Author Topic: Marvel Heroes, I think I'll pass, thanks.  (Read 21587 times)

Lightslinger

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Re: Marvel Heroes beta: WHY
« Reply #80 on: April 29, 2013, 06:08:04 PM »
I think comparing it to CoH, CO, or DCUO is unfair really. This is basically the Marvel: Ultimate Alliance console games built from the ground up to be online.

I played a couple of those games over the years, had one on Gamecube and one on PS3 and they really are fun games. Even more fun with friends playing. Not really an "MMO" at all. So if you want a quick pick up game as your favorite Marvel hero teaming with other people, I'm sure it will work for that.

doc7924

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Re: Marvel Heroes beta: WHY
« Reply #81 on: April 29, 2013, 06:12:39 PM »
As much as I love Captain America and have almost every video game with him in it, the fun of all the super hero MMO's I have played so far - COH, CO and DCUO is making your OWN, ORIGINAL hero with costume, backstory (if you wanted), customized powers, etc.

While not saying the Marvel game is good or bad, I just think that sucks a lot of the fun out of right away just being one of the already established heroes.


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Re: Marvel Heroes beta: WHY
« Reply #82 on: April 29, 2013, 07:12:30 PM »
I've been enjoying this game a lot.  Spiderman in particular is a ton of fun to play as, with his high mobility and speed debuffs/corrosive webbing DoTs.

Great ARPG, took them long enough to make one that wasn't another boring fantasy setting.  I'm glad they stopped advertising it as an MMO a while back, since this isn't an MMO in any traditional sense- but if anyone here liked Diablo-style games or Marvel Ultimate Alliance, they'll enjoy this a lot.

The voice acting in particular is top-notch.
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Captain Electric

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Re: Marvel Heroes beta: WHY
« Reply #83 on: April 29, 2013, 08:31:55 PM »
I have two minds about this. Coming from City of Heroes, I completely sympathize with those of you who got into the beta and gave Marvel Heroes a try for a "second home".

But on the same coin, I can't altogether relate. I wouldn't ever ask why Torchlight or Din's Curse or Freedom Force can't be more like City of Heroes, and that is totally what these threads are doing--asking why an apple can't be an orange.

Long before I tried out CoH for the first time, I got my hands on a game called Fate, a fun dungeon crawler, one of those games I always used to go back to on a rainy day. I became a big fan of the developers, because they communicate with their fans a lot. That team went on to make another game based on Fate--which was Torchlight. It took (almost) everything that made Fate so much fun and added a bunch more too. Now of course there is Torchlight 2. I play these games for mindless fun, and I always go back to them, but I can't play them for weeks or months on end. Heck, I still play Ultima Online, one of the funnest dungeon crawlers in history as far as I'm concerned.

Marvel Heroes is a fun dungeon crawler with a super hero skin. It has a lot of fans on the dungeon crawler side, and those of us (like me) who are also comic book nerds are basically exploding with happiness over it. But, just like other super hero games I like to play, like Batman: Arkham X, The Amazing Spider-Man, Freedom Force, I don't see the point in asking how much they have in common with City of Heroes before I'll allow myself to enjoy them. There are a whole lot of dungeon crawlers I don't like also, but my dislike of them has nothing to do with CoH.

In fact, if you're looking for a CoH replacement...I think you're doing both yourself and the devs behind these fine games a great disservice. City of Heroes CANNOT be replaced. Masterpieces can't be. Stop looking, stop driving down that road, it is a dead end. For all the people who lament the passing of an irreplaceable game while searching for its replacement, I have but one question: what on Earth are you thinking?

Like our devs admitted on occasion, City of Heroes was born from a different era and it fell together, sometimes willfully and sometimes clumsily, almost like pieces from different puzzles; a freak accident, all those pieces becoming a masterful work of art despite all the stumbling in the dark that MMO studios did back when CoH was first created.

