Is it me, or are we in a "dark" age of gaming?

[Samuel Tow]

[Tenzhi]

I really enjoyed Legend of Korra up until the end.  It felt like it was rushed to a conclusion that needed more buildup and then more time to properly play out (undoubtedly because it wasn't certain to have any more episodes and they didn't want to leave it open if it wasn't going to get more).  But nowhere along the way did I find it particularly depressing, much less soul-crushing.  Heck, there were far more depressing bits in The Last Airbender - usually involving Zuko and/or his uncle, though Aang had his moments.  Actually, a depressing tale to generate sympathy and attachment to one of the characters in Korra would have been a boon.

[Samuel Tow]

Having a protagonist who consistently fails at everything in a spectacular, humiliating fashion and getting captured more often than Princess Peach and an antagonist who never loses at anything ever right up until he's basically cheated at the end is, to me, depressing.

[Mister Bison]

I really enjoyed Legend of Korra up until the end.  It felt like it was rushed to a conclusion that needed more buildup and then more time to properly play out (undoubtedly because it wasn't certain to have any more episodes and they didn't want to leave it open if it wasn't going to get more).  But nowhere along the way did I find it particularly depressing, much less soul-crushing.  Heck, there were far more depressing bits in The Last Airbender - usually involving Zuko and/or his uncle, though Aang had his moments.  Actually, a depressing tale to generate sympathy and attachment to one of the characters in Korra would have been a boon.

Is that an IPhone game ?

[corvus1970]

Having a protagonist who consistently fails at everything in a spectacular, humiliating fashion and getting captured more often than Princess Peach and an antagonist who never loses at anything ever right up until he's basically cheated at the end is, to me, depressing.

God, 1000x this.

[Arachnion]

Is that an IPhone game ?

Uhh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Korra

Nope.

[FatherXmas]

I don't know what Korra you were all watching but I don't remember her failing at everything she tried (other than airbending) or being captured constantly (other than that one time at the end).  You have to remember that most of her life she was secluded from the world so she had a bit of an ego problem and what follows is what normally happens when your ego gets splashed with the cold water of the real world, suddenly realizing that "your aren't all that" you made yourself out to be.

As for the chief big bad, yea, he really shouldn't have shown off his bending but it was that or death/serious injury (IIRC he was blown out of a high window).  I would say it was an instinctual use than a choice on his part.

Please correct me.

[Tenzhi]

Having a protagonist who consistently fails at everything in a spectacular, humiliating fashion and getting captured more often than Princess Peach and an antagonist who never loses at anything ever right up until he's basically cheated at the end is, to me, depressing.

To me that's just an average day in Shonen land.  There has to be actual sadness to depress me.  What you describe sounds more like disappointment or perhaps a lack of satisfaction.

[Mister Bison]

To me that's just an average day in Shonen land.  There has to be actual sadness to depress me.  What you describe sounds more like disappointment or perhaps a lack of satisfaction.

Or he was focusing on the villain's point of view. Which if I take his snarky description of the story told as truth, I also find kind of depressing. No other defeat tastes more bitter than when you throwed all the way like a god, and in the end you fumble like a noob.

[Samuel Tow]

I don't know what Korra you were all watching but I don't remember her failing at everything she tried (other than airbending) or being captured constantly (other than that one time at the end).

Well, what did she succeed at? Like, anything at all that can be attributed to her own actions?

Also, getting captured: Once right at the start by the city police - tied up and brought in. Then again in her very first meeting with Chi-Blockers in an alley, just incapacitated. Then again in her dream, but I guess that doesn't count. Then by the big bad who strings her up, insults her and lets her go. Then again at the "bending championship" finals - tied up below the stage. Then again, in Sato's underground base - shocked, tied up, loaded into a truck. Then again by the bloodbender guy - tied up, tossed in a truck, taken to a shack in the woods, thrown in a cage. I think I'm forgetting one before the end, but right at the end several times. Once when she's hiding from the big bad like he's a frikkin' Slasher villain, then pulled out by the wrist and incapacitated, then once more when he takes her bending. Honestly, I think she gets captured more in 12 episodes than Aang did in three 24-episode seasons, and HE got captured a lot! And where Aang would usually break out, nearly every time Korra had to be saved.

