MMORPG.COM / MMOFTW - the top stories of 2012

[therain93]

http://www.mmorpg.com/showVideo.cfm/videoId/2867

So, Bill Murphy lists the closure of City of Heroes as the #5 top story of 2012, which is good.....and then at 1:15 he says it's all about the profits and that City of Heroes could no longer turn one....not so good.

[Lily Barclay]

http://www.mmorpg.com/showVideo.cfm/videoId/2867

So, Bill Murphy lists the closure of City of Heroes as the #5 top story of 2012, which is good.....and then at 1:15 he says it's all about the profits and that City of Heroes could no longer turn one....not so good.

Can you comment? Correct it politely and link the Korea times article. They used independent analysts that confirmed profitability.

[Quinch]

I added my two bits in the comments.

[Starsman]

Saw it. Replied it. Cant believe that the profit BS is being perpetuated when NCSoft themselves don't dare say it (because, well, you know, it would be a lie.)

[therain93]

Can you comment? Correct it politely and link the Korea times article. They used independent analysts that confirmed profitability.

The 4 comments are all polite corrections about the status of City of Heroes' profitability. ( ' :

[Lily Barclay]

The 4 comments are all polite corrections about the status of City of Heroes' profitability. ( ' :

Yep. Just saw it on my twitter feed. 

[Madadh]

Just took a peek myself.  Not a bad YiR, but agreed, the comment that hints that CoH wasn't profitable was somewhat...  Ehrm..  Well..  Glad to see several folks retorted...

But, after reading further through the comments there.....

WTH did someone do to Toast?  Not sure if Toast there is the Toast I know, but, man, he/she/they sound seriously hacked off at Titan, and at even the theoretical idea of a CoH return...  I am not sure if it's the same person I recall, tho, but the comment does seem to indicate that they were both in game, and in forum.  I'm had many a heated argument with other CoHers on the forums, often over an near pointless matter of build theory, but never got bitter enough to bash the entire forum community.  In fact, if you made me take a breath, I'd always admit, that the forum community, while a bit more passionate than the average CoHer, was every bit as courteous and polite.

Makes me wonder of a Pocket D cat-girl sprayed his apartment or suit, or something...

[NoName]

The last comment on these forums was he was upset at people doing the emulator route and was railing against that.

I don't know the guy I just remember he was saying how he was giving up was upset that people weren't paying attention to his charity posts.

For someone who "let go" going on a different forum and bashing this one seems out of sorts but like was said above, maybe there was a personal attack involved or what not.

btw maybe I'm out of touch but why do people spell out every word and then say "tho", was there an update I missed? Have I crossed over to codger territory now?

[Absolute]

but unfortunately you have a few (approx 100) people over at Titan

This made me Lol

[houtex]

There are always pi**y b****es.  Toast is one of them.  Too bad there's no /gignore available there.

And no, NoName, you haven't crossed over... people are just seriously lazy and love to typ n txt mode.  I mn srsly, is it so hrd 2 typ tngs? I tnk its a twtr thng, nly so mny chrs.

/Ugh, that's harder than typing normally by a LOT. :p

[Illusionss]

Just took a peek myself.  Not a bad YiR, but agreed, the comment that hints that CoH wasn't profitable was somewhat...  Ehrm..  Well..  Glad to see several folks retorted...

But, after reading further through the comments there.....

WTH did someone do to Toast?  Not sure if Toast there is the Toast I know, but, man, he/she/they sound seriously hacked off at Titan, and at even the theoretical idea of a CoH return...  I am not sure if it's the same person I recall, tho, but the comment does seem to indicate that they were both in game, and in forum.  I'm had many a heated argument with other CoHers on the forums, often over an near pointless matter of build theory, but never got bitter enough to bash the entire forum community.  In fact, if you made me take a breath, I'd always admit, that the forum community, while a bit more passionate than the average CoHer, was every bit as courteous and polite.

Makes me wonder of a Pocket D cat-girl sprayed his apartment or suit, or something...

As I recall he was making a serious nuisance of himself over on the official forums, pre-shutdown.

I often wonder about the real motivations of people who continue to try and interact with those they claim to despise. I think he has problems going on that have nothing to do with CoX, that's just a hunch but its.... my strong hunch. It seemed to SERIOUSLY upset him that not only were others upset by the closure, but that they were going to try and do something about it. It was like he really wanted to single-handedly stop such efforts.

Well, I hate it for him. I'd suggest moving on, rather than doing this sort of thing - but I'm pretty pragmatic anyways.

[Hotaru]

The bit about COH not being profitable is believed by people because that would've made sense. Two weeks ago I talked to a guy who used to work for NCsoft Japan and is now working on a different MMO for another company. He said the same thing: that the closure would be due to it not running in the black. When I corrected him, he said that was really messed up, then.

[Ironwolf]

There is a certain type of person who once something seems to be going badly they not only give up they go whole hog lemming.

They want to save you from any positive action as it will only delay your going lemming as well and will do you some sort of permanent harm. Don't work to save the game - don't falsely raise anyone's hopes as that could stop them from going lemming as well. I mean in a world where we are so full of immorality, dishonor and hate do not attempt to comfort a person or give them a reason to wake up with a smile and looking forward to life.

These people are to be despised among all others for they are the buzzards on the corpse wagon picking the bones of the dead. We are heroes and by god - It's not only what we DO - It's who we ARE.

[Captain Electric]

At some point, everyone started migrating over here to these forums. Which was good. There was a thread that Tony started to invite and direct the community over here, and I bumped that thread every single day when people stopped chatting in it. However, I stuck to the official forums along with several others till the end, basically to field misinformation and fight the green tide of Supatrolls. So, I saw the evolution of IBurntTheToast's attitude toward everything, from beginning to end.

BurntToast was a staunch supporter of the Titan Network and the SaveCoH movement in the beginning. In some ways, he was an even stauncher ally of the SaveCoH movement than most SaveCoHers in the beginning. When everyone around the Titan Network insisted on walking on egg shells around NCSoft--largely owing to the cultural divide and possible misinterpretations--IBurntTheToast was the first to point out that South Koreans are polar opposites of their more oppressed neighbors for a reason: citizens there have been willing to march for everything from democratic reform to corporate reform, to force their government and businesses to listen up and do the right thing. He was the first to defend me when I insisted that multinational corporations aren't designed to have "hearts" that you can appeal to with personal stories; they only have PR departments that can be alarmed by significant amounts of bad press. I'd like to add that at this time and the time leading up to it, he was a friendly forum personality for the most part.

BurntToast is a South Korean-American. His parents marched for democratic reforms in South Korea.

His attitude toward the Titan Network changed fairly quickly when a kind of campaign was mobilized around the ideals of the Korean concepts of kibun and nunchi. This is an area where I wasn't on anyone's side. In difficult times, it's tempting to try anything and everything, but during that particular moment in SaveCOH's history, some people discussed scenarios, generated meme images, and generally approached a threshold beyond which they would have become worse human beings than those who fired Paragon Studios without notice and shut down our game world.

