Author Topic: MMORPG - COH profitability  (Read 88457 times)

Starsman

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #480 on: January 17, 2013, 02:49:09 PM »
"Allegedly" many Korean businessfolk don't like doing business with people they don't already know, unless they're introduced to the outsider by someone that they do know.

Wow... that fits me perfectly... does this means I'm Korean?!

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But that was something I found while reading all the external links on the infamous Kibun thread, so who the heck knows how accurate that bit of info is. I brought it up at some point but it got completely ignored.

I think the description fits everyone. I happen to know someone very high up at Nissan (an American just for the record) and unless she is sent directly to deal with someone by superiors or peers, she will not talk to anybody that she has not been strongly referred to by people she already strongly trust.

This has little room when you are liquidating off stuff, though. But for regular business, that describes nearly anyone that rather not be bankrupt within a month.
For the sake of the community: please stop the cultural "research" in your attempt to put blame on the game's cancelation.

It's sickening to see the community sink that low. It's worse to see the community does not get it.

I'm signing off and taking a break, blindly hope things change.

Starsman

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #481 on: January 17, 2013, 03:08:55 PM »
For the sake of the community: please stop the cultural "research" in your attempt to put blame on the game's cancelation.

It's sickening to see the community sink that low. It's worse to see the community does not get it.

I'm signing off and taking a break, blindly hope things change.

WolfSoul

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #482 on: January 17, 2013, 03:26:08 PM »
I don' t care "why" anymore.  Just give me my damn game back!!

Segev

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #483 on: January 17, 2013, 03:31:19 PM »
That's kind-of the point. No, not every American does behave that way nor share that cultural value. However, if you see an American acting in accordance with said value and the behavior seems entirely nonsensical absent that context, it is not wrong to wonder if that value is an explanation.

As for "tearing this community apart," all who are on any "side" of that torn divide are potentially to blame. It is easy to point to "the other side" and say they're at fault, but that basically is saying, "Agree with me or YOU are the bad guy." Which is, itself, a relatively divisive position to take.

I'm sorry there are people being offended by this. However, while there might be some who are stooping to genuine racism and slurs, that is not what most are doing. If somebody wishes to take only the worst they can find and take offense at that, or to read something into a point that is not there and take offense at THAT, no ground is gained by catering to such professionally offended people; they will find something else at which to take offense, until those they choose to be offended by stop saying anything at all that they don't want to hear.

I am not saying all who have been "driven off" are like this, but I will stipulate that we probably have people who were "driven off" by the perception that this movement is anti-capitalist because it dares criticize a corporation's decisions. That is patently false, but we are not going to stop criticizing NCSoft just because it can be misconstrued and drive people off.

Starsman

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #484 on: January 17, 2013, 03:42:51 PM »
As for "tearing this community apart," all who are on any "side" of that torn divide are potentially to blame. It is easy to point to "the other side" and say they're at fault, but that basically is saying, "Agree with me or YOU are the bad guy." Which is, itself, a relatively divisive position to take.

It's not about sides. Nothing is about sides. It's about people growing sick of it and leaving. I'm not even talking about the few that insist to pursue this and get angry when people don't agree with them.

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I'm sorry there are people being offended by this. However, while there might be some who are stooping to genuine racism and slurs, that is not what most are doing. If somebody wishes to take only the worst they can find and take offense at that, or to read something into a point that is not there and take offense at THAT, no ground is gained by catering to such professionally offended people; they will find something else at which to take offense, until those they choose to be offended by stop saying anything at all that they don't want to hear.

1) For the most part, anything that attempts to stamp umbrella behavioral characteristics to any given culture IS racist (or culturacist?) and will offend people. This is well warranted and not oversensitivity.
2) You will "gain no ground" by pursuing the "cultural influence" path. In fact, you are likely to lose ground and lots of it.

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but we are not going to stop criticizing NCSoft just because it can be misconstrued and drive people off.