And what kills me about the big bad is throughout the entire series, he never fails at anything. Not a single time. It gets ridiculous after a while, to the point where the fat guy (Sokka's stand-in) had to comment about how "Every time we come up with a plan, he comes up with a better plan!" I mean, seriously, just how anachronistic future technologies can Sato invent? He invented the automobile, giant electorwhip robots, WW2 divebombers, invisible electric fences, portable shock gloves, underground superfactories, giant three-feet-thick walls of pure platinum impervious to Metalbenders, airships, regular ships, submarines, night vision goggles. Basically, every time the plot makes it look like the good guys have done something right, Sato pulls out the GM's trick card of having secretly invented exactly what it takes to destroy the heroes' advantage.

I mean my god! Throw them a bone! Because if you don't, it won't take me long to figure out that Korra will always lose and Amon will always win, and then the entire show becomes predictable. After about Episode 6 or 7 - whenever the "Korra kidnapped and taken to the woods was" - I could pretty much call it right down the card. You give me the set-up, I give you the results, and I was almost always right. In fact, when those window-washers with the power gloves attacked Tenzen at the start of the rebellion and he DID'T get knocked out and taken hostage, that threw me for a serious loop. It didn't last.

The Legend of Korra has everything I never wanted to see in a story. It's an endless parade of failure that started off dramatic, went into pathetic and then rolled over into fetish-creepy by the end. I was seriously getting the feeling someone was getting off on torturing the poor girl. Ew!

Or he was focusing on the villain's point of view. Which if I take his snarky description of the story told as truth, I also find kind of depressing. No other defeat tastes more bitter than when you throwed all the way like a god, and in the end you fumble like a noob.

My description may be snarky, but it's not too far from the truth. Korra is given some minor victories here and there, usually against foes that don't matter or against her own attitude, but Amon - the big bad - never, ever, EVER fails at anything he attempts the entire season. Not a single thing. Whenever he engages in hand-to-hand combat, he always wins clean and never suffers so much as a hit. When he has plans, they always succeed. If they look like they're failing, that's just what he WANTS you to think, and he was playing the heroes all along. Whenever Korra gets involved, she either freezes in fear or is forced to run. And even when he loses, he hasn't really lost. He takes ONE hit that knocks him through a window and reveals his scam, but he's fine. Unhurt and pissed off, as a point of fact, but retreats without anyone being able to do anything to stop him. The only way he's finally defeated is by a person he trusts who's so emotionally broken that he commits suicide and kills them both in a fiery explosion.

Even Lord Nemesis doesn't have that kind of track record and his whole thing was that his losses were just diversions.

[emu265]

Well, what did she succeed at? Like, anything at all that can be attributed to her own actions?

Also, getting captured: Once right at the start by the city police - tied up and brought in. Then again in her very first meeting with Chi-Blockers in an alley, just incapacitated. Then again in her dream, but I guess that doesn't count. Then by the big bad who strings her up, insults her and lets her go. Then again at the "bending championship" finals - tied up below the stage. Then again, in Sato's underground base - shocked, tied up, loaded into a truck. Then again by the bloodbender guy - tied up, tossed in a truck, taken to a shack in the woods, thrown in a cage. I think I'm forgetting one before the end, but right at the end several times. Once when she's hiding from the big bad like he's a frikkin' Slasher villain, then pulled out by the wrist and incapacitated, then once more when he takes her bending. Honestly, I think she gets captured more in 12 episodes than Aang did in three 24-episode seasons, and HE got captured a lot! And where Aang would usually break out, nearly every time Korra had to be saved.

And what kills me about the big bad is throughout the entire series, he never fails at anything. Not a single time. It gets ridiculous after a while, to the point where the fat guy (Sokka's stand-in) had to comment about how "Every time we come up with a plan, he comes up with a better plan!" I mean, seriously, just how anachronistic future technologies can Sato invent? He invented the automobile, giant electorwhip robots, WW2 divebombers, invisible electric fences, portable shock gloves, underground superfactories, giant three-feet-thick walls of pure platinum impervious to Metalbenders, airships, regular ships, submarines, night vision goggles. Basically, every time the plot makes it look like the good guys have done something right, Sato pulls out the GM's trick card of having secretly invented exactly what it takes to destroy the heroes' advantage.