BurntToast's belief is that we didn't just approach that threshold, but that we--as in all of us, collectively and by association--rushed over the edge and revealed ourselves to be racist monsters at worst, moral-deprived opportunists at best. But I know better. I know some of the people here better, though I definitely will not defend everyone. And I know myself better. I disagree with him, and in many ways I think it was he who flung himself over the edge, motivated by all of the negative experiences that a South Korean-American undoubtedly has had to deal with growing up in the United States. I sympathize with him, but that does not mean I think he is right. I think he is very, very mistaken and misguided.

Some who participated in that campaign were motivated by the kindest intentions--trying to reach out to another culture by learning and using their own tools. It was marred by those who were motivated purely by racism, which I know some were, based on comments I've received from some of you in private; and some who had the audacity to suspect that I would support their intolerance because I'm a white male.

No one ever apologized to BurntToast. And BurntToast will presumably never apologize for labeling many good and decent folks monsters by association. I do think he considers himself an active enemy of the SaveCoH campaign, and that, given the opportunity, he would sabotage or throw a wrench in any efforts underway, whether that's Plan Z, SEGS, or Hail Mary.

[TimtheEnchanter]

Either

A. NCsoft paid these guys off or
B. They were way too willing to assume that NCsoft "tried everything"
C. They're afraid of getting sued for saying anything that doesn't make NCsoft look like a saint

[Victoria Victrix]

Either

A. NCsoft paid these guys off or
B. They were way too willing to assume that NCsoft "tried everything"
C. They're afraid of getting sued for saying anything that doesn't make NCsoft look like a saint

D.  They are lazy non-journalists and are perfectly willing to take an easy answer as opposed to one they have to research.

[Captain Electric]

D.  They are lazy non-journalists and are perfectly willing to take an easy answer as opposed to one they have to research.

This is more often the case.

[TimtheEnchanter]

I thought the news was supposed to maximize intrigue and scandal... what the heck happened? Don't these people care anymore about giving their viewers anxiety attacks by making reality appear infinitely grim and dark?

[Captain Electric]

You mean like this?

*Captain-Electric sighs wistfully and longs for the good old days...*

[dwturducken]

In my observations, the farther you get from print news, the less actual journalism you will find.

That's kind of interesting about Toast. I mean, it's terrible, and I feel terrible, even though I was one of the many trying to keep us on the non-racist side of that line, but the back story does put things into perspective. I feel pretty terrible about it, now, to be honest.

[dwturducken]

You mean like this?

*Captain-Electric sighs wistfully and longs for the good old days...*

Yipe!  Jack-in-Irons in Founders!?

[TimtheEnchanter]

That's kind of interesting about Toast. I mean, it's terrible, and I feel terrible, even though I was one of the many trying to keep us on the non-racist side of that line, but the back story does put things into perspective. I feel pretty terrible about it, now, to be honest.

I got to talk to Toast in PM on the official forums near the end, after a really big overnight hellstorm that erupted and only died down when BP and TR showed up to lighten the mood. I wish there had been a grievance statement before leaving Titan, because it might've helped get people back in line. Toast tried to post in that thread about it, but it got largely ignored.

The jist of it is, the concept of Kibun that we got from online sources, was waaaaay off target, and much more subjective than it appeared. I compared it to trying to do Karate after just reading a book about it. It's far more subjective and probably would've just made us all look foolish if the idea had been taken further. And while we thought it was implying that we had been dishonored by NCsoft's actions, really all it was saying was NCsoft is a bunch of honor-less pigs. And that certainly wouldn't get us anywhere.

Kibun is also probably just as irrelevant to corporations there, as religious morality is to businesses in the West. So really all it was doing was ruffling the feathers of the wrong people. Apparently Toast isn't the only one who quit Titan over racially-charged overtones. There have also been some jokes flying around that looked pretty nasty when taken out of context.

[Captain Electric]

What Toast is misguided about is the kind of organization that Titan represents: it doesn't. Tony and others have reminded us of this many times, during the time that they've been gracious enough to host all of us within their forums.

The SaveCoH effort has been made up of many different efforts, some of them more tightly organized and some of them more loosely organized. By fans of City of Heroes. This is no different than if I had labeled all City of Heroes players on the forums racists, because I discovered racists on the forums--or perhaps more analogously, some folks who weren't racist at all, but just some people who were observably culturally naive but otherwise completely well-meaning. I also believe that BurntToast is aware that there are significantly more than 100 people who have participated and are participating in the SaveCOH efforts. So while I sympathize with some of the problems I'm certain he's had with racism during his lifetime, I also see that he has made a very nasty claim about thousands of fans of City of Heroes. Decent people, including folks who have stood up against racism and don't deserve this behavior to be leveled in their direction.

Don't be fooled. Specifically, don't be fooled by BurntToast. This isn't about an entire organization doing something wrong; it's about specific people. They ought to know who they are, and they ought to feel ashamed, but I'm afraid that some of them probably don't. If you weren't one of them, then you don't have anything to feel terrible about.

[Burnt Toast]

Tim and Captain Electric - Thank You for stating what you stated.


A history of my involvement in Coh/SaveCoH/Titan:


Prior to the announcement I like many others used Titan services for MIDs and the Wiki. When the announcement happened I came to the forums to see what was what. It was through these forums that I became involved in the SaveCoH movement: Rally, Zwillion Hero March, ExtraLife etc. It was because of SaveCoH that I made a twitter account and began tweeting everything SaveCoH I could.


Fast Forward to October 2012. I was deeply involved on these forums as well as the main forums for two reasons: 1. Trying to raise money for ExtraLife (It is a great cause and I was so happy that myself and a friend contributed to the $9,500+ raised.) 2. I believed in Titan/SaveCoH and wanted to help bring back the game I love(d) for over 7 years (3 accounts subbed for 7 years 9 months; except for a 2 month break after Issue 7).


While I was in the middle of pushing ExtraLife a topic came on these boards of doing a/some kibuns to NCSoft. It is no secret that I am  a Korean American (the issue came up in September when someone made a racist comment regarding Koreans). I sent a few kindly worded PMs to people asking them not to go forth with the kibun...and was basically ignored. I was THIS close to abandoning ExtraLife because I did not want to be affiliated with a group that would do something which I, as a Korean, consider to be extremely racist and demeaning. I didn't though...because I believed in what we were doing for ExtraLife and wanted to make as much of a difference for the families and patients helped by ExtraLife/Children's Miracle Network.


I quietly tried talking people out of the kibun by speaking with a few people I "knew" here at Titan, but was basically told "it's not racist." I always found that insulting..to tell a Korean that using Korean culture against Koreans...isn't racist. Shortly thereafter I found out that certain key people at Titan were/are working on an emu. So now I am involved with a group who has some serious racist motives and who are also condoning something that if I were involved with...I could lose my job. At this point the choice was very simple...leave Titan - and I did. I stopped participating in the forums, I deleted my twitter account, etc.


