I have been wondering this for a while now re: Buying CoH

[Surelle]

Hi!

This question has been on my mind for a while now, so I'm finally just going to ask.

Why is it that we fans are the ones trying to drum up business for buying the CoH IP instead of the PS heads that aren't otherwise engaged doing it instead?  We keep trying over and over, so why aren't they?  It seemed kind of weird to me when I read on the boards here that Matt Miller was disappointed that the SaveCoH campaign didn't work.  I mean, of course we all want CoH back, but why aren't THEY doing it to begin with instead of seeming like they're now just sitting on the sidelines waiting for some miracle from the fans?  I'm sure Brian, Melissa and Matt etc. could write up even better stuff and they'd know the business a lot better and be able to pitch things even better being that they created the game and ran it for 8 1/2 years.  The whole thing seems a bit odd once you think about it.

Is there no tangible interest so that they've given up the hope of ever getting the financial backing to do it themselves?  Or is NCSoft truly just not selling the IP no matter what, despite what the Korea Times article said? 

It seems like if the situation wasn't utterly hopeless, they would be doing it.

There-- I said it.  I feel better now.

[Ceremonius]

Well I actually do think they are working too. Maybe more lurking in the shadows, but they are around and have an eye on us.

The actual problem is that they were employees.
Wich means that if they do work in public the next company could decide to NOT hire them.
Every company wants loyal employees.
Turning up AGAINST NCSoft could be misleading in untrustworthyness or something like that.

But as far as I know some of them a crawling around here

[JaguarX]

Yeah wouldn't be a good look while looking for a job in the same market, especially the parts about going against NCSoft or any ex-employer for that matter.

[Surelle]

Yeah wouldn't be a good look while looking for a job in the same market, especially the parts about going against NCSoft or any ex-employer for that matter.

Yeah, but first off, no one in the business could blame them for trying to get backers to buy the IP, or for trying to get NCSoft to sell.  Neither has anything to do with how their fan base feels.  That is totally our own reaction to how we were treated by NCSoft. 

And secondly, if they were able to buy the IP back and rez CoH, they wouldn't need jobs.   

I am sorry to say I stand behind my first post.  I don't understand what's really going on there.

[JaguarX]

good points.

I thought you meant by trying to get them to sell the IP you meant actually joining the fan's reaction activities.

Well, I think somewhere there was some contact information for some of them and or some of them still have twitter and or facebook. You might be able to contact them directly and ask. I think that is the only to get a straight up honest minus middle man answer to those questions. I mean who knows besides them? They might be busy, they might not want to, they may be already doing something, they may be gagged. Only way to know is directly from them or else it's all speculative answers.

[Septipheran]

http://www.mmodesigner.com/


Apparently Positron is a defeatist. But really can you blame them? They all lost their freaking jobs, we all lost a hobby. They have more pressing concerns and rightfully so. We have more free time than we did before we lost a game. Do the math.

[corvus1970]

Apparently Positron is a defeatist. But really can you blame them? They all lost their freaking jobs, we all lost a hobby. They have more pressing concerns and rightfully so. We have more free time than we did before we lost a game. Do the math.

Can't blame them one darned bit.

[Valjean]

So there are several things to consider.

1) We don't know what efforts were made or not made by the PS team. They were (and are) all still under NDA, so anything they tried or didn't try can't be shared most likely.

2) We don't know what efforts (if any) are being made now, either. In a lot of cases, especially when there's legal snafus, it's better to do it under the radar until your ducks are lined up.

3) In their entire 15+ year history, NCsoft has never once ever sold any of their IP to one of their development studios.


Considering the PS team, especially people like Matt and Melissa, spent over a decade of their lives on COH, I think it's reasonable to assume that they did their best to pull victory from defeat, but for whatever reason, it didn't work out.

[JaguarX]

http://www.mmodesigner.com/


Apparently Positron is a defeatist. But really can you blame them? They all lost their freaking jobs, we all lost a hobby. They have more pressing concerns and rightfully so. We have more free time than we did before we lost a game. Do the math.