I mean my god! Throw them a bone! Because if you don't, it won't take me long to figure out that Korra will always lose and Amon will always win, and then the entire show becomes predictable. After about Episode 6 or 7 - whenever the "Korra kidnapped and taken to the woods was" - I could pretty much call it right down the card. You give me the set-up, I give you the results, and I was almost always right. In fact, when those window-washers with the power gloves attacked Tenzen at the start of the rebellion and he DID'T get knocked out and taken hostage, that threw me for a serious loop. It didn't last.

The Legend of Korra has everything I never wanted to see in a story. It's an endless parade of failure that started off dramatic, went into pathetic and then rolled over into fetish-creepy by the end. I was seriously getting the feeling someone was getting off on torturing the poor girl. Ew!

My description may be snarky, but it's not too far from the truth. Korra is given some minor victories here and there, usually against foes that don't matter or against her own attitude, but Amon - the big bad - never, ever, EVER fails at anything he attempts the entire season. Not a single thing. Whenever he engages in hand-to-hand combat, he always wins clean and never suffers so much as a hit. When he has plans, they always succeed. If they look like they're failing, that's just what he WANTS you to think, and he was playing the heroes all along. Whenever Korra gets involved, she either freezes in fear or is forced to run. And even when he loses, he hasn't really lost. He takes ONE hit that knocks him through a window and reveals his scam, but he's fine. Unhurt and pissed off, as a point of fact, but retreats without anyone being able to do anything to stop him. The only way he's finally defeated is by a person he trusts who's so emotionally broken that he commits suicide and kills them both in a fiery explosion.

Even Lord Nemesis doesn't have that kind of track record and his whole thing was that his losses were just diversions.

I very much enjoyed Korra, and I found the story to be inspirational.  Just as you said, she is given absolutely no quarter.  She's a seventeen year old kid.  What advantages does she have?  She was a child prodigy of sorts, given her mastery of the first three elements.  But as the story quickly explains, all that really does for her is give her an edge over a couple of thugs and the Lieutenant.  The plot was never designed, at least I think, to test her skills or intelligence.  Everything Amon threw at her was testing her determination and challenging what she knew about the world.  Only when she felt truly and fully defeated could she actually change and win.  The Avatar has the power to do anything they set their minds to, as evidenced by a twelve year old's ending of a war.  Korra's true enemy was herself, and I felt the first thirteen episodes captured that beautifully.

Again, I agree with the facts.  Korra never won, Amon was always a step ahead.  But I like how that was used, and how it was resolved.  I thought it was done with great precision.  What I don't like about the series is how little Bolin was fleshed out.  But I guess I can wait for more to see what happens.  Also, in case you are unaware, Korra was meant to be confined solely to the thirteen episodes that have aired.  It's got a total of 40ish more coming, not sure how it can stay as good as it was. 

[Victoria Victrix]

Also, getting captured: Once right at the start by the city police - tied up and brought in. Then again in her very first meeting with Chi-Blockers in an alley, just incapacitated. Then again in her dream, but I guess that doesn't count. Then by the big bad who strings her up, insults her and lets her go. Then again at the "bending championship" finals - tied up below the stage. Then again, in Sato's underground base - shocked, tied up, loaded into a truck. Then again by the bloodbender guy - tied up, tossed in a truck, taken to a shack in the woods, thrown in a cage. I think I'm forgetting one before the end, but right at the end several times. Once when she's hiding from the big bad like he's a frikkin' Slasher villain, then pulled out by the wrist and incapacitated, then once more when he takes her bending.

You sure they didn't channel James Schmitz for that series?  Seriously, Schmitz's heroines get tied up more than Penelope Pitstop.

