Author Topic: A request from the Plan Z side  (Read 12106 times)

chaparralshrub

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A request from the Plan Z side
« on: October 04, 2012, 01:20:04 PM »
'Ello.

What we are calling Plan Z, which is an attempt to make a new MMO in the spirit of CoH but owned by the community and with its own IP so as to be completely free of NCSoft in any way, shape, or form, has almost completely taken over the City Sunset forum with its preponderance of threads, and, indeed, is beginning to make it difficult to discuss secondary subjects because of the massive number of stickies. This is a good thing - lots of creativity is being displayed there, lots of ideas, and progress is being made in developing an increasingly long design document on how to make the game.

The one problem that this creates is navigating through the mass of ideas and being able to find your way, so I'm going to make the following request: Let's have a new subsection of Titan Forums specifically to discuss the various aspects of Plan Z, including separate subforums for the different tasks (e.g. writing, programming, business/legal, general discussion, etc.). The spiritual successor to CoH is coming!

Thank you! :-)

malonkey1

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2012, 02:35:03 PM »
Sounds good.

I call dibs on the head writer position.
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Blacjac84

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2012, 02:47:17 PM »
You might want to check out the forum there before calling dibs.  I believe a good number of head positions have already been assigned.

Sailboat

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2012, 04:30:49 PM »
You might want to check out the forum there before calling dibs.  I believe a good number of head positions have already been assigned.

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TimtheEnchanter

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2012, 05:30:11 PM »
Kind of a pity that so much of that is going on already. I'm interested in the project but don't want to allocate time to it while there's still an existing game to fight for. It'll just mess up my focus.

And by the time we get to Nov 30, the team (or whatever you want to call it) for Plan Z will be completely assembled.

DrakeGrimm

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2012, 05:41:32 PM »
The project's already become so big I don't even know where to start getting involved. :-/


Most of what I can contribute has been contributed...in. Uh. Sextuplicate.
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Clave Dark 5

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2012, 06:13:24 PM »
Yeah, some people have already come up with, say, a few new groups of gangs to fight, boroughs for the city, its name, etc.  That doesn't mean they've been chosen as the ones they're going with (as I understand it).  Right now it's a tangled mess of ideas exploding streamers of replies and further extrapolations and suggestions and nothing is set in stone.  As I understand it.

I'm in the same spot you are, sort of late to the game, but given a bit of time, I hope to toss in an idea or three.  I figure if they're good ideas, everyone will be wowed enough with them to want to use them - or not if they're not that great.

I do think though, that forum really needs a organization: sub-forums for each topic like "foe groups" with a single thread for each suggested group, etc. 
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TimtheEnchanter

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2012, 06:17:29 PM »
A forum is a pretty messy place to discuss anything as big as that. I can't imagine how big a 'book' for an developing an MMO would be.

Googledocs might help, but it'll probably still seem hairy.

Siberian Spring

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2012, 06:20:11 PM »
Would a wiki organize things better than forums?

SithRose

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2012, 06:23:03 PM »
Clarification - Nothing's been set in stone yet. We're still very much in the brainstorming phase on the story side, and I believe the tech side is in the early stages of "Let's see what we can do with the various engines available".

We are in need of people with artistic skills, be it 3-d modeling or 2-d art, for concept artwork. There is a LOT of story that needs to be written still - right now we have a fairly large number of groups roughed out, but there's still places that are missing. You can find the link to the ginormous document of stuff we've already done in the "Where We Are" thread.

There is always going to be room for people to write story arcs and contribute NPCs, whether it's a city councilman, a police officer, or a villain. Caveat: Just because you contribute it does not mean that it'll get used. It may also be changed significantly. The world history is still being brainstormed - I'm focusing on the groups first, because it's going to be easier to build the history with the groups in mind rather than adding them in to an already built history.

We welcome everyone who has something to contribute. I'm kind of heading up the groups and story arc sections right now. I'm hoping to get a more readable format in those areas set up today, migraine status depending. (I'm going to be pretty quiet today until I can shake this darned migraine.) All that we ask is that you be flexible, open to change and suggestions, and try to act polite and professional all around. :)

We are currently using a Google doc, but we're going to be branching that out significantly into multiple documents as we progress. A wiki would be exceptionally helpful in some ways, especially on the story/groups side. If someone wants to volunteer to set one up, I would not object. (I would ask that I be made one of the lead editors, since I'm mostly directing those sections. And by mostly, I mean I'm the one trying to keep track of where we are and what we need. ;)
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Clave Dark 5

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2012, 06:28:04 PM »
Clarification (snipped)
Thanks for the info!  I do wonder how one proposes story arcs though, if not even groups have been decided on yet... I really wish I had more time right now to look into all this in depth, dang RL stuff!  :'(
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Knightslayer

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2012, 06:29:06 PM »
Yeah, some people have already come up with, say, a few new groups of gangs to fight, boroughs for the city, its name, etc.  That doesn't mean they've been chosen as the ones they're going with (as I understand it).  Right now it's a tangled mess of ideas exploding streamers of replies and further extrapolations and suggestions and nothing is set in stone.  As I understand it.