Criticize NCSoft all you want but stop trying to make it about nationality.
For the sake of the community: please stop the cultural "research" in your attempt to put blame on the game's cancelation.

It's sickening to see the community sink that low. It's worse to see the community does not get it.

I'm signing off and taking a break, blindly hope things change.

Segev

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #485 on: January 17, 2013, 03:51:52 PM »
It isn't "about" nationality, but pretending that NCSoft is steeped solely in the cultural values of my own homeland would be just plain stupid.

"Culturalist"-ism is not inherently wrong. IF it was, then "culture" would have no meaning, because there wouldn't be standards of behavior that are similar across a group of people.

Trying to understand standard of behavior and view actions in their context is useful. I know I'm not saying "Koreans and their culture suck!" or any such nonsense. Cultural elements can lead to good and bad behaviors. In this case, the cultural context helps understand where the motive for particular bad behaviors came from. Conversely, if a Korean company showed unusual concern for the feelings of its American subsidiary, and seemed almost to read the minds of its employees by pre-emptively offering and providing support just where it's needed, we might be baffled at the sometimes-bad-for-the-profits behaviors...until we examined Korean culture and discovered kibun and, more importantly, nunchi. There is merit in these concepts, just as there is potential harm. It is all in how the individual applies them. But understanding that they exist can only help provide context for behaviors witnessed.

HarvesterOfEyes

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #486 on: January 17, 2013, 04:39:03 PM »
1) For the most part, anything that attempts to stamp umbrella behavioral characteristics to any given culture IS racist (or culturacist?) and will offend people. This is well warranted and not oversensitivity.

culture != race

One you are taught and the other you are born with. (I maintain there is only one "race" but that is a different topic.)

You may believe that culture has no bearing on business decisions, but there are entire academic institutions dedicated to the opposite belief.

JaguarX

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #487 on: January 17, 2013, 05:17:20 PM »
topics of culture/race, religion and politics have always been very touchy topics.

I think some people are a little bit too zealous to group and or assign major culture significant on a buisness decision but I do not think it's far fetched IF all the facts and actual reasons behind it was more stated. With NCSoft, it's all guess work so it's just as likely to be about culture as it is about little aliens taking over the brains of people and is on a secrect mission to take over the planet starting with destroying COX.  Who knows. 

What happened to Paragon Studios I've seen happen to all types of buisnesses, including American buisnesses, from all types of industries, which to me personally, seems like it wasnt so muc has a culture clash as just a routine buisness decision (for better or worse). Parent company closes down a subsids./branch/independent "thing" that they so happen to own/departments/"insert various other names".

Some Americans like straight forward or are straight forward but really that is more of an old stereotype more than anything. If that was the case then you'd have a lot more people telling their bosses, how it really is and getting a raise for it. Usually in reality what happens very often is they end up fired, even if they was right. If it was true that all Americans like straight forward talk, then one, there would be no such thing as office politics as everyone would be free to speak their mind, two politicians wouldnt have to lie and such, there wouldnt be as much classified information, news wouldnt feel the need to have to put a spin or "spruce" up the facts a bit for ratings, Reality TV would not exist, and everyday activities like credit cards, car shopping/financing, banking and etc would be straight up "hey, you buy this car, you'll pay double in the long run" instead of the games that are played. Some people like straight forward talk and some people cant take it, whether they are American, Korean, Indian, Native American, Africa, European, Japanese, Austrailian, Brazilian, Columbian, some weird guy that have no idea what he is, and etc. It's more about the individual person. But some humans seem to want to have to group everything together. They date one German and had bad experience and they want to go around saying all German girls are bad. Or a Turkish company stop shipping a product that is popular in America, and someone wants to make the reason be it's because they are Muslim and hate America (even though not all Turkish are Muslims and not all Muslims, nor majority of them, hate Americans. But to that particular person, their view is reality and all Germans girls are crazy and all Turkish people hate Americans in their eyes.