[Tenzhi]

And what kills me about the big bad is throughout the entire series, he never fails at anything. Not a single time. It gets ridiculous after a while, to the point where the fat guy (Sokka's stand-in) had to comment about how "Every time we come up with a plan, he comes up with a better plan!" I mean, seriously, just how anachronistic future technologies can Sato invent? He invented the automobile, giant electorwhip robots, WW2 divebombers, invisible electric fences, portable shock gloves, underground superfactories, giant three-feet-thick walls of pure platinum impervious to Metalbenders, airships, regular ships, submarines, night vision goggles. Basically, every time the plot makes it look like the good guys have done something right, Sato pulls out the GM's trick card of having secretly invented exactly what it takes to destroy the heroes' advantage.

Pretty much like Slade in Teen Titans without all the filler episodes to distract you from it.  I like that kind of villain, but I did feel like his defeat was a rip-off.

[Samuel Tow]

Pretty much like Slade in Teen Titans without all the filler episodes to distract you from it.  I like that kind of villain, but I did feel like his defeat was a rip-off.

A lot like Slade, yes, but at least Slade was a manipulator and his plans were FOR Robin. It's been a while since I saw that series but I remember most of his plans being him farting around playing mind games and not actually achieving world domination. And yes, I do believe his defeat was kind of crap. And, to be honest, by Season 3, I was sick to death of the guy. There's only so much smug self-entitlement that I can take before I cry foul. He was a cool villain with a solid voice actor, but geez man! The Joker called - he wants his ham back.

And you do have a point about that kind of villain in general. A good story needs a good villain that feels like a threat, but it's a careful balancing act to pull off. If you don't make the villain menacing enough, he ends up a joke like Hector Con Carne. If you make the villain TOO menacing, he ends up a Villain Sue like Amon. If the villains' too weak, defeating him has no meaning. If the villain's too strong, then defeating him feels like cheating.

It's such a fiddly balancing act, I really believe only the best of writers can pull it off. But the thing is, this only happens if you make the story ABOUT the villain, which I frankly think is a mistake. A good story needs a good villain as much as it needs a good hero, and said good hero can be a very good damper on the fine balancing of the villain. The more of the story's conflict that you shift onto the hero, the less the villain has to carry the tone. That's why everyone remembers that one scene where Spider-Man has to lift something heavy to the point it keeps being reused over and over, and why "with great power come great responsibility" has endured for so long. When you give the hero his own story arc, he can carry much of the story and you end up with a clash of equals, in storytelling terms.

To my eyes, the best hero/villain stories are the ones that set both hero and villain on an adventure of their own, such that their paths cross inescapably into a climactic confrontation. Avatar: The Last Airbender does this expertly, both with Aang vs. Zuko, then Aang vs. Azula, then finally Aang vs. Ozai... Even if Mark Hamil's Ozai really isn't a "character." There are a number of "storyline crossovers" along the way with the various other non-title characters, and that's what the series is built on. And that's where the Legend of Korra fails completely. Despite carrying her name, the series really isn't "about" Korra. Or about the Avatar, for that matter. For much of the plot, Korra is basically carryo-on, being dragged through the plot by her hair, accomplishing nothing, achieving nothing and learning nothing. It's Amon's story through and through. You CAN tell a story that's all about the villain if you do it right, but it's VERY difficult, and the Legend of Korra tries so hard that it explodes all over the bedsheets and accomplishes worse than nothing.

I think you may have just clued me into a central source of the "fatalism" problem in modern day video game writing - it's so enamoured with the villains that it fails to give the heroes their half of the story to carry, and a villain-centric story is difficult to write when you put the player in the hero's role. And it doesn't have to be this way - look at Half-Life 2. Gordon Freeman is basically a silent protagonist with zero personality and no say over the plot, yet the game nevertheless tells its entire narrative around him. Bad guys exist - the G-Man, Breen, the Combine, etc. - but this is very clearly Freeman's story. And even THAT has suffered with Episodes 1 and 2 with the introduction of the "Advisors." All of a sudden we have these floating grubs that cause the otherwise tough Alyx to almost break down crying and eat Eli's brain, Starship Trooper's style, and then they dropped the ball and didn't make a sequel for coming on a decade.

