Author Topic: Additional NCsoft layoffs  (Read 7872 times)

therain93

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Additional NCsoft layoffs
« on: December 05, 2012, 03:19:12 AM »
Apparently the Seattle Office was next on the list --- http://www.vg247.com/2012/12/04/ncsoft-issues-lay-offs-at-seattle-office-as-part-of-realignment/
Here's some irony:  "It [Ncsoft] has become increasingly reliant on western markets,..."   Um, so why did you kill our game?
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Kaiser Tarantula

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2012, 03:20:49 AM »
The original PCGamer article's already been posted in this thread.

therain93

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2012, 03:24:02 AM »
The original PCGamer article's already been posted in this thread.
Oops, sorry about that!
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The Fifth Horseman

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2012, 09:06:08 AM »
CoH was between 30 and 50 percent of their Western market.
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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2012, 09:20:43 AM »
That's what gets me.  When people (and by "people", I mean "trolls") have been saying "Well, CoH was only 2% of their revenue, so of course they closed it", that's true when you're talking about worldwide, but it was up to 50% of their revenue in the West.

So the first step of their expansion into the West is killing one of their most popular games in the West?  It makes no sense.  None of this makes any sense.

It's petty of me, but I'm quite glad to see an independent (Korean?) analyst confirm that the game was making money and thrilled to watch their stocks continue to tumble.  I have not been a happy man these past few months.

Megajoule

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2012, 10:12:21 AM »
I don't think they were expanding, I think they (or some portion of their leadership) were/are trying to get out of the West, which has never been as profitable for them as their home market.

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2012, 04:25:24 PM »
I think the marketing firm is either drunk, or has writers block.   Maybe they just aren't being consulted?   Maybe THEY got let go?   They keep using the same language like we don't know what it actually means now.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2012, 01:53:24 AM »
I don't think they were expanding, I think they (or some portion of their leadership) were/are trying to get out of the West, which has never been as profitable for them as their home market.

On the very day on which they closed CoH NCSoft issued a press release/interview in which they lauded Tits and Bits and waxed vocal on how they intended to use it to expand into the Western market.

Clearly this has changed, but it doesn't negate the fact that three months ago their tune was piped to the call of Western expansion.
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DrakeGrimm

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2012, 02:05:24 AM »
They're starting to realize they've poisoned the well. What they don't realize is that the poisoned waters run further than they thought.
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Megajoule

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2012, 07:32:09 AM »
On the very day on which they closed CoH NCSoft issued a press release/interview in which they lauded Tits and Bits and waxed vocal on how they intended to use it to expand into the Western market.

Clearly this has changed, but it doesn't negate the fact that three months ago their tune was piped to the call of Western expansion.
No disrespect meant to you, of course, but: 
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NecrotechMaster

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2012, 08:01:55 AM »
They're starting to realize they've poisoned the well. What they don't realize is that the poisoned waters run further than they thought.

i think this is whats happening

and to add to that, the answer to their poisoned waters problem is as simple as selling the IP, but they are too blind to see it

Zolgar

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2012, 09:35:14 AM »
i think this is whats happening

and to add to that, the answer to their poisoned waters problem is as simple as selling the IP, but they are too blind to see it

I don't think it's that simple anymore.
Even if they sold the IP. Even if CoH were to be restarted in a month like nothing ever happened, under new ownership..

They would STILL have that black spot. Oh, we wouldn't hold as much of a grudge.. but remember, we have spent the last 3 months showing the world that NCSoft is the MMO Killer, responsible for 1/3rd of all major MMOs shut down. We have spent the last 3 months showing the world that this company cannot be trusted and has no real regard for the feelings of it's customers, at least not its Western market customers.

It will take them many years to clean the smudge off of their record. >.>

Perfidus

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2012, 09:39:15 AM »
Essentially, that, Zolgar. They can do the right thing and sell their IP. But it'll not fix all the damage done to them, be it what they did to themselves, or what we did to them.

JaguarX

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2012, 10:06:36 AM »
Yep but at the same time though, I doubt even if they did sell the IP that all of a sudden their western reputation will go back to normal and they probably know this.