I imagine when the time comes someone will have to don the mantle of lead Developer (Positron) and someone that of  lead Writer (Lighthouse), not to mention a world designer (War Witch) and weave it all together into one perfect whole while discarting what doesn't fit.
For now it's the same for me as for Tim, I want to focus on trying to keep the wonderful world we have, with all its lore that inspired so many of our characters and stories.

DamianoV

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2012, 06:29:54 PM »
@TimTheEnchanter

As someone who's been a part of quite a few distributed teams and large volunteer dev efforts, I wouldn't worry about it much.  In my experience, "filled" positions don't stay that way on that type of project.  It's typically worse than herding cats.  Titan probably has a leg up given it's ongoing experience in doing exactly this type of thing, but I doubt there won't be an opportunities galore to get involved, no matter how full it may look.

SithRose

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2012, 07:07:55 PM »
@TimTheEnchanter

As someone who's been a part of quite a few distributed teams and large volunteer dev efforts, I wouldn't worry about it much.  In my experience, "filled" positions don't stay that way on that type of project.  It's typically worse than herding cats.  Titan probably has a leg up given it's ongoing experience in doing exactly this type of thing, but I doubt there won't be an opportunities galore to get involved, no matter how full it may look.

Cat-herding is certainly an accurate description - we're trying to make sure that everyone documents things as much as possible.

I will implore people who feel that their skills are better suited to trying to save COH to do exactly that. :) We'd rather not see Plan Z implemented, because it means that COH is, effectively, dead.

Clave, we have quite a few groups that have been roughed out - if you think of a story arc or idea for that group, feel free to post it, or write your own arc around a group of your own making. :) There were a LOT of groups in COH, and there's going to be a lot here. There's a link to the Google document, which has a large section on the groups in it, in the "Where we are" thread. (I apologize for the messiness of that section, I'm going to be working intensely on it either later today or tomorrow.)
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Segev

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2012, 07:52:30 PM »
Honestly, if you feel a yen to contribute an idea or ideas to the Plan Z story, design, whatever... head over to the Sunset subforum and pick a thread that looks right to contribute it. If you're not sure, start a new one; somebody will probably tell you where to put it if there's a more appropriate place.

Some loose leadership has developed, but "heads" of anything are only tentative and there's still a ton of discussion and debate over what to do and how. While efforts will be in place to have "something" before Nov. 30, these are still last-ditch efforts being laid up against the worst; the hope is still for a saved CoH, somehow. So yes, if you've got things to do to help save CoH, keep working at it!

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2012, 09:09:51 PM »
Let's assume I thought any of the folks posting all over the City Sunset are capable of developing a MMO game. Just for argument.

All that "discussing ideas" stuff over there is counterproductive. Even if most posters were not... unprepared for the task... that mess of thousands of disparate "ideas" written up in excruciating detail and debated ad nauseam is not a workable approach to such a project. That most, including the most prolific and dominant "contributors," are not prepared (having no technical expertise), makes it worse. The few capable people who have seen that, including some programmers who were initially excited by the idea, have virtually run away screaming.

I don't think those capable people have even been recognized by the Plan Z subcommunity, as the group is becoming insular and defensive. I am sure to be chastised for pointing out the obvious here.

But, well, it's worse than a herd of cats. If you really want to accomplish anything, this current sort of brainstorming needs to go. Realize that very few in this group are qualified to design game software. Those few who are need to be identified, and the rest instead concentrate on things like funding. Anything else you say is almost certainly wasting the time of the capable, who could be discussing practical issues rather than trying to explain why your cool ideas in all their glorious detail are not feasible, or even trying to explain the concepts they are capable of implementing to non-programmers.

If you lack experience in software development and just can't put a damper on that creative urge, maybe you can separate and specialize. Writers create a group and figure out how to sort yourselves. Concept artists another group. Then figure out a way of coordinating without stepping all over other groups' territory. But understand that the experienced programmers, not creative artists (never the artists), are the top of the hierarchy. The programmers' work will determine the boundaries creative talent work within. If you aren't experienced and want to contribute, don't go looking for 3D engines or scripting languages and playing with whatever thing catches your eye -- wait for the lead programmers to point the way.

