in this world and, at least for most of us, the might is....arguably....in the hands of people we have invested with authority, hopefully working in the interest of the greater good.  People (individuals, groups, regimes) commit hurtful acts all the time and as much as we may say, "stop, don't do that", they typically don't until someone else asserts authority (through force or threat of force) to stop them.  In the world of the walking dead, you've got your individuals and groups trying to survive and then you have someone like the Governor who is relatively well organized, but not necessarily working for the greater good...and he simply won't be stopped until someone stops him... 

Because there no longer is any overarching authority, they're operating with playground rules where anything goes in the absence of any aide/teacher/principal intervening.... Naturally, this line of discussion can get heated and/or political very quickly when we start applying it to the real world, so I'll stop there.
 
Edit:  In summary, people doing good just doesn't happen like Dale and Andrea want it to -- Basically, what the world needs is to go retro Roman times where the people elect someone to do what is necessary in a time of need to re-establish peace and authority to maintain that peace, then that person steps down.

[Lothic]

Well, I don't know if it really 'suffers' -- the point is that we essentially know what the characters know (or share with us eventually, as in the case of Rick withholding knowledge that everyone is infected until the end of Season 2).  I think the only proper way we'll see the Walking Dead end, assuming it can end on its own terms, is when the group makes it to one of those little islands of refuge that we haven't seen yet.

Well I'll admit my use of the the word "suffers" was a bit loaded.  I completely understand the context of this story's setting and realize there's pretty much no way for the characters involved to know what's happening in the rest of the world.  Obviously there's no TV, radio and/or Internet anymore - I get that.  On a certain level it has been interesting to see it unfold that way.

I'm just suggesting that the trade-off for keeping the story tightly focused/localized is that it leaves us, the audience, with constantly nagging questions about the "big picture" that get more annoying as time goes on.  I've never expected Rick and Company to personally "save the world" or even know what's going on over the next hill they haven't seen yet for themselves.  But there's really no reason why we, the audience, can't be shown things that are beyond the general knowledge of the characters.  Like you said Rick's "secret" (which was always pretty obvious to the audience) about the infection was pretty cool.  Frankly I found those couple of first season episodes that featured Dr. Jenner of the CDC actually telling the group -something- about the bigger picture to be some of the best episodes of the series so far.  Those episodes actually seemed to advance the story forward as opposed to much of the rest of the series which unfortunately tends to stagnate and seem as directionless as the Walkers themselves.

I get that simply surviving day-to-day in the ZA is a constant struggle which leaves little time to do or think about anything else.  But we've already seen these characters survive many, many months like this.  It's just starting to baffle me that NONE of these characters are actively talking about or even contemplating what the fate of the rest of the world is.  It's becoming almost silly to me that they've decided to hunker down in the prison and ASSUME that the rest of the world is gone without finding out for themselves.  It's the proverbial elephant in the room that's getting harder and harder to suspend my disbelief over.