So then all I had were the official forums...which I have always been a poster on (on one account or another). I continued to post on the official forums and noticed a huge trend - anyone not WITH Titan was against them. People who did not believe every "fact" or every "someone told me to relay this" statement were now tr0lls, NCSoft fanbois, or even better NCSoft employees. I have been called many things and the name calling didn't actually phase me...it made me giggle. What bothered me was some of the misinformation that was coming from supposed Titan higher ups.


Anyways my melting point with Titan and some of it's members came the night Tim referenced. There was another heated debate on the official forums and a person who claimed to be a Titan higher up at the time, who knew I was Korean, and who knew my reasons why I was against the kibun of NCSoft came on...and put my name in red...as a means of kibuning... ME! I get that as Non-Koreans most people don't understand the significance of a kibun...nor the true venomous nature of them...and while I should have just ignored them...I went after them in a not so appropriate way (Not inappropriate enough to be modded I might add).


So while I do not participate in these forums by posting...I do look at them every now and then to see what is going on. For the record I LOVED CoH. It was the ONLY MMO I played more than a week. I recently told a friend who has been trying to get me to join them in ANY MMO "I am not an MMOer...I was a CoHer." I have tried DCUO, CO, GW2, TSW, SWTOR, etc etc...none of which I have played more than 2 settings because...they are not fun to me. Unlike a lot of the people who I see who came and left CoH over the years...I was a truly devoted fan. I had 3 accounts from March 2005 up until the very end - all of them VIP/subbed except for 2 months after Issue 7 (I moved and needed a new computer). So no...I am not anti-CoH. No I am not anti-NCSoft. No I cannot stand side by side with Titan in any of their attempts at Hail Mary's or Plan Z's because personally some of the key players involved in these things have (and continue to) disgust me with their anti-Korean rhetoric and "plans."


Also a HUGE pet peeve of mine...since I am laying it out there - when I see someone call NCSoft NCSoftcore, NCSucks, etc etc...it doesn't come across as cute or funny; but rather childish. Same goes when people reference Blade & Soul and think calling it any pseudo pornographic name....tacky..not clever; especially considering CoH had just as many "risque" toons running around the streets of Paragon.


So in closing...it's fine if you don't agree with me. I will continue to read stories on the web as they pop up and state facts as I know them to be instead of hearsay or speculation. I'm not looking for an apology for the numerous people who offended me because of my ethnicity and culture; because frankly I wouldn't believe them


I truly do hope one day CoH comes back, but I cannot be a part of the process for reasons stated above.






___________________
Oh and CE regarding your post (It was posted as I was typing mine and I saw it when I hit preview)....Titan forums have not attracted more than 75 people on an average day since December 1 (The night CoH closed down when 300+ people were here). There are not THOUSANDS of people working on either Plan Z and there are not THOUSANDS of people active here. Many people have simply moved on....especially after no results came out of the Unity Rally. When I stated 100.. I was being generous as on any given day these forums are lucky to attract 60 - 70 unique visitors a day. This is the type of stuff I comment on in web articles... SaveCoH, Plan Zs, etc are not HUGE things with a HUGE community...it saddens me more people are not involved, but I also know there are a plethora of reasons why:
Lack of organization
Perceived racism
Lack of faith in Titan
Sometimes Titan can come across as being a rainbows only place; where dissent is met with venomous posts.
People have moved on to other games
Real Life
Etc Etc


So while I do applaud; those who have not personally offended me, I also feel it important to interject reality and honesty into comments... Save CoH is a small group of people trying to do whatever they can to bring back their game...not thousands and not even hundreds of participants.

[corvus1970]

Toast,

You have taken a rather ugly molehill and earth-moved it into a mountain. You have taken a small group of people and used them as an excuse to rage and hate and broad-brush an entire community, and you are becoming like unto that which you despise. You are becoming increasingly obsessive, increasingly hateful, and increasingly petty, and it speaks ill of you. Furthermore, it taints and colors the perception of you, and soon nobody will recall the positive contributions you once made.

But hey, perhaps you don't care about that today, and perhaps you never will. But I bet you that you can certainly find better uses of your time, rather than continuing to allow a few select folks to rent an undue amount of space in your head.

Do yourself a favor and let. it. GO.

[Captain Electric]

Toast, I sincerely apologize for the facts I got wrong in my two posts above--including the idea that you're motivated toward sabotage. I actually do believe that you'll believe me when I apologize for that. I also remember very well all of the posts you made in defense of saving City of Heroes and trying to change NCSoft's mind. I was there, I saw how hard you tried, I was listening. And thank you. You tried very hard to help. Your efforts alongside us at that time do not deserve to go forgotten.

However--and I'm sure you knew a 'however' was coming--I think I'm right about some things. A lot of the people around here didn't participate in the kibun research because they were too busy writing other kinds of letters, or working on Plan Z and other things; or because they specifically did not think it was right (and I know that a few people managed to get through all of that time without even realizing it was a thing). Most of us here are really great people, with big hearts and not a bit of racism, sexism, or any ism that deserves contempt. While you're out there spreading facts, I hope I can convince you, here, now, to spread all the facts equally. Including the good ones.

I personally believe that there are some people here who should apologize to you, whether you'll believe them or not. Because it's the right thing to do. In most cases, I don't think it's because they were consciously racist in motive; but when good people goof, they still say "sorry".

But you've gone overboard in places (upon re-reading my post for errors, I honestly think this is a massive understatement). I think you owe some people here the City of Heroes community, collectively, an apology too.

Those who know me, know that I'm an optimist. I don't expect either side to apologize.

[corvus1970]

However--and I'm sure you knew a 'however' was coming--I think I'm right about some things. A lot of the people around here didn't participate in the kibun research because they were too busy writing other kinds of letters, or working on Plan Z and other things

Indeed. I came into this effort rather late, and saw none of that Kibun research stuff. I saw some of its aftermath to be sure, but I wasn't actually around until Toast had already started to hate on Titan, and had become a tsunami of negativity on the official forums.

[dwturducken]

Toast,

You have taken a rather ugly molehill and earth-moved it into a mountain. You have taken a small group of people and used them as an excuse to rage and hate and broad-brush an entire community, and you are becoming like unto that which you despise. You are becoming increasingly obsessive, increasingly hateful, and increasingly petty, and it speaks ill of you. Furthermore, it taints and colors the perception of you, and soon nobody will recall the positive contributions you once made.

But hey, perhaps you don't care about that today, and perhaps you never will. But I bet you that you can certainly find better uses of your time, rather than continuing to allow a few select folks to rent an undue amount of space in your head.

Do yourself a favor and let. it. GO.