Maybe you'll ignore this, since it's a buzzkill and you're having fun. It doesn't matter much to me, beyond how this is derailing/hijacking efforts to actually preserve City of Heroes*, but if you're determined...

« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 09:21:11 PM by Mantic »

DamianoV

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2012, 09:14:21 PM »
@Basileac
Certain elements of the design effort may well lend themselves best to a wiki-style effort to manage them.  I've seen that used on several occasions by such efforts, including by a couple game devs doing their own things.  That said, I think wiki's have some usability issues as well (at least, in my experience they did). 

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2012, 02:37:45 AM »
I like to think of what is going on with Plan Z as a way of hammering out ideas so at least when Nov 30 and all our other efforts have failed, we have at least prepared for Plan Z and have some direction.

Plan Y is to send all of NCSoft to Aperture Science Labs if I remember correctly?

downix

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2012, 02:41:43 AM »
I like to think of what is going on with Plan Z as a way of hammering out ideas so at least when Nov 30 and all our other efforts have failed, we have at least prepared for Plan Z and have some direction.

Plan Y is to send all of NCSoft to Aperture Science Labs if I remember correctly?
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chaparralshrub

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2012, 04:33:28 AM »
If you lack experience in software development and just can't put a damper on that creative urge, maybe you can separate and specialize. Writers create a group and figure out how to sort yourselves. Concept artists another group. Then figure out a way of coordinating without stepping all over other groups' territory. But understand that the experienced programmers, not creative artists (never the artists), are the top of the hierarchy.

Mantic, this is exactly what I am proposing: that we have separate subforums so that the people who know what they are doing in their respective abilities can actually do them.

Now, I don't know what has been going on in the non-writing threads, because I recognize that I am not a software developer and am not going to suggest anything to the people who are. For my part, all of the stories I have written so far lie within the bounds of what CoH can already do, so I know that it is possible. If there really is a problem here in that people have been telling the actual coders what they can do and what they can't to the point where the coders have given up, then you need to tell us where, when, and what we can do to solve it.

Most of us don't have experience in software development, and most of us don't have experience in funding, either. Does that mean that we can do nothing?


Maybe you'll ignore this, since it's a buzzkill and you're having fun. It doesn't matter much to me, beyond how this is derailing/hijacking efforts to actually preserve City of Heroes*, but if you're determined...

Please explain this one also. Many of us are concentrating on Plan Z because there is also little that we can do to aid the effort to save CoH, apart perhaps from moral support. How are we derailing you?

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2012, 06:03:26 AM »
Let's assume I thought any of the folks posting all over the City Sunset are capable of developing a MMO game. Just for argument.

All that "discussing ideas" stuff over there is counterproductive. Even if most posters were not... unprepared for the task... that mess of thousands of disparate "ideas" written up in excruciating detail and debated ad nauseam is not a workable approach to such a project. That most, including the most prolific and dominant "contributors," are not prepared (having no technical expertise), makes it worse. The few capable people who have seen that, including some programmers who were initially excited by the idea, have virtually run away screaming.

I don't think those capable people have even been recognized by the Plan Z subcommunity, as the group is becoming insular and defensive. I am sure to be chastised for pointing out the obvious here.

But, well, it's worse than a herd of cats. If you really want to accomplish anything, this current sort of brainstorming needs to go. Realize that very few in this group are qualified to design game software. Those few who are need to be identified, and the rest instead concentrate on things like funding. Anything else you say is almost certainly wasting the time of the capable, who could be discussing practical issues rather than trying to explain why your cool ideas in all their glorious detail are not feasible, or even trying to explain the concepts they are capable of implementing to non-programmers.

If you lack experience in software development and just can't put a damper on that creative urge, maybe you can separate and specialize. Writers create a group and figure out how to sort yourselves. Concept artists another group. Then figure out a way of coordinating without stepping all over other groups' territory. But understand that the experienced programmers, not creative artists (never the artists), are the top of the hierarchy. The programmers' work will determine the boundaries creative talent work within. If you aren't experienced and want to contribute, don't go looking for 3D engines or scripting languages and playing with whatever thing catches your eye -- wait for the lead programmers to point the way.

Maybe you'll ignore this, since it's a buzzkill and you're having fun. It doesn't matter much to me, beyond how this is derailing/hijacking efforts to actually preserve City of Heroes*, but if you're determined...

