Author Topic: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About  (Read 12890 times)

Colette

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A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« on: December 13, 2012, 05:37:32 PM »

SARobb

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2012, 05:48:00 PM »
+1

While it's a hard pill to swallow, Colette speaks the truth and articulates it well, I agree 100%.
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Atlantea

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2012, 05:52:18 PM »
No - I think this is a sensible precaution.

Know your enemy and the way he thinks. That's a basic tenet.

Sun Tsu of course said it best - "If you know others and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know others but know yourself, you win one and lose one; if you do not know others and do not know yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle."

Understand that as time goes on, and we keep hurting them, they will attempt to do to this board what I feel was the purpose of the unicorns on the old official boards. I think a few of them were actual plants.


Wingnaut

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2012, 05:59:49 PM »
I agree with everything you said Colette. In fact, just the other day I was sitting here...hold on a sec...*toggles self-censor on*...ok back. Anyway, I was sitting here reading the forums like I do everyday, and noticed a thread where several people were doing the same kind of bickering that I grew tired of on the CoH forums. I thought 'What the flagpole do these gumdrop pancakes think they are doing? Don't they know we need to be united and optomistic that we'll get our pancake game back instead of unicorning each other and causing a rainbow sprinkle storm?'.

 Seriously though, I realize its a forum...and that debates are healthy. We just really need to remember that we have made ourselves very visible...and the changes that we are trying to make are not just for ourselves, but for the MMO community as a whole, and as such lots and lots of people are going to swing on by to see how we are doing. So I don't think it would hurt us any to put our best foot forward, straighten our giglines, and smile for the cameras.

Colette...I don't think your flipping out at all to want us to shine like the heroes and villians we are.  :)

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2012, 06:00:09 PM »
Well, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. Can't really find fault with your reasoning, although like you mentioned, we can't - and shouldn't - go and point fingers, instead focusing on the common goal, rather than division.

HarvesterOfEyes

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2012, 06:12:14 PM »

Quinch

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2012, 06:16:50 PM »
I approve of your choice of literature. And the quote.

V-Mink

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2012, 06:30:32 PM »
I agree with everything you said Colette. In fact, just the other day I was sitting here...hold on a sec...*toggles self-censor on*...ok back. Anyway, I was sitting here reading the forums like I do everyday, and noticed a thread where several people were doing the same kind of bickering that I grew tired of on the CoH forums. I thought 'What the flagpole do these gumdrop pancakes think they are doing? Don't they know we need to be united and optomistic that we'll get our pancake game back instead of unicorning each other and causing a rainbow sprinkle storm?'.
Is it bad of me that the first thing I thought of when I read this was Shaennon Garrity's Skin Horse?

But, yes.  I am in agreement that even if NCsoft is not planting unicorns (and I don't think that they are, personally, but) we owe it to ourselves and our fellow CoH alumni/refugees to provide a united, solid, unimpeachable front.

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2012, 06:33:04 PM »
This isn't a difficult subject at all :)

Like it or not, we're a movement now and all of us represent SaveCOH.  This isn't the COX forums everything posted here has the potential of being quoted by some form of the press.  There's a spotlight on this forum so we need to  act as if the world is watching and behave accordingly. 

Simple easy and direct.

dwturducken

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2012, 06:44:31 PM »
We went through a round of this about a month after Black Friday. It was a little bit more visceral, and there was more direct suspicion and paranoia, which was ironic, since we were getting what we had hoped for: new people. Now, we get a round or two of the die-hards from the Old Forums, and it's happening again.  It worked itself out, last time; I fully expect it to, this time.

Also, the MLP:FIM swear-fest was priceless! I'm showing that to my son, who is a shameless Brony, when he gets home from school. :)
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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2012, 06:56:55 PM »
This is why I've been trying to insert little diplomatic hugs all around. Not because I think everyone is a child and doesn't know we should stick together, but because even the smallest show of impropriety by any one of us could ruin everything if it ends up spun just right.

That said, I hope I haven't annoyed anyone with that - I've just wanted to be helpful :)
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Little Green Frog

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2012, 07:18:27 PM »
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 09:10:46 PM by Little Green Frog »

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2012, 07:44:50 PM »

Illusionss

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2012, 08:00:18 PM »
This isn't a difficult subject at all :)

Like it or not, we're a movement now and all of us represent SaveCOH.  This isn't the COX forums everything posted here has the potential of being quoted by some form of the press.  There's a spotlight on this forum so we need to  act as if the world is watching and behave accordingly. 

I really don't think we're being watched by any press. (If only!) I think NCSoftheaded is probably monitoring, so they can get a heads-up if there's an emulator out there, because nothing says "Our corporate goal is the happiness of all mankind!" - or whatever their offical slogan is - like telling people "I don't want these toys, but you cannot have them either. Just because I don't want you having fun."

But other press, I doubt it.

Some of you seem to have mastered the Vulcan art of Kolinahr, and for that I congratulate you. Me, I am still mad as hell and plan to be for some time to come.