But we are here for the same purpose and reason. COX is gone. Lets not do NCSoft job for them as the easiest way to defeat an enemy is to divide and conqour. Some people are doing a good job at it by making it seem as if the decision is wholly or mostly or significantly based on Korean culture. It may be or may not be, but just as people dont like to be judged and dont like people making assumptions about them without knowing the facts about them, people tend to take offense when a person does that to their culture or other cultures. We ask other people to feel our pain from losing a game and community yet, some here seem to cant see and say the same things that outsiders say about many of us for going with this cause; over sensative to being offended (as some people have stated being offended by NCSoft decision to kill the game and their follow up actions) yet a person is being over sensative when someone disses or make generalizations or tie NCSoft behavior which is mostly panned as negative here among us, as due to their culture? How can people here expect others to understand and feel our pain over a closed game when many cant even do the same when it comes to simple culture and are quick to say people are being over sensative? I've seen how many people reacted when people said that people that was mourning the loss was being over sensative and over reacting to a game that was closed and to the statements like "it's just a game."

Hopefully not too straight forward for some, but the main point is, if this community is going to be destroyed, let it be destroyed in battle, not self destruct over misunderstandings about culture. No one likes their entire culture, especially for people that take pride in their culture, to be put into a tiny box where it is assumed that everyone acts the same way thinks the same and etc. Hell, what we have here, about a few hundred people, and look at the different personalities, and views and as said with it's wrong to judge this community by the behavior of a few it's the same concept for culture. I see some people do not mean any harm and just trying to understand but some comes off as a a little borderline hatred for Korean culture, even though that may not be their intentions.


I've lived in Korea for a stint. Know how many Koreans talked about Kibun as being their sole motivation in life and rules they follow? None. Some believe in it some dont, some follow it some dont. Some talk about from time to time some never even mentioned it. Some eat with forks some with chopsticks, some wear Jordans, some where Gucci, some drive Benzes, some ride scooters, some do buisness and are rich with a Ferrari in the garage and live in a Penthouse, some are poor. Some eat traditional Korean food, some prefer McDonalds, Arby's and a good texas steak and fries. And like many stereotypes, there are always some that will fit the bill to the teeth but as usual, only very small percentage. If I was to judge by a few statements and apply that as the complete person behind the desk, they would live up to the stereotype of Americans, Americans-lazy, obnoxious, judgemental, closed minded, hate anything not American or the American way, and hate everyone that not American. Which I dont think applies to 99.9% of the american population but if I was to use the logic that is being used with NCSoft, then that stereotype above would make sense but it dont to me so I also dont see how NCSoft decision especially with the lack of information on the reason, unless they recently released more information from NCSoft that I just dont know about, makes sense to come to the conclusion that the decison is based off Korean culture.

Knight Light

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #488 on: January 17, 2013, 05:59:03 PM »
ENOUGH!

This thread is called CoH Profitability. We are gaining zero ground by arguing whether or not cultural differences is a valid avenue to attempt to explain what happened, we already know that where you are from will have some influence on how a person thinks.

Here is the real reason why Kim Taek-Jin and his executives shut down City of Heroes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYWbatgKN4g

Can we stop running in redundant circles?

Can we get back to "CoH was profitable, this was an unethical shut down; let's find the proof."?

The only reference I want to hear to cultural differences from now on is in regards to advice on how not to offend our Asian friends in the process of getting our City back.

Arcana

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #489 on: January 17, 2013, 07:43:34 PM »
It isn't "about" nationality, but pretending that NCSoft is steeped solely in the cultural values of my own homeland would be just plain stupid.
That's technically true, but the alternative should not be to pretend that reading a few articles on the internet provides any reasonable basis for making a cultural analysis.

I'm sometimes annoyed when someone tries to debate a technical matter they very clearly have limited or no knowledge about, and no amount of google searching and wikipedia reading can compensate for that.  I'm not personally easily offended myself, but I can easily imagine how superficial dissection of culture can be offensive to others.