Yeah, one of the reason I couldn't find myself to be devastated by the loss of this game, saddened yes for a minute, and then felt more for the people that lost their job than for me not having COX. I lost a game, but they lost their livelihood. In that perspective I would feel silly if I felt like a true loss for the game while these people actually lost something for real. Not saying that the loss of the game wasnt real but using real in the context of something that have an effect on their lives like loss of income which affects things like house payments, bills, transportation, family, food, and stuff. And definitely not saying that people that feel sad or very much hurt by the loss is silly. I'm saying I coulndn't do it knowing how it affected people's livelihood in a very realist manner, loss of job.

Clearing that up before someone misinterprets and try to stir up a mob because I know it's still probably a sensitive subject and thus only speaking about myself and not, nor insinuating, or suggesting how someone else should feel, do feel, supposed to feel, or what to feel.

[dwturducken]

I'm not weighing in one way or the other on this, but do we know what kind of efforts were made in the prior games?

[JaguarX]

I'm not weighing in one way or the other on this, but do we know what kind of efforts were made in the prior games?

...about that...

[Kaiser Tarantula]

I'm not weighing in one way or the other on this, but do we know what kind of efforts were made in the prior games?

Most games NC's shut down went quietly.  A couple people tried to purchase Auto Assault after it shut down, but were flatly refused.  NC kinda made a statement there that they don't sell unused IPs, and everyone pretty much assumed trying to pry them away with PR pressure was a lost cause.

Until we rolled around.

[Victoria Victrix]

In the month following the game closure, Brian, Matt, and the others were collecting investors and actively bargaining with NCSoft to buy back the game and set up Paragon Studios again.

At the very last minute, NCSoft came back with a list of liabilities they wanted the new entity to assume.  Part of that list was that each and every one of them (investors and members of Paragon Studios) would be held PERSONALLY responsible for those liabilities.  Not just the new corporation would be responsible, but each of them personally.  I have never, ever, heard of anything like that.  It's just plain vindictive.  This is probably why Matt is so pessimistic.  It's pretty clear NCSoft has a vendetta going.

This is when we got the "all options have been exhausted" letter.

At that point, people had to look at getting new jobs, because the ground was coming up fast and their parachutes had timers on them.

The venture capitalists probably took their money elsewhere; these guys don't leave money sitting around for long.

People started putting every minute they had into job hunting.  Face it, when you are out of work, you have bills to pay and a family to take care of, you don't waste time you could be spending tailoring a resume on ANYTHING else.  And once you GET a job you are on probation; you don't want to be seen putting your time into anything other than being a good employee.

This is where we come in.  We are doing this, because this is something they can't--or are too discouraged and pessimistic to try.  We have time--time we were spending playing CoX, so what's the harm in spending a little (and face it, aside from Team Wildcard, most of you are spending VERY little) actual time on turning over every possible rock?  Brian is still sure he can get a core group of devs to support the game if we can find it a home.  Until he tells me that is not possible, I am not giving up.

Now no one is holding your feet to the fire and making you do any of this.  If you don't want to anymore, then don't.  Wander off elsewhere.  Find another game.  Take up golf.  Whatever you feel you want to do.  We always knew that in the first week people would start to drop off because we didn't get instant satisfaction.  Team Wildcard is in this for the long haul; I expect to spend at least a year going through the list.  And if I am the only one still doing that, so be it.  It took me 4 years to get a toon to 50, so spending a year trying to get the best MMORPG ever back in business doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

[Terwyn]

At the very last minute, NCSoft came back with a list of liabilities they wanted the new entity to assume.  Part of that list was that each and every one of them (investors and members of Paragon Studios) would be held PERSONALLY responsible for those liabilities.  Not just the new corporation would be responsible, but each of them personally.  I have never, ever, heard of anything like that.  It's just plain vindictive.  This is probably why Matt is so pessimistic.  It's pretty clear NCSoft has a vendetta going.

As far as I know about Canadian business law, this is illegal. I suspect that it is also the case in the US. I wonder who we could share that information with?

[Jordan_Lee]

I'm not weighing in one way or the other on this, but do we know what kind of efforts were made in the prior games?