Right now they can decide to whether to try to invest and rebuild their western reputation or focus on their home market and hope for the best. With loss of revenue and stock prices dropping, I think the first casualties will be their western gaming market and any game they release here will be merely a ported version of what is hot in Asia so that if the title do not pick up steam here, they can simply cut it off in the west while still making tons off of it at home. 

I just thought, if I was an international corporation and realized that a large portion of a market when down the toilet over decision, a stupid decision it seems, then would I try to spend millions trying to rebuild that reputation or would I cut my losses here and try to make it up in an area that is profitable, on the home front?

Even if they turned COX back on as if nothing happened, I think the damage is done and COX probably would be even less profitable if profitable at all under them and the rest of their western game will suffer and their stocks probably will continue to slide downward. Whoever made the shutdown decision really put NCSoft between a rock and a hardplace in their western market. If they do nothing, their reputation will surely remain ruined. If they dump millions into trying to improve that reputation, it still will remain just as tarnished. As many has said, they wouldnt go back to COX if it remained under NCSoft hands. So what is it that they are supposed to do? My view may be too simplistic, given that I'm not the leader of a corporation of that size.

And layoffs, given their past actions, I mean even prior to COX closing, when money gets tight or they lose money, NCSoft have been known here and in Asia to do layoffs, usually starting with their overseas operations first aka Europe and America. While I too want NCSoft to see the effects of their error, I dont want it to be the cause of other people losing their jobs anymore than I liked the fact that 80 people tied to Paragon Studios and COX was laid off.

HarvesterOfEyes

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2012, 06:08:51 PM »
I agree that NCSoft re-starting CoH now doesn't do much for them. Shutting down a profitable entity is already a loss, but I don't believe they calculated the destructive effect on their reputation in their cost/benefit analysis. It reminds me very much of "United Breaks Guitars". One $3500 guitar cost them millions before it was over (180 million in market cap but I don't have an estimate of actual revenue lost).

All along however, the way NCSoft  could recoup anything of the value in IP was to sell CoH and stop saying things that are obviously not true. It's still the clearest route to recovery for them.

It's the first rule of holes: stop digging.

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2012, 06:29:46 PM »
You know, at this point, I could really care less. As far as I'm concerned, every day that passes without a peep from NCSoft is fuel to the fire. They already know this, everybody knows this. But nobody with the power to do anything wants to because of the way the business world works. If this campaign makes somebody somewhere think twice about using such a strategy again, I'm all for it, even if it doesn't involve CoH.

I could also care less at this point if NCSoft sees the damage as irreversible, because if it continues, then they'll probably have to make sales of dead IP's, otherwise people will see them for what they are. I see NCSoft as a selfish child in a corner holding the old ball they took away from everybody - who continues to stand there with his back turned to the group as they play with a new, shinier ball for no reason other than to refuse to admit they might've been wrong.

Even if they do sell CoH, my opinion of NCSoft will never change, at least not until major changes take place and the leadership is replaced by competent individuals. This would take years and years. I stopped playing EA games after their lack of support for dealing with hackers in Battlefield 2, only to carefully consider many years later, Battlefield 3, which turned out to be a mistake (same problem, 10x worse, hell even one of their moderators was fired for hacking in the game). So never again will EA get a penny from me. 

Should CoH be handed off to a respectable caretaker within the next year and a half, the only reason I would be happy is to see it out of their hands. Their company can burn in a fire as far as I'm concerned.

srmalloy

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2012, 09:16:01 PM »
I just thought, if I was an international corporation and realized that a large portion of a market when down the toilet over decision, a stupid decision it seems, then would I try to spend millions trying to rebuild that reputation or would I cut my losses here and try to make it up in an area that is profitable, on the home front?

