Author Topic: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting  (Read 8277 times)

Winter

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Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« on: October 15, 2012, 03:08:46 AM »

Sleepy Wonder

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2012, 03:55:06 AM »
Quote
Within short order, two different investment groups (speaking while protected by anonymity) claimed that NCSoft had refused to even discuss a sale, and ignored any and all offers.

The person who wrote this article posts here, so I'm not sure how accurate this statement is when they refer to two different "investment groups". Is he referring to TonyV and some other not-really-investment-groups or actual game studios? Because it seems that way, which would make this a false statement.

Why would whoever initiated an offer and gotten no response choose to remain anonymous?

The other part of the article I'm fine with, but if in fact that statement is what I think it really means.. well, I'm all for the cause but I think it would be very bad journalism to label two obscure offers in such a way as its presented. In fact, it's borderline dangerous. If everyone starts thinking these two supposed offers came from multi-million dollar studios and it turns out not to be the case, we won't really have a leg to stand on when we're all decrying them as liars once the real facts come out.

As far as I'm concerned, nobody knows if NCSoft got any offers or not still. There were confirmed reports that Valve for instance said it wasn't interested (after getting prompted by players to look into saving the game), as well as maybe a couple other studios we contacted.

As long as there is the clout of supposed NDA's, contracts, and people "choosing to remain anonymous", I will go on with what I know to be facts until proven otherwise.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 04:04:07 AM by Sleepy Wonder »

downix

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2012, 04:20:56 AM »
The person who wrote this article posts here, so I'm not sure how accurate this statement is when they refer to two different "investment groups". Is he referring to TonyV and some other not-really-investment-groups or actual game studios? Because it seems that way, which would make this a false statement.

Why would whoever initiated an offer and gotten no response choose to remain anonymous?

The other part of the article I'm fine with, but if in fact that statement is what I think it really means.. well, I'm all for the cause but I think it would be very bad journalism to label two obscure offers in such a way as its presented. In fact, it's borderline dangerous. If everyone starts thinking these two supposed offers came from multi-million dollar studios and it turns out not to be the case, we won't really have a leg to stand on when we're all decrying them as liars once the real facts come out.

As far as I'm concerned, nobody knows if NCSoft got any offers or not still. There were confirmed reports that Valve for instance said it wasn't interested (after getting prompted by players to look into saving the game), as well as maybe a couple other studios we contacted.

As long as there is the clout of supposed NDA's, contracts, and people "choosing to remain anonymous", I will go on with what I know to be facts until proven otherwise.
I was not including TonyV when mentioning two. I worked in motion pictures for a few years, moved in to investment management from there (not direct, I did technical support), and still keep in touch with some of my contacts there. In the investment industry, confidentiality is absolute, a deal leaking can result in major problems for any investment negotiations. If they allow me to mention names, I will. Investors also do not like it when they cannot make a deal, it may make them seem weak and other deals they are negotiating can back out as a result. Often times it will be months or years before any investment group will reveal that they approached for a deal, if ever. When investment leaks happen, they can and do torpedo deals, in short order.

The two I know of are not game studios, they are investment groups. My game studio contacts are far more limited, so if anyone from that industry did approach, they're not in my circle. The only studio I know of which did comment on the whole affair is Sony, which said they were not in a position for it.


Sleepy Wonder

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2012, 04:43:41 AM »
Thanks for clearing that up.

Sounds to me like people who work around money a lot seem to lose parts of their souls. What you describe is illogical to me. I mean, I can certainly understand why it is that way and how it all works, but at the same time.. at the same time it is as if the wall between the consumer and corporate spheres is solid lead at times.

Again what you describe, I couldn't help but think of a bunch of children whispering secrets to each other in their respective clique-like circles/groups all trying to outdo each other, when instead they could all be focused on whats important, which is the consumer.

The problem is most consumers are idiots, and I mean that wholeheartedly and for every definition of the word. Idiots. Sheep. But it isn't entirely our fault. It's human beings taking advantage of each other by our inherent flaws, all for a profit. We all have weaknesses and addictions that marketers just love to exploit.

But so long as the consumer remains blind to all of these exploiting tactics, businesses will continue to whisper behind each others and our own backs for their own benefit.

One thing that seems to be constant, is that if I were a business owner, going public with the company seems to be a very bad choice, at least with my way of thinking. It might take longer to get anywhere, but I think if you have a solid business there really shouldn't be a need to go public unless you succumb to outside pressure, greed or the ship is sinking. Facebook is a recent example that comes to mind.

downix

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2012, 04:45:55 AM »
Sounds to me like people who work around money a lot seem to lose parts of their souls.
Having worked around these people, they do not lose their souls, but they would be happy to sell you their souls for the right price.