The Fifth Horseman

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2012, 08:08:45 PM »
Oh, we certainly can be furious and still behave. It's just a matter of picking the right place (ie not here) to let it out and the right targets. :)
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DrakeGrimm

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2012, 08:09:39 PM »
Congratulations, Colette. You just pointed out exactly why, even when some of you piss me off, I don't go in for petty cheap shots and personal attacks. Are there plants among us? Almost assuredly. How many of those plants will continue being plants if we refuse to give them ammunition? If we refuse to play their game?

We stay "Blue," and vent our anger and frustration in as constructive a manner as possible, and who knows? Today's planted insurgent might be tomorrow's ally. I know that if I'd been sent to destroy us, I'd be having second thoughts right now based on this community's representation of themselves.
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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2012, 08:19:54 PM »
Some of you seem to have mastered the Vulcan art of Kolinahr, and for that I congratulate you. Me, I am still mad as hell and plan to be for some time to come.
As long as you are clear about your anger, then you are as much in-control as anyone.

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Andy

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2012, 08:28:04 PM »
While I suppose anything is possible, I doubt NCSoft is sending people onto these forums to purposely stir up trouble. The internet is notoriously good at self-combustion with little to no encouragement. ;)

Still, a reminder to be polite and respectful never hurts! We can debate or disagree with each other, but we can do so in a thoughtful and courteous manner. Is it possible to have a guideline for posting? I know the site admins and mods have a lot of work to do for a gig that's entirely volunteer. I always found having a succinct set of suggestions for posting to be useful and could cut down on confusion.

Perfidus

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2012, 09:21:39 PM »
This is perfectly reasonable and indeed I've already trying to carry myself that way, censoring myself when necessary, ignoring things that annoy me. It -is- a difficult thing to talk about, but it's also a necessary one. Thanks Colette.

therain93

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2012, 09:26:13 PM »
While I suppose anything is possible, I doubt NCSoft is sending people onto these forums to purposely stir up trouble. The internet is notoriously good at self-combustion with little to no encouragement. ;)

Still, a reminder to be polite and respectful never hurts! We can debate or disagree with each other, but we can do so in a thoughtful and courteous manner. Is it possible to have a guideline for posting? I know the site admins and mods have a lot of work to do for a gig that's entirely volunteer. I always found having a succinct set of suggestions for posting to be useful and could cut down on confusion.
Perhaps not these forums as they're pretty specialized -- it's the more open ones, like mmorpg.com, where we would try to push our message out that are susceptible to social networking manipulation because the rest of the participants aren't necessarily as informed and, therefore, are more easily swayed by the types of tactics the OP suggests.
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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2012, 10:21:27 PM »
I really don't think we're being watched by any press. (If only!) I think NCSoftheaded is probably monitoring, so they can get a heads-up if there's an emulator out there...

I've pointed this out to a few people privately:  If we really wanted to piss NCsoft off, we wouldn't be working on a City of Heroes server emulator.  We'd be working on a Blade and Soul or Guild Wars 2 server emulator.  I'm just sayin', if this is really a concern, it could be much worse.

Illusionss

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2012, 10:29:31 PM »
...and that would be sheer evil genius. Hit 'em where it would REALLY hurt. Oh dear. Lol.

Omega Mark V

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2012, 12:02:23 AM »
Your post is just fine, Colette.

We all have a reason to play it safe, and to keep vigilant of our adversary, but I think Tony's post (top of this page) sums it up pretty well. They're focused on other games more.
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Surelle

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2012, 12:24:08 AM »
Well, let's face it, these boards have been bombarded with new posters lately (myself included, actually, lol).  So I'm not surprised you might think that, Colette. But part of me doubts NCSoft Korea even cares about EU or NA, to the point where they wouldn't demean themselves by even checking the huge NA/EU gaming websites for NCSoft news, let alone one small NA forum.  But who knows for sure?  It can't hurt to be watchful, just in case.

Surelle

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2012, 12:27:41 AM »
I've pointed this out to a few people privately:  If we really wanted to piss NCsoft off, we wouldn't be working on a City of Heroes server emulator.  We'd be working on a Blade and Soul or Guild Wars 2 server emulator.  I'm just sayin', if this is really a concern, it could be much worse.

Haha.  Wow, this is a most excellent point.  And hey, we're certainly not the only CoH players out there.  It makes you wonder if anybody truly vindictive has already begun such a project.  Let's face it, it probably wouldn't be too difficult to drum up support troops for something like that.

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2012, 01:05:53 AM »
I think you made a good call Colette, a little intelligent caution never hurt anyone.

Valjean

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2012, 01:10:18 AM »
I don't think NCsoft is even aware of this forum, they certainly know almost nothing about the community.

And even if there were a handful of individuals, they've probably either been fired or are too busy trying to keep thir jobs to even think about browsing these forums.

As a company, they're just not that smart.

