Author Topic: My assesment of the housing market crisis (including blame)  (Read 14414 times)

dwturducken

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Re: My assesment of the housing market crisis (including blame)
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2013, 06:00:25 PM »
The infuriating thing, to me, is the quasi-parasitic nature of the credit rating system. For instance, if you have a lot of credit cards (I have no idea how many), that has a negative affect on your score, but cancelling a card also has a negative affect.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

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Re: My assesment of the housing market crisis (including blame)
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2013, 06:11:07 PM »
The infuriating thing, to me, is the quasi-parasitic nature of the credit rating system. For instance, if you have a lot of credit cards (I have no idea how many), that has a negative affect on your score, but cancelling a card also has a negative affect.
I find that it's better to have a few cards with moderate to high limits than a lot of cards with low limits just because they're easier to keep track of.

Cancelling a card will cause your score to take a temporary hit.  If nothing else changes, you've reduced the amount of credit you have available without changing the amount of credit you are using, making the percentage of your total credit being utilized higher.  However, if you cancel a card with (as an example) a $1000 limit and simultaneously raise the limit on another card by $1000, you will reduce the hit to your score by maintaining the same percentage of credit utilized.  You could also do the same by cancelling the card and then making a large enough payment on a loan or other credit account to maintain the same percentage.

Remember:  keeping the value of (credit used)/(credit available) as low as possible is a big part of your credit score.
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JaguarX

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Re: My assesment of the housing market crisis (including blame)
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2013, 06:19:55 PM »
Both loans were through Wells Fargo. If you don't have enough credit, or if you have bad credit, you may have to put something up for collateral (most common thing is the title to your vehicle if you own one - since you know you'll be paying it off (since the loan is small enough to keep the payments reasonable), it's not in danger).

Before I did the loan, I first set up a "secured credit card" from Wells Fargo, in which I paid them $300 to have a $300 credit limit, and in 18mo they gave me back my $300 and raised my limit to $1200 after successfully showing that I can both utilize credit (not always paying it off every month) and shop within my budget (not having a high roll-over, and paying it off entirely occasionally). If you've been able to get a "real" credit card, this isn't as big a deal though. You have enough credit to GET a card. I didn't have any credit at all, so I started with this.

After I'd had it a couple months (used it to purchase gas and "commute stuff" only) and paid off/rolled over/paid off a few rounds, I put up for the $1k loan - terms asked for 18mo repayment, I repaid in 10. I put up for the $5k loan last summer for my fall wedding. The first loan would probably have been a higher interest rate had I not done the secured card. The second loan would have been denied entirely had I not done the first two - and I put my car title up for collateral for a lower rate even though I would have been approved anyway.

The main thing about credit is allowing the people to make a little money off of you to show that you're willing and able to use credit. That's what things like mortgages, business accounts, etc., are - credit - so you need to show you're good on it or you'll get either a flat no or you'll get reamed with fees and interest charges.

I'll go check them out. Yeah I got real credit card or rather unsecured one as they call it. I'll play around with it for a few months and try Wells Fargo for one of those small loans.

I find it funny I get denied for small loans like $1000 unsecured but they happily turn around with $8,000 unsecured loan offer. lol.

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Re: My assesment of the housing market crisis (including blame)
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2013, 09:14:44 PM »
I'm really tempted to lock this thread.  I'm not sure exactly what it's for, and it's really damn close to being flamebait.  I'd rather just let it die a natural death, but just keep in mind if you're going to reply or post in it that it's about this close ->||<- to being nuked...

you know me tony, or at least you are starting to, I always like to take things to the edge of the line!, heck thats why the stories I write can be so entertaining and thats why I think modern games are trash and have started to make my own.

meh, didn't mean to post flamebait. I am just being observant. (that and I talked to a guy who owns several tropical islands now, he was a realtor but now doens't need to do anything for work lol) no he wont fund CoH or buy it, he has no interest in spending money. except on islands and cruiseliners that is.

yeah, not all realtors are at fault nor is every mortgage agency, nor is every college, bt the ones who were at fault|.... ok I hit the line, I cannot finish that sentence in a constructive manner.