If you want to learn about a culture, that's great.  The more energy spent learning the better I say.  However, its dangerous to immediately turn around and attempt to apply that knowledge to actual people.  People do not like to be superficially analyzed in general.  Its far too easy for superficial analysis to turn into caricaturization.

In any case, I have no idea how knowledge of Kibun helps in any way.  As Rama Kandra would say, Kibun is a word, what matters is the concept the word represents.  And while *some* Koreans are more introspective about it, Kibun is not something only Koreans have, its just something Koreans actually have a word for.  We all have Kibun, just like we all experience Schadenfreude.  Its not a feeling only Germans have.  Its just a feeling Germans specifically have a term for.

What Koreans call "respecting others Kibun" we call "not being an asshat."  And to the Koreans out there: no, there's no specific American cultural importance to comparing someone to misplaced headgear per se.

JaguarX

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #490 on: January 17, 2013, 08:45:16 PM »
That's technically true, but the alternative should not be to pretend that reading a few articles on the internet provides any reasonable basis for making a cultural analysis.

I'm sometimes annoyed when someone tries to debate a technical matter they very clearly have limited or no knowledge about, and no amount of google searching and wikipedia reading can compensate for that.  I'm not personally easily offended myself, but I can easily imagine how superficial dissection of culture can be offensive to others.

If you want to learn about a culture, that's great.  The more energy spent learning the better I say.  However, its dangerous to immediately turn around and attempt to apply that knowledge to actual people.  People do not like to be superficially analyzed in general.  Its far too easy for superficial analysis to turn into caricaturization.

In any case, I have no idea how knowledge of Kibun helps in any way.  As Rama Kandra would say, Kibun is a word, what matters is the concept the word represents.  And while *some* Koreans are more introspective about it, Kibun is not something only Koreans have, its just something Koreans actually have a word for.  We all have Kibun, just like we all experience Schadenfreude.  Its not a feeling only Germans have.  Its just a feeling Germans specifically have a term for.

What Koreans call "respecting others Kibun" we call "not being an asshat."  And to the Koreans out there: no, there's no specific American cultural importance to comparing someone to misplaced headgear per se.

Kind of like positive and negative qi.

Nafaustu

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #491 on: January 17, 2013, 09:26:09 PM »
So we know City of Heroes was a profitable game and it appears that our analysts have been able to extrapolate that paragon studios as a whole, which was quite bloated beyond the needs of COH, was probably not profitable.

How can we best utilize this information?

Arcana

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #492 on: January 17, 2013, 10:46:42 PM »
So we know City of Heroes was a profitable game and it appears that our analysts have been able to extrapolate that paragon studios as a whole, which was quite bloated beyond the needs of COH, was probably not profitable.

How can we best utilize this information?
Unless someone is trying to start a game development company, I'm not sure.

Segev

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #493 on: January 17, 2013, 10:59:41 PM »
<_< >_>

Kuriositys Kat

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #494 on: January 17, 2013, 11:20:55 PM »
So we know City of Heroes was a profitable game and it appears that our analysts have been able to extrapolate that paragon studios as a whole, which was quite bloated beyond the needs of COH, was probably not profitable.

How can we best utilize this information?

Unfortunately we need more data, maybe others can come up with the data unfortunately I don't read Korean otherwise I would be reading  their newspapers and blogs to see if I can find trends.  The bad part about sourcing information data from a foreign country is something ALWAYS gets lost in translation.  Plus major wire services  get column inches of stories that they don't always pass on.  I have a gut wrenching suspicion that the information we want is out there in public and buried in a minor article that never got picked up by the wire services.
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NecrotechMaster

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #495 on: January 18, 2013, 12:16:13 AM »
i think a majority of the data is still being kept quiet, either by ncsoft or by the hail mary team due to the sensitivity of it

houtex

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #496 on: January 18, 2013, 02:13:31 AM »
Has this article from Massively been mentioned here yet?  The whole "Paragon as the accounting fall guy" angle... sounds like the way it went to me:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/01/16/a-mild-mannered-reporter-how-superheroes-died-and-why-its-good/