Aggelakis

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2012, 01:17:17 AM »
The only thing I don't agree with in the OP is bringing up post count. Post count means diddly squat. Two examples from the official boards:

There were some people with 20k or 30k -- I think GG ended up with something ridiculously stupid like 60k posts (full disclosure: I think I ended with about 18k). Almost all of the people with that many posts did not get there by being paragons of intellect and thoughtfulness. There was a lot of +1s and winky faces out there with no content. There were people who lived in Forum Games. (Note: some people legitimately got high post count, but NO ONE got a high post count without occasionally devolving into fluff posts, lulz, +1s, or participating in unicorn behavior [giving or receiving].)

On the other hand, there were some people with post counts in the 100s that I paid attention to each one of their posts that I came across. They almost invariably added to the thread at hand. They nearly always had something thoughtful to say - not necessarily always in support of the 'majority vote'. They weren't there for the lulz or the fluffy stuff. They were there to support their game, their development team, and their community. They just didn't post unless they thought it was important.

Or...they were new. We all of us had low post counts at some point. You cannot haul someone up to the gallows for low post count. The only way you don't get low post count is to post through them.

Quality over quantity any day. Judge a person by what they post, not how many posts they have under their virtual belt. I'm tempted to recommend removing post count display entirely. I don't want the post count unicorns to start trotting that out (see what I did there). You folks have been remarkably good about not bringing post count up.
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JanessaVR

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2012, 01:18:01 AM »
I don't think NCsoft is even aware of this forum, they certainly know almost nothing about the community.

And even if there were a handful of individuals, they've probably either been fired or are too busy trying to keep thir jobs to even think about browsing these forums.

As a company, they're just not that smart.
I would really not count on the incompetence of our enemy as a strategy.  Shortly after the announced shutdown, when we first started protesting, I recall Zwillinger posting "You have their attention.  They are listening."

So even if it is NCLimp, I'm willing to bet that especially after that Korean Times article, they've looked in on us here at least once.

DrakeGrimm

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2012, 01:24:16 AM »
I would really not count on the incompetence of our enemy as a strategy.  Shortly after the announced shutdown, when we first started protesting, I recall Zwillinger posting "You have their attention.  They are listening."

So even if it is NCLimp, I'm willing to bet that especially after that Korean Times article, they've looked in on us here at least once.

Assume your enemy is more intelligent than he appears. If you plan for all possibilities--even if they do not come to pass--and you are almost assured victory.
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JanessaVR

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2012, 01:25:45 AM »
Assume your enemy is more intelligent than he appears. If you plan for all possibilities--even if they do not come to pass--and you are almost assured victory.
Quite, that's what I was trying to stress.

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2012, 01:35:10 AM »
I don't think NCsoft is even aware of this forum, they certainly know almost nothing about the community.

When Tony posted emails of the higher ups here, they asked him to take them down.

They know where we live.
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Codewalker

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2012, 01:45:14 AM »
When Tony posted emails of the higher ups here, they asked him to take them down.

They know where we live.

He also posted them on the official forums (and was sure that Zwillinger would have to ban him as a result).

Chances are that when they started getting emails, they told some subordinate to "find the leak", who delegated it to someone at NC Interactive, who called someone like Andy Belford or Jessie, who reluctantly had to tell them it was Tony who posted it. I doubt the higher ups even looked at the CoH forums, much less these.

Plus we've been blocking their corporate IPs at the firewall since the shutdown, so they'd have to do it from home or get their PR firm minions to do it for them.

Oops did I say that last part out loud.

Perfidus

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2012, 01:47:04 AM »
Clever, Codewalker. Very clever.

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2012, 01:51:40 AM »
I agree with the OP and have in fact re-evaluated some of my recent discussions and decisions.

Atlantea

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2012, 01:59:54 AM »
Oh deftly played indeed, Codewalker!


DrakeGrimm

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2012, 02:02:12 AM »
Hey Codewalker?


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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2012, 03:25:40 AM »
Nice, Codewalker.  Very nice indeed!

For the record, I am not a plant.  Even if I say something in their favor (like the recent post in the PTSD thread), I'm not NCSoft's lackey.    And I don't regret anything I've said.... well, maybe one or two things, but not in regards to NCSoft.  It's simple for me:

They offer nothing else I want.  I only want CoH.  I also will do my part to make sure they don't earn another dime from me, nor will Nexon, because of their collectively bad handling of the desire to no longer run the CoH servers and accounts.  I won't do anything bad, just definitely not in their favor, and if anyone asks me about playing something they offer, I'll tell them "You sure you wanna go through with that?" and explain myself.

And yeah, I sent an email to the head honchos back when.  Made sense to me, bad or not, I did it.  It was a little long, but definitely quickly readable, sensible, even contrite and pleasant.  And said, pretty much, what I just pointed out above: We're done here, you and me, NCSoft.  Sorry, that's all there is to it.