I just don't like the idea that the Gov will force the average citizen/home owner to pay for the country's debt when alot of them were just ignorant pawns in the whole scheme. yeah they abused it but alot abused it to afford over priced stuff to move forewards in life. my family isn't effected cause we were smart and didn't take a large mortgage only what we needed and could afford, we paid that off already so we fully own our house.

I don't like to see other people trodden on, and yeah the financial advice in this thread is very helpful to those people.
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SerialBeggar

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Re: My assesment of the housing market crisis (including blame)
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2013, 01:00:09 AM »
I ordered a free credit report from Equifax a couple of years ago.  You can ask for a free one once a year.  Note, Equifax was the only one where I was able to order it easily online.  The other two, Experian and Transunion, were such a confusing hassle that I gave up on them. 

Here are the copy and pastes of the categories and their descriptions from my report for you to see what to keep in mind.

Credit Summary
Your Equifax Credit Summary highlights the information in your credit file that is most important in determining your credit standing by distilling key credit information into one easy-to-read summary.

Accounts
Lenders usually take a positive view of individuals with a range of credit accounts - car loan, credit cards, mortgage, etc. - that have a record of timely payments. However, a high debt to credit ratio on certain types of revolving (credit card) accounts and installment loans will typically have a negative impact.

Account Age
Usually, it is a good idea to keep your oldest credit account open, as a high average account age generally demonstrates stability to lenders. Also, especially if you have been managing credit for a short time, opening many new accounts will lower your average account age and may have a negative impact.

Inquiries - Requests for your Credit History
Numerous inquires on your credit file for new credit may cause you to appear risky to lenders, so it is usually better to only seek new credit when you need it. Typically, lenders distinguish between inquiries for a single loan and many new loans in part by the length of time over which the inquiries occur. So, when rate shopping for a loan it's a good idea to do it within a focused period of time.

Potentially Negative Information
Late payments, collections and public records can have a negative impact on your credit standing. The more severe and recent they are, the more negative the potential impact might be.

Mortgage Accounts
Mortgage accounts include first mortgages, home equity loans, and any other loans secured by real estate you own.

Installment Accounts
Installment accounts are credit accounts in which the amount of the payment and the number of payments are predetermined or fixed, such as a car loan.

Revolving Accounts
Revolving accounts are charge accounts that have a credit limit and require a minimum payment each month, such as most credit cards.

Other Accounts
These are all accounts that do not fall into the other categories and can include 30-day accounts such as American Express.

Inquiries
A request for your credit history is called an inquiry. Inquiries remain on your credit report for two years. There are two types of inquires - those that may impact your credit rating and those that do not.

Inquiries that do not impact your credit rating
These inquires include requests from employers, companies making promotional offers and your own requests to check your credit. These inquiries are only viewable by you.

Negative Accounts
Accounts that contain a negative account status. Accounts not paid as agreed generally remain on your credit file for 7 years from the date the account first became past due leading to the current not paid status. Late Payment History generally remains on your credit file for 7 years from the date of the late payment.

Collections
A collection is an account that has been turned over to a collection agency by one of your creditors because they believe the account has not been paid as agreed.

Public Records
Public record information includes bankruptcies, liens or judgments and comes from federal, state or county court records.

Personal Information
The following information is added to your file either when creditors enter requests to view your credit history, or when you report it to Equifax directly.

Other Identification

Employment History

Alert(s)

Consumer Statement



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Electric-Knight

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Re: My assesment of the housing market crisis (including blame)
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2013, 04:26:36 AM »
Please note that if you pay off your entire bill each month, the credit score companies still don't see that as utilizing credit and you are doing very little for your credit score.

They want an occasional roll-over. They want to see you using credit... e.g. "money you don't have right now"... that is why it is a credit score - it's scoring how well you use your credit. Pay off 75% of the bill one month, pay off everything the next, rinse and repeat. Roll-over some of the bill and you'll build credit *FAR FASTER* than paying it off every month: you're utilizing "credit" (even if you technically have the money to pay for it) and thus actually making a difference to your "CREDIT" score.

