Author Topic: The Bard is Back!  (Read 47911 times)

Sleepy Wonder

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Re: The Bard is Back!
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2012, 08:05:58 PM »
In that case I guess we're fortunate to have you to tell us all exactly why NCSoft is doing this and exactly what they're going to do next.  So tell us exactly what to do, because obviously we're all too stupid to figure it out until you speak.

When I first started posting here, this was a nice place.  You notice how now there are long periods of silence from me, and I haven't said much about what I've been up to?  It's because these forums have gradually become filled with a-holes who will tell me off, accuse me of stuff, and shoot me down every step of the way.  And I've been stupidly trying to defend myself!  What a waste of time that was.

If posting here is going to be a test of strength and to prove how tough I am and how much abuse I can take, then forget it, I have better and more fun things to do.  You win, you're stronger and tougher than I am, and I don't deserve to speak.  Instead I'll be quietly working over here on stuff none of you will know about.

To be fair, neither one of you knows anything (insofar as hard evidence about these assumptions). You might be right, or you might not be. It might be an educated guess, or it might not be. Unless you have inside information or are in a position at the company, saying things like..:

"I believe NCSoft is one of those companies.  They are waiting for someone [...]"

sort of opens the doors for people to chastise you.

It would've been better worded by saying "I believe NCSoft is one of those companies.  It is my opinion they are waiting for someone [...]"

I wouldn't take what anyone says here to heart personally. We're all different people from different backgrounds with different experiences and opinions of the entire situation. Some of us are angry and a lot of people are posting snarky or sharply tipped responses to other members here, when all anyone here probably wants is a community that is receptive or understanding at the very least.

Most of us are here for each other coming from the CoH community, so we shouldn't forget the importance of perspective taking when we're responding to people. Maybe they're just having a bad day.

I found your insight interesting to consider, and I enjoy reading people's theories, so please consider staying. The audience you're aiming for, I'm sure, will recognize the unicorns from the a-holes and everything in-between. I don't give much credibility into what I read from people who respond with ugly undertones to an otherwise polite informative or suggestion or whatever it is, so for what it's worth, you shouldn't feel the need to defend your arguments against such people.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 08:14:01 PM by Sleepy Wonder »

Turjan

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Re: The Bard is Back!
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2012, 10:25:01 PM »
Most of us are here for each other coming from the CoH community, so we shouldn't forget the importance of perspective taking when we're responding to people. Maybe they're just having a bad day.
Indeed - in many ways, ALL of us have been having one long, endless bad day since August 31st! Tempers will fray, nerves will get raw - but remember we're all on the same side here. No-one posting here is looking to get one up on anyone else, we're all the same. We're all hurting, all casting around for something to cling on to. If that wasn't so, well then we wouldn't be here at Titan in the first place, would we? :)

Some people may come across as confrontational sometimes, but I'm sure that's really just their own internal frustration at the situation showing through, and it shouldn't be taken as a personal attack.

It's always been internet wisdom to "never post angry", but when we've all been angry since September, it's kinda hard not to post angry sometimes. But if someone does, just shrug it off, ignore it, because it's a safe bet it's not aimed at anyone in particular.

Except NCsoft of course  ;)

Ammon

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Re: The Bard is Back!
« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2012, 11:20:52 PM »
In that case I guess we're fortunate to have you to tell us all exactly why NCSoft is doing this and exactly what they're going to do next.  So tell us exactly what to do, because obviously we're all too stupid to figure it out until you speak.

When I first started posting here, this was a nice place.  You notice how now there are long periods of silence from me, and I haven't said much about what I've been up to?  It's because these forums have gradually become filled with a-holes who will tell me off, accuse me of stuff, and shoot me down every step of the way.  And I've been stupidly trying to defend myself!  What a waste of time that was.

If posting here is going to be a test of strength and to prove how tough I am and how much abuse I can take, then forget it, I have better and more fun things to do.  You win, you're stronger and tougher than I am, and I don't deserve to speak.  Instead I'll be quietly working over here on stuff none of you will know about.

I'm really sorry you don't feel valued for telling us all about your belief that the guy who is already a multi-billionaire is doing this in a machiavellian plot to make himself a single-billionaire.  I'm certain that in your head, spreading poorly informed misinformation is helpful, and should never be corrected with cold facts that are easily found on these very forums.  We've known that the CEO sold his own shares for almost 700 million dollars for months.

Yes, my tone is sharp, because you hypocritically question the validity of the information Fansy presents, by feeding us absolute nonsense.  I want you to not do that again.