That's an interesting perspective, Mantic. I'm rather curious as to which programmers have run away screaming for reasons directly related to Plan Z. Perhaps you'd like to cite some solid examples for us, so that we can address those concerns factually rather than theoretically? Certainly if people are becoming concerned about the brainstorming mode we're currently operating in, it's something that we'd want to hear about and discuss.

I'm a little bit curious as to your own experience in developing games of any kind - in my experience, which is fairly extensive, the brainstorming portion is rather critical to assembling a pool of *potential* tools, groups, and information to use. It doesn't necessarily mean that the process will be neat, and it certainly doesn't mean that everything suggested will be used or even workable. What it DOES do is provide the people who will be doing the bulk of the work, both writing and programming, a solid idea of what people would like to see in the game.

I understand that you've been fairly hostile to all of the Plan Z efforts thus far. Perhaps you're not aware that we've already been separated into several subgroups for quite some time, with people contributing at their level of expertise, in their areas of expertise. In some cases, that's extensive. In others, it's minimal and includes "things I really want to see" that are going to be completely impractical. We writers can write whatever we'd like - some of it will be used, some of it will be tabled for later, and some of it will be dismissed. That's part of what the Story Director does. The request here is simply a request to fine-tune the forum section that we're working in, nothing more.

I AM rather curious as to how you feel this is hijacking efforts to save COH, since every person who's posted about Plan Z on anything other than the Sunset forum has said that this is the absolute last resort to be implemented after ALL other efforts have failed. We've specifically said that we do NOT want people whose expertise is better used in saving COH to spend time working on Plan Z unless THEY feel that they can spare the time without drawing their attention away from the primary effort of saving COH. Please elaborate on this, as I'm not entirely certain how you're drawing the conclusion that we're trying to hijack efforts to save COH even after repeated statements that we do not want people to distract themselves from that task.

Perhaps you've missed the multiple times we've said that we are aware that the primary programming staff for Titan Network is busy with efforts to save COH, as they should be, and that we will not request assistance of them until and unless Tony says "Implement Plan Z"?

Can you address this in a calm, factual manner instead of a hostile, aggressive, un-substantiated manner, please? I haven't seen any input from you in the City Sunset forums, but perhaps there are threads you're reading that lead you to feel this way? Please do give us examples, as we are quite against any appearance of trying to hijack or reduce efforts to save COH. I'd much rather hand over the volume of material we've created to Paragon Studios and say "Here's some ideas for the next few expansions, have at it.", personally, and I believe that most of us working in those forums feel the same way.
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Mantic

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2012, 12:02:51 PM »
I'm not going to name names because I don't know these people and see them still hovering. They're interested still, but appalled at how things are.

I am openly hostile to your efforts, it's true. And that's only going to be more blatant the more you prod me. It's not an "interesting perspective" as you passive-aggressively put it, but open resentment to the way a few egomaniacs are using our situation as an excuse to promote pipe-dreams they've been harboring for years. Your Plan Z is not City of Heroes.

I've worked only in small games projects and mods. That was enough to recognize this problem. This kind of "team design" chaos finally put me off such internet-organized projects, after spending two years on a large project that wound up nothing like what I signed on for. And that was with just a team of eight people, not fifty, pulling different directions.

Want a thread that gives me the impression you are trying your damnedest to hijack this effort? Try this one, which completely disrespects the boundary that was put in place a month ago.

Oh, and I have no doubt that you folks would love to "hand over" your "work" to Paragon Studios and tell them "do this." Most of you are the same forumites who previously begged for that on the forums. Now you think of the prospect of rescuing the studio only as a way of gaining authority to push them into it. You're so noble.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 12:23:43 PM by Mantic »

Segev

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2012, 12:17:10 PM »
If these people you know are "interested...but appalled," please ask them to post somewhere - even through a private message to one of those that is doing some of the organizing - what their specific concerns are. While there is always some push and shove from those whose ideas are pronounced appalling, I am certain interest in making something workable will overcome that initial push-back and cause people to try to figure out what is workable.

As a suggestion, if you want your words to be useful and not to distract from the efforts to save CoH, yourself, you should perhaps refrain from calling people "egomaniacs" for the crime of having hope that things will turn out well and wanting to be a part of whatever they can to save it. Your deep-seated resentment is coming off as spiteful and petty rather than insightful, and your hostile "I'm not naming names but believe me they exist!" comes off more as a petulant fake crowd of imaginary friends and appeal to false authority than a caution to avoid making mistakes.

Do you also loathe these friends of yours who are still interested for being such egomaniacs that they would like to try their hand at this if it becomes less "appalling?" I doubt it.