Even better is to get a small loan - I got a $1000 "car loan"...though all I did was pay off all my bills and sit the rest in my savings account. By doubling the payments (one automatic payment and one payment "when I had extra" - which was most months), I paid it off in half the time agreed to. Now I have a completed "line of credit" that is in good standing, never late payment, etc., on my credit history.

I'm currently doing this again with a $5000 "car loan" that paid for my wedding.
I'm not 100% positive about this, but...
More than 5 years ago, when we were buying a house, everyone reacted in shock at our great credit scores. And we had no history of letting monthly bills roll into the next.
Same for when we were being checked at a car dealership a few years afterward.
I don't know if things have changed or what, but we had super duper credit scores and we never had any roll overs. Just always paid our bills by the due date with zero hanging balances.
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JaguarX

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Re: My assesment of the housing market crisis (including blame)
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2013, 07:23:05 PM »
I ordered a free credit report from Equifax a couple of years ago.  You can ask for a free one once a year.  Note, Equifax was the only one where I was able to order it easily online.  The other two, Experian and Transunion, were such a confusing hassle that I gave up on them. 

Here are the copy and pastes of the categories and their descriptions from my report for you to see what to keep in mind.

Credit Summary
Your Equifax Credit Summary highlights the information in your credit file that is most important in determining your credit standing by distilling key credit information into one easy-to-read summary.

Accounts
Lenders usually take a positive view of individuals with a range of credit accounts - car loan, credit cards, mortgage, etc. - that have a record of timely payments. However, a high debt to credit ratio on certain types of revolving (credit card) accounts and installment loans will typically have a negative impact.

Account Age
Usually, it is a good idea to keep your oldest credit account open, as a high average account age generally demonstrates stability to lenders. Also, especially if you have been managing credit for a short time, opening many new accounts will lower your average account age and may have a negative impact.

Inquiries - Requests for your Credit History
Numerous inquires on your credit file for new credit may cause you to appear risky to lenders, so it is usually better to only seek new credit when you need it. Typically, lenders distinguish between inquiries for a single loan and many new loans in part by the length of time over which the inquiries occur. So, when rate shopping for a loan it's a good idea to do it within a focused period of time.

Potentially Negative Information
Late payments, collections and public records can have a negative impact on your credit standing. The more severe and recent they are, the more negative the potential impact might be.

Mortgage Accounts
Mortgage accounts include first mortgages, home equity loans, and any other loans secured by real estate you own.

Installment Accounts
Installment accounts are credit accounts in which the amount of the payment and the number of payments are predetermined or fixed, such as a car loan.

Revolving Accounts
Revolving accounts are charge accounts that have a credit limit and require a minimum payment each month, such as most credit cards.

Other Accounts
These are all accounts that do not fall into the other categories and can include 30-day accounts such as American Express.

Inquiries
A request for your credit history is called an inquiry. Inquiries remain on your credit report for two years. There are two types of inquires - those that may impact your credit rating and those that do not.

Inquiries that do not impact your credit rating
These inquires include requests from employers, companies making promotional offers and your own requests to check your credit. These inquiries are only viewable by you.

Negative Accounts
Accounts that contain a negative account status. Accounts not paid as agreed generally remain on your credit file for 7 years from the date the account first became past due leading to the current not paid status. Late Payment History generally remains on your credit file for 7 years from the date of the late payment.

Collections
A collection is an account that has been turned over to a collection agency by one of your creditors because they believe the account has not been paid as agreed.

Public Records
Public record information includes bankruptcies, liens or judgments and comes from federal, state or county court records.

Personal Information
The following information is added to your file either when creditors enter requests to view your credit history, or when you report it to Equifax directly.

Other Identification

Employment History

Alert(s)

Consumer Statement

already monitor my credit. It's about using credit and getting credit at this point.