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First of all, there's the theory that Paragon Studios was essentially the write-off studio, that costs associated with Guild Wars 2 and WildStar were essentially being funneled down and earmarked on another studio's balance in addition to the second unannounced MMO that Paragon was working on. The fact that Davis makes it clear that Paragon Studios itself was the unprofitable part gives this theory new legs. I'm obviously fond of Carbine Studios, but it's a studio that has released a grand total of zero games ever, and ArenaNet wasn't raking in money from the original Guild Wars as the sequel's design time dragged on. Someone has to take the fall, right?

Still really underhanded crap, but... yeah.  Most likely scenario, ya ask me.

ukaserex

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #497 on: January 18, 2013, 02:48:33 AM »
I have said before that the reason the ending of CoH has made such a tremendous impact on many of the players is that overall, many felt like the closing was done in a hasty manner with little rhyme or reason.

Without explanations, some players seem to be googling their fingers to the bone searching for answers. Others simply move on. As has been stated before, CoH was profitable.
Paragon Studios, saddled with development costs for some other project, was not profitable. This is where things get hazy and crazy. Isn't it all just accounting? Yes, that's exactly what it is. It pains me terribly to say this, because I know that it may seem less than compassionate. CoH closed down because  (in no special order)
1) some new players were trickling in, but a lot of players were "taking a break" or leaving the game to try out SWTOR, and I suppose before that, Rift and Champions. This impacts the remaining players experience. Some players are now left with fewer teammates, so they also might take a break.
This would imply less revenue.
2) NCSoft knows that Paragon Studios has a large payroll from the 2nd MMO that never saw the light of day. Accounting being what it is, they knew if they shut down Paragon Studios they would no longer have to pay this payroll. If, in fact, the costs from Paragon exceed the profits from CoH, then it's simply a business decision. Good ? Bad? Me, I'd be thinking it would have been better to just keep rolling along. Let Paragon keep doing its thing, and hope the 2nd MMO is as good as CoH. Would it be? Probably not. If it were, only some would play and pay for both. The rest might try the new game and like that one more and drop CoH - or split time and payments between the two. Either way, odds are that the new game wouldn't have brought NCSoft new players with more money. (can we say "advertise"? )
3) By most accounts, despite incredible results from incredible efforts from the devs, a lot of players found CoH to need better graphics to be competitive. Because of the age of the game, and the way the engine worked, they were only going to be able to do so much. Myself, I thought they looked too much like a comic book - which was probably how they were supposed to look. I wanted my heroes to look real, like I was watching a movie.
4) The economy was and still is in the gutter. We could do a cost analysis until we're blue in the face, but, if Suzy doesn't have the money to buy the new sash with paragon points, then Suzy can't support CoH. Suzy can love the game and play it 18 hours a day, but if Suzy doesn't spend, Suzy isn't supporting the game. Will the economy improve? Odds are it will. Economics are a cycle. But, in this given day and age of the internet and information being so readily available, prudent folks will not likely invest current dollars if future dollars are not as likely. ( A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush and a fish in the pan is worth all the fish in the sea. )

Now that I've said that, the idea of the game being closed down because of money seems more  reasonable. But why won't they sell the IP? Because they know how good the game is. They may yet use a lot of the parts of the game to aid other games, or develop a new one - just not right now. I am thinking that even if they did sell the game, CoH would never be the same. It would be different because no other publisher is going to run things exactly the way NCSoft did. Some things they would do worse, others they would do better. The player base would change. Folks that had never heard of CoH until it closed would try it, but a lot of the players that left for another game might never return.