Your past experiences are unfortunate, but I am not quite sure why their failure makes you so spiteful towards people who are trying something similar. Would it not be better to either ignore it if you simply cannot stand it, or to offer your advice about avoiding pitfalls without trying to talk down to everybody who might not bow down and kiss your pinkie ring for the grace of your words as if they were idiots, fools, and otherwise just plain bad unworthy people?

Mantic

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2012, 12:27:09 PM »
They post. They can do what they they want.

The "egomaniacs" I'm referring to aren't really helping. They're deeply into Plan Z, and at this point probably more likely to fight for YOUR project than City of Heroes. Like you.

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2012, 12:49:45 PM »
They post. They can do what they they want.

The "egomaniacs" I'm referring to aren't really helping. They're deeply into Plan Z, and at this point probably more likely to fight for YOUR project than City of Heroes. Like you.

Mantic, I think all of us would MUCH rather CoH got saved than that we had to write a replacement.

It's not hopeless but not looking good, so pressing ahead with the contingency plan is sensible.

I actually agree with some of the sentiments you express, and what needs to happen is that a smallish team of people need to ruthlessly go through the ideas and concoct a clear vision and set of guidelines as to what is going to be built. That is a difficult and thankless task but has to be done fairly early in the process if it's going to succeed. Having seen some large corporate IT disasters in my previous day jobs (mainframe programmer/analyst/DBA/general troubleshooter), I'm aware of the pitfalls of not having a clear purpose at the beginning. Going with a sub-optimal but clear plan is better than going with an unclear better one unless it's massively sub-optimal.

chaparralshrub

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2012, 01:13:16 PM »
I'm not going to name names because I don't know these people and see them still hovering. They're interested still, but appalled at how things are.

I am openly hostile to your efforts, it's true. And that's only going to be more blatant the more you prod me. It's not an "interesting perspective" as you passive-aggressively put it, but open resentment to the way a few egomaniacs are using our situation as an excuse to promote pipe-dreams they've been harboring for years. Your Plan Z is not City of Heroes.

I've worked only in small games projects and mods. That was enough to recognize this problem. This kind of "team design" chaos finally put me off such internet-organized projects, after spending two years on a large project that wound up nothing like what I signed on for. And that was with just a team of eight people, not fifty, pulling different directions.

Want a thread that gives me the impression you are trying your damnedest to hijack this effort? Try this one, which completely disrespects the boundary that was put in place a month ago.

Oh, and I have no doubt that you folks would love to "hand over" your "work" to Paragon Studios and tell them "do this." Most of you are the same forumites who previously begged for that on the forums. Now you think of the prospect of rescuing the studio only as a way of gaining authority to push them into it. You're so noble.

Mantic, when you post your objections to Plan Z, could you please offer constructive criticism instead of making blanket statements about us and then insulting them? Your last paragraph consists of, forgive me, flames. I, for one, have not been around for 'years' on the forums, so don't accuse me of trying for a hostile takeover of Paragon.

If you have something to say that will help us actually implement Plan Z, please say it. I would like to hear your constructive criticism on what we need to do, why, and why what we are currently doing does not work. If you are hostile to the very idea of creating a spiritual successor to CoH, then that's fine, but if you want us to stop, then at least give us a reason why, and explain why it won't work.

The "egomaniacs" I'm referring to aren't really helping. They're deeply into Plan Z, and at this point probably more likely to fight for YOUR project than City of Heroes. Like you.

This is quite a finger to point at Segev.

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2012, 01:19:32 PM »
Mantic, it has been clear and openly discussed from the outset of Plan Z that it would be shut down in the event of CoH being revived.  That doesn't mean that the people involved would not repurpose the work to something less related, because I think the idea of an open source, community developed MMO has merit.

If you would take a look at what is going on over there, you would see that it hurts no one.  If it offends you, there's really not a damn thing you can do by tossing Mccarthyist accusations.  If you have constructive criticisms, take them over there where they will be seen and acknowledged by the people who can best address them.  If you insist on a tantrum, please go sit in the corner until you can play nicely with others.

*sits back with popcorn*
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2012, 01:23:00 PM »
I hereby proclaim myself grand poo-bah of the 'Plan Z' project! It was even named for me, see? Z is for Zolgar!
From here out, all decisions must be approved by me! As well, I demand daily tributes of rum and snickerdoodles!

I also proclaim we must stop this nonsense of trying to save City of Heroes and let it die gracefully, so that my glorious Plan Z can rise from the ashes like a beautiful phoenix of awe-inspiringly epic code-fu!