One thing they never mentioned on that credit score thing. You must have debt to get more. It's like dating. You dont talk, date goes bad. You talk to much aka go over some invisible line, date go bad. Say the wrong thing date go bad. It seems that it's some piano wire thin line that has to be walked to be debt free while haveing good credit score. Be financially responsible and never have debt, according to the lenders ya just as bad as someoen with bunch of credit cards and never pay their bills. Yet, use some debt, they throw money at ya in any amount. I just need a few token loans not the large ones they always be offering. They wont give me $1,000 but try to get to me sign for $8,000.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 07:29:26 PM by JaguarX »

Illusionss

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Re: My assesment of the housing market crisis (including blame)
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2013, 05:22:32 PM »
My boss was telling me that he bought a home in the late 70s and he lucked out big time as rates changed in a big way.  If they had gone in the opposite direction, to the same degree of change, he would have lost his house.  ARMs are bad news even if capped.

I am old enough to remember the first time we as a nation had problems with ARMs and plenty of people lost their houses:  this was back in the late 1970s. I was a teenager at the time, but I still remember a huge flap about it.

It stuck in my mind well enough that when it came time for my husband and myself to purchase a home in the mid-80s, we insisted on a flat rate, even though it was high, and the mortgage co. was pushing the idea of an ARM on us. Around 11% IIRC. When it dropped to 8% we refinanced.

Luckily due to my husband receiving a large payout when his place of work closed years ago, our house has been paid off for years. It is so wonderful to not owe a house note, I doubt we will ever move again. But yes: ARMs are the devil, and why anyone anywhere ever thought that would be a good idea is simply beyond me.

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Re: My assesment of the housing market crisis (including blame)
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2013, 04:47:17 AM »
It's because they are told, over and over again that owning a home is the best thing since sliced bread.  Once you give into that argument then there's the whole trying to afford it.  And 10 times our of 10 what you want, you simply can't afford.  Sure you can afford a home with the features you want, but it's a 40 minute commute from the boondocks.  So "creative" financing is needed if you want to get closer.

If you aren't about building equity then you simply think of your mortgage just like rent.  So as long as your home doesn't lose value you can treat it like a rental.  Pay X per month and leave whenever.  So yes that cheap rate for the first 3 years look good if that means it cuts an hour commute time off per day or even keeps you in the same town/city you were renting in.  And if you don't want to move, well you should be making more than enough in three year to handle the jump in the mortgage.  It's not like they don't raise rents, it's expected.

It's a terrible trap.  We don't live in a time where we would end up working at the same or nearby companies for a good chunk of our lives like our parents did.
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TonyV

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Re: My assesment of the housing market crisis (including blame)
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2013, 06:34:13 PM »
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 06:39:15 PM by TonyV »

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Re: My assesment of the housing market crisis (including blame)
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2013, 06:51:15 PM »
Keep in mind that this is my banker--someone who is supposed to be a fiduciary authority, someone who is supposed to have my best interest at heart.  It was even a credit union, where supposedly looking out for the member is even more important.  The guy treated me like I was an idiot, as if I were disregarding hundreds of years of sage wisdom by going with a fixed rate mortgage instead of an ARM, but I was insistent.  And in case you're interested, I ended up going with their preapproval to buy my house--for $200,000--but I went with a different company to actually make the loan.

And that's the problem, you assumed that they were looking out for you, a person who works for an entity who you will be paying your mortgage to, an entity that will own the property as collateral until the debt is paid off.  It's like believing the car salesman is actually looking to give you a great deal or a politician is looking out for the good of their constituents.  Same is true with real estate brokers, they want you to spend as much as possible because they work on commission.  Traditionally they get 2% of the price (another 2% goes to the broker of the seller and 2% to the agency of the broker who represents the seller so big payday if they own the agency and represent both sides).  If via an ARM or some other "new" style mortgage can get you to spend more, it's good for them as well.

Same is true with stock brokers.  Simply you can't trust anyone in "sales" to look out for you because their incentives are based on what's good for them NOT you.  That's why you're shown homes just outside of your "hard" maximum.  That's why they present creative financing (60 month car loan to keep the payments the same, ARMs or interest only mortgages, constant refinancing while the housing market is on the rise).  Who makes the immediate money?  Always ask yourself that.  And the more money that's involved, the more likely that these "helpful" experts aren't looking out for you.