No hate.  Just distrust, non-understanding, and no desire to play with them ever again.  That's it.

If that makes me a marked person in NCSoft's eyes... meh.  What are they gonna do, not let me play?  Right.

dwturducken

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2012, 03:30:15 AM »
Ooo-oo-oo! Can I be broccoli? That's a plant, right?
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Colette

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2012, 03:35:37 AM »
Hi all.

"Plus we've been blocking [NCSoft's] corporate IPs at the firewall since the shutdown."

:: HUGS Codewalker! :: That alone makes me feel soooo much better!

Okay, I wanna thank you for letting me get that off'a my back. I feel a whole lot better now. Glad y'all don't think I'm a nutcase... paranoia is NOT a good feeling. Brr!

And to a certain Frog, I rather owe you for bringing something I wasn't fully conscious of to a head. I plead temporary insanity.

KELP! Folks, please welcome Kelp Plankton, a good friend of mine from the game.

Illusionss, my head agrees with you, my gut says otherwise. I hope that makes sense?

Since I've made my point, I think we can move on. I have full confidence in our mods like Aggelakis to squealch the motiveless malignancy of the Common Internet unicorn. Now we've got our collective intelligence watching for the UNcommon one, I feel a heckuva lot safer.

One last reminder since I have everyone here. The shutdown notice had one word that I want everyone to heed. "Permanently." At the time of the shutdown, NCSoft had no intention of ever allowing anybody into Atlas Park again, ever! So if we are to change that, we have to work together and put up with each other.

Stay focused, stay frosty.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 03:41:36 AM by Colette »

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2012, 04:07:16 AM »
I'm saying that the people running NCSoftheaded don't give a damn whether we do or not. Its very simple: they just don't care. We are nothing to them. I'm not even sure they view us as human beings with feelings. In fact, I'm pretty sure they dont.

I'm saying that I care, and that a lot of other people care, and that it doesnt hurt to attempt to be sensitive to the perceptions that normal people will have. NCSoft might not care about some of us gamers standing up, but it would care if a united front (or cracked back, as implied by another thread...) of gamers came together in a global way. I'm not saying I think it would be easy, or perhapos even doable to get the Korean gaming public on our side..

But I know that I personally want less to do when people don't care. And while I'm not saying you, or anyone else, has purposefully perpetuated such beliefs publicly, seeming to not care about the notion doesnt help us either.
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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2012, 05:52:59 AM »
And to a certain Frog, I rather owe you for bringing something I wasn't fully conscious of to a head. I plead temporary insanity.

I'm glad it worked itself out. And I can relate. I miss our City too.

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2012, 08:53:53 AM »
The vitriol and hatred. NCsoft made a boneheaded move, yes. Then they tried to cover it up by not responding. Then they tried to placate us with hollow words. None of that indicates any kind of feeling either way. Claiming that people don't care is overstepping your bounds. You have no idea if they do or do not. Spewing hate like this is not conducive to any of the efforts of the SaveCoH movement.

Personally, I find a no response worse than a negative response.

This is making a mountain out of a molehill. We all know what NCSoft did, now I am doing my part on a grass roots level to give them negative PR. That's all the needs to be said.

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2012, 09:00:19 AM »
Personally, I find a no response worse than a negative response.

This is making a mountain out of a molehill. We all know what NCSoft did, now I am doing my part on a grass roots level to give them negative PR. That's all the needs to be said.

Are you looking for City of Heroes to be brought back to life or for a revenge?

Mistress Urd

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2012, 09:02:59 AM »
I'm pretty sure just about everyone here would love for CoH to come back.

Little Green Frog

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2012, 09:04:26 AM »
I'm pretty sure just about everyone here would love for CoH to come back.

Agreed. But being bent on hurting NCsoft may actually make that task much more difficult.

Mistress Urd

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2012, 09:14:52 AM »
Agreed. But being bent on hurting NCsoft may actually make that task much more difficult.

Well if NCSoft starts making boatloads of money from Blade and Soul then its more likely that CoH is coming back? This is getting to be too much of a thread derail, start a new topic LGF. (Thread derails are why forums are forums)

Colette

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2012, 09:21:22 AM »
"...being bent on hurting NCsoft may actually make that task much more difficult."
 
The decision to go from talking nicely to NCSoft, to attacking NCSoft, was a critical moment. We made that choice when NCSoft failed to give us any answer besides what amounted to, "game's closing. Go away." At that point, resentment boiled over. I don't think any of us could have stopped it.

We have crossed the Rubicon. We have placed ourselves in an adversarial relationship, and there's no turning back. Right now we're using a carrot-and-stick approach. "Team Wildcard" is coaxing other companies to tender attractive offers, while the rest of us hold NCSoft's feet to the fire, kick up a storm of bad press, show 'em that we're gonna dog 'em until they relent.

I believe that's a sound approach, especially since we have so few tools at our command. Of course, better ideas are always welcome.