You were wrong.  Massively wrong in a way that is pretty funny, and deserves some teasing.  Seriously, you told us that a guy who already is worth billions, and understold some of his holding for just under a billion, is doing this to maybe one day retire with a billion?!  I'm not sugar-coating that for you, or telling you its a mistake anyone could have made to make you feel special.  That's because I'm not here to cuddle.  I'm here to fight effectively to save whatever I can of a game I love.

If you can help in that fight, I'll always be delighted to see you post.  If you harm that, by posting misleading bullshit and then getting upset if anyone contradicts it, then you are an obstacle to the cause as much as any unicorn.

Ammon

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Re: The Bard is Back!
« Reply #63 on: November 11, 2012, 11:30:59 PM »
The reason I'm a little short, is that there is much to do, and this news, whether true or not, is ... disturbing.

My fear is that Fansy may have been told the truth.  Because the first suspicion that springs to mind is that they are killing CoH so it can be sold to Nexon for a pitance.  And I don't think Nexon owning the game would be a good thing.  Not if some scheme like this was done to transfer the rights.  I fear that not because it seems especially likely, but because on the chance it was true, we really could forget any chance to save anything or ever have any release on the IP.  The whole thing would be a long term plan for a future joint project that no sensible offer would derail.

But for now this is speculation only.

We still need to be turning up the volume, gathering more support.

Instead I see fewer and fewer comments and likes made to posts covering the story and linked to in the 'Thank the Media' call to action thread.  Seriously, speculation is wasting time we could be using to actually fight with.  We still have so much to do.  Sitting back to speculate when we haven't spead the latest links, made comments, liked and +1'd coverage etc is not something that will make us win a fight against the odds.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: The Bard is Back!
« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2012, 12:59:55 AM »
Quinch, Rae, Ammon and I are working on a "this is a crazy idea, but it just might work."  I've been a bit out of the loop due to World Fantasy Convention in Toronto (we drove--Tulsa to Toronto and back again) but I am home now and we should have something in a few days for you to hit the ground running with.

Additionally, Larry is going to hit up a very interesting contact of his with a variation of the "crazy idea"--a plan he came up with today.  So, hang in there, get ready to weather the dark days of December, and keep that pressure on NCSoft.
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Jordan_Lee

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Re: The Bard is Back!
« Reply #65 on: November 12, 2012, 01:14:58 AM »
The reason I'm a little short, is that there is much to do, and this news, whether true or not, is ... disturbing.

My fear is that Fansy may have been told the truth.  Because the first suspicion that springs to mind is that they are killing CoH so it can be sold to Nexon for a pitance.  And I don't think Nexon owning the game would be a good thing.  Not if some scheme like this was done to transfer the rights.  I fear that not because it seems especially likely, but because on the chance it was true, we really could forget any chance to save anything or ever have any release on the IP.  The whole thing would be a long term plan for a future joint project that no sensible offer would derail.

But for now this is speculation only.

We still need to be turning up the volume, gathering more support.

Instead I see fewer and fewer comments and likes made to posts covering the story and linked to in the 'Thank the Media' call to action thread.  Seriously, speculation is wasting time we could be using to actually fight with.  We still have so much to do.  Sitting back to speculate when we haven't spead the latest links, made comments, liked and +1'd coverage etc is not something that will make us win a fight against the odds.

OK, if it is all true and NC's plan all along has been for Nexon to buy up CoH cheap, is that so bad? I mean it sounds underhanded and questionable, I don't know nearly enough if that is a legal loophole to avoid whatever it is (if there really is anything) that NCSoft has been avoiding. I've never played a Nexon game, though it's been mentioned on the forum quite a bit that they have poor customer service, I haven't heard anything else bad about them. If CoH shuts down, Nexon cuts a deal with NCSoft to buy up the game and turns it back on in the new year, wouldn't that be a win for us?

But yeah, you are right this is all speculation. However majority of us aren't in the loop, and I just keep myself busy with speculative conspiracy theories while asking my facebook friends who don't even know what an MMO is to sign the petition and look at articles.

Manga

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Re: The Bard is Back!
« Reply #66 on: November 12, 2012, 01:19:07 AM »
If you can help in that fight, I'll always be delighted to see you post.  If you harm that, by posting misleading bullshit and then getting upset if anyone contradicts it, then you are an obstacle to the cause as much as any unicorn.

And this is why I'm sick of this forum.  I never considered myself an important member of Titan Networks, I only stopped by to help Tony with NCSoft.  I notified everyone of my plans here out of courtesy in case someone had overlapping goals, or something to help or contribute.