And it's the unintended consequences of these incentives that lead to catastrophic unintentional results.  I'm sure the broker and banker didn't intend to put hundred of thousands of families into homes whose value will crash when the bubble burst.  Who wouldn't be able to pay when the economy took a downturn.  Which in turn drove the economy downwards even faster as billions of dollars property value evaporated virtually overnight.

And right now it's scaring me that home prices are increasing again and I'm hearing commercials again about cheap refinancing or first time mortgages.  The housing market IMO is still inflated, that it hadn't yet returned to a "proper" value.  Sure it's down a lot but it was up even more.  I hate to say it but it's a lot like NCSOFT's stock price.  It blew up really huge and then crashed back toward where it "should" be but now some people now think it's too low as oppose to just right and the price is ratcheting higher again, up over 20% since it's low right after the 4Q/annual numbers were published.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 07:39:31 PM by FatherXmas »
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TonyV

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Re: My assesment of the housing market crisis (including blame)
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2013, 06:54:26 PM »
More than 5 years ago, when we were buying a house, everyone reacted in shock at our great credit scores. And we had no history of letting monthly bills roll into the next.

My sister has the best credit score I've ever seen.  She's never made more than $50,000 in a year (and only came close one or two years), but her credit score is well over 800.  To be honest, when I saw it, I told her, "I didn't even know that credit scores could go that high," and I really didn't.  I saw her credit report.  It was green as far back as it went.  She had never missed a payment or been late with one on anything.  Never.  Not even once.  It blew my mind.  My score is pretty good, and I make most of my payments on time, but I have forgotten something once in a while or accidentally done something like screw up the autopay thing on my bank's web site and ended up underpaying.  Needless to say, I'm pretty proud of her.  She could probably go buy a yacht if she wanted to.  (But of course, being all responsible, she would never do something crazy.)

P.S. I wasn't just nosy, she actually came over one weekend because someone had stolen her identity and it was the beginning of a very long and arduous process of cleaning her credit back up.  She filled out police reports, sent dozens of letters, and still ended up having to sue Capital One, Equifax, and TransUnion (and won, to the tune of around $20,000) because they kept jerking her chain and wouldn't take the stuff off her reports.  Five years later, she's finally back in the clear and has a spotless report again.

As a side note, I will NEVER do business with Capital One.  They refused to acknowledge the police reports and, even though the identity theft happened under her old married name that she had legally changed around five years prior, they refused to clear her name off the credit reports.  During the legal proceedings, her alleged credit card application was subpoenaed, which they couldn't (or wouldn't) produce, yet they still refused to relent.  It cost her around $10,000 in all in legal fees to clear the case, and while she won legal fees, of course she had to have that money up front to pay her lawyer.  And the whole time, they were robocalling her up to eight times a day on her cell phone, at work, and at her house.  She would call me on the verge of crying and saying that she wanted to just pay the money they said she owed, it was that harassing.  Together (more her than me), we managed to get through it, but she still has to check every single credit report four times a year to make sure nothing else fishy is happening as a result.  She'll probably have to for the rest of her life.

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Re: My assesment of the housing market crisis (including blame)
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2013, 07:00:15 PM »
And that's your problem, you assumed that they were looking out for you, a person who works for an entity who you will be paying your mortgage to, an entity that will own the property as collateral until the debt is paid off.

Most people don't have the money to pay an independent financial consultant, and to be blunt, they shouldn't have to.  There should be tougher regulations keeping bankers from screwing over their customers, plain and simple.  There should be disclosure requirements showing people what they'll be paying on a loan five, ten, and/or fifteen years out under various assumptions of interest rate movement, and there should be in big red letters under the biggest number, "If you cannot afford this, you should seriously reconsider this loan."  I'm not a financial guru either, though I consider myself probably a bit smarter than the average bear.  I'm sure that people who work specifically in this field could come up with some good ideas.  It's also why I support people like Elizabeth Warren who have made this a priority.