I'm getting off track, but I think much of the problem lies in games' preoccupation with villains. They spend too much time inserting the game's villain as the source of all problems, then don't let the player solve them because we need to make the villain a menace. By the end, said villain is either a massive let-down (Bioshock, I'm looking at you!) or a Villain Sue, and it's all because they wrote themselves into a corner. A villain who's never wrong and never loses is a villain that YOU cannot write. I'm looking at you, game designers - YOU cannot write that kind of villain. Maybe someone somewhere can, but YOU can't. So figure out how to make your villain a real character, with his own ups and downs, his own wins and losses, his own moments of despair and moments of inspiration. Make the story as rough on the villain as it is on the hero. Make this a villain I can respect as much as I revile him. Make me want to defeat him not because he disgusts me, but because it's the right thing to do. Then you'll get me invested enough to both want to see him fall and not feel robbed out of closure at the same time.

Darrin Wade is a perfect example of a Villain Sue, actually, at least in the SSA1. Like Amon, everything he tries succeeds and he manages to win pretty much hands down, only for the game to basically do a 180 and go "Well, it was fun but we can't actually have him win. Go beat his ass." Through and through, it was his story, and all the Freedom Phalanx was there to do was serve as fall guys so we could demonstrate how awesome Wade is. And sure, the fight in space is cool and all, but as for closure? What closure? Rularuu beat Wade like we knew he would. What we beat was an Aspect of Rularuu. Wade lost before we ever got to him, there's no closure. And did the Phalanx learn anything? Of course not, because it wasn't their story. And the player character? Nope, not our story, either. It was Wade's story.

Maybe someone could have written that kind of story well, but Doc Aeon wasn't him. And that's not a dig against the guy - that kind of story is a bitch to write. What I hold against him is putting himself in a situation where he HAD to tell that kind of story. It speaks of inexperience, because once you've tried to write a story like this - and I have tried and I have failed - you learn pretty quickly to just not do that. If you have to have an unbeatable villain, then just don't use him as the story focus and tell the story of the other characters surviving in that kind of situation. Don't make it a fight between a Villain Sue and a Butt Monkey hero. There's no way that this will end up as anything other than fatalist, and unless you're VERY good at pulling off fatalist stories, you're going to fail.

Basically, gaming's current preoccupation of villain-centric writing is turning games fatalist.

[eabrace]

I don't know what Korra you were all watching but I don't remember her failing at everything she tried (other than airbending) or being captured constantly (other than that one time at the end).  You have to remember that most of her life she was secluded from the world so she had a bit of an ego problem and what follows is what normally happens when your ego gets splashed with the cold water of the real world, suddenly realizing that "your aren't all that" you made yourself out to be.

That was more what I took away from the first season.  The overall struggle Korra faced may have looked like it was against external forces, but almost everything was rooted in internal conflict with hubris being a central theme.  That and what seemed like a more than generous dose of teen angst.

Wait... what's this thread discussing again?

[TimtheEnchanter]

From Cracked - on movies.

Grrr! Roar! Scary! Grit! As we, as a movie-going nation, get older, it looks like we're mistaking too-cool cynicism and ironic detachment for maturity and sophistication. Everything -- everything -- is gritty now, even Hansel and goddamn Gretel, even Jack and the goddamn Beanstalk, even the Wizard of goddamn Oz. Everything.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-movies-they-dont-make-anymore-but-really-should/

[Samuel Tow]

More or less, yeah.

Maybe I'm reading too far into it, but I've developed a habit of taking offence whenever game designers or movie makers try to "guess" what we want. It's what pissed me off so much about the original Tomb Raider advertisement - it assumed that torture porn, basically, is what we want because that's more "mature" than sexual objectification, yo! And it just makes me feel insulted that someone really thought that that's the kind of stuff I want to see as entertainment.