This is the first time I've posted in one of these threads, because they are never made for fans. The last thread was titled "Marvel Heroes, I think I'll pass, thanks." And this thread's title is equally condescending. So from the get-go I don't think these threads are being created for fair discussion, and as a fan of the game I haven't been inclined to voice my opinions at all. (I'm having an off-day today, I suppose.) Over in the Guild Wars 2 threads, posts were being deleted left and right for bashing the game, and yet where Marvel Heroes is concerned, we have two whole threads for just that very purpose. I had actually planned on making a more positive Marvel Heroes thread, but Aggelakis doesn't allow multiple threads on the same topic (I'm guessing this one slipped her radar, or the other one was sufficiently old). So, it's been off to the Marvel Heroes Hub or official beta forums with me. :(

TL;DR, I have been playing the Marvel Heroes beta for a long while now and I like it for what it is. I dropped cash on two founder's starter packs and a premium pack. Obviously I wouldn't like it if I tried to play it for what it isn't. And I don't even think it's a masterpiece for what it is. Only Din's Curse (with its Demon War expansion) deserves that title from me, an obscure indie title.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 08:42:48 PM by Captain Electric »

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Re: Marvel Heroes beta: WHY
« Reply #84 on: April 29, 2013, 08:37:32 PM »
If you enjoyed Ultimate Alliance (as I do), Marvel Heroes will disappoint you.  Ultimate Alliance allowed you to control your character and the camera, allowed your heroes to leap and fly.  This ... disgrace they have made is 11GB of garbage.  I was in the beta before I uninstalled -- it will be free to play, and I still felt overcharged.  The developers have straight out said they will not support WASD or controllers before launch, period.  As I understand it, the environments aren't fully rendered, so they will never be able to incorporate a panning camera.

So imagine Ultimate Alliance with mouse only controls, a fixed camera, and no block button.  (The last one hurt worse because I was playing freakin' Captain America!)

Captain Electric

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Re: Marvel Heroes beta: WHY
« Reply #85 on: April 29, 2013, 08:56:42 PM »
Well, the camera issues and mouse controls aren't going to bother everyone like they do you. Ultima Online, the Torchlight games, and lots of other popular top-down isometric games have had fixed cameras. In UO's case you couldn't even zoom in until the new client came out (and FYI, most people still prefer the old classic client anyway).

I know that more and more contemporary gamers are getting used to full camera control. But for many fans of isometric games, it's just another day in the genre.

I'd defend your right to an opinion just like mine. But I think when people throw words like "garbage" around, they're really just interested in seeing the world fill up with things that please them specifically and no one else. The game has fans.

dwturducken

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Re: Marvel Heroes beta: WHY
« Reply #86 on: April 29, 2013, 09:30:05 PM »
I understand where you're coming from, Cap'n, and I went into beta knowing that it wasn't a CoH replacement. I also went in knowing that I hadn't liked either of the first Diablo games. I have not and will not bother with the last, and I'm unlikely to try Torchlight or Torchlight 2.

I went in knowing that I was testing a game for bugs, and that is what I did. I did hope that the IP and storytelling would make up for the mechanics that I found annoying, because I still enjoy the late 90s D&D games in the style of Baldur's Gate and its sequels. I didn't really get into the forums, but I would play for a couple of hours each night (I was usually busy on the Saturdays) the servers were up, for the first few weeks, and I sent in bug reports when I ran into them. I'm a good little beta tester, dammit! :)

As for the game itself, nothing really caught fire for me. Some customization (aside from buying from a handful of established uniform sets) would make it a little more interesting, at first, but I just don't see even that making it a drastically better game. I should say that, with the exception of one Spider Man game for the PS2, I have hated every game I've played that was based on an established comic IP, until DCUO. I don't like DCUO, but it's at least playable.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Candie Firestar

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Re: Marvel Heroes beta: WHY
« Reply #87 on: April 29, 2013, 09:38:13 PM »
I got into the closed beta this weekend.  Knowing nothing about the game's UI, controls etc., and coming in only knowing it's about Marvel superheroes, it was a fun little game to play.  Yes, being one of many of the same hero breaks immersion, but I could just ignore that since I play solo most of the time anyway.  The graphics are nice.  I chose to play Storm.  I didn't find any other character unlocks in the time that I played which was about 3-4 hours.