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2012, 05:31:43 AM »
To me the mere mention of the anonymous investment groups degrades the article. I don't find it hard to believe NCSoft said NO, but the statement they refused "any and all" offers without facts of the actual offers seem like puffery to me. I dunno.. that sentence just strikes me the wrong way overall. Not saying this is the case but two offers...who knows if they were legitimate...I mean they could have been 1 million dollars which NCSoft should take as a slap in the face. Just because two groups made offers does not mean they put forth what NCSoft was looking for in an offer. And until BOTH sides corroborate what the offers were...I would have difficulty in believing what one side says were the amounts.







downix

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2012, 05:45:33 AM »
To me the mere mention of the anonymous investment groups degrades the article. I don't find it hard to believe NCSoft said NO, but the statement they refused "any and all" offers without facts of the actual offers seem like puffery to me. I dunno.. that sentence just strikes me the wrong way overall. Not saying this is the case but two offers...who knows if they were legitimate...I mean they could have been 1 million dollars which NCSoft should take as a slap in the face. Just because two groups made offers does not mean they put forth what NCSoft was looking for in an offer. And until BOTH sides corroborate what the offers were...I would have difficulty in believing what one side says were the amounts.
But that is not what I said. I said they refused to even discuss a sale and ignored all offers. No offers could be made, because they simply refused to even open up discussions.  Even a "no, not enough" would have changed the dynamic.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 05:53:39 AM by downix »

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2012, 05:59:00 AM »

So if no offers were made...then no offers were refused.
So no NCSoft did not "ignore any and all offers"...as their position is that CoH is not for sale.



But that is not what I said. I said they refused to even discuss a sale. No offers could be made, because they simply refused to even open up discussions.

Aggelakis

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2012, 06:00:56 AM »
So if no offers were made...then no offers were refused.
So no NCSoft did not "ignore any and all offers"...as their position is that CoH is not for sale.
Um... but NCsoft specifically said that they exhausted all options including selling/licensing City. SSSssssssssssssssooooooooooo if these people who were telling NCsoft they were interested got absolutely no response from NCsoft about selling/licensing City, that directly contradicts what NCsoft claims to have done.
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downix

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2012, 06:05:07 AM »
So if no offers were made...then no offers were refused.
So no NCSoft did not "ignore any and all offers"...as their position is that CoH is not for sale.
NCSoft's own press release contradicts this angle, however, as they clearly stated that they had exhausted all options, including to sell CoH. This puts NCSoft is a bad position, because failure to address groups interested in the property can be construed as the board being a poor steward of the shareholder interest.

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Burnt Toast

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2012, 06:15:58 AM »

So then I guess it is all on who you believe.


It doesn't really matter which side is not telling the absolute truth. Maybe it's both sides. We will never know for certain.





Um... but NCsoft specifically said that they exhausted all options including selling/licensing City. SSSssssssssssssssooooooooooo if these people who were telling NCsoft they were interested got absolutely no response from NCsoft about selling/licensing City, that directly contradicts what NCsoft claims to have done.

downix

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2012, 06:24:58 AM »
So then I guess it is all on who you believe.

It doesn't really matter which side is not telling the absolute truth. Maybe it's both sides. We will never know for certain.
What can be known for certain is that NCSoft is not being a good steward of its shareholder interest. This is over and above any offers which might have been made. Shareholders expect profits, and shutting down a profitable division is not good stewardship.

NecrotechMaster

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2012, 06:40:08 AM »
while im sure details for things are pretty shady right now and mostly unconfirmed, i am more inclined to believe that ncsofts "statement" regarding that they have exhausted efforts is complete BS and PR fluff.

i have been keeping up with whats happening on this forum since the original closure announcement and i have seen posts about some poeple who are heading small studios which support our cause (im too tired to feel like digging through all the posts on here to find it, but i know its been mentioned in at least 1-2 posts by a few different people)

in all those cases as far as im aware none of them even got responses from ncsoft, which is why i didnt believe for one second that ncsoft had attempted to exhaust any means to try to save the game

Shadowe

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2012, 12:14:42 PM »
Ultimately, it's a matter of trust.

NCsoft have said that they exhausted all options (including selling the game).
Other sources have said that they tried to open negotiations for purchase, but received zero response from NCsoft to their advances.

Hypothetically, anyone could say that they tried to contact NCsoft to open such negotiations, and this being the Internet, we have no way to verify the veracity of their statement, but when multiple separate groups report the same response (or lack thereof) to such attempts, it implies a corporate stance on NCsoft's part to ignore such advances.

The burden of proof lies on NCsoft's shoulders, to my eyes: they claim to have exhausted all options, but there is anecdotal "evidence" to the contrary. NCsoft have not said "we spoke to all interested parties and were unable to reach an agreement". If they said that, it would be a clear statement, and anyone who has NOT had a response from them would be well within their rights to request an explanation. As it is, all we have is that NCsoft have exhausted all options, and since there are comments to the contrary, we automatically add "that we could be bothered to explore" to the end.

Thus, NCsoft's communications have not been transparent with us or the interested parties, and skepticism on our part is only natural, which leads to the conclusion that NCsoft are withholding details unnecessarily.
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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2012, 12:31:39 PM »
 NC Soft wants you to shut up and go play GW2...

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2012, 12:38:27 PM »
NC Soft wants you to shut up and go play GW2...

