MMORPG - COH profitability

[Codewalker]

The problem with the breast physics in that game is that it's just wrong. In the videos I've seen they move more like water balloons than actual anatomy.

The biggest issue I have with the female models in B&S is ironically the same one I have with the ones in Champions Online -- the posture. The default (and I have to assume 'only') standing pose for all but the little kid race is with the back curved more than is normally possible and the butt sticking way out. It just looks painful and unnatural.

That and what was mentioned earlier about the lazy modeling of the clothes -- things like large metal buckles warping and twisting as you move because of the way they're bound to the bones.

Which is too bad, because the background scenery I've seen looks absolutely gorgeous, but the character animations (both male and female) are... meh. Not good.

[FatherXmas]

The game IS out, it's out in Korea (hooker version) and China (in a toned-down version that doesn't look like it will make it over here, instead we'll get the Korean hooker version). There is tons of footage from the game.

Mazz does have a point, without actually playing with the character creator ourselves and see if a more conservatively proportioned women is possible, all we have to go on are player and designer's creations.

[FatherXmas]

The problem with the breast physics in that game is that it's just wrong. In the videos I've seen they move more like water balloons than actual anatomy.

The biggest issue I have with the female models in B&S is ironically the same one I have with the ones in Champions Online -- the posture. The default (and I have to assume 'only') standing pose for all but the little kid race is with the back curved more than is normally possible and the butt sticking way out. It just looks painful and unnatural.

That and what was mentioned earlier about the lazy modeling of the clothes -- things like large metal buckles warping and twisting as you move because of the way they're bound to the bones.

Which is too bad, because the background scenery I've seen looks absolutely gorgeous, but the character animations (both male and female) are... meh. Not good.

Watch models on catwalks.  That posture is "standard" at a runway show and quite unrealistic IMO.  But they all do it, shoulders back, chest out, back arched one foot in front of the other so the hips sway.

[Little Green Frog]

Would it be too late to chime in with de gustibus non est disputandum?

Ah, to heck with it. Arguments over boob physics are just too captivating.

[Mazz vs The World]

Why are you fixated on the size of the breasts? I never mentioned the size of the tits. I honestly don't care how big the tits are in the game. Hell, City could make them go bigger! The problem I have is, they are the only thing with movement physics on them - and the movement physics are WRONG (boobs don't move like that! I know - I own a pair!). And the ladies walk/run like exaggerated catwalk models. Also, their legs take up more than half their body height and you CANNOT fix that with the customization options. Also, their waist/chest doesn't have enough room to contain their innards, and their hips/butt are big enough to contain two to three hips/butts.

Maybe we should just agree to disagree cause I know women who have much larger butts and hips not to mention natural breast and small waist. I mean they do not look that far off from the average athletic female minus the catwalk (lol). If I am being completely honest most women with that type of physique are of ethnic background. Not sure why people are going insane over the way the female characters look, once again the player makes them look that way. In COH I saw multiple disporportioned female toons with long long legs, big butt, slim slim waist, and huge boobs. There's nothing new here so we can just agree to disagree I do appreciate your opinion though and thanks for taking the time to respond to my little post :)

[Codewalker]

Watch models on catwalks.  That posture is "standard" at a runway show and quite unrealistic IMO.  But they all do it, shoulders back, chest out, back arched one foot in front of the other so the hips sway.

Yes, I've seen it before there, but it's definitely not something you see anyone except streetwalkers use on a daily basis.

Especially not when you're supposedly a legendary warrior preparing to fight off the evil of the week, or even a spandex-wearing crimefighter. :)

[Aggelakis]

Mazz does have a point, without actually playing with the character creator ourselves and see if a more conservatively proportioned women is possible, all we have to go on are player and designer's creations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtrfXssQFR8

You cannot overcome the designer's creations. There aren't sliders, you choose between a bunch of pregenerated ladies, with varying height/thickness/skin tone. Some of the ladies have the 'spam glisten' skin and some of them don't. All of them have inconceivable badonkadonk and legs that don't quit (at the expense of their chest/innards). All of them have water balloons (Codewalker  :-X ) glued to their chest.