I see they took a page out of DCUO's "cutscenes" where it is stills of comic book art moved around.  I scoffed at the cut-scene where Spidey has a magic tablet and The Hood teleports behind him and snatches it out of his hands and teleports away.  WTF?  Wouldn't his Spider-sense warn him?

I don't see the game having a longevity.  I think most people want to make their own heroes and choose their own powers. 

I tried the game, but I don't think I'll play it when it goes live.

Captain Electric

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Re: Marvel Heroes beta: WHY
« Reply #88 on: April 29, 2013, 11:14:34 PM »
Ha! Candie, I had the same exact reaction to that cut-scene. I read more Spidey than anything (although I stopped my subscription with #700 and am reading earlier story arcs I missed). This isn't at all about being biased though, because Spidey is just as likable for his weaknesses as his strengths. But his reaction time in a situation like that would definitely not be a weakness! The artist should have put that tablet in someone else's hands.

Speaking of art, I like the story panels, but even so, I made the rude mistake of asking in global, about the art in the first several panels, "So are these panels placeholder art for better stuff coming?" I was standing right next to the community manager Rockjaw when I said it (I didn't realize this at the time). Oops! (I really did feel bad.) The thing is, I guess I expected them to get someone like McNiven or, actually you know what, they should have scooped up Nakayama. Just Google those names. In Marvel Heroes they should have put their best foot forward in the art department, using artists who are tapped for big ticket story arcs and covers. Bear in mind I LIKE the game's comic panels. I realize this is a backhanded compliment I'm making. But they're trying to do BUSINESS and you can bet they desire this form of criticism. I feel like the game's comic panel art is from the bulk of the comics out there. It's just fine if you're doing the umpteenth story arc in the game or reading most issues of any Marvel comic. It's quickly drawn, it's not trying to wow you, it looks just fine. Just like not every episode of your favorite TV show wouldn't be fit for a DVD collection of greatest hits, not every comic book is fit for a $25 collectible edition. But, ya'know, I think the game shouldn't start with "just fine".

@dwturducken, I wish more people could be as objective as you in their feedback. I consider myself a lucky guy for getting into dungeon crawlers long ago. The first computer RPGs I ever played as a youngster were Ultima III: Exodus, the Temple of Apshai trilogy, Phantasie and the Adventure Construction Set (the latter being a big part of why I would get into CoH many years later, with Issue 14: Mission Architect--I've been big on UGC since 11 years old!). But I digress.

You set out to do something I would never have done--beta test within a genre that's not in my tastes. I likely would have warned you away from it--and I'm saying this about a game I really like. But I tip my hat...er mask, with lightning pointy things...to you for getting your comparisons right. In your post you compared this isometric dungeon crawler to other dungeon crawlers!

I feel bad (don't read that in the normal Internet condescending way, I mean I really feel bad) for those of you who never had entertainment like that grow on you, and who, after losing Paragon City, tried out Marvel Heroes with even the vaguest of hopes.

The genre is super-specific. It's actually a popular niche (but still, it's a niche). Those of you who don't think it'll last very long will of course be incorrect. Anyone who has followed the genre for years could predict it'll meet its publisher's expectations, or at least not fall catastrophically below them. It's just that those expectations aren't as big as you're probably imagining.

And really, most MMOs that do fall that far tend to get propped up long enough to see if some patches can improve the outlook and investment. Gazillion doesn't have such a huge stable that they're going to pull an NCSoft/Tabula Rasa. They only have one other big popular MMO and it's geared for kids.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 11:26:06 PM by Captain Electric »

Omega Force 1990

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Re: Marvel Heroes beta: WHY
« Reply #89 on: April 30, 2013, 12:13:49 AM »
But I think when people throw words like "garbage" around, they're really just interested in seeing the world fill up with things that please them specifically and no one else. The game has fans.
Yes, and I was one of them until I tried to play it.  I think that's why I'm so mad about it -- and make no mistake, my rage has been building under the NDA -- action RPGs are my favorite genre.  Right now I have Dark Alliance 1 and 2, Hunter the Reckoning Wayward, Justice League Heroes, Marvel Ultimate Alliance, and X-Men Legends 2 on my shelf.  I don't think I've ever played a game that didn't give you the option of using the keyboard to move.  Maybe Shadows of Amn, but that didn't claim to be an action game.

houtex

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Re: Marvel Heroes beta: WHY
« Reply #90 on: April 30, 2013, 01:57:23 AM »
I've been enjoying this game a lot.  Spiderman in particular is a ton of fun to play as, with his high mobility and speed debuffs/corrosive webbing DoTs.