Still, it is a valid and valiant effort to keep a united front and pray and/or work towards a new CoH clone, or the same CoH.
However, bringing culture into the argument is a good thing. Bringing arguments about culture is not a good thing.
Y'all have a nice day.
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Arcana

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #498 on: January 18, 2013, 03:24:15 AM »
Has this article from Massively been mentioned here yet?  The whole "Paragon as the accounting fall guy" angle... sounds like the way it went to me:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/01/16/a-mild-mannered-reporter-how-superheroes-died-and-why-its-good/
 
Still really underhanded crap, but... yeah.  Most likely scenario, ya ask me.

Its not the first time I've heard that theory, and there exists circumstantial evidence to support it.  However, as creative as accounting can sometimes get, I cannot construct a scenario where that's actually possible to do in a way that would survive audit.  What's more, because those numbers were not publicly available, there appears to be little reason to do it: fiddling with the numbers to make Paragon look unprofitable only makes sense if someone other than the people basically lying about it can see the numbers and be convinced by them.  But who could that be in this situation?

My current best guess is that this was a situation where people believed what they wanted to believe.  There's two ways to look at Paragon financially: as a profitable game plus a development section working on a new game with no current revenue.  That perspective makes it seem that the studio is profitable, and reinvesting those profits into new development.  The alternate view is that Paragon was a dev studio that was spending almost as much money as its work was bringing in in revenue.  That perspective makes it seem that the studio was a mostly break even venture that has little net value.  If you wanted to be rid of Paragon, the second narrative would be easy to sell to you.  Combine distressed financials with a prior motivation to close the studio and a financial narrative to justify it, and you have a closed studio and a shuttered game.

That's really all it takes.

The question as to why someone at NC wanted to be rid of Paragon also has a reasonable conjecture.  Its not that they wanted to be rid of it so much as they lacked a reason to keep it.  I believe the rationale for acquiring Paragon and City of Heroes in the first place was two-fold.  One: they wanted City of Heroes to be part of a larger expansion into the western MMO market.  Two: they wanted the studio to work on new properties to expand the brand.

Reason one vaporized in the fallout from Tabula Rasa.  That left reason two.  And then problems between the studio and NCsoft in terms of getting agreement on new titles made reason two seem less tenable.

Reason one gone, reason two gone.  NC now had no reason *to* keep Paragon.  And I believe at that point financial reasoning went out the window, and someone decided it they couldn't have it no one would, unless NC could claim a huge financial victory in selling it by selling for an incredibly high price.  Which explains the rumors that NC was asking for ridiculous amounts for the property, and is also the basis for NC's public statement that they couldn't find a "strong enough" buyer.

And here we are.


There's only one other thing I can think of to add to this narrative, and it has to do with accounting rules.  Under the accounting rules of the last few years, the development expenses of Paragon Studios could be capitalized and amortized as R&D.  *Except* that requires among other things the reasonable belief that the intangible asset being created has a reasonable likelihood of being completed and made ready for sale.  If the rumors are true that Paragon kept developing and pitching ideas to NCsoft and NCsoft kept shooting them down, every time that happened all the dev costs Paragon incurred for that project would then have to be immediately expensed.  In effect, every time NC vetoed a new title, it made Paragon more and more expensive to operate in the accounting sense, because none of that development could be amortized into future years when presumably NC would have been earning revenue from that title.

Someone high up should have understood the ramifications of what was happening.  Should, but I would bet not.

NecrotechMaster

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #499 on: January 18, 2013, 06:15:11 AM »
well its possible paragon as a whole was unprofitable because ncsoft purposely unloaded extra work on them by having more than half of their 80 staff working on some secondary game that wasnt even related to coh

say they had 30 poeple working on coh and the game itself was profitable that it could maintain the costs of the servers and 40, maybe 50 poeple at paragon, as a whole paragon would be losing money then because the game itself couldnt support the entire studio especially with 0 advertising or basically anything to try to bring in new poeple

and as was noted paragon studios hasnt exactly liked working with ncsoft to begin with which is why they have tried before the closure announcement to possibly split from them


based on what i read, i think the root of the reason why the studio was shutdown was due to malice but ncsoft is making it look like nonprofitability of the studio