Author Topic: Direct Ownership?  (Read 8462 times)

AustinLSE

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Direct Ownership?
« on: October 05, 2012, 02:41:53 PM »
Sorry if these seems naive or was already discussed, but the thought occurred to me: NCSoft is a public company. They have shareholders. Shareholders are owners. Owners can dictate the direction of the company. They have 19M outstanding shares (according to yahoo finance). http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=036570.KS&ql=1

Using a currency converter (unless i did it wrong).. average share price is around $200.  What if the community somehow just started buying shares of NCSoft and take a minor stake in the company enough to be able to bring forward a shareholder vote on saving COH?  I don't know the structure of NCSoft as a corp, so don't know what the criteria is in order to bring a vote forward etc.  Hopefully there's some folks with a Financial background that could speak more to this? I realize we'd need an entity to buy the shares etc, but maybe this direction would be possible?

We may not be able to buy the IP of COH, but we can certainly buy into ownership of the IP controller and then use that ownership stake to drive what happens to the IP, whether it be  sold / released, or even keep the game alive?  Again, sorry if this is a naive thought or if it's already been discussed but I don't recall seeing this mentioned and thought I'd put it out there.

Cheers,
Mark

Knightslayer

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2012, 02:47:10 PM »
It came up in another thread, the general consensus was that it would be too expensive to get sufficient shares to make a difference.

Segev

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2012, 02:56:31 PM »
Assuming those 19M outstanding shares represent about 50% of the actual ownership value available to the company (a total guestimate based solely on knowing that Nexon is the largest shareholder at about 15%, other than the owning family whose share I don't know), it would take getting 10% of those 19M, or 1.9M, shares to gain even a 5% stake in the company. Going even smaller, on the off chance that even a 1% unified voting bloc of shares would be enough to influence their decision-making, that would still be 380,000 shares the community would have to buy and then elect a single proxy to be out voice.

380,000 shares at $200/share is $76M.

Seventy-six million US dollars we'd have to raise to gain a 1% stake in the company.

Even if the "19M outstanding shares" represented a 100% interest in the company, so Nexon has 15% or so of THAT, to get 1% of it would cost us $36M US.

At 20,000 signatures on the petition, that would be $3,800 US per signer of the petition, on average. I don't know about the rest of you, but that represents sufficient of my total spendable assets (i.e., not my car or my TV or my computer and the like) that I would not be willing to do it unless we had a guarantee of everybody else doing so, and even then...it's a massive risk.

AustinLSE

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2012, 03:01:47 PM »
okay, thanks folks, i didn't see anything in any other recent threads, and don't have any sort of search fu.

oh well..  /em drat  :(


Segev

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2012, 03:24:01 PM »
It was suggested in another thread that Richard Garriott might be interested in helping out if he were contacted, for personal and possibly business reasons. He has sufficient wealth, not to buy all of this, but to perhaps aid considerably. Nobody has yet, to my knowledge, reached out to him to see what he'd be willing to do, however.

Kheprera

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2012, 03:50:32 PM »
I seriously doubt Richard is interested in any more business transactions with NCSoft.

Also, as I understand (and will not elaborate on how, but I trust my source), he is moving from the traditional MMO and looking towards new technology... tablet games and such.  This is very much part of his MO.  He pushes the boundries of tech often requiring the newest and best tech to run his games.

But after what NCSoft did, he's not going to want to deal with them.


Atlantea

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2012, 04:02:39 PM »
I seriously doubt Richard is interested in any more business transactions with NCSoft.

Also, as I understand (and will not elaborate on how, but I trust my source), he is moving from the traditional MMO and looking towards new technology... tablet games and such.  This is very much part of his MO.  He pushes the boundries of tech often requiring the newest and best tech to run his games.

But after what NCSoft did, he's not going to want to deal with them.

Well he doesn't have to do business with NCSoft or get involved with another MMO. But maybe he might be willing to help out in other ways? Perhaps lend his voice and celebrity to the Save COH movement? At the very least, maybe it would amuse him to help in poking NCSoft with a sharp stick after what they did to him? I know if I was in his position, indulging in a little shaedenfreude by proxy would be a difficult thing to resist. See this thread here for more on that subject:   http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5467.80.html


Kheprera

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2012, 04:12:55 PM »
He's really not that vindictive.  Chances are he'd just say he's not interested in getting involved.  His wife just had a baby (his first, and about time) and right now he's concentrating his efforts elsewhere.