That's a bit excessive and kind of what he was talking about. I can see where he has points, and I can see where they are off. I, for one, thought the kibun idea was a good one that went horribly wrong, but that's coming from the perspective of a white male American (former) serviceman who struggled  to not be what people expected of any of those things while I was visiting other countries, particularly Asian countries, including Japan and South Korea. The first thing I always found out how to do was correctly say "please" and "thank you" for as many situations as I could retain. I still, surprisingly, can remember quite a bit of it, though none of the actual Korean words.

Yes, the whole kibun thread made me very uncomfortable. I do recall you asking for consideration. I stopped following it when it became clear that nothing short of a redname was going to rein it in, but there wasn't anything overtly reportable at that point.

One thing that bears pointing out, though. Acknowledging and using cultural differences is not inherently racist. I will grant that there is a fine line, and we do cross it, but there are things that just are different. Be very careful which vending machine you put money in when visiting Tokyo, for instance. The beef that we have with NCSoft WRT Blade and Soul is that the majority of games that are aimed at a western market do not implement "jiggle physics" nearly as prominently as we are seeing in the promo videos for that game. South Korean gaming culture is a complex and nuanced thing, far moreso than nearly any other country/region. What I actually found more offensive about the whole "Bits and Tits" movement was the idea of using it deliberately to appeal to the worst of American society, the Westboro Baptist Church, if you will.

Also, any active reverse engineering is being done in full respect for the pertinent laws. The thread about the PMs for an emu is with tongue pretty firmly planted in cheek, though it wasn't so much like that at first.

[Burnt Toast]

This will be my only response to this thread. I figure maybe if I reply it will give some insight into things a little more.


You have NO idea what a kibun is, but I am going to educate you on why it is not an "ugly molehill." To put it into Non-Korean terms so that you understand the significant impact:


Imagine you are being held down by two people...spitting in your face calling you every name in the book. (Let that sink in for a second). Now while these two people are holding you down spitting in your face...they bring your mother into the room...and start hitting her...and telling her that she is getting this because YOU are a coward. THAT is the impact of a kibun. It is the most demeaning thing you can do to a Korean...and that shame; shames you AND your family....because YOU are a coward. It is not calling someone's Mom a bad name...or even calling someone a coward...it IS the most disgusting thing you can do to a Korean - many who have committed suicide in order to escape the shame or the backlash from their families. It is not a mole hill..it is a mountain. I explained this to SEVERAL people here and was told basically "We will do what we have to do to make NCSoft hear us." That is WRONG and disgusting.


I am not judging ALL of Titan, but I also cannot be involved in any projects because these people who did this...and even the person who kibuned me...are leaders in every past and present project.  Now tell me..could you work with them? Really? I could be a jerk (because trust me I get called that a lot by many Titans) and state their names, but they know who they are and I hope one day they feel ashamed for their actions in general and towards me.




FYI: Don't tell me to "let it go" when you have no idea what "it" is. When you can fully understand the shame and vile-nous of a kibun - come talk to me. My father was forced to leave Korea due to his political actions....because he "shamed" his family by protesting for equality. My mother was beaten by her friends because of her actions...and when she was battered...my father was told "Take your prize and go." THAT is the result of a kibun. I have never seen or spoken to my grandparents or any of my relatives since we left...because they are not allowed to speak to us....so please don't tell me or any other person involved in a kibun - to let it go.


And FYI I am not obsessed with Titan/SaveCoH. I come and read the topics to see what's going on. I haven't posted here in over 2 months. I post in articles online when I see blatant misinformation regarding CoH/SaveCoH. On average Titan/CoH/SaveCoH take up about 2 minutes of my day (except for today when I saw people talking about me specifically. )

Toast,

You have taken a rather ugly molehill and earth-moved it into a mountain. You have taken a small group of people and used them as an excuse to rage and hate and broad-brush an entire community, and you are becoming like unto that which you despise. You are becoming increasingly obsessive, increasingly hateful, and increasingly petty, and it speaks ill of you. Furthermore, it taints and colors the perception of you, and soon nobody will recall the positive contributions you once made.

But hey, perhaps you don't care about that today, and perhaps you never will. But I bet you that you can certainly find better uses of your time, rather than continuing to allow a few select folks to rent an undue amount of space in your head.

Do yourself a favor and let. it. GO.

[Ironwolf]

Here is the problem, when you are sensitive to an issue at times that issue becomes the lens you see the world through.

I am Cherokee and my people have a thing called the Trail of Tears http://ngeorgia.com/history/nghisttt.html, where they were forcably removed from their land by a sitting US President (Andrew Jackson) in violation of the Supreme Courts ruling.

They marched men, women and children during the winter over 1000 miles off their lands into the cold depths of winter. In the journey over 4,000 died.

Now some people hold to these things and use them to paint the white man as evil and hateful completely ignoring that many whites voted AGAINST this  (passed by one vote) and that the Supreme Court voted against it as well. This can feed hate and harms you far more than those you hate. I don't know you personally but I have seen your posts where you let people define you, where you let others take your honor.

Honor is not something you just lose. I have had times when people spoke of me with evil intent and I had a choice - let them speak with hate while I answer with dignity and let my life and how I live shame them or to let hate find a place in my heart as well as theirs. This world is full of those who hate and find fault and you can chose to fight ignorance with your heart and mind or be swept away with the tide as others are.

I don't know if you know of my people's customs but being humiliated by an enemy and not reacting in anyway is a sign of power and strength. It doesn't mean you don't fight, it means you don't take your foes hatred into your own heart and into your soul for want of a better word. The best way I have seen this put is by Miyamoto Musashi (A Book of Five Rings - Fire Book):

When you have mastered the Way of strategy, you can suddenly make your body like a rock, and ten thousand things cannot touch you. This is the body of a rock [Iwao no Mi] .

You will not be moved. This is the oral tradition. [Body like a rock means that as soon as a swordsman reaches the utmost world and is awakened spiritually; he is united with natural law. Like a rock, this law does not refer to either objects or materials. The meaning of the massive body of rock is an immovable place, an immovable mind. A mind which is free from other things, a natural, peaceful, free ranging mind].

[Illusionss]

Over-sensitivity for the lose.

God forbid anyone, ever even so much as make a comment noting the fact that cultural divides exist. There will also be no attempting to understand a cultural divide, or any honest discussion of same. To even admit in one's own head that these concepts exist is to be instantly branded "racist."

I have been online since 1997, and I have over the course of that time been called every name, every epithet, I have had my family and myself personally threatened with bodily harm [not recently, but just saying]. I have had my home address and phone number outed in an effort to induce real-world harm. I am sure many here can claim similar, for it is what happens if you interact on online forums. If you're online, and you have an opinion, you had best be ready for disagreements that many would happily carry into the real world. If they can induce someone to do the work for them, so much the better.

I am still out here, unbowed, psyche intact. This is because the opinions of fools mean less than nothing to me. If you are online you had better be bolted together very tightly, because psychological warfare can get very intense.