There will be a moon base, complete with proper moon-physics!
There will be underwateryness, complete with proper water physics! And fire not working! And drowning! and stuff!
There'll be an awesome volcano lair.. that's MINE! and I can make it erupt any time I want, covering the world in lava! Bwahahaha
Oh, and there will be total power customization. Ever play Morrowind? It'll be like the spells in Morrowind, only COOLER!
And players will be able to entirely customize the skeleton of their character!

.. and.. I am sore, frustrated, slightly tired, and extremely goofy.. >.>

Codewalker

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2012, 01:31:50 PM »
It's not hopeless but not looking good, so pressing ahead with the contingency plan is sensible.

There are a few people who I see claiming loudly to be all about saving COH, but jumped straight to plan Z as soon as the announcement came down, and have spent most of their time since coming up with big plans for it.

If that's what they'd rather do, that's their decision, I won't judge them for that -- just for being duplicitous about it.  I'd just as soon they admit that they want to design their own MMO anyway and be done with it, rather than pretend to support one thing when they have every desire to go through with the 'backup plan' anyway.

Edit: I support the Zolgar Initiative. Plan Z needs strong leadership.

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2012, 01:55:33 PM »
City of Heroes players have always been creative and so of course a lot of people would be attracted to the idea  of crafting a new game.

downix

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2012, 02:15:34 PM »
City of Heroes players have always been creative and so of course a lot of people would be attracted to the idea  of crafting a new game.
Exactly. And if it's not used, hey, more AE missions!!

Hell, I'm taking one of the villain groups I came up with and am doing just that.


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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2012, 02:50:40 PM »
Mantic, it has been clear and openly discussed from the outset of Plan Z that it would be shut down in the event of CoH being revived.  That doesn't mean that the people involved would not repurpose the work to something less related, because I think the idea of an open source, community developed MMO has merit.

If you would take a look at what is going on over there, you would see that it hurts no one.  If it offends you, there's really not a damn thing you can do by tossing Mccarthyist accusations.  If you have constructive criticisms, take them over there where they will be seen and acknowledged by the people who can best address them.  If you insist on a tantrum, please go sit in the corner until you can play nicely with others.

*sits back with popcorn*

Can I have some of that popcorn please, DW? It's a good snack in between making capes and writing letters to NCSoft. :) Zolgar: Share the rum. And the snickerdoodles. But especially the rum. And if it's gone, I want to know why!

I'll extend an open invitation for anyone with concerns about Plan Z to chat with me about it politely, either in the forums *there* or in private chat . Over rum and popcorn and snickerdoodles. Flames and lava will be used to roast marshmallows and make s'mores. 

I don't particularly think that asking for more robust forum tools is hijacking anything the Save COH movement is doing. Constructive criticism that comes in the form of "This might not be working, perhaps you should try this instead" or "This attitude has turned away these people who are willing to help, perhaps you might want to contact them directly and discuss it with them" is always welcome, at least by me. Criticism that comes in the form of "You're all egomaniacal jerks who are being mean to people but I won't tell you anything about them" will result in more requests for lava-roasted popcorn. :)

I will make one thing very clear - if COH is revived, or if a more competent and professional group of former developers starts their own project, *I* will be saying "Here is what I have to offer. It is yours to use if you want. I would like to help if I can. I may not have skills that you need. I will not be upset or offended if you tell me that you don't want my stuff and don't need my help." I think I've been pretty clear and consistent with telling people that if they have skills better used for saving COH, I want them using THOSE skills, not working on Plan Z. I'd *like* to think I haven't been an egomaniacal twit, but I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time I've inadvertently rubbed people the wrong way online. :) If I am wrong and you think I have been, please tell me so I can fix it, 'k?

Now, let's get this thread closed down so it doesn't distract more people, and we can take conversations about getting forums redone to the forum moderators. Er...I'm pretty sure that's why Chap posted here in the first place...Cause we're not regulars on any of the forums, and don't actually know who the Titan forum masters are, and this seemed like the place where the request would get seen first. :)
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chaparralshrub

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2012, 03:21:20 PM »
Not enough smiles.

*Pours virtual rum*

Arr, matey! Ye dissidents can't understand the booty to be found in ye Plan Z? Well yer gonna have to walk the plank!

*Observes Captain Mako circling underneath the plank*


Exactly. And if it's not used, hey, more AE missions!!

Hell, I'm taking one of the villain groups I came up with and am doing just that.

I agree with your sentiments, downix!