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Re: My assesment of the housing market crisis (including blame)
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2013, 07:56:42 PM »
her credit score is well over 800
I tell ya, man, it feels good to be up in that range. ;)
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Re: My assesment of the housing market crisis (including blame)
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2013, 08:32:13 PM »
Personally I find the youth of today shockingly ill-informed about basic economic facts and matters of personal finance.  It is way to easy to get over your head in debt.  True people may blame the institutions that let them do it so easily but what about personal responsibility.  You know what your income is.  You should know how much you can afford to pay toward loans and credit card debt.  Yet I keep seeing young people, fresh out of high school or college go nuts with their Visa/MC/Discover and simply don't think about the things they buy.  I had one young friend forced to face this when he couldn't get approval for a used car loan he desperately needed (we are talking bailing wire and good intentions was keeping his current car running) because of his mounting credit card debt due to his Amazon/iTunes habit.  He was forced to take a 30 hr/week part time job, sucking up his nights and weekends, so he could wipe out the credit card just so he could get that loan.  Sure he had a thousand CDs, a hundred anime series as well as a great movie/TV collection on DVD and a mounted broken Narsil but he couldn't drive them to work.  So he became responsible, took classes, got a better job, learned to save for a rainy day.

This issue has always been one of the most ironic ones in the modern age.

It's very easy to blame the individuals. But did you ever ask WHY so many people are ill-informed about basic economic facts and personal finance? First of all, we live in a business-centric society. This is an age where a government regulation on soft drink size can create more rage in its citizens than the chipping away of our private lives. Business is being treated as more sacred than general life. I'm not going to make an argument for or against that. I'm just using it as an example of just how high a pedestal Business has been placed on.

I'll simplify what you said about the ill-informed and ask it in the form of a question. "Why are people so stupid now?" Simple. It's good for business.

Think about it. If you want to profit from selling a product to the masses, who would you be more confident in selling it to? A nation full of penny-pinchers? Or a nation full of impulsive spenders who don't have a clue how much they can afford to borrow? Obviously, you're going to get more sales with the latter.

With the exception of a handful of necessities, business isn't about giving somebody something they want. It's about making somebody think they want it and then giving it to them. Most commerce is dependent upon consumers who buy before they think.

Of course it didn't start out that way, but the trend has always been there. Con-artists have always been searching for the suckers. Every advance in mass-communication has done its part to create more of them. Whether or not this was an intentional process, I'm not sure. But it's a sad truth that fools are the easiest to sell to, and that makes them the most important demographic. Now, factor that into entertainment. All entertainment relies on sponsors, and that means advertising. But sponsors want their ads to be accessible to the people who are most likely to buy the product. And who is that? The suckers. Therefore, entertainment that is most attractive to suckers, is most likely to draw in sponsorship. And as we all know, whether we like it or not, the behavior of humans is heavily influenced by entertainment. See where this is going? The age of fools is self-perpetuating. We've created a media-driven world that encourages us to be stupid. We just reached an unbelievable new level of this with the introduction of reality shows. The 'celebrities of the future' are people the likes of the cast of Jersey Shore and the Kardashians. Not only is it trendy to be stupid and impulsive, we're now being taught that it's a viable road to fame and success. Sure one could argue that entertainment has always had idiots, but we always knew it was scripted and staged (except for pro-wrestling). Now we're having it shown to us through the Blair Witch lens, and we're being told it's real life. It's going to get even worse in another couple of years, when computerized eye wear devices such as Google Glass enter the market, enabling corporations to subtly program us during every minute of our daily lives, and not just when we're in front of a computer or a television.