Oversensitivity will get you in trouble. And screaming "RACIST!" every time some idiot hurts your feelings makes you look pretty bad. It doesn't help your cause, it in fact overshadows it. What people remember is not the alleged insult, but the overreaction.

[Illusionss]

Ironwolf: I am Cherokee and my people have a thing called the Trail of Tears http://ngeorgia.com/history/nghisttt.html, where they were forcably removed from their land by a sitting US President (Andrew Jackson) in violation of the Supreme Courts ruling.

They marched men, women and children during the winter over 1000 miles off their lands into the cold depths of winter. In the journey over 4,000 died.

I'm sorry, Ironwolf. For real. There is no excuse for the things that happened to Native Americans back then, and many of us feel shame to even think of it. Its embarrassing to think that maybe Native Americans even now might think that in our hearts today, other Americans might condone those actions. I promise you that most of us dont. If we could somehow undo what happened, we would.

I dont see how the perpetrators can rest easy in their graves.

Peace to you and yours.

[pewlagon]

Sorry, but as far as Blade & Soul is concerned, it's the skimpy outfits coupled with the blatant advertising of the physics engine that disgusts me on it. YES, it's targeting a certain demographic, but for me (as part of that target demographic) it's just plain disgusting. That and the fact that soon after the announcement of CoH's closure, and to this day, my refund is being held up to be transferred into that specific game. I have yet to see dime one and they have all my information, but every time a handoff comes up (to another CS rep) I get, "We have this great game coming up... yada yada yada." Sorry that game deserves to get panned and I don't do so with flagrant name calling but rather tha backhanded way I'm being treated with it being thrown in my face.

Also, blanket labeling everyone is a horrendous response and unforgivable for me. I'm am the most unbiased person on this planet (with the exception of my disdain toward criminals.) I like the Titan Network because it gives me a sense that part of CoH is still alive. Did I like the stupid attack on Toast, no, it was uncalled for. Did I like being labeled a racist when I have a hard time talking to my own mother because she IS one, no way. Blanket labeling everyone is just as bad as singling someone out. Hate doesn't belong anywhere and CoH should have delivered that message clearly.

My YouTube editor was called some pretty lousy things on the CoH forums over the years, but that little group of "I Told You So" jerks can say whatever the heck they want. All they amount to is overaged bullies and any attempt at appologies will never be accepted by me, especially attempts at rationalizing said behavior.

[johnrobey]

Welcome back, Toast! (which perhaps erroneously assumes you'd left.)

On to the more general topic of cultural sensitivity and forums.   Personally, I found those last few weeks on the official forums to be hell.  I couldn't NOT check them out but was often dismayed at what I saw posted there.  Thus far (imo) Titan Network has managed to avoid most of that.

Back to I Burnt the Toast, I actually appreciated what you and others wrote about the Korean concept of kibun, since that was a term I'd never heard before, but while I am no sociologist or anthropologist, I suspect most cultures have concepts for shame and honor--and yes, I find it distressing that people sometimes kill themselves for such reasons (e.g. gay teenagers, etc.)   I felt there was an over emphasis on NCSoft being a foreign (i.e. not U.S.) corporation.   I felt there were those who wanted to better understand Korean culture to see whether that could help us persuade NCSoft not to kill CoH, but there was also a lot of venting in general over our collective dismay at CoH getting closed, and some of it did strike me as racist/nationalist.  It's part of why I haven't said much about the Colbert Nation movement: I think it would be great for Colbert Nation to take up our cause, but I'd hate for them to do so simply out of nationalistic feelings.

Perhaps I have a pollyanna prescription in my eye glasses, but I think the majority of people are able to look beyond cultural concepts of race and nationality to see the actual humans behind such facades/cultural overlays.  I don't want to say that culture isn't important; it is.  Nor do I wish to assert that the U.S. is free from prejudice; we're not and have a sizable population of people who still subscribe to such notions.

While I could be entirely wrong, I think NCSoft should be approached as a corporate culture, rather than a purely Korean one, though perhaps Korean culture is a greater factor than I realize.  Hoping we soon have this on track and that if there are any lingering feelings of nationalism/racism, they soon fade.  One of the things I liked best in CoH was having friends and SGmates from all over the world.  I loved it that despite individual and cultural differences, we all loved playing our superheroes and super villains.

[johnrobey]

Sorry, but as far as Blade & Soul is concerned, it's the skimpy outfits coupled with the blatant advertising of the physics engine that disgusts me on it. YES, it's targeting a certain demographic, but for me (as part of that target demographic) it's just plain disgusting. That and the fact that soon after the announcement of CoH's closure, and to this day, my refund is being held up to be transferred into that specific game. I have yet to see dime one and they have all my information, but every time a handoff comes up (to another CS rep) I get, "We have this great game coming up... yada yada yada."

Hmmm, I had a very different experience with NCSoft.  Not once did they try to hold on to my money or redirect me toward B&S or any other of their products; instead I got very good customer service; they even refunded my last purchase of paragon points (in addition to my annual subscription) with little hassle, even though I suspected that last PP purchase was outside the period they were refunding.  I did have to go thru the hassle of contacting them and getting my master NCSoft account working again--I think game closure had unexpected effects on billing/account records--but after that was done, no hassle, just professional, prompt, courteous and full refund.  Best of luck working with Customer Service.  I recommend you ask to be referred to a supervisor, since it took a supervisor on their side to fix things for me and to process my refund request.  Good luck!

[corvus1970]

Toast, I have read your response to me and it changes absolutely nothing about what I said. I stand by what I told you. If you are unwilling to step outside of your anger and see it for what it has become, then that is not my problem.

This will be my 2nd and final response to this sidebar. Any further posts in this thread by me will address the topic, and the topic alone. So, consider this my last word on the matter.

That's a bit excessive and kind of what he was talking about.

I'm sorry you think so, but I don't think its excessive at all.

You know people by how they act and what they say, and that is never truer than it is online, where the only actions we see are generally those that are typed out. I bore witness to his broad-brushing of Titan, and it gave me a very poor impression of the person behind the posts. Now that I know the genesis of it, it doesn't change my impression of his actions of late. Sure, I now understand the why, but I don't condone the reaction to it, nor shall I.

When you take anger and hate, and then regurgitate anger and hate in return, you become a mirror for it. In essence you can become like that which you hate. Anger can be useful, but it must be tempered with reason. What I see here is an anger that resists reason. It is not healthy, and it will not lead anywhere good.

[Colette]

Hello, Burnt Toast.

Well, this is a fine bit of irony. I've been hoping desperately that we'd find a Korean or Korean-American CoH player to help guide us all through the idiosyncracies of Korean culture and values, and someone who could get the message of our displeasure out there in Hangul. And here you are!

...except that for whatever reason, something to do with something called "kibun" that I have no clue about, except it's apparently very insulting, you're not interested in participating.