What I got out of it - admittedly among some nicer posts - were accusations of trying to hijack the entire thing, getting pelted with straw-man arguments because I spelled a word or name wrong, and now I get called a unicorn.

[snippy snip! ~Agge]

You win.  The forum is yours.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 02:10:47 AM by Aggelakis »

dwturducken

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Re: The Bard is Back!
« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2012, 01:23:22 AM »
Quinch, Rae, Ammon and I are working on a "this is a crazy idea, but it just might work."  I've been a bit out of the loop due to World Fantasy Convention in Toronto (we drove--Tulsa to Toronto and back again) but I am home now and we should have something in a few days for you to hit the ground running with.

Additionally, Larry is going to hit up a very interesting contact of his with a variation of the "crazy idea"--a plan he came up with today.  So, hang in there, get ready to weather the dark days of December, and keep that pressure on NCSoft.

Man!  And, here, didn't get you guys anything! :)
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Aggelakis

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Re: The Bard is Back!
« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2012, 02:13:29 AM »
*puts mod hat on*

Ammon, pull it back. Nothing TheManga posted deserved the vitriol you used.

TheManga, you're welcome back anytime.

*takes mod hat back off*
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Ammon

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Re: The Bard is Back!
« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2012, 02:39:45 AM »
OK, if it is all true and NC's plan all along has been for Nexon to buy up CoH cheap, is that so bad? I mean it sounds underhanded and questionable, I don't know nearly enough if that is a legal loophole to avoid whatever it is (if there really is anything) that NCSoft has been avoiding.
The reason it would be so bad is that it would be somewhat of a scam.  A rigged sale.  The 'legal issues' they were struggling with in such a case might be tax avoidance on selling the game at a true value, or not having to pay anyone other than NCsoft who had any shares in the game (as top level managers often do, anyone know if Brian or Matt had any shares?).  But regardless it would be putting all of the staff of Paragon Studios out of work for a 'fire sale' opportunity.  It would never smell right.

Nexon, since you ask, are the largest Korean game company, and something of a poster-child for the country's industry generally.  Where NCsoft are the smaller of the two companies, and mainly have got their through investing in developing games themselves, Nexon raised a billion dollars when they went public, and other than their first ever game, have mainly got there by buying already successful game's smaller companies.  Nexon has developed some games itself but these have almost always been its flops. 

Where NCsoft get about 70% of their business in their own country, and only 30% from other countries, Nexon is the reverse, with almost 70% of its business coming from outside Korea.  A successful global business bringing money into Korea.  Nexon is the smarter at distribution and selling its game to non-domestic markets.  Nexon is also better at monetizing games through cash-shops and micro-transactions - the direction almost everyone claims that the entire games industry must go.  NCsoft adds that one major strength in being able to develop its own games, so while they are technically both rivals in the gaming market, there is also tremendous potential for synergy and cooperation.

https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/tech/2012/11/134_117086.html seems to give a fairly decent overview of how the two companies working together is being reported in Korea.

avelworldcreator

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Re: The Bard is Back!
« Reply #70 on: November 12, 2012, 02:43:19 AM »
Time like this is when I'm glad I'm not actively moderating my own forums right now (down for service and other issues).
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Jordan_Lee

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Re: The Bard is Back!
« Reply #71 on: November 12, 2012, 03:07:38 AM »
The reason it would be so bad is that it would be somewhat of a scam.  A rigged sale.  The 'legal issues' they were struggling with in such a case might be tax avoidance on selling the game at a true value, or not having to pay anyone other than NCsoft who had any shares in the game (as top level managers often do, anyone know if Brian or Matt had any shares?).  But regardless it would be putting all of the staff of Paragon Studios out of work for a 'fire sale' opportunity.  It would never smell right.

Nexon, since you ask, are the largest Korean game company, and something of a poster-child for the country's industry generally.  Where NCsoft are the smaller of the two companies, and mainly have got their through investing in developing games themselves, Nexon raised a billion dollars when they went public, and other than their first ever game, have mainly got there by buying already successful game's smaller companies.  Nexon has developed some games itself but these have almost always been its flops. 

Where NCsoft get about 70% of their business in their own country, and only 30% from other countries, Nexon is the reverse, with almost 70% of its business coming from outside Korea.  A successful global business bringing money into Korea.  Nexon is the smarter at distribution and selling its game to non-domestic markets.  Nexon is also better at monetizing games through cash-shops and micro-transactions - the direction almost everyone claims that the entire games industry must go.  NCsoft adds that one major strength in being able to develop its own games, so while they are technically both rivals in the gaming market, there is also tremendous potential for synergy and cooperation.

https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/tech/2012/11/134_117086.html seems to give a fairly decent overview of how the two companies working together is being reported in Korea.