[Codewalker]

There aren't sliders, you choose between a bunch of pregenerated ladies, with varying height/thickness/skin tone.

I thought there were sliders hidden away somewhere? I recall hearing something about how there are 3 separate boob sliders for women.

Need to go find a copy of that leaked server code that they've been using over in Korea and play around with the creator...

[Mazz vs The World]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtrfXssQFR8

You cannot overcome the designer's creations. There aren't sliders, you choose between a bunch of pregenerated ladies, with varying height/thickness/skin tone. Some of the ladies have the 'spam glisten' skin and some of them don't. All of them have inconceivable badonkadonk and legs that don't quit (at the expense of their chest/innards). All of them have water balloons (Codewalker  :-X ) glued to their chest.

This was uploaded Nov 18th 2011 and was in beta at that. Not a credible source for me to agree that you can't adjust the body features.

[FatherXmas]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtrfXssQFR8

You cannot overcome the designer's creations. There aren't sliders, you choose between a bunch of pregenerated ladies, with varying height/thickness/skin tone. Some of the ladies have the 'spam glisten' skin and some of them don't. All of them have inconceivable badonkadonk and legs that don't quit (at the expense of their chest/innards). All of them have water balloons (Codewalker  :-X ) glued to their chest.

There is an entire page of sliders for body down to finger length and individual bone length in the legs and arms.  They went fraking nuts when it came to what you could change.  For breasts besides chest size I believe I saw demonstrated sliders for separation, angle pointing apart and how high they ride.  This was in a character creation video where the player was just moving all the various sliders back and forth quickly without commentary so if you don't read Korean you have to watch closely and figure out what each slider was manipulating in the second or two.

Also that walk isn't the standard character movement, more like our walk movement power.

And I posted this video before showing off the character creator with some commentary in English.

Edit: The playing with the chest sliders is round the 10 minute mark in the video.  And there is only three, size, lift/firmness and spread/pointing.

[Starsman]

You have no idea what our version will look like.

NCSoft already made a public statement that despite ESRB ratings, the game will not be censored in any way and that they acknowledge that Hyung-Tae Kim's risqué style is part of the game's appeal.

Link

Quote from the link above:

It is NCSOFT West's intention to accurately depict the game in its original, unaltered form, with only minor adjustments for gameplay considerations.

Interesting thing, if you follow the link, even NCSoft acknowledges it's a game intended only for adults (over 18) as they won't let you enter the site unless you enter a birth date from 18 years ago or more.

It's OK to be a devil's advocate AFTER you do the homework.

[TonyV]

Your reaction is in line with uncanny valley hypothesis.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

I disagree.  I'm famliar with the "Uncanny Valley" phenomenon, but that's not what's at play here.  The point is that they've taken strides to make the characters not look human.  The Uncanny Valley kicks in when games or other creators are trying to make their work looks as if they are human.  I get exaggeration.  City of Heroes took artistic license in exaggerating features.  But Blade & Soul pushes past exaggeration into grotesque, and I honestly think that they'll pay the price in lousy sales and horrid retention as a result.

The problem with the breast physics in that game is that it's just wrong. In the videos I've seen they move more like water balloons than actual anatomy.

This is what I'm talking about.  I've never seen anyone's real breasts even come close to doing that.  Real breasts (including the results of "boob jobs") are relatively firm because there's a decent amount of solid tissue and fat under the skin; these look like they're bags of water or some other semi-viscous fluid sloshing back and forth.  Bouncy is sexy.  Sloshing not so much.  Given that breast physics was supposed to be something they were proud of, they failed miserably.  When I see them sloshing back and forth, it's not a turn-on, it's creepy because, along with other similar failures of character modelling, it's just not human-looking.

[Starsman]

Maybe we should just agree to disagree cause I know women who have much larger butts and hips not to mention natural breast and small waist.