Toast, I can't speak for others here. I can speak for myself. I have no resentments against Koreans at all, beyond a certain cabal of tyrants who seem determined to transform the northern half of the place into some combination of Oceania, Tomainia, and Mordor. I've served alongside and under Koreans as a soldier.

Regarding NCSoft, I must state simply that they're inconsiderate jerks. They sold me a new powerset three days before they sent out the shutdown notice. Furthermore, after five years I happened to have my account lapsed when the shutdown hit without prior notice, and couldn't really play the game in its last months. Finally, rather than seeking to sell the property, they appear to want to lock it in a vault forever, alongside five other MMOs.

And they're replaced CoH with a vulgar, demeaning titty-porn game. That is why I created the "NCSoftcore" label, and I stand behind it. I emphatically don't like the way NCSoft does business.

Toast, we need a Korean-American with us. We need someone to tell us what messages are effective in Korea, and what will just tick people off. We need someone to help us communicate to our fellow gamers in Korea why we're so upset, and how brutally NCSoft treats its customers.

Perhaps I'm blind, but I don't see racism here on Titan. Every time someone has said that we've gone too far, and are sending a message that could be considered racist or any kind of "ist" at all, we have backtracked. We have exercised care, to the best of our limited knowledge, to avoid unbecoming behavior. To that end, everything VictoriaVictrix and I do on this site is signed with our real names. We're not hiding behind Internet anonymity.

When people have offered us opinions on Korean mores, I have questioned their credentials. Yours appear to exceed anybody else's here. If you are what you say you are, your expertise would be priceless and frankly, we need all the help we can get.

But if, instead, you want to sulk, and occasionally pop in to call us names (or make up overwrought stories about your grandparents not being allowed to speak with you, which does not tally with any Koreans I know,) that's not helping you or me get back into Paragon.

The choice is yours.



(No, the above isn't one of my memes. I'd have punctuated it correctly.  )

[JaguarX]

 (or make up overwrought stories about your grandparents not being allowed to speak with you, which does not tally with any Koreans I know,)

Well even some South Koreans have family that are still in North Korea especially people like Grand parents and a lot of times, many do not get to speak to them at all due to how difficult it is sometimes to cross back and forth from the DMZ. This may be Toast case may not be but grandparents not allowed to speak to family or various other family members not allowed to speak or outcast is not unheard of there. But the point I dont think it's good to say it's made up without knowing Toast family situation in detail. Not all Koreans are the same. Nor is being Korean (Or Korean-American from what I gather what Toast said he is.)  mean it's immune to family situations such as that.

I know some Koreans who never even met their Grandparents at all on either side. I know some that stopped talking to them, while others refuse to speak to each other over life style choices. I even know some that dont and havent spoken to their own parents in over a decade and counting. Just like what can and happen to all nationalities, races, and people of various country origin and backgrounds. People are people.

[FatherXmas]

...except that for whatever reason, something to do with something called "kibun" that I have no clue about, except it's apparently very insulting, you're not interested in participating.

He tried and was blown off, that's his point. 

You don't open negotiations by spitting in the face of the party you are looking to win over.  He tried to explain why certain approaches would seem exactly like that in Korea and was promptly shouted down, sometimes with the exact cultural taboo he was warning against, after he repeatedly stated how insulting it is, by people involved with the Titan effort before the plug was pulled Nov 30th.

Most people in the US simply don't have the kind of ingrain cultural taboos and practices that are found in other countries around the world.  We don't understand so we often dismiss them until it blows up in our face.

[Knightslayer]

Oh and CE regarding your post (It was posted as I was typing mine and I saw it when I hit preview)....Titan forums have not attracted more than 75 people on an average day since December 1 (The night CoH closed down when 300+ people were here). There are not THOUSANDS of people working on either Plan Z and there are not THOUSANDS of people active here. Many people have simply moved on....especially after no results came out of the Unity Rally. When I stated 100.. I was being generous as on any given day these forums are lucky to attract 60 - 70 unique visitors a day.

I'm sorry you left under such unpleasant circumstances, Toast - I feel I should point out that unique visitors a day does not equal the community size though; not everyone checks daily, I myself do it.
Thousands is an extremely generous number (which people probably keep getting from the petition), but in total I also believe that a hundred falls far short of it.

[Little Green Frog]

Perhaps I'm blind, but I don't see racism here on Titan.

It was here. Not the blatant, self aware racism, with torches and brown shirts, but the sneaky, unwitting one. The kind of racism that usually follows a conjunction in a sentence that starts with "I am not a racist, but...". One that is very hard to see for the person who articulates it, unless they are making conscious effort to quench it, but none less painful for the recipient.

Luckily there are only traces of it now. But month ago Titan was a much different place. Racist remarks were flying around, right in the open, and were widely accepted.

Every time someone has said that we've gone too far, and are sending a message that could be considered racist or any kind of "ist" at all, we have backtracked.

Every time someone has said that, stood by their words and did not back down after being called a unicorn, NCsoft spy, accused of being obsessed with political correctness and threatened with mod retaliation, you mean.

But it is true that the community did change for the better and that is nothing short of amazing.

[Codewalker]

I'm sorry you left under such unpleasant circumstances, Toast - I feel I should point out that unique visitors a day does not equal the community size though; not everyone checks daily, I myself do it.
Thousands is an extremely generous number (which people probably keep getting from the petition), but in total I also believe that a hundred falls far short of it.

I think Toast is looking at the SMF stats and misinterpreting them. Namely the "most online" count which is a measure of concurrent registered users online at once (and 'online' is pretty fuzzy for a stateless protocol like HTTP), or possibly the 'average per day' numbers, which IIRC show an average over the entire lifetime of the forum rather than a moving average. "Unique visitors per day" is not a statistic that the forum software makes publicly available.

I just did a quick query of the database. 601 unique registered accounts logged in to the forums yesterday. 107 of them decided to post something. That doesn't count people who lurk logged out and only log in when they want to post. 180 unique accounts have posted to the forums since 1/1/2013.

965 unique accounts posted to the forums in the month of December. 2,018 have logged in since 12/1/2012. It's 755 and 1,829, respectively, if you exclude everything before 12/5, since 12/1 was a fairly busy day.

[Colette]

I'd really like to know more about the story Toast alluded to. South Korea is not some repressive backwater, I've been there. The government and the people are modern and tolerant, maybe a smidge insular and provincial. I think the Koreans I know would take exception to what Toast's implying.

Frog, you've mentioned you don't live in the US, so I'm gonna explain this. Folks in the US are very sensitive, because of a downright awful history. We're trying hard, this past election a minority-ethnicity president ran against a minority-creed candidate, so there's progress. Calling someone a racist here is pretty much like walking up to a German and calling him a Nazi to his face, or calling a Catholic a pedophile. There are just some things you don't do, or if you must, with a great deal of tact and delicacy. In sum, you caught hell because you were acting like an insensitive boor.

