Korean Kibun

[Segev]

My brain got lost on the wall of text, but this came to mind:
"That was a waste of a perfectly good explaination."

Code for:
"Shut up and tell us what to do!"
:-p

At the risk of sounding arrogant, I suggest looking at my posts in response to this thread early on. I have not outlined a SPECIFIC course of action, but I did try to interpret the information into a general idea of how to frame our actions. It might give you some ideas. (I hope!)

[darkquill]

Following StarRanger's lead, I found some more interesting info (on some of the same sites).

Here's one about Kibun and giving gifts in business settings:
http://www.korea4expats.com/article-gifts-in-business.html
Interpreting our sending masks and capes, our buying the devs dinner, etc, and then their note of thanks in response through this lens may be useful.

And here about business contracts:
http://www.korea4expats.com/article-business-practices-etiquette.html

Contracts are seen as a starting point rather than as the final goals of a business agreement and as the parameter within which the working relationship will be conducted. Koreans prefer that contracts be flexible so that adjustments can be made as the project/work evolves. Even those who are aware of the legal implications regarding the signing of contract, often still view it as less important than the interpersonal relationship between the two companies and find it difficult to understand why, despite the excellent relationship you've been having, you are not willing to overlook or change elements of the contract as you go along. It is important that you be aware of how your Korean colleague/partner views the documents in order to avoid misunderstandings while ensuring that he/she is equally aware of your position.

and decision making:

The decision- making process in Korea is done collectively and up through the hierarchy and therefore does take more time than you may be used to. Try to be patient, and even if you're not feeling patient, try not to show it.
Avoid criticizing someone in public, even if you have seen a Korean colleague do so. Criticism, especially of colleagues or Korean subordinates, should be conducted in private so as to reduce or prevent loss of face.
You may also want to avoid opposing someone in public as this, too, can mean a loss of face. Try thinking of alternative ways of going about expressing your opinion or concerns.

And about doing business with people you don't know:
http://www.ehow.com/about_6373036_south-korea-business-etiquette.html

South Koreans typically prefer to only do business with people they have a relationship with. According to Kwintessential, it is crucial to have a third-party introduction if you have never met or worked with a potential South Korean businessperson. This third-party person is typically called upon when a sensitive matter needs to be discussed.

Which may explain why those offers to buy the game from out of the blue don't get responded to.

Some of this stuff I only saw the one time. It's hard to know how up-to-date it is or how much it would apply to our Korean NCSoft friends here in America who are more used to us. But it seemed relevant, if correct.

[Epelesker]

Very enlightening read on the OP, sir. (Though I admit that I originally thought "kibun [気分] is a Japanese word! How does this--" You think that all the Gangnam Style I've been watching would let me know better.)

[TimtheEnchanter]

Except of course Anarcho-syndicalism with Tim the Enchanter since he obviously represents the "violence inherent in the system" with his threatening explosive gestures.

... it was the RABBIT! I didn't do anything!

[DrakeGrimm]

... it was the RABBIT! I didn't do anything!

Yeah right, buddy. Come on, let's go. That's for a jury of your peers to decide, mister.

* DrakeGrimm holds up cuffs

<.<

[Vulpy]

Following StarRanger's lead, I found some more interesting info (on some of the same sites).

Here's one about Kibun and giving gifts in business settings:
http://www.korea4expats.com/article-gifts-in-business.html
Interpreting our sending masks and capes, our buying the devs dinner, etc, and then their note of thanks in response through this lens may be useful.

That is interesting. Should I ever have cause to visit Korea, I should probably bring some bottles of Jack Daniels. It's sad that the biggest brand names native to my region are whiskey and Mountain Dew.

[Segev]

The very end of the "contracts" article is interesting.

Do we have any MIT attendees or grads on this board? The CEO's wife (and, I believe, CEO herself of NCWest) is an alumnus, and the special relationship between those who share a school may be quite useful here.

[QuantumHero]

Thank every single one of you for these resources...facinating reading it really is.  The beginning glimmers of understanding have tempered my rage but not my frustration...and yet they have also renewed hope for a solution that is heroic.

