Author Topic: NCsoft Q4 report.  (Read 12111 times)

Randomvector

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NCsoft Q4 report.
« on: February 05, 2013, 02:41:16 AM »
well its out.
Anyone with financial education able to decipher it for me?

Can get it here:
http://global.ncsoft.com/global/ir/quarterly.aspx

FatherXmas

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Re: NCsoft Q4 report.
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2013, 02:46:21 AM »
Profits up, sales up however profit for the parent company's quarter (Korea) was actually negative.

Sales in the west actually exceeded sales in Korea for the quarter due to GW2.

B&S sales actually declined while Lineage surged significantly (yes the 15 year old Lineage).
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Randomvector

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Re: NCsoft Q4 report.
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2013, 02:48:40 AM »
huh, Ok so I did undertand that. Guess I was wondering how sales and profits could be up and they still lost money?

Randomvector

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Re: NCsoft Q4 report.
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2013, 02:50:19 AM »
market doesn't seem impressed either. at 136k right now. 1k up from yearly low.

Joshex

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Re: NCsoft Q4 report.
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2013, 04:46:12 AM »
huh, Ok so I did undertand that. Guess I was wondering how sales and profits could be up and they still lost money?

if it smells fishy it usually is.

other companies were doing the same thing (remember Enron?), they were buying thier own stocks to make it look like they were making big money but actualy it was a loss because each time they buy thier stock it raised the price causing them to buy the next share at a higher price than the previous, with each buy they lost more and more money.

could be possible that NCSoft has started doing something like this. Korea is one of those countries that is behind the curve but actively following the USA, they will implement now ancient USA financial scams cause they just aren't illegal in S. Korea yet, they will do the Enron now and in 10-20 years they will do the housing crisis. unless they are tryign to catch up to us speedily then they will do the housing crisis asap.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

UruzSix

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Re: NCsoft Q4 report.
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2013, 04:50:44 AM »
huh, Ok so I did undertand that. Guess I was wondering how sales and profits could be up and they still lost money?

I'll wait for the full analysis, but the simplest explanation says 'expenses went even higher'.

FatherXmas

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Re: NCsoft Q4 report.
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2013, 05:42:21 AM »
huh, Ok so I did undertand that. Guess I was wondering how sales and profits could be up and they still lost money?

The parent company lost about $5-6 million for the quarter.  Overall the company made nearly $100 million profit for the quarter. 

Why?  Well looking at the detailed Profit/Loss spreadsheet of the parent company (IR_FactSheet_ENG(4QFY12)-public.xls, PL tab), there were two very large losses on 1) Disposition of Investments in Subsidiary and 2) Impairment of Investments in Subsidiary.  Together it's around 37,300 million KrW.  Cost of creating NC West Holdings by selling to it NC Interactive?  I'm guessing here but I'm not going to listen to a long normally quite boring conference call to see if anybody asked about it.  Also Foreign Exchange Losses were quite high relatively speaking, 2,059 million KrW, more than the three previous quarters combined.
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Kosmos

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Re: NCsoft Q4 report.
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2013, 05:43:07 AM »
huh, Ok so I did undertand that. Guess I was wondering how sales and profits could be up and they still lost money?

I'll wait for the full analysis, but the simplest explanation says 'expenses went even higher'.

Well, operating expenses are already deducted in calculating the profits. However, non-operating expenses aren't. So doing something such as buying a baseball team, purchasing real estate or capitalizing a new subsidiary may put the net income in the red. It depends on how exactly it is done and the accounting used. The red ink probably just comes from NCsoft converting income into assets.

Lily Barclay

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Re: NCsoft Q4 report.
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2013, 06:20:13 AM »
Ha. Right now their stocks are sitting exactly where they were three years ago.

And their sales in the west would have been even better if they hadn't closed CoH. Idiots.