Regarding saving CoH, I just don't think that there within my skill set that I can do at the moment that I'm not already doing, but I do think that designing contingency plans and, heck, writing plotlines for a new game are within my skill set, so that's where I'm helping. I, like everybody else, want to see CoH saved. If it is saved, then the only thing I will demand from Paragon is more Architect tools.


There are a few people who I see claiming loudly to be all about saving COH, but jumped straight to plan Z as soon as the announcement came down, and have spent most of their time since coming up with big plans for it.

If that's what they'd rather do, that's their decision, I won't judge them for that -- just for being duplicitous about it.  I'd just as soon they admit that they want to design their own MMO anyway and be done with it, rather than pretend to support one thing when they have every desire to go through with the 'backup plan' anyway.

Well, I hope I'm not in that lot, Codewalker. I was at the very beginning admitting that the chances of our saving CoH are slim and that we need to consider alternatives as well as trying to save the game itself.  :)

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2012, 03:33:27 PM »
Lord Zolgar! You know the plan wasn't to reveal your glorious participation and leadership until we had slain the horrid blight that is CoH! However, great one, I bow to your wisdom. Sadly, all I have are doodles of rum.

     ____
     \     /
   _\\   //_
 /             \
|                |
|     RUM    |
|                |
|                |
 \_______/

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2012, 03:33:43 PM »
There are a few people who I see claiming loudly to be all about saving COH, but jumped straight to plan Z as soon as the announcement came down, and have spent most of their time since coming up with big plans for it.

If that's what they'd rather do, that's their decision, I won't judge them for that -- just for being duplicitous about it.  I'd just as soon they admit that they want to design their own MMO anyway and be done with it, rather than pretend to support one thing when they have every desire to go through with the 'backup plan' anyway.

I've parked my toon in AP holding a torch, I've sent emails to NCSoft, posted various places, etc. etc. I want to Save CoH. However, when I saw the Plan Z forums, it seemed like something really cool and exciting - and since there's really relatively not much more I can do to Save CoH, I've jumped into Plan Z because it is fun, and it would be really cool to do. It's also encouraging to think that even if CoH is not saved, something good will come of it.

Mantic obviously brings up some good points, but I think the current state of affairs in the City Sunset forums are due to the fact that most people have trying to Save CoH as their priority, rather than organizing Plan Z. The Plan Z initial planning has started just in case, but until efforts are actually exhausted to Save CoH, that's the priority.

I do kind of wonder why this post was made in the Save Paragon City forums, rather than PM'ed to the forum admins or posted in the general or suggestions forums.
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Codewalker

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2012, 03:39:33 PM »
Well, I hope I'm not in that lot, Codewalker. I was at the very beginning admitting that the chances of our saving CoH are slim and that we need to consider alternatives as well as trying to save the game itself.  :)

To be honest, I have no problem with that. I'm not going to tell people what efforts they should and shouldn't be supporting, everyone has to find their own way there. I just get the feeling sometimes that there's a small contingent who are hoping that the save COH movement fails so that they can pursue something else without feeling guilty about it.

I will make one thing very clear - if COH is revived, or if a more competent and professional group of former developers starts their own project, *I* will be saying "Here is what I have to offer. It is yours to use if you want. I would like to help if I can. I may not have skills that you need. I will not be upset or offended if you tell me that you don't want my stuff and don't need my help."

I believe you when you say that, I'm just not sure that everyone else is as sincere. Maybe I'm just paranoid. :)

Back on topic, I think creating a "Plan Z" section with multiple subforums is a good idea to get better organized. Any thoughts as to layout?

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2012, 04:00:42 PM »
I believe you when you say that, I'm just not sure that everyone else is as sincere. Maybe I'm just paranoid. :)
Oh, absolutely. My concern is that painting with a broad brush would hurt the entire SaveCoH effort by excluding those who can help on the Plan Z efforts.

In every group you will find those who feel that they are better, that they have the one true way. The key is to acknowledge their efforts, and then reach consensus. There is no I in team, and there is no solo'ing Hamidon.

voodoogirl

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2012, 04:02:03 PM »
I posted a suggested Plan Z subforum layout in the Phase 2 planning thread or under Assemble The Team thread, I think

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2012, 04:05:47 PM »
There is no I in team, and there is no solo'ing Hamidon.
When you're a Mastermind, you never solo anything8)

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2012, 04:23:58 PM »
I posted a suggested Plan Z subforum layout in the Phase 2 planning thread or under Assemble The Team thread, I think

Found it, it was in Assemble the Team. I hadn't had a chance to comment on it yet. ;) Let me go do that, I'm going to copy it into Forum Purpose for ease of finding.
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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2012, 05:22:00 PM »
The key is to acknowledge their efforts, and then reach consensus. There is no I in team...