Maybe that's kinda like our equivalent of a "kibun." Dunno.

Finally to Titan in general, I wouldn't associate myself with a site that didn't measure up. The mods here do a great job of policing the rot. Perhaps that wasn't the case early on, I dunno. But it is now. Ms. Lackey and I have both abandoned our Internet anonymity for the sake of the cause. We have put our real-life reputations on the line. We have a stake in defending this site's good name.

So, if Toast isn't coming back, that's a shame and our loss. I dunno what this "kibun" he's talking about is, but let's hope the same mistake doesn't happen again. We still very much need Koreans or Korean-Americans sympathetic to our cause and eager to help us.

[P51mus]

I think Toast is looking at the SMF stats and misinterpreting them. Namely the "most online" count which is a measure of concurrent registered users online at once (and 'online' is pretty fuzzy for a stateless protocol like HTTP), or possibly the 'average per day' numbers, which IIRC show an average over the entire lifetime of the forum rather than a moving average. "Unique visitors per day" is not a statistic that the forum software makes publicly available.

I just did a quick query of the database. 601 unique registered accounts logged in to the forums yesterday. 107 of them decided to post something. That doesn't count people who lurk logged out and only log in when they want to post. 180 unique accounts have posted to the forums since 1/1/2013.

965 unique accounts posted to the forums in the month of December. 2,018 have logged in since 12/1/2012. It's 755 and 1,829, respectively, if you exclude everything before 12/5, since 12/1 was a fairly busy day.

There's a statistic that says "online today".  Is that like most online where it counts the highest number of concurrent users for the current day so far? And is definitely a smaller number than unique users that day.

[Codewalker]

There's a statistic that says "online today".  Is that like most online where it counts the highest number of concurrent users for the current day so far? And is definitely a smaller number than unique users that day.

Yes, that's exactly what it is -- the highest count of concurrent users that the board has seen so far today. I think the "online" timeout is somewhere around 10-15 minutes, so it's a fairly small window to be considered concurrent.

First thing in the morning when the daily stats roll over, it will be the exact same number as "Users Online"

[Little Green Frog]

Frog, you've mentioned you don't live in the US, so I'm gonna explain this. Folks in the US are very sensitive, because of a downright awful history. We're trying hard, this past election a minority-ethnicity president ran against a minority-creed candidate, so there's progress. Calling someone a racist here is pretty much like walking up to a German and calling him a Nazi to his face, or calling a Catholic a pedophile. There are just some things you don't do, or if you must, with a great deal of tact and delicacy. In sum, you caught hell because you were acting like an insensitive boor.

How else was I supposed to call it? It was what it was. I knew I wouldn't be the most popular frog around for bringing it up, but sometimes there is simply no gentle way of saying things that matter.

[therain93]

I'd really like to know more about the story Toast alluded to. South Korea is not some repressive backwater, I've been there. The government and the people are modern and tolerant, maybe a smidge insular and provincial. I think the Koreans I know would take exception to what Toast's implying.

Frog, you've mentioned you don't live in the US, so I'm gonna explain this. Folks in the US are very sensitive, because of a downright awful history. We're trying hard, this past election a minority-ethnicity president ran against a minority-creed candidate, so there's progress. Calling someone a racist here is pretty much like walking up to a German and calling him a Nazi to his face, or calling a Catholic a pedophile. There are just some things you don't do, or if you must, with a great deal of tact and delicacy. In sum, you caught hell because you were acting like an insensitive boor.

Maybe that's kinda like our equivalent of a "kibun." Dunno.

Finally to Titan in general, I wouldn't associate myself with a site that didn't measure up. The mods here do a great job of policing the rot. Perhaps that wasn't the case early on, I dunno. But it is now. Ms. Lackey and I have both abandoned our Internet anonymity for the sake of the cause. We have put our real-life reputations on the line. We have a stake in defending this site's good name.

So, if Toast isn't coming back, that's a shame and our loss. I dunno what this "kibun" he's talking about is, but let's hope the same mistake doesn't happen again. We still very much need Koreans or Korean-Americans sympathetic to our cause and eager to help us.

/e facepalm

Can we lock this thread please? -- At the very least, grounds would be that this is so way off base from the OP now. 

[Starsman]

Frog, you've mentioned you don't live in the US, so I'm gonna explain this. Folks in the US are very sensitive, because of a downright awful history. We're trying hard, this past election a minority-ethnicity president ran against a minority-creed candidate, so there's progress. Calling someone a racist here is pretty much like walking up to a German and calling him a Nazi to his face

The parallel would be adequate only if Germany is also still full of Nazis, because there is still a high level of racism in the states.

The racism shown in the forums, though, tends to be of a slight different variety.

Discrimination, sexism and racism all tend to come in 3 forms:

1) Superiority complex
2) Plain hate
3) Ignorance

The forms we see in the forums tend to be mostly pure ignorance. Racism via Ignorance is still very real, and in some cases worse, as they will do very offensive things and then dare get angry because someone took offense, offending more in the process. Like posting meme images dismissing the offeded, for instance.

Usually, when you are told something is racist, you are not supposed to argue it, you are supposed to apologize and perhaps admit you were not aware of it, then never do the same thing again.

[P51mus]

I am wondering why Burnt Toast never mentioned any of this kibun stuff in the kibun thread itself.  Being angry at people for not knowing what they're doing and refusing to tell them why exactly you're angry at them seems silly too.  Or at least, mentioning it vaguely for a really long amount of time and never mentioning it where the grievance originated until months after.

Whoever put Toast's name in red most likely had no idea how extreme kibun apparently is.  Or at least is to Toast.  All the talk about it I saw on that thread, if I remember correctly, mostly thought Kibun was just a mild/moderate shaming sort of thing.  Not some sort of family death threat or whatever.  So, cultural misunderstanding out of ignorance, which is pretty easy to do.  And the only way to get rid of ignorance is education, with a side dose of patience. 

And a note about Colbert: For anyone not yet aware, Colbert is not actually a hyperpatriotic crazy right wing American with a tv show.  He's a comedian making a parody of that.  He's playing a character.  If nothing else, if he picked up on it, it'd be amusing.  The Super PAC stuff he did last year was hilarious.

[Starsman]

Whoever put Toast's name in red most likely had no idea how extreme kibun apparently is.  Or at least is to Toast.

I think the individual was VERY aware.

All the talk about it I saw on that thread, if I remember correctly, mostly thought Kibun was just a mild/moderate shaming sort of thing.  Not some sort of family death threat or whatever.

I understand that individual also did dive into the death threat "jokes".

[WildFire15]

/e facepalm

Can we lock this thread please? -- At the very least, grounds would be that this is so way off base from the OP now.

I agree, this discussion isn't really getting us anywhere fast.

In an attempt to get back on topic, I'm kinda please CoH's closing was still considered a top story this year next to the maraud of stuff that's also happened. While he was wrong about the the game making no money, he's kept us in the public eye to a degree and we really need to remain known if we want to succeed.