Lily Barclay

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Re: NCsoft Q4 report.
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2013, 06:52:57 AM »
I couldn't get the conference call to stream or download. :(

General Idiot

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Re: NCsoft Q4 report.
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2013, 08:18:08 AM »
B&S sales actually declined while Lineage surged significantly (yes the 15 year old Lineage).

Old and actually not so busted preferrable to the new hotness? Gasp. Not like that's what we've been telling them since last August or anything.

Nafaustu

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Re: NCsoft Q4 report.
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2013, 04:23:52 PM »
Thank you FatherXmas for always having an insight into the financials.   As a person who has mastered her bankbook, but can't sort through corperate jargon, I personally really appreciate it.

dwturducken

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Re: NCsoft Q4 report.
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2013, 04:36:48 PM »
As I recall, there are actually some (underhanded) advantages to showing a loss, at least in the US.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Kosmos

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Re: NCsoft Q4 report.
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2013, 10:18:57 PM »
As I recall, there are actually some (underhanded) advantages to showing a loss, at least in the US.

Indeed, and you may note that NCsoft's consolidated line shows a drop in taxes despite an increase in pre-tax net income. As a percentage that dropped from 25% to 16%. The parent company's tax rate went up from 19.5% to 24.5% (note that the parent company had almost $70M in net income even after taxes, so they had a LOT of non-operating expenses to pull them down into the red). Obviously, this tells you little, as the detailed breakdowns aren't available (at least to my cursory search), but it is suggestive of a reason NCsoft may have deliberately shifted profits overseas, as many companies do. Usually to avoid US corporate taxes though, which prior to write-offs are the highest in the world. However, if you have a lot of deductions, say from writing off a subsidiary as a dead loss, then the byzantine US tax code may be beneficial.

Optimus Dex

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Re: NCsoft Q4 report.
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2013, 10:49:47 PM »
Profits up, sales up however profit for the parent company's quarter (Korea) was actually negative.

Sales in the west actually exceeded sales in Korea for the quarter due to GW2.

B&S sales actually declined while Lineage surged significantly (yes the 15 year old Lineage).


Just my opinion but older games have more content . Players that burn thru things and then get bored and move on  will find new games don't have the depth of content. I played COH for 8 years and never got thru all the content .

Perfidus

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Re: NCsoft Q4 report.
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2013, 11:17:31 PM »
That's not really an opinion, Dex. It's largely a fact. It's very rare for a game to launch with loads of content. The only ones I can think of, off hand, that launched with a somewhat complete experience were World of Warcraft and City of Heroes. It seems like an increasing trend that games will launch half finished or with next to nothing to do. I'll say Guild Wars 2 -tried- to launch with a complete experience, and they did in that you could probably get one character to level cap without repeating content, but only one character. And even then, that would mean going and doing other races' content, otherwise you'd still have to repeat bunches of things.

I don't consider a 'complete experience' to be one that you can finish all of on just one character. But that's just my stance. I don't think it can be argued though that older games don't have more content than newer ones. It goes beyond opinion and into factual territory. Demonstrably so, even.

Unless you're talking about Champions which, three years after its launch, still has mostly nothing to do that you couldn't do at launch.

Primantis

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Re: NCsoft Q4 report.
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2013, 11:29:55 PM »

Just my opinion but older games have more content . Players that burn thru things and then get bored and move on  will find new games don't have the depth of content. I played COH for 8 years and never got thru all the content .

Older games had more substance, period.

It's all about graphics, sex appeal, and fast money grabs these days.


Peregrine Falcon

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Re: NCsoft Q4 report.
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2013, 09:09:48 AM »
Unless you're talking about Champions which, three years after its launch, still has mostly nothing to do that you couldn't do at launch.
In a recent interview with Massively, Dan Stahl said: "Cryptic is focused on Star Trek Online and Neverwinter." Translation: We're pretty much ignoring everything else (Champions).

Ok, while I'm here... it's my hope that this report will stop people posting a ton of uninformed nonsense on these forums as they have been up to this point.