My wife is... on the large side of the chest slider. They just don't move that way.... well maybe if i had a camera that took 1000 frames per second and played it in slow motion, and she was jumping a rope... (And I also had the privilege of seeing the surgically enhanced variety, they don't move at ALL... ok a VERY good job may move a BIT.)

I mean they do not look that far off from the average athletic female minus the catwalk (lol). If I am being completely honest most women with that type of physique are of ethnic background. Not sure why people are going insane over the way the female characters look, once again the player makes them look that way. In COH I saw multiple disporportioned female toons with long long legs, big butt, slim slim waist, and huge boobs. There's nothing new here so we can just agree to disagree I do appreciate your opinion though and thanks for taking the time to respond to my little post :)

It's not really about the size. It's about the physics. As I mentioned before, it's very clear the physics are not there for realism. The physics are there for sexualization. How can I tell? Because cloth and hair don't have any physics, any animation you see in either is simply stretching with the rest of the mesh skin as it moves, but breasts... they got singled out to get exaggerated physics wiggling.

Also mind you, I don't care how realistic or fake the wiggling is, but i do care about highlights. If you going to do physics work like this, you do it all the way (hair/cloth) or admit sexualization (and NCSoft does admit it with their own statements and web age filters)

You like that? It's all cool, but don't make up claims about realism (that are only real in dreams) or art direction (that the publisher itself is very clear about.)

[FatherXmas]

NCSoft already made a public statement that despite ESRB ratings, the game will not be censored in any way and that they acknowledge that Hyung-Tae Kim's risqué style is part of the game's appeal.

Link

Quote from the link above:

Interesting thing, if you follow the link, even NCSoft acknowledges it's a game intended only for adults (over 18) as they won't let you enter the site unless you enter a birth date from 18 years ago or more.

It's OK to be a devil's advocate AFTER you do the homework.

Well that's all well and good but when push comes to shove, what would they do if the game gets an M rating and then would prefer a T?  Yes you will end up with Diehard 4, watered down to achieve a wider possible audience.

[Starsman]

Well that's all well and good but when push comes to shove, what would they do if the game gets an M rating and then would prefer a T?  Yes you will end up with Diehard 4, watered down to achieve a wider possible audience.

I think if they were willing to do that compromise, they already would have softened the website content and removed the date of birth requirement.

I'm not one to give NCSoft credit right now for anything, but here I think they are sticking to their guns and the fans of the game in question. There MAY also be some clauses in the artists' contract. Hyung-Tae Kim is a very popular artist, the kind that gets to actually demand respect for his artistic vision in writing.

[Mazz vs The World]

My wife is... on the large side of the chest slider. They just don't move that way.... well maybe if i had a camera that took 1000 frames per second and played it in slow motion, and she was jumping a rope... (And I also had the privilege of seeing the surgically enhanced variety, they don't move at ALL... ok a VERY good job may move a BIT.)

It's not really about the size. It's about the physics. As I mentioned before, it's very clear the physics are not there for realism. The physics are there for sexualization. How can I tell? Because cloth and hair don't have any physics, any animation you see in either is simply stretching with the rest of the mesh skin as it moves, but breasts... they got singled out to get exaggerated physics wiggling.

Also mind you, I don't care how realistic or fake the wiggling is, but i do care about highlights. If you going to do physics work like this, you do it all the way (hair/cloth) or admit sexualization (and NCSoft does admit it with their own statements and web age filters)

You like that? It's all cool, but don't make up claims about realism (that are only real in dreams) or art direction (that the publisher itself is very clear about.)