You forget that this isn't a Western company. NCSoft executives have already gone on public record about how they're going to make NCSoft a major player in the world MMO market. They shut down City of Heroes because its continuing success was destroying their image by making their bringing one grindfest flop after another to the Western market look like incompetence on their part. We didn't react like obedient, deferent subordinates and raised an immense stink about it, a stink that is now spreading in Korea. Their reputation in the Western market is down the tubes, and spilling back onto the management in Korea. If NCSoft just pulls out of the Western market, it makes the executives lose major face -- having to cancel their announced plans because their ill-conceived action in canceling CoH ruined their corporate image in the market they wanted to expand into (failure, failure, failure); if the NCSoft executives want to preserve their face, they have to try to repair their image in the US market. The other way out for the executives would be to have someone take official responsibility for the decisions that raised us up against NCSoft and resign, taking the failure with them, but that still leaves NCSoft having screwed itself out of the Western market and looking at having to wait until the stink dies down and people forget about the whole thing before they try to expand back into the Western market.

JaguarX

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2012, 10:49:21 PM »
You forget that this isn't a Western company. NCSoft executives have already gone on public record about how they're going to make NCSoft a major player in the world MMO market. They shut down City of Heroes because its continuing success was destroying their image by making their bringing one grindfest flop after another to the Western market look like incompetence on their part. We didn't react like obedient, deferent subordinates and raised an immense stink about it, a stink that is now spreading in Korea. Their reputation in the Western market is down the tubes, and spilling back onto the management in Korea. If NCSoft just pulls out of the Western market, it makes the executives lose major face -- having to cancel their announced plans because their ill-conceived action in canceling CoH ruined their corporate image in the market they wanted to expand into (failure, failure, failure); if the NCSoft executives want to preserve their face, they have to try to repair their image in the US market. The other way out for the executives would be to have someone take official responsibility for the decisions that raised us up against NCSoft and resign, taking the failure with them, but that still leaves NCSoft having screwed itself out of the Western market and looking at having to wait until the stink dies down and people forget about the whole thing before they try to expand back into the Western market.

And that is the million dollar question. How can they repair their reputation and or how long will it take for this "stink" to actually die down if ever? If they take an official stand and say they boloed, then it wont help their reputation besides telling us what we already know. If thye remain silent and stick to their decision, the end result will remain the same. I guess the better question is What will take to repair that reputation? As it stands now, even without pulling out of the western market, many view them as incompetent in the western market as is. While the stink is spreading to Korea in the end, how much of an effect it will have remains to be seen overall over there. Remember that COX failed in the Asian market anyways and news about them killing it off may not have much effect as it did here to their reputation. Just like many of their grindfests that failed here, are actually very popular in Asia and I'm sure if any of those games closed down, no one really missed or have viewed NCSoft in much of a negative light when they closed down their grindfest here but when they closed down a popular western game, it seemed to have caused much outrage.

Someone mentioned that NCSoft is like a kid holding an old ball while others are playing with new shiny balls, expect it seems that we still want to play with that hold ball that NCSoft is holding. The problem still remains that even if that kid wisen up and rejoin the group, that kid probably wont be welcomed back with open arms and even less other kids interested in that old ball now as long as they hold sway over it.

If they are truely trying to become a world wide game creator, then they should avoid decisions like thye made with COX that is one thing that is for sure or they will end up pigeon holing themselves to the Asian market by choice or by the resort of trying to survive.


I guess with their silence, they are trying to just wait until it dies down and probably plan on releasing the generic "we will consider it" statements to keep a foot in the door in the mean time.

Looks like in this case only thing to repair that reputation that have been recently and probably should of been have been gained is time.

On the otherhand, what exactly is our ultimate primary goal? To run them out of the western market by ensuring their reputation is so tarnished that they wont make much anytime in the future? Or to merely to show them that they made a mistake and can come back? Or is it to wish and attempt to destroy them world wide and watch them crumble into ruins? Or are we at the point where it doesnt even matter what they do as all we want to do is watch them burn? Or are we willing to forgive them or what?

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2012, 12:05:05 AM »
Actually, NCSoft is more like a kid holding a great big bag of salty plum candy.  Now, all the Korean kids love salty plum candy, so NCSoft assumes that every kid will want his salty plum candy.  But when the Western kids on the playground spit it out and say "ew!" and walk away, instead of looking for a big bag of Western style candy, NCSoft takes away everyone else's Western-style candy, hires bullies to keep Western-style candy out of the playground, and proceeds to stand on a soapbox and tell all the other kids that they should just give up their candy and accept the superior salty-plum candy.