First of all, at 45% of NCSoft's profits can people please stop saying that Guild Wars 2 is dying or that it's a failure? GW2 has already made a TON of money and it looks like their player base is actually rising instead of dropping.

Another thing, Lineage. It's responsible for 24% of NCSoft's profit. It's 15 years old. It's just about the WoW of the asian world. No it doesn't make WoW type money, I mean that 15 years later and a ton of people still play it. It just keeps making money for NCSoft and it looks like it'll still be going strong for years to come.

Finally, NCSoft is making a ton of money. No matter what their stock price is, they're not in any financial danger whatsoever. Anyone who thinks so has no understanding of business.
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FatherXmas

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Re: NCsoft Q4 report.
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2013, 10:49:38 AM »
In a recent interview with Massively, Dan Stahl said: "Cryptic is focused on Star Trek Online and Neverwinter." Translation: We're pretty much ignoring everything else (Champions).

Ok, while I'm here... it's my hope that this report will stop people posting a ton of uninformed nonsense on these forums as they have been up to this point.

First of all, at 45% of NCSoft's profits can people please stop saying that Guild Wars 2 is dying or that it's a failure? GW2 has already made a TON of money and it looks like their player base is actually rising instead of dropping.

Another thing, Lineage. It's responsible for 24% of NCSoft's profit. It's 15 years old. It's just about the WoW of the asian world. No it doesn't make WoW type money, I mean that 15 years later and a ton of people still play it. It just keeps making money for NCSoft and it looks like it'll still be going strong for years to come.

Finally, NCSoft is making a ton of money. No matter what their stock price is, they're not in any financial danger whatsoever. Anyone who thinks so has no understanding of business.

Peregrine, you are confusing sales with profit.  We have no idea about profit and loss on a per game basis, just it's sales.  The only thing we do know about profit and loss is the company as a whole, including all it's subsidiaries, the parent company sans subsidiaries and sometimes each subsidiary.

Now adding to your points.

NCsoft announced back on Dec 28th that Lineage exceeded 220,000 concurrent players.  Four years ago, the last time they published concurrent user numbers, Lineage peak in Dec. 2008 was only 162,000.  Not a bad uptick for a 15 year old game.  Currently Lineage is the number two MMORPG in Korea.

Their cash on hand is up 108% to roughly $110 million USD.  On the other hand they've only borrowed $11 million USD.  Not a bad cash to debt ratio.  They have $287 million USD in short term investments.

They have a 20% profit margin in 2012, that is they make 20 cents on every dollar of revenue as after tax profit.  I'm sure they would rather have it at 25% like Nexon and Activision/Blizzard.  I guess they just have to settle on the 36% profit margin they made in the 4th quarter.

The company is doing fine.  They just had their first 100,000+ million KrW profit for a quarter ($93+ million USD).  To put it into perspective, that's more profit in one quarter than CoH made in sales it's first 3 years.  They have plenty of cash and short term investments, very little debt.

What we are seeing in the stock price are investors moving their money out of NCsoft because they believe in the short term it will make more money in other stocks or investments.  They simply don't believe anymore that the stock will ever get back to 370,000+ anytime soon, if ever.  The bubble burst.  14 months ago KDB Daewoo Securities set the 12 month price target at 600,000.  Yesterday they set it at 200,000 (there were several reductions in the price target in those 14 months, it wasn't all at once).  I think a number of investors are leaving until the analysts that follow NCsoft start guessing correctly again.  Or at least in the ballpark.

Edit: One last note.  NCsoft's stock in the last 6 months has declined from a peak of 286,500 on Sept 7th to today's close of 128,500, a 55% decline.  Apple stock's high in the last 6 months was 702.10 on Sept 19th and it closed yesterday at 457.35, a 35% decline.  I don't think anybody is saying Apple is going out of business.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 11:10:11 AM by FatherXmas »
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Knight Light

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Re: NCsoft Q4 report.
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2013, 03:05:34 PM »
at 45% of NCSoft's profits can people please stop saying that Guild Wars 2 is dying or that it's a failure?

No.