Thank you for the explanation. I see where selling the game like this is shady as hell, it sounds illegal but also sounds like a sneaky loophole. But I guess I don't see that as bad. If Nexon acquires CoH, and turns it back on, that's a win to me. Of course we lost our devs, we may not get any of them back, and it may take weeks to hear back from customer service, and someone mentioned account data may be purged and cause everyone to start all over (but that sounded like a big if). Not perfect, but I don't think we'll get a perfect solution (perfect solution is NCSoft going 'April Fools!' and all the devs joining going 'Haha! Gotcha! And here is I24 going live'). But I guess what I'm widdling down to is, Nexon actually sounds better than NCSoft so why wouldn't we want them to take CoH?

TargetOne

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Re: The Bard is Back!
« Reply #72 on: November 12, 2012, 03:18:02 AM »
(perfect solution is NCSoft going 'April Fools!' and all the devs joining going 'Haha! Gotcha! And here is I24 going live').

Some joke... :P

chasearcanum

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Re: The Bard is Back!
« Reply #73 on: November 12, 2012, 03:48:57 AM »

....Seriously, speculation is wasting time we could be using to actually fight with.  We still have so much to do.  Sitting back to speculate when we haven't spead the latest links, made comments, liked and +1'd coverage etc is not something that will make us win a fight against the odds.

I swore I wouldn't weigh in on this, but I agree with this right here.

The human mind has a tendency to find patterns- we're frighteningly good at it- we even find patterns where they don't exist.  We're grasping at straws here, trying to make sense out of something that doesn't seem to fit the reality we know.  To do that, we look for patterns.  We take every tablescrap we can find even loosely tied to NCSoft, Paragon, or whatever and we cobble them together whether they make sense or not.  We learn facts like the recent distribution deal and stock purchase between Nexon and NCSoft and we assume that it MUST be related to this.  It's a clue, dammit, it HAS to mean something.   Nexon must be involved somehow... as does Blade & Soul... as does Perfect World and thus Cryptic (PW, Nexon, & NC all have business agreements, after all).   Now how do we connect them all? someone else mentions the possibility of a sale? all the better....

I swear, I'm surprised someone hasn't found a way to tie in the Star Wars Sale to Disney, the Avengers movie, and the recent presidential elections (Correction: someone DID try to tie in Obamacare's costs to the decision to close Paragon Studios)into the quagmire by now.  Sure, they don't directly relate to NCSoft, but given some of the other tangents we tie in, it wouldn't take much to do a "six-degrees-to-Kevin-Bacon" kind of thing here. 

Ironically the less we know about a certain subject, the more convinced we can become about the picture we create from the few scraps we see.  This is the basis for so many of humanity's long-standing impossible-to-debunk conspiracy theories, and its one reason why those more "in the know" for these conspiracies have a such a tough time taking the theorists seriously. 

The speculation and debate is a waste of time and a diversion from any productive effort.

It's easy to fall into the trap.  We all want answers- *I* want answers, but at some point, you have to say to yourself, "We don't have enough information to put together a real answer.  We can't even GET the information we need.... but we can do other things even without that information."   

  • We can keep the pressure on NCSoft to head toward a community-friendly solution.
  • We can keep the spotlight on the situation so other MMO publishers know not to follow the lead of these boneheads. 
  • We can continue to enjoy the game while we have it.
  • We can help record all that the game offered, as others are doing here on the boards.
  • We can look to contribute to the game's "Spiritual Successor"
  • We can remain prepared to support any effort to legitimately resurrect the game, once more details come to light.


Focus on these things. 

Focus on action.   

Leave the speculation for when that's all we have left.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 04:01:08 AM by chasearcanum »

Ironwolf

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Re: The Bard is Back!
« Reply #74 on: November 12, 2012, 03:52:46 AM »
Folks the pressure is on as the end nears.

Fighting among ourselves serves no one but our foe. The days pass more rapidly as the end nears and while you have been fighting you believed we would win. We might but again realize the game as we know it - owned by NCSoft will end Nov 30th.

It actually reminds me of a castle being put under siege for 3 months. If we win the surrounding countryside will be changed perhaps forever - but if we lose it is even worse. So as fighters and with many Alpha type personalities - we will at times grind on each others nerves - it is who we are. Defeat angers us, losing battles angers us - losing wars gives us quiet rage that can cause you to snap at those on your side.

Save the anger for NCSoft.   