But that's just the media aspect. We've also been made dependent. For instance, try to find a public school that still teaches home economics, or wood shop. My father's old high-school in NYC even had a metal shop and a garage for teaching auto-repair. You'll have a hard time finding any of this now, at a time when less parents are around to teach their kids practical skills than at any other time in history. It was once all considered mandatory knowledge. It was a society where people were expected to help themselves. Today, the opposite is true. Even if we had the skills, we probably wouldn't have the time for them (too much of our time is swallowed up by even mundane things). But businesses don't want us using those skills anyway. they don't want us fixing cars ourselves. They want us to pay someone else to do it for us. They don't want us making our own clothes. If we made our own clothes, where would fashion lines be? They don't even want us to know how to patch a hole in our pants. They'd rather we throw the thing out and buy a new one. If we grew and made our own food, they couldn't sell us pre-packaged goods stuffed full of preservatives and addictive substances like MSG. But most importantly, they don't want us worrying about finance. They want us to be impulsive. If we go broke afterward, it's not the concern of a business. They made their sales. This is the price of business having no conscience.

Only now, now that all of this has contributed to people being lazy and dependent upon government safety nets, have the businesses really started to complain. I don't know if people just didn't realize that all of this would eventually come full circle, or if they just didn't care. Either way, this was engineered. They're reaping what they've sown now. People became dependent upon corporations to provide everything. And now that they're out of money, with no understanding of how to help themselves, they've turned to the government for help.

If this is to ever be reversed, Businesses need to understand how much power they really have over society, and take some actual responsibility for it. Because whether they like it or not, powered by the media, they actually have more control over the ebbs and flows of society than government. Oh sure, government can be a mad dictator if it wants, force us to do or not do things, but it's advertising that tells us what we think of it.

Ironwolf

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Re: My assesment of the housing market crisis (including blame)
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2013, 09:02:18 PM »
Let me help you understand what happened and why, note these articles are written BEFORE the collapse:

This article was not written by a right wing source - in fact it was written by a SOCIALIST website.
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/1999/11/bank-n01.html

This article was written by a more conservative source.
http://www.city-journal.org/html/10_1_the_trillion_dollar.html

They both make it really this simple Clinton and the Democrats are making a huge mistake by basically giving free money to people and Republicans just signed on and let them. Along with this is a couple of simple facts: Goldman Sachs was a direct competitor with Lehman Brothers and most of congress had money in GS.

So one got bailed out and one didn't. Guess which ones were which?

The damage to the country and the economy were intentional. Cloward and Piven had a theory on how to collapse the economy and introduce a socialist government http://nicedeb.wordpress.com/2012/11/15/is-cloward-piven-strategy-finally-reaching-its-sorry-conclusion-and-should-conservatives-go-along-and-let-it-burn/

The mistakes being made are obvious and yet they are cheered for.

Consider this simple and elegant speech:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZQlo1jS8ic


JaguarX

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Re: My assesment of the housing market crisis (including blame)
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2013, 09:18:08 PM »
Tim that is truth spoken there
Although its ironic that with the amount an access to knowledge more so than in any point in human history it seems humans as a whole are becoming less aware of what's going on. Well of course they probably can tell you every Jersey Shore cast and their life story but have not a clue of figuring out their spending limits.
Is there an incentive for business to take responsibilty? Maybe but the reason they have this power over society in the first place is because individuals rather fuss and fight over trivial matters and not take responsibility for their own lives. When they overspend many people don't learn because they view it as "not their fault." "Someone should have stopped them." Or "someone should tell them to leave money on the side for food" So as a whole how can we expect business to take responsibility when individuals refuse to do it? Business is to make money. Like offensive line is there to score
 It is nit their responsibilty to stop scoring because the defense doesn't want to do anything and rather stare at the cheerleaders.

Heroette

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Re: My assesment of the housing market crisis (including blame)
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2013, 09:30:29 PM »
This issue has always been one of the most ironic ones in the modern age.

It's very easy to blame the individuals. But did you ever ask WHY so many people are ill-informed about basic economic facts and personal finance? First of all, we live in a business-centric society. This is an age where a government regulation on soft drink size can create more rage in its citizens than the chipping away of our private lives. Business is being treated as more sacred than general life. I'm not going to make an argument for or against that. I'm just using it as an example of just how high a pedestal Business has been placed on.

I'll simplify what you said about the ill-informed and ask it in the form of a question. "Why are people so stupid now?" Simple. It's good for business.