He's just not the kind of person to poke sticks (unless you're fencing against him, then he's got a really long reach).  He's the "let's all go out for pizza, my treat" kind of guy.

Segev

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2012, 04:15:24 PM »
He's really not that vindictive.  Chances are he'd just say he's not interested in getting involved.  His wife just had a baby (his first, and about time) and right now he's concentrating his efforts elsewhere.

He's just not the kind of person to poke sticks (unless you're fencing against him, then he's got a really long reach).  He's the "let's all go out for pizza, my treat" kind of guy.
Darn it, Khep, you make him sound like such a cool guy to know I'm tempted to try to reach out on this as just an excuse to try to get to know him. :P

Kheprera

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2012, 04:23:50 PM »
This is Richard:

I was 13 years old, and already with a wonky knee.  He was in his 20s (I remember his tiny apartment and *seeing* the Alpha Ultima III being worked on), and we were both at an SCA event.

I tripped over a log and hurt my knee more.

He *carried* me, piggyback, the mile from the campsite to my mom's car.

He *is* a really good guy.

And before anyone asks... I haven't spoken to him in nearly 20 years, but from a mutual source he still remembers me, yet I am leery of contacting him just for this.  Doesn't seem right to me. 

Atlantea

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2012, 04:47:57 PM »
Fair enough.

And he does sound like a cool guy.

Still...

I can't help but think that as a cool guy willing to go to those lengths for people...

You know. I was half-joking in the other thread about the appeal to ego. Mainly because I don't know him and what little I did know made him out to be charismatic and a bit crazy (but the GOOD kind of crazy - the creative and fun kind that makes you think "Hey - this just might WORK!") So I assumed the ego part. And because I'm at times something of a cynic when it comes to human nature and think it's usually safer to assume the "enlightened self interest" angle to appeal to people rather than outright altruism.

But based on what you know of him - would an appeal to pure altruism be the best approach after all?

With him (quite rightfully) concerned about wife and child, I wouldn't want to do anything or suggest he do anything to jeopardize that.

No business deals, no money. Nothing of the sort.

But maybe ask for his help and advice in spreading the word?

Maybe if nothing else he has some insight into the personalities of the NCSoft execs we're trying to move. Does he know about kibun? What kind of legal gymnastics can we expect in even trying to contact them? Are we going about it the right way? Is there something else we should do that he knows about?

If nothing else, maybe he's a good source of TACTICAL and legal knowledge and advice? He may have had an adversarial relationship with the NCSoft execs. But he BEAT THEM to the tune of 32 Million dollars! That kind of experience might be invaluable! Or if nothing else - maybe he can suggest help and advice from the people who helped him? I'm thinking of the legal team that won his case?


Kheprera

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2012, 05:01:00 PM »
I had the name of his legal team at one point...

I just don't want to be That Person who does the "Hey, you remember me from 20 years ago! Do me a favor!"  It rubs me wrong to use him like that.  I don't do that to friends (even if we've lost touch).

But, there's nothing stopping you from reaching out.  He may talk, or not, depending on if you can get past his staff who filter through the riff-raff.  I posted this to really say he would likely be uninterested in dealing with NCSoft.

But, if approached only for advice he may be more open.

He also knows Steve Jackson (not sure how close they are anymore), but maybe if the right person were to approach him, they might get further... (puts up VV signal).  (Only if you're comfortable with it, VV.)

Tarelgeth

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2012, 05:04:58 PM »
One thing to note.  An organized drive to buy a particular stock will drive the price of that stock up and make the company more valuable.  The more pull you want to end up with, the more you'll be rewarding the people who're currently given stock option bonuses....

Minotaur

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2012, 05:20:59 PM »
I have to ask this question.

Do you really think NCSoft would have anything to do with Richard Garriott even if he'd have anything to do with them ?

I would have thought any public involvement from him would doom any consortium to failure.

Kheprera

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2012, 05:23:09 PM »
There's that, too.