Ask Brainy Smurf or the Cavalier how groupthink diplomacy works.

Nah, I'm not sure you get it.

Although offered through gritted teeth, my advice earlier is exactly the thing you need to do to avoid nasty disappointments all around, if not complete disintegration. Even if I resented your efforts enough to wish that on you (I don't), it's something that will come over the course of months and years, so would not keep Plan Z from diverting energy and enthusiasm from City of Heroes rescue or preservation efforts. Listen to Minotaur and others who've been though similar experiences if you don't like my delivery.

downix

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2012, 05:28:58 PM »
Ask Brainy Smurf or the Cavalier how groupthink diplomacy works.

Nah, I'm not sure you get it.

Although offered through gritted teeth, my advice earlier is exactly the thing you need to do to avoid nasty disappointments all around, if not complete disintegration. Even if I resented your efforts enough to wish that on you (I don't), it's something that will come over the course of months and years, so would not keep Plan Z from diverting energy and enthusiasm from City of Heroes rescue or preservation efforts. Listen to Minotaur and others who've been though similar experiences if you don't like my delivery.
Ah, but we already began doing what he suggested. This is not my first rodeo here either.

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2012, 06:01:45 PM »
Titan staff: thank you for giving SithRose the authority to make the new sub-forums. I think this will streamline us a lot! :)


Although offered through gritted teeth, my advice earlier is exactly the thing you need to do to avoid nasty disappointments all around, if not complete disintegration. Even if I resented your efforts enough to wish that on you (I don't), it's something that will come over the course of months and years, so would not keep Plan Z from diverting energy and enthusiasm from City of Heroes rescue or preservation efforts. Listen to Minotaur and others who've been though similar experiences if you don't like my delivery.

Minotaur and others. Noted. Thank you, Mantis.

Downix, I don't know exactly what Minotaur said, but if we are already implementing it, then good (and we are glad to have your experience as well).

downix

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2012, 06:08:43 PM »
Titan staff: thank you for giving SithRose the authority to make the new sub-forums. I think this will streamline us a lot! :)


Minotaur and others. Noted. Thank you, Mantis.

Downix, I don't know exactly what Minotaur said, but if we are already implementing it, then good (and we are glad to have your experience as well).
This is what he said:
Quote
I actually agree with some of the sentiments you express, and what needs to happen is that a smallish team of people need to ruthlessly go through the ideas and concoct a clear vision and set of guidelines as to what is going to be built. That is a difficult and thankless task but has to be done fairly early in the process if it's going to succeed. Having seen some large corporate IT disasters in my previous day jobs (mainframe programmer/analyst/DBA/general troubleshooter), I'm aware of the pitfalls of not having a clear purpose at the beginning. Going with a sub-optimal but clear plan is better than going with an unclear better one unless it's massively sub-optimal.

Mostly focused on the server-side right now, to let the creative bits get some of their mojo going before we begin breaking them down.

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2012, 07:11:31 PM »
Plan Z is only going to be needed if NCSoft rfuses to sell the game to another punlicher, rfuses to sell the game to the players, refuses to sell the IP to the players, or Paragon Studios reforms as a new studio and starts work on a new superhero MMO - all of those options are not only way more preferable than PLlan Z, they're also way more practical - if any of them happen, then Plan Z would be dropped at once.
Trying to make a player-made and run MMO would be a ginormous amount of work, and there's nothign worng with laying the groundwork for it just in case November 30ths turns out to be bad - the more we have in place by then, the more we can energize the CoH community and show them that it's not over, no matter what NCSfot might think.

There seems to be some tind of misunderstanding that there's a Plan Z vs CoH split - there isn't - everyone wants CoH to be saved, or for the devs to form a new studio and give us another superhero MMO - but as neither of those are guaranteed yet, some of us think it's also sensible to makes plans for another way to fill the CoH-shaped hole that we'd all be left with if the worst happens.
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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2012, 08:55:10 PM »
I suspect that certain pieces of Plan Z are going to find their way into print even if CoH is saved, but that way that they'll appear in print is probably going to be Mission Architect. ;)

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Re: A request from the Plan Z side
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2012, 04:55:00 AM »
Please explain this one also. Many of us are concentrating on Plan Z because there is also little that we can do to aid the effort to save CoH, apart perhaps from moral support. How are we derailing you?

Actually, you could join the effort I am attempting to organize, with little recruitment yet, to record most content in the game. http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5428.0.html