Once again why do you care how the breast move?? Unless they get in the way of your powers or combat who cares?? You know how to fix this, make the breast as small as possible?? I honestly didn't like the fact that in COH, nothing moved not even the hair, but i didn't complain about it. Great for your wife if she is on the bigger side when it comes to breast but one would have to analyze her athleticism to determine why her breast moves the way they do. Rosie O'Donnels and Beyonce's breast will not move the same way while jumping rope. I'm pretty sure you understand this as you seem to be intelligent. Perhaps NCSoft achieved it's goal cause most aren't even looking at the game but instead looking at the female characters breast! Also perhaps they want to keep people who overanalyze games out of their gaming community, it was one of the things I hated most about the COH community, stop over analyzing and just play the damn game? It's not that big of a deal IMO have you ever played Dead or Alive, or the Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball both have similiar "physics" to B&S and both were fun if you looked past the obvious sexualized female movement.

NCSoft already made a public statement that despite ESRB ratings, the game will not be censored in any way and that they acknowledge that Hyung-Tae Kim's risqué style is part of the game's appeal.

Link

Quote from the link above:

Interesting thing, if you follow the link, even NCSoft acknowledges it's a game intended only for adults (over 18) as they won't let you enter the site unless you enter a birth date from 18 years ago or more.

It's OK to be a devil's advocate AFTER you do the homework.

This does not actually mean anything besides the game will resemble the other versions of B&S and like FatherXmas pointed out there are sliders where you can control the size and LOOK of your character. This should help the physics aspect you find so abnormal. Think about it, if you make a character look abnormal (big breast, big butt, non-existing waist) no matter what the physics are you will move abnormaly.

As i have stated already we can agree to disagree thanks for your opinion and lets just get COH back so we can all be happy and get rid of the HATE!

[WildFire15]

I think it goes a long way to show how unremarkable B&S is if that's all we can find worth talking about in it.

[Little Green Frog]

As i have stated already we can agree to disagree thanks for your opinion and lets just get COH back so we can all be happy and get rid of the HATE!

Relax, there is no hate involved, only a difference of opinion.

[Starsman]

Once again why do you care how the breast move??

Very similar reason why I care about some one using their phone in the movie theather. Large breasts can be ignored, breasts that jump and bounce and move more than the players attacks... not so much.

Not to mention, playing this in a house where a kid may walk by and see what's woobling on screen... I don't think so.

But again, if YOU dont mind, great, you can enjoy the game. I hope you understand I don't have to forgive the game myself.

Great for your wife if she is on the bigger side when it comes to breast but one would have to analyze her athleticism to determine why her breast moves the way they do.

Human breasts are mostly fatty tissue, unless they are extremely small. No matter how athletic the woman, breasts wont become muscle bound unless they were naturally very lean on fat (or had a reduction surgery.) At such cases, they move even less.

Rosie O'Donnels and Beyonce's breast will not move the same way while jumping rope.

They would move even more, although it would not be exactly something I'd like to ever see.

It's not that big of a deal IMO have you ever played Dead or Alive, or the Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball both have similiar "physics" to B&S and both were fun if you looked past the obvious sexualized female movement.

I would question the fun factor of the dead or alive series. It also oversexualizes everything, and it has a very shallow combat system (although I sort of enjoyed the, at the time origina, environment switch via destruction of walls.) I already noted, though, that at least Dead or Alive did not just make boobies wiggle. They added physics to everything. Hair, cloth, weapons, everything.

Oh, and also: they never hid their intentions in DoA, nor did they ever complain about the fact that every game in the series has been rated M.

If I can turn off the breast wiggling, and block all body oil shine (on all characters, not just mine,) MAYBE the game would have some redemption (well to be fair, the proportions of characters still make them look like aliens so nah still no visual appeal.)

As i have stated already we can agree to disagree thanks for your opinion and lets just get COH back so we can all be happy and get rid of the HATE!

There is no hate here. Only people expressing their opinion and a lot of jokes being shared. You do sound like you are hating the fact that others don't like the game's over sexualization, though.

[JaguarX]

I think it goes a long way to show how unremarkable B&S is if that's all we can find worth talking about in it.

yeah. There seems to be alot of emphasis on the breasts. I'm not sure what is more creepy. The breasts in the game or the amount of focus that people that say they dont like them are giving them.