Wait, what?  Since when did Spidey's webbing be corrosive?!

I know it's their baby, but seriously.  That's... wrong, peeps.  Wrong indeed.

/Be like saying Cyclops has a healing eyebeam or something.

DarkCurrent

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Re: Marvel Heroes beta: WHY
« Reply #91 on: April 30, 2013, 02:40:07 AM »
Wait, what?  Since when did Spidey's webbing be corrosive?!

I know it's their baby, but seriously.  That's... wrong, peeps.  Wrong indeed.

/Be like saying Cyclops has a healing eyebeam or something.

Well TF Genosha couldn't launch without someone 'rockin da aura'.

Illusionss

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Re: Marvel Heroes beta: WHY
« Reply #92 on: April 30, 2013, 04:39:57 PM »
Quote
I have two minds about this. Coming from City of Heroes, I completely sympathize with those of you who got into the beta and gave Marvel Heroes a try for a "second home".

But on the same coin, I can't altogether relate. I wouldn't ever ask why Torchlight or Din's Curse or Freedom Force can't be more like City of Heroes, and that is totally what these threads are doing--asking why an apple can't be an orange.

The comparison is being made here because Marvel Heroes and CoX are both games ostensibly involving superheroes.

Allow me to say in advance that these further comments may come off as snippy, although they are not really meant personally. I do apologize for that in advance.

Quote
This is the first time I've posted in one of these threads, because they are never made for fans. The last thread was titled "Marvel Heroes, I think I'll pass, thanks." And this thread's title is equally condescending.

Sorry. Got to call 'em like I see 'em.

We are all persons experienced with these concepts in this genre. We know what differentiates a good MMO from a bad one. Why can no one else so far make a decent superhero game? I think exploring "why not"  is a legitimate question.

I would really, really like for the Plan Z projects to avoid these pitfalls. Lets delienate the pitfalls so that we can avoid them, I say.

Quote
I feel bad (don't read that in the normal Internet condescending way, I mean I really feel bad) for those of you who never had entertainment like that grow on you, and who, after losing Paragon City, tried out Marvel Heroes with even the vaguest of hopes.

I know hope is stupid, but also Hope Springs Eternal. I am not looking for a clone of CoX. All I want is something playable, in a sci-fi setting, that allows me to cusomize my own characters. This does not seem like a high bar, but not unlike Jon Snow, I know nothing. 

Quote
The genre is super-specific. It's actually a popular niche (but still, it's a niche). Those of you who don't think it'll last very long will of course be incorrect.

Why would it last long? What is there to hold people over a period of years?

In CoX you had those same mission arcs and TFs, true, but you ran through them with a bunch of different characters and you were slowly honing YOUR CREATION through time and effort, to make him or her what you wanted them to be. It was all about the journey.

Here you are out the gate with: the Scarlet Witch. [or whoever] The Scarlet Witch is not yours, you did not think her up. You did not make her costume. There's 50 more of her at every spawn-point. If you are me, you cant even mousewheel close to her to get a good look at her. How am i supposed to form an emotional connection to that?

I admittedly say this as someone who FOR YEARS, had a Carnage clone in CoV. He had a derivative name but otherwise looked exactly like him. [So derivative, that he was never generic'd] He was a Claws/regen Stalker and let me tell you, there was very little he feared as far as bosses. I really wished there was a badge-title "Boss killer" because I would have went out of my way to get it for him. He was IOed out and slotted up through Hybrid. He BEGAN as someone else's idea, but over time....? He became MY idea. He got different costumes and he did his own stuff. I came to love him a lot. He was one of my top five characters and I miss him so bad I can hardly stand it.