And NCSoft is then surprised when the other kids gang up and take out the bullies and tell NCSoft where they can shove their salty-plums and how high.
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Perfidus

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2012, 12:08:37 AM »
Someone mentioned that NCSoft is like a kid holding an old ball while others are playing with new shiny balls, expect it seems that we still want to play with that hold ball that NCSoft is holding.

Let us play with our balls, NCSoft! (Feel free to mod this comment away, I just couldn't help myself. Not trying to offend anyone.)

JaguarX

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2012, 02:14:26 PM »
Actually, NCSoft is more like a kid holding a great big bag of salty plum candy.  Now, all the Korean kids love salty plum candy, so NCSoft assumes that every kid will want his salty plum candy.  But when the Western kids on the playground spit it out and say "ew!" and walk away, instead of looking for a big bag of Western style candy, NCSoft takes away everyone else's Western-style candy, hires bullies to keep Western-style candy out of the playground, and proceeds to stand on a soapbox and tell all the other kids that they should just give up their candy and accept the superior salty-plum candy.

And NCSoft is then surprised when the other kids gang up and take out the bullies and tell NCSoft where they can shove their salty-plums and how high.

well of course salt plum candy is not as popular as suggested there but is like saying all americans like horehound candy. But I get the point. But in this case it seems that since COX is gone we are creating our own, that way no one can take it away.

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2012, 05:41:34 PM »
I agree that NCSoft re-starting CoH now doesn't do much for them. Shutting down a profitable entity is already a loss, but I don't believe they calculated the destructive effect on their reputation in their cost/benefit analysis. It reminds me very much of "United Breaks Guitars". One $3500 guitar cost them millions before it was over (180 million in market cap but I don't have an estimate of actual revenue lost).

All along however, the way NCSoft  could recoup anything of the value in IP was to sell CoH and stop saying things that are obviously not true. It's still the clearest route to recovery for them.

It's the first rule of holes: stop digging.

If NCStupid turned the servers back on tonight at 8 pm PST, at this point I do not think there is any salvaging the company.

It is true, they took away our game from us for no discernible reason.

BUT. It is also true, that they have not just shot themselves in the foot, but actually blown that foot off with a bazooka. The foot will not ever regenerate, and now we have gangrene spreading to the other foot, aka the Asian market.

So, in hurting us, they HURT THEMSELVES FAR WORSE. Losing our game was awful, but it cost no one in the playerbase millions and millions and millions of whatever currency they use over there.

Axe jobs left and right, go right ahead. I do believe the great wheel of Karma will end up circling back around and grinding these idiots into powder. Those who axe jobs with no warning will eventually get their own jobs axed with no warning. Those who cause unhappiness, will have that unhappiness come home to roost.

They bought every bit of the evil that is now homing in on them, and now they can man up and take what's coming. Maybe they will learn something from all this, but I doubt it.

HarvesterOfEyes

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2012, 08:09:14 PM »
If NCStupid turned the servers back on tonight at 8 pm PST, at this point I do not think there is any salvaging the company.

It is true, they took away our game from us for no discernible reason.

BUT. It is also true, that they have not just shot themselves in the foot, but actually blown that foot off with a bazooka. The foot will not ever regenerate, and now we have gangrene spreading to the other foot, aka the Asian market.

So, in hurting us, they HURT THEMSELVES FAR WORSE. Losing our game was awful, but it cost no one in the playerbase millions and millions and millions of whatever currency they use over there.

Axe jobs left and right, go right ahead. I do believe the great wheel of Karma will end up circling back around and grinding these idiots into powder. Those who axe jobs with no warning will eventually get their own jobs axed with no warning. Those who cause unhappiness, will have that unhappiness come home to roost.

They bought every bit of the evil that is now homing in on them, and now they can man up and take what's coming. Maybe they will learn something from all this, but I doubt it.