[TimtheEnchanter]

Usually, when you are told something is racist, you are not supposed to argue it, you are supposed to apologize and perhaps admit you were not aware of it, then never do the same thing again.

While I do agree that there were racist comments flying around, the statement above, I can't completely get behind. We live in a world where being the victim has more benefits than being the perpetrator (which is a complete paradox of terms but is nevertheless true). And this "race to victim-hood" has caused people to find offense in things that are not only unintentionally offensive, but would also not be offensive were individuals not trying so hard to find a reason to be offended. The race card, the sex card, the religion card, the <insert historically-oppressed group of choice here> card, have all become so heavily abused in our world, that instead of reducing hate, they are adding to it by creating jealousy.

[P51mus]

I think the individual was VERY aware.

I understand that individual also did dive into the death threat "jokes".

Oh, ew.  I stayed away from the official forums in the last months because of how bad it got. So much trolling, almost no moderation.

[Colette]

I agree that this is getting us nowhere.

Whatever the insult was that alienated Toast, it was unfortunate. NCSoft's actions have already "poisoned the well" with MMOs in the English-speaking world; gamers are hesitating to invest their time and money in server-based subscription games, and I don't blame them.

If we could communicate more clearly and loudly to our counterparts in the Korean gaming community, then NCSoft would start to really feel the heat, and would be more likely to sell the IP.

But to accomplish that, we need Koreans here. Whatever happened to Toast, that mistake must not be repeated.

Point made, lets move on.

[Little Green Frog]

Whatever the insult was that alienated Toast, it was unfortunate. NCSoft's actions have already "poisoned the well" with MMOs in the English-speaking world;

Unfortunately they are still popular with us francophones, hispanophones, slavophones and whattaphones. Because the game closure clearly only affected people from english speaking countries.

I cannot help but marvel at your lack of cultural sensitivity.

[Starsman]

If we could communicate more clearly and loudly to our counterparts in the Korean gaming community, then NCSoft would start to really feel the heat, and would be more likely to sell the IP.

But to accomplish that, we need Koreans here. Whatever happened to Toast, that mistake must not be repeated.

Start by forgetting about their nationality and just thinking about them as plain people, instead of trying to hunt down cultural weapons to help you negotiate.

I am certain they have enough english speakers at their headquarters to understand the words that come out of our keyboards. Trying to look too much into the fact that they are Koreans is precisely the mistake that should not be repeated.

hispanophones

What did you just called me?!

 

[WildFire15]

Start by forgetting about their nationality and just thinking about them as plain people, instead of trying to hunt down cultural weapons to help you negotiate.

This multiple times over.

[TimtheEnchanter]

This multiple times over.

If there IS a cultural barrier there that is making communication less than optimal, is it racism to look for a way around it?

Is it an socially unacceptable "ism" if you find out your teacher likes oranges instead of apples and you give her an orange in the hopes of turning a C into a C+?

Fighting over cultural differences is bad. Ignoring cultural differences is not the opposite of fighting. It brings about its own problems.

If someone spits on your floor on planet Arakis, it's a sign of good faith. Anywhere else in the universe it's an insult. Ignoring cultural differences is bad. Understanding them is key.

[Starsman]

[Little Green Frog]

What did you just called me?!

 

Well, since I am here and you are talking to me from over there, you are clearly a telephone.

I like to think of myself as a smartphone. But I am probably a hydrophone. (It's funny, because I'm an amphibian.)

[Ironwolf]

In America to my mind you are an American first and then if you choose to play a victim card based on other qualifiers you then lose the equality granted by being an American.

I don't look at color, size of checking account or male or female (unless you are a cute young girl then you get an extra smile because at 53 I can get away with it now). My treatment of you if equal regardless of whether you pitch, catch or switch hit. I know many people think that the old religious stereotypes of "right" wingers are still true and that we are narrow minded and intolerant. This is also false as many stereotypes are.

Like how people were shocked when they saw how conservatives reacted to Sarah Palin's pregnant daughter - we minded our own business and let them deal with her. People also forget or don't know Dick Chaney's daughter is gay and no one cared. Intolerance finds a hold in many hearts and hate is hate whether it is for your color, who you sleep with or who you pray to that causes the hate.

[dwturducken]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5C6X9vOEkU

[johnrobey]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5C6X9vOEkU

What a fun cute song and vid!   

[johnrobey]

That doesn't count people who lurk logged out and only log in when they want to post.

I think that would be the vast majority.  I don't log in except to post.

[Knightslayer]

I think Toast is looking at the SMF stats and misinterpreting them. Namely the "most online" count which is a measure of concurrent registered users online at once (and 'online' is pretty fuzzy for a stateless protocol like HTTP), or possibly the 'average per day' numbers, which IIRC show an average over the entire lifetime of the forum rather than a moving average. "Unique visitors per day" is not a statistic that the forum software makes publicly available.

I just did a quick query of the database. 601 unique registered accounts logged in to the forums yesterday. 107 of them decided to post something. That doesn't count people who lurk logged out and only log in when they want to post. 180 unique accounts have posted to the forums since 1/1/2013.

965 unique accounts posted to the forums in the month of December. 2,018 have logged in since 12/1/2012. It's 755 and 1,829, respectively, if you exclude everything before 12/5, since 12/1 was a fairly busy day.

Thanks Walker! That's more in line with what I thought the numbers might be like.

[OzonePrime]

http://www.mmorpg.com/showVideo.cfm/videoId/2867

So, Bill Murphy lists the closure of City of Heroes as the #5 top story of 2012, which is good.....and then at 1:15 he says it's all about the profits and that City of Heroes could no longer turn one....not so good.

This is the original post for this thread. How do the last two or three pages of posts relate to this?

[pewlagon]

It relates because someone blanket bombed Titan Network for certain actions rather than looking deeper to see if things have changed or singling out the individuals who reacted pourly in the first place. I, for one, am very offended because I do not associate with racism or intollerence in any form. The individual is one, of a group, that were bombing post after post on the CoH forums basically summing up to "I told you so" that CoH was Doomed. It's just like the foolishness over the date for the end of thw world, didn't happen, but eventually something bad will happen and someone will jump up and say "I told you today was the day, such and such was right. Shame on you for not believing." Personally, that group sickened me because whenever they disliked something stated about the closure they bombed the posts until people either put them on ignore or left the forums entirely (like my editor.) I, for one, won't put up with the post bombing here, especially, when I was blanket labelled as something that is just as offensive to me as the prior actions were to him. "Two wrongs don't make a right."

[Starsman]

This is the original post for this thread. How do the last two or three pages of posts relate to this?

Follow your link, read the comments, all of them, and you will get it.

[OzonePrime]

Ok. Had not read all of them.
Sad!

[corvus1970]

Its okay Ozone, we still love ya!