We shall see if Marvel's distant click-to-move can inspire similar loyalty, which is possible but IMO far from a given: these are not equivalent games.

Aggelakis

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Re: Marvel Heroes beta: WHY
« Reply #93 on: April 30, 2013, 06:08:35 PM »
This is the first time I've posted in one of these threads, because they are never made for fans. The last thread was titled "Marvel Heroes, I think I'll pass, thanks." And this thread's title is equally condescending. So from the get-go I don't think these threads are being created for fair discussion, and as a fan of the game I haven't been inclined to voice my opinions at all. (I'm having an off-day today, I suppose.) Over in the Guild Wars 2 threads, posts were being deleted left and right for bashing the game, and yet where Marvel Heroes is concerned, we have two whole threads for just that very purpose. I had actually planned on making a more positive Marvel Heroes thread, but Aggelakis doesn't allow multiple threads on the same topic (I'm guessing this one slipped her radar, or the other one was sufficiently old). So, it's been off to the Marvel Heroes Hub or official beta forums with me. :(
I have been busy buying a house (or in reality, repeatedly NOT buying a house *depressed*) so I don't get to be around as often as I was before. I'm merging these now. You can feel free to make a positive Marvel Heroes thread and I'll beat people with sticks if they poop in your cheerios. :)
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Illusionss

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Re: Marvel Heroes, I think I'll pass, thanks.
« Reply #94 on: April 30, 2013, 07:17:07 PM »
[null]
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 08:14:31 PM by Illusionss »

dwturducken

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Re: Marvel Heroes, I think I'll pass, thanks.
« Reply #95 on: May 01, 2013, 01:32:49 AM »
Now, I feel like I have to make a positive thread about MH, just to see if it gets any traction. :)
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Captain Electric

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Re: Marvel Heroes, I think I'll pass, thanks.
« Reply #96 on: May 01, 2013, 09:50:48 AM »
Thank you for the invitation to start a more positive thread, Aggelakis. At this point, though, we may as well put off doing that until June 4th (next month), or whenever the NDA lifts before then.  As for traction, well, not many threads here enjoy traction. Most fans of games will be off posting on those games' forums (or at the Marvel Heroes Hub in this case).

I don't expect a "positive" thread to gain as much traction as this one has, because I don't think the genre has mass appeal. But it would be nice for me to be able to talk about the game with a couple of other fans rather than just defend its worth to me. I'm sure you all can understand that desire. Because otherwise, you know, whatever people don't like, they tend to actively dislike, instead of just having no comment. These discussions never quite make sense to me at the end of the day anyway, because isn't this all subjective? And yet we talk about it like it's objective.

I have no illusions about what most City of Heroes fans are looking for--customization, customization, and more customization. And I'm right alongside you. I think the disconnect here is that I don't believe every super hero game that comes out is required to attempt to be our glass slipper. And asking Marvel Heroes to be that game is no more relevant than asking Terraria. It's a video game where you play established comic book super heroes. Those types of games will always have fans. And let me say also that I wouldn't want Gazillion/Secret Identity Studios making the game that would be an agreeable second home for us. I don't think that's what they're about. You want the right studio for the right job.

Illusionss, when you talk about staying power, the ability of a game to pull you in and keep you immersed, you're not talking about a game like Marvel Heroes. They know that. That's what I meant when I said, "It's just that those expectations aren't as big as you're probably imagining." I'm referring specifically to your quote, "Why would it last long? What is there to hold people over a period of years?" Well I love these types of games but they're not supposed to hold your undivided attention for years on end. Would you get immersed in some arcade game for years on end? I don't mean to sound personal and I know you don't either, but I think you're imagining a much larger burden for this game than is even remotely realistic. I am almost certain they aren't expecting super high retention rates. I can't say much without breaking my NDA (if I didn't already above), but the business model seems geared for new and repeat customers more so than "sticky" customers. Which is fine--that's exactly how people play these games! ;D

You come in, make a purchase or three, and play for a while. It's F2P from the start and there's no reward or mechanic for "investing" like you would with a subscription or hybrid model. They've said that publicly.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 09:58:34 AM by Captain Electric »

dwturducken

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I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."