The one bit of good I'd wish to see out of it is other game companies recognizing that what is strictly within their rights is not the definition of good business practices. I will be watching for them to express that recognition in their communications and EULA's. I will likewise be the person who asks questions in that vein in game forums of any in-development game I care enough to be acquainted with.

It's not just NCSoft I won't do business with again. Any software company that shows this sort of disregard for the paying customers is going to have a hard time selling me anything in the future.

Perfidus

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2012, 10:18:22 PM »
We're all smarter people, as consumers, after this debacle. I think it's fair to say that, at least.

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2012, 10:24:11 PM »
We're all smarter people, as consumers, after this debacle. I think it's fair to say that, at least.
It's more or less what I thought to myself when another game released a (in the opinions of many though maybe not most) bolloxed "grab bag" mechanic, and it applies to MMOs in general now because of NCsoft's actions: "You've ruined it for other games, now."  Now, nobody is going to risk putting this much investment into any other game on the chance it'll go away, NCsoftcore or not.

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2012, 11:24:01 PM »
We're all smarter people, as consumers, after this debacle. I think it's fair to say that, at least.

Well said Perfidus. If there's a definite silver-lining to the shutdown and the way it was handled, its this.
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Perfidus

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2012, 12:05:52 AM »
Yeah, but is it wrong to say I wish I was still ignorant? :P

(Edit: Woo. Now I am a boss.)

JaguarX

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2012, 12:21:01 AM »
We're all smarter people, as consumers, after this debacle. I think it's fair to say that, at least.

yeah. for those that this took by surprise or didnt know it could happen, well....it can happen and just did. Nothing we could do about that but now have to be smarter.

JaguarX

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2012, 12:24:32 AM »
Yeah, but is it wrong to say I wish I was still ignorant? :P

(Edit: Woo. Now I am a boss.)

I been around games, investing and rent agreements long enough so I knew from the get go. If I'm putting money into something and I do not own it and or it's not up to me whether or not it continues or not, then never put money or time that will be missed. Unfortunately, for many this was their first game of the MMO type and it's sad that instead of some old head ike me saying "Becareful, dont put too much time and money into a game," and probably be passed off as a DOOOOOM!! sayer, they had to find out this way in this manner.

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2012, 12:55:44 AM »
Yeah, but is it wrong to say I wish I was still ignorant? :P

No, it isn't. Knowledge is often burdensome, and there are many things that happens to one in life that makes forgetting seem an attractive option.
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Perfidus

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2012, 01:08:28 AM »


"Ignorance is bliss."


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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2012, 03:24:25 AM »
I don't think they were expanding, I think they (or some portion of their leadership) were/are trying to get out of the West, which has never been as profitable for them as their home market.

When I read about the "reorganization" of the Seattle office(I really had that term such a grey term for such a dirty deed, but I digress) that was my feeling as well. That they aren't trying to spread west that they are in fact withdrawing from the west. I really hope this completely bites them in the ass.
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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2012, 03:39:37 AM »
Actually, NCSoft is more like a kid holding a great big bag of salty plum candy.  Now, all the Korean kids love salty plum candy, so NCSoft assumes that every kid will want his salty plum candy.  But when the Western kids on the playground spit it out and say "ew!" and walk away, instead of looking for a big bag of Western style candy, NCSoft takes away everyone else's Western-style candy, hires bullies to keep Western-style candy out of the playground, and proceeds to stand on a soapbox and tell all the other kids that they should just give up their candy and accept the superior salty-plum candy.

And NCSoft is then surprised when the other kids gang up and take out the bullies and tell NCSoft where they can shove their salty-plums and how high.

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                                       We'll begin with a spin, traveling in the world of my creation. What we'll see will defy explanation.

            If you want to view paradise simply look around and view it. Anything you want to, do it. Wanta change the world? There's nothing To it.

corvus1970

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Re: Additional NCsoft layoffs
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2012, 04:09:22 AM »
Agreed!
... ^o^CORVUS^o^
"...if nothing we do matters, than all that matters is what we do."
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