The question here, seems to me, is how the stick gets applied. Remember, it was only two weeks ago; many of us haven't been in our right minds. Our heads are cooler now.

We need to make sure our anti-NCSoft campaign is targeted like a laser, so it targets only NCSoft, but in ways that don't cast us in an unflattering light. Some ideas will be used, others discarded.

But... I think there is also such a thing as erring too much on the side of caution. I'm sure we'll be fine so long as we apply our collective intelligence and judgment.

"...now I am doing my part on a grass roots level to give them negative PR. That's all the needs to be said."

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 09:29:03 AM by Colette »

healix

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2012, 09:34:32 AM »
I am angry that the City was shut down..and sad, of course. NCSoft is a business, and as such, they do what they need to in order stay there. All businesses make bad decisions at times, and of course I think this is one of them. It wouldn't matter if NCSoft was a 100% American run comany...I'd feel the same way.
If I make silly memes and pictures it's only to creatively vent within this community, and perhaps make some folks laugh. Behind that company are fellow humans with the same struggles that we go through...it makes no sense to have any hatred toward them.  I am targeting the 'corporate image'.
My MAIN objectitive is to get our City back, not to destroy or bash others. Colette was so right to bring all these things forward. Am I glad when the stocks go down? Only if it helps our cause, not because I want to see a company fail and people lose jobs. We need to fight to save or game, not destroy its creators.
Ghandi said, "A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history."
Let's do this right.
Listen to the 'mustn'ts'. Listen to the 'don'ts'. Listen to the 'shouldn'ts', the 'impossibles', the 'won'ts'. Listen to the 'you'll never haves', then listen close to me... Anything can happen . Anything can be.

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #49 on: December 14, 2012, 11:34:00 AM »
I'm merely reminding, frequently, the users of other NCSoft games that what happened to us can happen to them, at any moment, and with no warning.

I consider that a public service.

I also consider informing parental groups that Blade and Soul is probably not what they want their teenage sons looking at to be a public service, and giving them graphic examples.

I consider informing feminist groups that Blade and Soul contributes to the objectification of women is a public service.

Those are my opinions, and I believe they are valid.
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

healix

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #50 on: December 14, 2012, 11:52:31 AM »
VV, that information is valuable...ignorance is NOT bliss. How can anyone make the best decision on something without all the information they can get? No matter how flat a piece of paper is, it still has 2 sides.

Listen to the 'mustn'ts'. Listen to the 'don'ts'. Listen to the 'shouldn'ts', the 'impossibles', the 'won'ts'. Listen to the 'you'll never haves', then listen close to me... Anything can happen . Anything can be.

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #51 on: December 14, 2012, 01:53:13 PM »
Quote
"With the closure of popular MMOs like Star Wars Galaxies, City of Heroes and more, some players are a bit irritated at the genre as a whole."

 

Isn't this an overstatement? Weren't the subscribers for these games in the tens, not hundreds, of thousands by the time they closed? If these games were truly popular, wouldn't they still be around and making money for their owners?

Ignorant know it alls like this annoy the hell out of me.

I'm sorry, this was supposed to be posted in the massively how to save an mmo thread. Can someone move it?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 02:08:02 PM by Noyjitat »

Segev

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #52 on: December 14, 2012, 02:06:03 PM »
And that how the world turns. As infuriating as it may be, they have no obligation to care for us. They are a business. They care about earning money, not preserving communities. Unless the latter leads to the former.
Missing Worlds Media is betting the Phoenix Project and a great deal of time, effort, and not-insigificant money on the idea that the latter can lead to the former, with hopes that in so doing it will naturally support the latter for a long time hence.

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #53 on: December 14, 2012, 02:29:11 PM »
Are you looking for City of Heroes to be brought back to life or for a revenge?

If I can't get the one, I'm damned sure going to get the other.
G

Victoria Victrix

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #54 on: December 14, 2012, 02:31:05 PM »
If I can't get the one, I'm damned sure going to get the other.
G

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Illusionss

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #55 on: December 14, 2012, 02:52:51 PM »
The vitriol and hatred. NCsoft made a boneheaded move, yes. Then they tried to cover it up by not responding. Then they tried to placate us with hollow words. None of that indicates any kind of feeling either way. Claiming that people don't care is overstepping your bounds. You have no idea if they do or do not. Spewing hate like this is not conducive to any of the efforts of the SaveCoH movement.

Stating that NCSoft has no care for us, either personally or as a group of subscribers, is hardly "spewing hate;" the mere idea is just ridiculously over the top. And actually, I DO have proof that they do not care: look at their behavior from the announcement onward, up until right now. Do YOU see evidence of caring? I sure don't. If I am wrong, please point me to the evidence. I would love to be wrong.

I'm actually pretty vitriolic right now. Yup. Truth. NCSoftheaded took from me - and from us all - characters that we love, and that were worth a considerable amount of real-world cash. Damn straight I am mad. If being mad about that makes me wrong, I don't wanna be right.