Didn't Tabula Rasa have an effort? I wasn't part of it and didn't care about it at the time to really pay attention. But Have any of the other games had what CoH had? Eight years on the market, that's a long time to build up a loyal customer base. Exteel, Tabula, Auto Assault, and Dungeon Runners were only open a few years.
Also, didn't those games sort of know it was coming? Low player numbers, and such? CoH was caught completely off guard, and with no acceptable reason seeing as it was still profitable, new content was about to be released, etc.

So, no I really don't know what efforts were done with other games. And to be honest I don't care about those other games, I played the ones mentioned and I didn't like any of them.

As for the OP, I'm sure the devs are lurking in one form or another. And I wish they'd chime in myself, however I understand why they cannot. This is professional for them, it's best they not get formally involved. I wish the best for each and every one of them, and hope that in the future we get to be a community again. I'm not a very vocal participant, but I'm a regular lurker watching. As long as some part of the community is still here, I'll be here, too. That weird neighbor that doesn't really talk or have visitors, but smiles if she accidentally makes eye contact.

[Victoria Victrix]

As far as I know about Canadian business law, this is illegal. I suspect that it is also the case in the US. I wonder who we could share that information with?

That part comes under "don't share that around please."  Remember what Matt said in his interview.  "Some of the reasons will never come to light."  Well, if a certain suspicion of money-laundering is taken seriously by the FBI, the second may not turn out to be true, but...discretion please.

Didn't Tabula Rasa have an effort? I wasn't part of it and didn't care about it at the time to really pay attention. But Have any of the other games had what CoH had? Eight years on the market, that's a long time to build up a loyal customer base. Exteel, Tabula, Auto Assault, and Dungeon Runners were only open a few years.

Also, didn't those games sort of know it was coming? Low player numbers, and such? CoH was caught completely off guard, and with no acceptable reason seeing as it was still profitable, new content was about to be released, etc.

Richard Garriot tried to buy back Tabula Rasa and was shut down.  A couple attempts to run pirate servers were also shut down.  Auto Assault tried to buy itself back, but didn't try for long.

All the other games were demonstrably in the red.  Tabula Rasa was extremely in the red, BUT (I have no numbers for this, only some anecdotal information) that was largely because NCSoft kept coming in and demanding changes to make it more like the games they were familiar with, with resulting cost overruns.  And of course they blamed that on Garriot.

[JanessaVR]

A couple attempts to run pirate servers were also shut down.

Suffice it say, I don't think their attempts will be as successful here.  Hypothetically speaking, a smart thing to do would be to put the eventually-developed (and it will be developed) CoH private server software on multiple file trading networks as soon as it's ready, and then encourage as many people as possible to download it.  Said people could then set up their own little CoH worlds and invite their friends to play, without advertising its existence to the world.  And with enough people possessing copies, it would be effectively impossible to stamp out.

NCLimp essentially has 2 choices.  They can sell the IP and make some last money off it, and thus regain some measure of respect in the gaming community.  Or they can see the rise of numerous private servers quietly hosted throughout the internet, hidden and unadvertised to the world at large, each consisting of a circle of gamers only giving people they trust the address and login to their private CoH universe.

The lights of Paragon City will shine again.  We will be able to go home one day.  NCLimp just gets to choose if they want to make any money in the process.  The choice is theirs.

[Terwyn]

That part comes under "don't share that around please."  Remember what Matt said in his interview.  "Some of the reasons will never come to light."  Well, if a certain suspicion of money-laundering is taken seriously by the FBI, the second may not turn out to be true, but...discretion please.

I figured as such. My comment was rhetorical.

[Victoria Victrix]

And if I am the only one still doing that, so be it.  It took me 4 years to get a toon to 50, so spending a year trying to get the best MMORPG ever back in business doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

Just wanted to point out that I am 62 years old.  I don't have nearly as many years left as the rest of you do.  And I am still in this for the long haul.

[Kistulot]

Has anyone tried contacting Richard himself?

I may joke about how egotistical he can be (Seriously Richard, did you need Shamino AND Lord British?) but the man cares about his games. Have we seen what kind of resource he could be, if only informational or otherwise vis a vis NCSoft and CoH?

He could be a valuable ally, and he has every bit as much reason to want to take a game back as any of us. More, really besides any hiding devs. Tabula Rasa was one of his babies.

It seems worth giving him a wave.