I think you nailed it here !

Their statement was nothing more than :"Move along people, there is nothing to see here"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NNOrp_83RU
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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2012, 01:32:24 PM »
Oh man...I appreciate this guy is trying to help, but this article is full of misleading statements and mis-represented facts, that's really gonna hurt us. The idea that CoH made millions in profit has long since been debunked, we're all pretty sure it was lower than that. The 'multi-million dollar offers' bit was in reference to other shut downs, no mention as to which, but I sure hope that's accurate. And the way the article worded it, NCSoft said, in a single release, 'we're taking out CoH, but here's Blade and Soul'. Which is also not true, at all. That Blade and Soul is moving into the void is largely an inference, this article makes it sound as if NCSoft actually marketed Blade and Soul as its compensatory release. This is not our movement, this is a reactionary smear campaign whose reliability is roughly on par with any political campaign - lots of distorted truths maximized for reactionary value. This is the sort of stuff that discredits our efforts and our movement. Can someone who knows this guy personally talk to him, maybe? Explain the difference? I'm really not comfortable with this article's existence.

Just in case I'm too far along and out of context, I'm talking about this: http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/10/06/corps-shut-down-family-friendly-products/

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2012, 01:36:56 PM »
You're grossly exaggerating the level of implied direct statement the article makes regarding NCSoft's replacement of CoH with B&S; the article correctly identifies that the latter is coming out here after the former, and that the former's closure was cited to be due to a "realignment of company focus." It is perfectly fair to look at what they're still planning yet to release to see what this "realignment" might entail.

As for "making millions," you're probably right that we don't know what the actual numbers are. Though to be technically true, it need only make six figures in profit. I believe our numeric calculations of $800,000/month (the official revenue NCSoft itself claims CoH was making) leaves room for <$1 million/year in profit. It could be considered misleading, since "multi-million" is such a huge range, but the general point remains: it was making profits. It was not losing money.

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2012, 01:43:01 PM »
It might be noted that "this guy" (downix) is a frequent poster on the forums here, and has already commented on this thread multiple times....
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downix

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2012, 03:10:47 PM »
You're grossly exaggerating the level of implied direct statement the article makes regarding NCSoft's replacement of CoH with B&S; the article correctly identifies that the latter is coming out here after the former, and that the former's closure was cited to be due to a "realignment of company focus." It is perfectly fair to look at what they're still planning yet to release to see what this "realignment" might entail.

As for "making millions," you're probably right that we don't know what the actual numbers are. Though to be technically true, it need only make six figures in profit. I believe our numeric calculations of $800,000/month (the official revenue NCSoft itself claims CoH was making) leaves room for <$1 million/year in profit. It could be considered misleading, since "multi-million" is such a huge range, but the general point remains: it was making profits. It was not losing money.
We do know the gross profit from their stock reports published quarterly. Both NCSoft and Paragon confirmed the number of staff at the studio as well at 80. We also know Paragon was developing two new titles with most of that 80 being for those. We also found out the average rent range for the area. I held back on things I could not directly confirm such as server cost but I have gotten word on the price range.

Segev

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2012, 03:22:41 PM »
I stand corrected! Thank you for confirming and backing up your report. (Sadly, "your anonymous sources" will always leave naysayers room to work, but I am willing, at least, to take your word for it on this. For whatever my willingness to trust you is worth.)

downix

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2012, 04:31:08 PM »
Don't you mean gross revenue?
gross profit =gross sales - manufacturing costs. As NCSoft no longer manufactures boxes for the game there is minimal manufacturing costs to deduct from revenue.

Segev

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2012, 04:43:33 PM »
So gross profit differs from net profit by the value of overhead?

downix

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2012, 04:59:27 PM »
So gross profit differs from net profit by the value of overhead?
No, gross profit becomes Operating Profit once you subtract overhead. It becomes net profit after taxes and interest are deducted.

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2012, 05:20:28 PM »
Just to make this a bit easier, wikipedia (I *honestly* hope that this is correct), clarifies a bit here

Net Sales - Cost of Goods sold = Gross profit
Gross Profit -  SG&A (Selling, General and Administrative Expenses (combined costs of operating company)) = Earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization (EBITDA)
EBITDA - Depreciation & Amortization = Earnings before Interest and Taxes (EBIT)
EBIT - Interest Expense (cost of borrowing money) = Earnings Before Tax (EBT)
EBT - Tax Expense = Net Income aka Net Profit.

(source: Wikipedia)

I hope that this explains how many steps (and the order) that you go through to get to net profit.
That mirrors what I recall from working for Ron.

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2012, 05:24:29 PM »
Net Sales - Cost of Goods sold = Gross profit

And in general, COGS is the cost of raw materials for a manufacturer, or the cost of merchandise for a reseller.

For a service company, it's typically 0.

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Re: Morale Boost / Reason to keep Fighting
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2012, 05:33:45 PM »
Sounds about right. Most companies that I'm aware of tend to focus on EBIT more than any other number, since that does include G&A expenses and other overhead.