If you think sitting on your hands with duct-tape across your mouth re NCSoftheaded is going to get you anything, good luck with that strategy. For real. And with that I really am going to take a break.

johnrobey

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #56 on: December 14, 2012, 03:39:26 PM »
As usual, Colette, I like what you and others had to say and how you said it.  +1. 
"We must be the change we wish to see in the world." -- Mahatma Gandhi         "In every generation there has to be some fool who will speak the truth as he sees it." -- Boris Pasternak
"Where They Have Burned Books They Will End In Burning Human Beings" -- Heinrich Heine

JaguarX

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #57 on: December 14, 2012, 03:58:59 PM »
Yes, I understand many people are angry and are displaying it. To me, it's just something many humans do and is usually relatively harmless with their specific goal in mind. Some people just want to hurt NCSoft by any means at all costs, so being explosive and rabid can get the job done. Others want to try to convince, and some people believe being negative is the best way to get this goal done and other believe remaining civil is the best way. Either way may get some sort of resort. Other beleive putting on a united front image and best behavior is the best way and that can bea means to reach the goal. The problem is that there isnt much of a united goal here, besides bring COX back. It takes more than a united goal to be united. Hell, out of the countries i nthe world, their goal is world peace but yet there is still wars because the method is not united and thus world peace will never be obtained because some countried beleieve that world peace can only be obtained through iron fist dictatorships while others believe that liberty is the key, while others beleive that a mixture of the two is the way, while others still beleive anachy is the way. So in the end, the different methods of reaching that goal doesnt personally bother me. To each his/her own or how ever that saying goes.

Edit: Just general nukage since most of what was here now doesn't have context. --TonyV
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 04:55:00 AM by TonyV »

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #58 on: December 14, 2012, 05:09:29 PM »
If I can't get the one, I'm damned sure going to get the other.
G

"Some men just want to watch the world burn." Er, wait... I mean: "We are heroes. This is what we do."

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #59 on: December 14, 2012, 07:17:48 PM »
This is very wise. In combat one of the ways to help ensure victory for yourself is to make your enemy blind with rage. A person raging swings wild with no fore thought. I am also sure that they are watching this web site. So do be careful friend we are a family of HEROES lets continue this like heros with grace and dignity.

Edit: I've nuked a bunch of posts and honestly don't know what this comment is in reference to.  Just please be aware that it is not a direct response to the comment above it, as the context has likely been lost or at least changed. --TonyV
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 05:07:50 AM by TonyV »

ukaserex

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #60 on: December 15, 2012, 01:27:29 AM »
Some of you know me in game, some of you may know me from the forums and some of you may not have a clue as to what a Ukase is, let alone how to pronounce it. If you know me, then you know that in the coh forums, I was never above posting my opinion just to see what the results would be. As a leader on Liberty, I was nothing if not passionate. (or the Gordon Ramsay of iTrials, take your pick, lol )
When Tony V and a couple others (Aggelakis maybe <shrug>) made a point for all of us to behave lest we paint ourselves collectively in a bad light, I thought to myself that it was good advice for more than just internet forums.

Early this morning, some lunatic shot down 20 of our children and 6 other adults. This is a heavy loss for anyone that knows those people, and yes, for the rest of us that live in this country. We have less than 2 weeks before Christmas. What better time than now to more thoughtful about what we say and write? Not just here in these forums, but everywhere we speak and write. Particularly in writing, many things get lost. Pronunciation, intonation and pitch. Sarcasm can easily be lost.
For example, from this point forward, I'm sounding just like John Cleese, but none of you have a clue that I'm writing with a distinctive British accent.

It's my challenge to all of you that may be inclined to ridicule or bash anyone or any group of people to rethink your comments before you speak or write them. I heartily recommend using emoticons to ease the sting of jokes and such. Particularly in the forums, there's no telling what is going on with the others who come across your words.

Remember to celebrate with your friends and family; tomorrow is not promised to us. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to everyone.
Those who have no idea what they are doing genuinely have no idea that they don't know what they're doing. - John Cleese

JaguarX

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #61 on: December 15, 2012, 01:29:55 AM »
Some of you know me in game, some of you may know me from the forums and some of you may not have a clue as to what a Ukase is, let alone how to pronounce it. If you know me, then you know that in the coh forums, I was never above posting my opinion just to see what the results would be. As a leader on Liberty, I was nothing if not passionate. (or the Gordon Ramsay of iTrials, take your pick, lol )
When Tony V and a couple others (Aggelakis maybe <shrug>) made a point for all of us to behave lest we paint ourselves collectively in a bad light, I thought to myself that it was good advice for more than just internet forums.

Early this morning, some lunatic shot down 20 of our children and 6 other adults. This is a heavy loss for anyone that knows those people, and yes, for the rest of us that live in this country. We have less than 2 weeks before Christmas. What better time than now to more thoughtful about what we say and write? Not just here in these forums, but everywhere we speak and write. Particularly in writing, many things get lost. Pronunciation, intonation and pitch. Sarcasm can easily be lost.
For example, from this point forward, I'm sounding just like John Cleese, but none of you have a clue that I'm writing with a distinctive British accent.