Segev

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2012, 05:31:26 PM »
One thing to note.  An organized drive to buy a particular stock will drive the price of that stock up and make the company more valuable.  The more pull you want to end up with, the more you'll be rewarding the people who're currently given stock option bonuses....
I believe the standard approach taken by those involved in a hostile takeover - which we're not nearly capable of, but which has similarities in execution - is to buy all at once to make the price-jump happen after they perform the buy.

While it might be a "reward," any attempt to take advantage of it would reduce the share of those taking said advantage. And prices would drop back down to normal levels when the sudden large purchase wasn't repeated.

We do have to be careful, however; in this case, our purpose is NOT to manipulate the stock price, but the last discussion of actions that would influence it ended when we realized that particular thread's idea was less than legal. Even if this is okay, we'd need to be very careful our purpose and our actions didn't allow accusations of illegality. And we want to make sure anything we do is legal.

Atlantea

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2012, 07:15:32 PM »
I have to ask this question.

Do you really think NCSoft would have anything to do with Richard Garriott even if he'd have anything to do with them ?

I would have thought any public involvement from him would doom any consortium to failure.

There is that. With that in mind, I'm thinking contact with Mr. Garriott would be useful more along the lines of just behind the scenes advice. "Who are we dealing with? What should we watch out for? What kind of tactics did they use against you?" That sort of thing.

Granted - much of his advice would come with the caveat that he was dealing with them as an adversary starting from the time they kicked him out. That of course colors things but we would know that going in.

Any open contact or association with Garriott might need to wait until we've exhausted all possible positive options and decided to go to a negative PR campaign against NCSoft. (Which at this point unfortunately looks more and more likely as time goes on.)

He may still have better things to do with his time of course.

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2012, 07:26:27 PM »
As an exmaple of the size of money we're talking about here, Rift was made for about 50 million - so we could fund 1.5 Rifts for the same price as 1% of stock in NCSoft.
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Victoria Victrix

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2012, 01:15:30 AM »
I met Richard *once*, in the sense that "we were both on a panel."

I know Steve well enough to call him by his first name, but have not been in touch with him for years.
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Kheprera

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2012, 01:54:09 AM »
I know Richard remembers me, but it's the whole "haven't talked in 20 years, do me a favor!" thing.  I'm just not comfortable with it.

*unsure*

Ironwolf

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2012, 02:18:23 AM »
Your gut is right.

Don't lose a friend you may regain one day because of a game. If you did anything you could ask for his advice on a way to shake up NCSoft - he may have a few ideas having been inside their lines.

Just explain you understand he has dealt with them and that you are trying to save a game the NCSoft Deathstar is trying to destroy. Personally, I wouldn't ask for anything more. Then thank him for whether he helps or not and that you remember a kindness to a stranger.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2012, 02:25:41 AM »
Your gut is right.

Don't lose a friend you may regain one day because of a game. If you did anything you could ask for his advice on a way to shake up NCSoft - he may have a few ideas having been inside their lines.

Just explain you understand he has dealt with them and that you are trying to save a game the NCSoft Deathstar is trying to destroy. Personally, I wouldn't ask for anything more. Then thank him for whether he helps or not and that you remember a kindness to a stranger.

This is a far better thing to do because he might well be able to offer some concrete advice.  The-Deity-Of-Your-Choice knows we're been flailing, trying to get a handle on these oiled eels and figure out what they're really thinking.
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Segev

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2012, 03:57:00 AM »
Khep, my suggestion would be, if you're interested in rekindling a friendship with him, do so. Not for the sake of this effort, but because friends are worth having. You can even mention it was this effort that made you think of it; don't make it "so do me this favor" but rather "so at least one good thing came out of it."

The friendship can last beyond Nov. 30, no matter what happens to CoH.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2012, 04:46:40 AM »
In my experience, unless you are going to a professional something (doctor, lawyer) and trying to get free professional advice (and often not even then, look how Olantern has been giving us legal insights) MOST people are flattered when you ask them for advice.  Good way to rekindle the friendship.
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DrakeGrimm

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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2012, 04:50:01 AM »
Seeking advice: good. Asking for a favor: bad. Usually. <.<


...then again, he's sort of eccentric. Who knows? XD
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Re: Direct Ownership?
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2012, 04:52:38 AM »
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