Jordan_Lee

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Re: The Bard is Back!
« Reply #75 on: November 12, 2012, 04:18:28 AM »
People have also mentioned a Disney buy out, and a George Lucas buy out...

But yes, you are right and I'm sorry. The speculations are at the very least fun, but they do not help at all.

Lily Barclay

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Re: The Bard is Back!
« Reply #76 on: November 12, 2012, 04:23:40 AM »
Still think this infighting is exactly what whoever leaked this stuff to Fansy was going for.

Also still a cynic. lol

Quinch, Rae, Ammon and I are working on a "this is a crazy idea, but it just might work."  I've been a bit out of the loop due to World Fantasy Convention in Toronto (we drove--Tulsa to Toronto and back again) but I am home now and we should have something in a few days for you to hit the ground running with.

Additionally, Larry is going to hit up a very interesting contact of his with a variation of the "crazy idea"--a plan he came up with today.  So, hang in there, get ready to weather the dark days of December, and keep that pressure on NCSoft.

Yay for something new to concentrate our efforts on.  We need it.

Xieveral

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Re: The Bard is Back!
« Reply #77 on: November 12, 2012, 04:36:41 AM »
If CoH shuts down, Nexon cuts a deal with NCSoft to buy up the game and turns it back on in the new year, wouldn't that be a win for us?

From my personal experience, Nexon is not a company we want to handle CoH. They deal mostly in F2P games. The nature of Eastern F2P games is pay to gamble to win. You're heavily restricted as a free player and even as a subscriber.

Imagine if the only way to have non default costume pieces or purple enhancements was to buy a "mystery box" from the cash shop. Inside that mystery box could be the costume piece/purple you wanted, a purple/costume piece you didn't want or a piece of junk like common salvage or small inspiration.

A F2P system like CoH had is extremely rare.
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NecrotechMaster

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Re: The Bard is Back!
« Reply #78 on: November 12, 2012, 04:52:51 AM »
i know there are usually a lot of speculation, rumors, and potential for poeple to try to get in and sabotage stuff, first thing i usually do is ask myself if i recognize the poster

fansy has proven themselves a trustworthy person in the past and thus im inclined to believe what they are talking about

the thread that popped up the other day with a guy ive never heard of with 1 post count i didnt believe for a moment and it was confirmed to be complete falacy when they claimed to have contact with mercedes and mercedes popped in and said they have not been contacted by anyone


i think there is a large amount of questioning and stuff going on right now because we DONT know hardly any of the facts, so almost anything could be true, or it could be fasle, but in either case i make a judgement based on who posted it

TheManga does have a point to play a little devils advocate on this, as in this time where almost no information can be guarenteed 100% accurate, what we should do is judge the information by the person presenting the information, if the person presenting the information could be trusted, then the information is more trustworthy than the average joe with no post count

with all the conspiracy theories about why ncsoft could have made the closure decision, truthful information is scarce unless it comes from a trustworthy poster or if there are sources listed (such as a web article) to support the posters claim.  both would be preferable but i know for the more trustworthy sources, the sources they get their information need to maintain anonymity for the time being until things can get resolved and more information comes out to the open

as mentioned what we need to do is stick together, keep pressuring ncsoft, and turning up or down the heat depending on what information is revealed as time goes on

we will be able to do this as long as we can stick together, and i know we can do that, we have done that for 8 years on the official forums

Thunder Glove

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Re: The Bard is Back!
« Reply #79 on: November 12, 2012, 05:30:03 AM »
From my personal experience, Nexon is not a company we want to handle CoH. They deal mostly in F2P games. The nature of Eastern F2P games is pay to gamble to win. You're heavily restricted as a free player and even as a subscriber.

Imagine if the only way to have non default costume pieces or purple enhancements was to buy a "mystery box" from the cash shop. Inside that mystery box could be the costume piece/purple you wanted, a purple/costume piece you didn't want or a piece of junk like common salvage or small inspiration.

Frighteningly, that sounds very similar to the "lockbox" system Champions Online is now using.  (Except you don't buy a "mystery box" from the shop; the lockboxes drop randomly and you have to buy the keys to open those boxes from the shop.  And, not everything is unlocked that way - but they're moving closer to that)

Anyway, if all this rumor and speculation about NCSoft and Nexon turns out to be true, and CoH comes back up as a Nexon-owned game in early 2013, it'll still leave a bitter taste in my mouth over the needless destruction of Paragon Studios.

P.S., good luck on your Crazy Thing That We Don't Know What It Does, Victoria!  I'm rooting for you, too!