It's my challenge to all of you that may be inclined to ridicule or bash anyone or any group of people to rethink your comments before you speak or write them. I heartily recommend using emoticons to ease the sting of jokes and such. Particularly in the forums, there's no telling what is going on with the others who come across your words.

Remember to celebrate with your friends and family; tomorrow is not promised to us. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to everyone.
indeed.

healix

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #62 on: December 15, 2012, 03:04:31 AM »
ukasereex, your words ring so true. Thank you for lowering the volume on some of the unneeded noise. With posted words, you can't see the poster's face to see a smile, a tear, or hear a laugh.
Listen to the 'mustn'ts'. Listen to the 'don'ts'. Listen to the 'shouldn'ts', the 'impossibles', the 'won'ts'. Listen to the 'you'll never haves', then listen close to me... Anything can happen . Anything can be.

Aggelakis

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #63 on: December 15, 2012, 03:06:47 AM »
Be nice to each other. Stop accusing each other of racism, stop trying to lay blame where none is warranted. If you have something hateful or mean to say, leave it in your reply window for a while; if when you re-read it you think it is appropriate, then post it. Temper your tone. Being spiteful, being hateful, being confrontational does not help the SaveCoH movement and does not show a united front and does not bolster our community. Each meanspirited word brings the speaker and the listener down.

It would be nice to feel that we are a better world, a world of more compassion and a world of more humanity, and to believe in the basic goodness of man.
Barbara Walters

Everyone in this world is somehow connected. So why not just be nice to everybody.

Richard Simmons

Maybe you don't like your job, maybe you didn't get enough sleep, well nobody likes their job, nobody got enough sleep. Maybe you just had the worst day of your life, but you know, there's no escape, there's no excuse, so just suck up and be nice.
Ani DiFranco

You just try to be nice to everybody and treat them all the same. Treat them how you would want to be treated.

Tim Tebow

Be nice to each other. You can make a whole day a different day for everybody.
Richard Dawson

I think that the basic philosophy was very good. It was just be nice to each other, and don't step on other people's toes and infringe on their freedom.
Kevin Ayers

We've got to learn hard things in our lifetime, but it's love that gives you the strength. It's being nice to people and having a lot of fun and laughing harder than anything, hopefully every single day of your life.
Drew Barrymore

Treat people as if they were what they ought to be, and you help them to become what they are capable of being.
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

We should be too big to take offense and too noble to give it.
Abraham Lincoln
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healix

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #64 on: December 15, 2012, 03:12:17 AM »
Treat people with politeness, even those who are rude to you -- not because they are nice, but because you are.
Listen to the 'mustn'ts'. Listen to the 'don'ts'. Listen to the 'shouldn'ts', the 'impossibles', the 'won'ts'. Listen to the 'you'll never haves', then listen close to me... Anything can happen . Anything can be.

TonyV

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #65 on: December 15, 2012, 04:31:17 AM »
*wields modhammer...  Pay no attention to me, I'm just going to be sorting out and deleting a bunch of stuff from this thread for the next few minutes...

And what Agge said.  Knock it off.  If I see any more accusations of racism (or racism, for that matter) being bandied around, I'm going to be unhappy.  If you have a problem with someone's post, report it, and a moderator will take a look at it.  And if you get modded, don't get all mad.  Things have clearly gone too far, and I'm simply reducing the noise level in here.

There, done!  I've nuked around two and a half pages worth of posts.  Again, if your post got nuked it's not because I hate you or you're in any imminent danger of getting banned, it's probably because since a bunch of others were nuked above it, it's now out of context.

So let me quickly summarize the situation.  Some people think that some other people have been posting things that are racist.  Fair enough; I've seen posts that I feel are racist, and I take appropriate action when I think someone's gone over the line.  Other people think that some people are too sensitive and don't want this forum to become a PC nightmare.  Again, fair enough, which is why we don't moderate every post that gets reported if we feel that it's not really skirting the line of racism.  We try to strike a fair balance between letting people have open discussions and not offending the crap out of people, and in my opinion, our moderators do a pretty durn good job.

Please be aware that sometimes people here will say stuff that rubs you the wrong way.  Please also be aware that there are lines you shouldn't cross, that we are not SomethingAwful or 4chan where just about anything goes.  No one person here on these forums speaks for the entire community or the Titan Network, and I frequently personally disagree with posters but almost never moderate their posts (unless something like...this...happens).  I'm not worried about someone judging SaveCoH or the Titan Network or our community because someone sees a post that someone might construe as vindictive, racist, or otherwise negative, because that would put the unreasonable onus on us to only allow posts that fit in our world view, which is most emphatically not one of our objectives.