Think about it. If you want to profit from selling a product to the masses, who would you be more confident in selling it to? A nation full of penny-pinchers? Or a nation full of impulsive spenders who don't have a clue how much they can afford to borrow? Obviously, you're going to get more sales with the latter.

With the exception of a handful of necessities, business isn't about giving somebody something they want. It's about making somebody think they want it and then giving it to them. Most commerce is dependent upon consumers who buy before they think.

Of course it didn't start out that way, but the trend has always been there. Con-artists have always been searching for the suckers. Every advance in mass-communication has done its part to create more of them. Whether or not this was an intentional process, I'm not sure. But it's a sad truth that fools are the easiest to sell to, and that makes them the most important demographic. Now, factor that into entertainment. All entertainment relies on sponsors, and that means advertising. But sponsors want their ads to be accessible to the people who are most likely to buy the product. And who is that? The suckers. Therefore, entertainment that is most attractive to suckers, is most likely to draw in sponsorship. And as we all know, whether we like it or not, the behavior of humans is heavily influenced by entertainment. See where this is going? The age of fools is self-perpetuating. We've created a media-driven world that encourages us to be stupid. We just reached an unbelievable new level of this with the introduction of reality shows. The 'celebrities of the future' are people the likes of the cast of Jersey Shore and the Kardashians. Not only is it trendy to be stupid and impulsive, we're now being taught that it's a viable road to fame and success. Sure one could argue that entertainment has always had idiots, but we always knew it was scripted and staged (except for pro-wrestling). Now we're having it shown to us through the Blair Witch lens, and we're being told it's real life. It's going to get even worse in another couple of years, when computerized eye wear devices such as Google Glass enter the market, enabling corporations to subtly program us during every minute of our daily lives, and not just when we're in front of a computer or a television.

But that's just the media aspect. We've also been made dependent. For instance, try to find a public school that still teaches home economics, or wood shop. My father's old high-school in NYC even had a metal shop and a garage for teaching auto-repair. You'll have a hard time finding any of this now, at a time when less parents are around to teach their kids practical skills than at any other time in history. It was once all considered mandatory knowledge. It was a society where people were expected to help themselves. Today, the opposite is true. Even if we had the skills, we probably wouldn't have the time for them (too much of our time is swallowed up by even mundane things). But businesses don't want us using those skills anyway. they don't want us fixing cars ourselves. They want us to pay someone else to do it for us. They don't want us making our own clothes. If we made our own clothes, where would fashion lines be? They don't even want us to know how to patch a hole in our pants. They'd rather we throw the thing out and buy a new one. If we grew and made our own food, they couldn't sell us pre-packaged goods stuffed full of preservatives and addictive substances like MSG. But most importantly, they don't want us worrying about finance. They want us to be impulsive. If we go broke afterward, it's not the concern of a business. They made their sales. This is the price of business having no conscience.

Only now, now that all of this has contributed to people being lazy and dependent upon government safety nets, have the businesses really started to complain. I don't know if people just didn't realize that all of this would eventually come full circle, or if they just didn't care. Either way, this was engineered. They're reaping what they've sown now. People became dependent upon corporations to provide everything. And now that they're out of money, with no understanding of how to help themselves, they've turned to the government for help.

If this is to ever be reversed, Businesses need to understand how much power they really have over society, and take some actual responsibility for it. Because whether they like it or not, powered by the media, they actually have more control over the ebbs and flows of society than government. Oh sure, government can be a mad dictator if it wants, force us to do or not do things, but it's advertising that tells us what we think of it.

What you say is accurate.  I rarely watch tv and I really hate commercials, I try not to watch them.  I don't need to know what I should "Want" next.  I have everything I need.  All the rest of stuff is fluff (hey, I made a rhyme!).  I actually looked up on the internet why are the Kardashians famous. 

I guess what I want to say is that you put a lot of thought into your assessment and it is right on.  Good job.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: My assesment of the housing market crisis (including blame)
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2013, 10:22:25 PM »