Enter "Grrr! Roar! Scary! Grit!" It strikes me as movie and game makers guessing that what we want is to grow up and be mature and that this means we're no longer want to watch happy movies. It smacks of a teenager's view of maturity as expressed through the denouncement of childhood in general, and to me at least, that's not mature. "Dark" games and movies have always existed. If anything, the old DOS games were even more violent more commonly than the games of today. It's this feeling I get that gamers are somehow ashamed to be caught playing a game with a happy ending because that's not "serious" enough that I find... Belittling? I've never shied away from harsh story elements like suffering, desperation and the loss of innocence. Hell, it's what I use to add drama to my own stories. It's the reverse that really bugs me - the aversion to niceness.

Now, again, maybe that's just me reading too much into gaming trends, but it seems like these days, happy is out and gritty is in. And it's hurting the diversity of new releases.

[Vasarto]

I think its a dark age in gaming for nothing to do with dark stories.

Its because nothing good has come out in the last 5 years.

Compare Video games quallity, Difficulty and the people they cater video games to fifteen years ago to what they do today and you will see it.

5% of video games are made and catered to 100% to people who actually want a challenge
Roughly 15% to people who enjoy video games
the other 80% ?

People who cannot play video games like children or old people and people who have never played before.

Look at the trend of Infinite live games which are so abundent its sickening. ! The change the difficulty in the middle of a game session like in Elder Scrollls.

Call of Duty
Halo
God of War
Gears of War

Games like these not only exist but people claim they are the best things on the planet when they lack so much in every department of what makes a good video game its sickening....no wonder why so many squeeky voiced teenagers and Non-Gamers play it to make it so popular right?

STREAMLINING MECHANICS!


Diablo 3 much?
Take out character customization, Skill points, Skill Tree's, Limit down the skills you gain in the game but OVER 2/3 of what you could had before and opt in crappy runes to alter already existing skills. Remove the fact that YOUR WEAPON MATTERS....weapons do not matter in D3, Attack speed, Power etc...Why else does a Wizard pwn in d3 with a Giant axe larger then himself eh? Weapons do not matter for any character and never will for any class and its so sad.

SKYRIM! Take out character classes completely. Seriously? Name one reason other then race and gender you would want to make more then a single character on this game....oh wait...there are NONE!


Every Game is being dumbed down and streamlined and given things to open it to people who never played....bad thing? No....except...EVERYONE is doing it.
Every new game, Every new company, old series etc. Everyone is doing it to every game even old games that used to be very well known for something that someone who is under 18, not good at video games or never played should never even think of attempting to go near.

Fightning Games and every other genre has gotten so much easier to play too.

I played Mortal Kombat for years and only beat Kintaro once and got my ass handed to me by Shao Khan. I will never beat that game but I can beat every other MK game after it since.

...sad.

We Truly are in a Dark Ages of gaming.

[Tenzhi]

I agree that they have a tendency to go overboard in streamlining mechanics, but on the other hand I'd rather play an over-simplified game than an over-complicated game.  Optimally, there should be options that allow one some degree of customisation to suit one's own perfect middle-ground of complexity.

SKYRIM! Take out character classes completely. Seriously? Name one reason other then race and gender you would want to make more then a single character on this game....oh wait...there are NONE!

Character classes weren't really a big deal to me in Elder Scrolls - ultimately, they were just a label for someone who focused on a particular set of skills in what was a skill-based rather than class-based game.  The problem I had with Skyrim (other than glitchy dragons) is that in order to max out the skills I wanted I eventually had to start using skills I didn't want to use in order to advance and have the points to spend on the skills I wanted.  But I finished it and Oblivion, whereas Morrowind was a dull brown tedious mess full of infinitely aggro'd Cliff Racers - I swear, whenever I start a new game in the series, one of those things is still following me...  I can hear it.

[FatherXmas]

Vasarto sounds like that gaming is "serious business" and only professionals need apply.  It's entertainment.  It's meant to be enjoyed.  If a simpler framework means more people enjoy a particular game that's good for the developer (more sales = more income) and those players (they have fun).

Sorry if that means hundreds of hours of discovering and mastering the timings needed to pull off awesomely unstoppable combo moves in fighting games or layers of stats that'll make a dedicated PnP RPGer eyes glaze over are your forte but sadly for you that there are more of us than players like you and if a developer/studio wants to make more money from their efforts it's us and not you they will be designing for.