And I'll remind everyone yet again that we're all on the same team here, and just like every good team, we have multiple goals and multiple strategies in play to achieve those goals.  You don't have to agree with all of them, and no one (at least, that I know of) is asking for anyone to be a mindless cheerleader for everything that gets put forward here.  But please, I highly encourage you to focus on supporting actions and attitudes that you find favorable instead of trying to tear down actions and attitudes you find unfavorable.  Not only will it be more effective, but you're very unlikely to change anyone's mind who is set in their ways.

All of that having been said, I'll remind everyone again that if you see a post you find objectionable enough that you think it hurts our image or is offensive or dangerous, report it.  Even if we don't act on it, it will make our radar to see patterns and trends and take action later if necessary.  But also, keep in mind that "I don't agree with this" isn't really a good reason to report posts.  That patterns and trends thing can work against you if you convey the impression that you're oversensitive, so for minor stuff, please just let it go, as most of our moderators do have day jobs and stay pretty busy on other CoH-related stuff as well.

Okay, unlocking the thread now, let's see how well this works...
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 06:50:24 AM by TonyV »

Taceus Jiwede

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #66 on: December 15, 2012, 05:46:02 AM »
I'm saying that I care, and that a lot of other people care, and that it doesnt hurt to attempt to be sensitive to the perceptions that normal people will have. NCSoft might not care about some of us gamers standing up, but it would care if a united front (or cracked back, as implied by another thread...) of gamers came together in a global way. I'm not saying I think it would be easy, or perhapos even doable to get the Korean gaming public on our side..

But I know that I personally want less to do when people don't care. And while I'm not saying you, or anyone else, has purposefully perpetuated such beliefs publicly, seeming to not care about the notion doesnt help us either.

Evil triumphs when good men are apathetic :)  Sorry I just felt that quote fit what you were saying.

DrakeGrimm

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #67 on: December 15, 2012, 06:21:56 AM »
DARN YOU TONY! ABUSING YOUR POWER AGAIN! :P

Thanks for stepping in and cleaning up a little. Behold, the horrible truth revealed: forum admins are basically just the janitorial staff! :O
We are the crazy ones, the mavericks, the dreamers, the forgotten sons. We color outside the lines for fun. We are the crazy ones! - "The Crazy Ones," Stellar Revival

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Perfidus

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #68 on: December 15, 2012, 06:34:05 AM »
I applaud you doing this, Tony. But more than that, I applaud that you didn't just delete things and try to pretend it never happened. You did the right thing, acknowledged it, and helpfully explained how we should all go on from here. Kudos.

JaguarX

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #69 on: December 15, 2012, 06:55:37 AM »
Evil triumphs when good men are apathetic.

Yep.

Quinch

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #70 on: December 15, 2012, 02:16:55 PM »
Evil triumphs when good men are apathetic :)  Sorry I just felt that quote fit what you were saying.

[Help] Light Babe: All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to say "Hey, it's a business."

dwturducken

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #71 on: December 15, 2012, 05:28:56 PM »
I'm not going back thru to see what got struck, because I have a pretty fair idea. I just wish that, A: it hadn't been necessary, and B: Tony would have left the line about being mad with power (or something like that). It was pretty funny and a nice Alladin reference.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

healix

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #72 on: December 16, 2012, 04:28:11 PM »
Even Bill and Ted (who had the combined brain capacity of a small soapdish) got this right...

Listen to the 'mustn'ts'. Listen to the 'don'ts'. Listen to the 'shouldn'ts', the 'impossibles', the 'won'ts'. Listen to the 'you'll never haves', then listen close to me... Anything can happen . Anything can be.

houtex

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #73 on: December 17, 2012, 03:27:03 AM »
^  **I** wanted to post that, healix, you so and so!

Oh, wait.  My bad, supposed to be excellent to ya... so...

..healix, you *excellent* so and so!  :D

/If only the people of the world could just take this one line from that movie and excecute it forthwith and with vigor.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #74 on: December 17, 2012, 03:37:26 AM »
If I were still in school I think I could probably get a good long paper out of how Bill and Ted are the modern incarnations of Parsifal, the "Perfect Fool," who manages to see clearly through all the obfuscation that more sophisticated people want to place between common man and the truth.
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Knight Light

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #75 on: December 17, 2012, 02:15:14 PM »
[Help] Light Babe: All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to say "Hey, it's a business."

Being that my post count is, with this, only up to 3; the very last things I expected to find in this thread were my own words.

Thank you, Quinch. I wasn't sure anyone was listening to me all those nights I tried to keep morale up.

I miss being Light Babe.

This has made my day a little better. Thank you.

Quinch

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Re: A Very Difficult Subject to Talk About
« Reply #76 on: December 17, 2012, 02:20:22 PM »
Heh, my pleasure.

[Help] Light Babe: All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to say "Hey, it's a business."
[Help] Light Babe: sleep well
[Help] Quinch Rebooted: Light, I'm so going to quote that.
[Help] Light Babe: =oP