Here are my questions.

Kibun is face, it is similar to honor but not the same.  Right?  It is also the mantaining of harmony.

The other word, Nunchi is to see, to perceive..correct?

So how would a South Korean react to causing massive loss of face to another through unknowingly "closed eyes" what is the remedy for massive loss of harmony through ignorance in their eyes.

Is the admission of previously closed eyes and willingness to partake in mutual healing a real tactic?

By their actions, in having closed eyes to the nunchi of the west they have stripped Kibun from themselves and all of us.  I game company that says games and their communities are without face or value is not a company that should be making games at all.

But the other option is closed eyes that have led to terrible lack of harmony for all and the chance to make a tre gesture of understandin and apology...Ignorance can be forgiven deliberate insult is much more difficult.

Did that make sense?

[Atlantea]

Made sense to me.

[Teege]

* DrakeGrimm holds up cuffs

No comment.  8)

But back on track. Very interesting read! Thanks for that information.

[Knightward]

I was able to follow it, Quantum.  And I think the answer is, "Depends on how well they cope with shame/embarrassment," which isn't much of an answer.  But I also haven't been doing all the research here.

[Mister Bison]

Yeah right, buddy. Come on, let's go. That's for a jury of your peers to decide, mister.

* DrakeGrimm holds up cuffs

<.<

You called me ?

* Mister Bison flees

[Victoria Victrix]

OK you folks who "get this" better than I do.  I am going to send another letter, this time to the CEO of NCSoft in Korea, via overnight, so it won't end up in the sorting room with the capes and masks.

This is the proposed content.  Anyone who has any comments or suggestions, they would be welcome.

I am an old woman.  I wake up weeping.  I go to bed weeping.  At times during the day, tears are flowing down my face.  I weep because you are destroying my home, you are destroying my village.  You are destroying City of Heroes.

You have closed your eyes to this destruction of our harmony.

I am an old woman.  I do not have the skills to join a new "game," even if I would be welcome there (in so many I have found, I am not).  I have no children.  My aged parents live 1500 miles away and cannot travel.  My husband's parents live 1200 miles away and cannot travel.  My brother lives 750 miles away and cannot travel.  My best friend lives 500 miles away and cannot travel.  My husband is ill.  All my social contact comes via a "game," my village, City of Heroes.  I live in the remote country, and am 20 miles away from the nearest town.  City of Heroes is my village.

You are destroying my harmony.  I will never get it back.  After November 30, I will live until I die in sorrow and loneliness.  You are the CEO of this company.  This is your fault.  You are destroying my village.  You have closed your eyes to this destruction.  I lay this at your feet.

There is a little crippled boy who has had his faith in adults to be wise and caring of the needs of children destroyed.  He will never get this faith back.  You have closed your eyes to destroying his faith.  I lay this at your feet.

There are parents who will never have the tool they need to reach out to their autistic children and bring them back.  They are weeping.  Their harmony is destroyed.  You have closed your eyes to their tears.  I lay this at your feet.

There are old and crippled and traumatized people who have also had their village destroyed by you.  Like me, they too will end their lives in sorrow and loneliness because of you.  You have closed your eyes to their sorrow.  I lay this at your feet.

Do not pretend you know nothing of me, of these people.  They have written you, many times.  If you ordered your underlings to destroy these letters before you saw them, that is just one more wrongful act you have done among all the others.  You have closed your eyes to their pleas.  I lay this, too, at your feet.

You are destroying our village as surely as if you were ordering bulldozers to bury a village of real houses.  There are thousands of us, who are losing what we need to make our lives a little more bearable.  I lay all this at your feet, all this destruction of harmony, all this promotion of grief and misery.  I lay it at your feet.  You are responsible.

Some of us are old, some of us are sick and dying, and will end our lives in sorrow and loneliness thanks to you.  We lay this at your feet.  You will bear the burden of this for the rest of your life.  Your company will bear the burden of this for as long as it survives.

There is one thing and one thing only you can do that will end this.  Sell City of Heroes to someone who will keep our village alive.  Only that will end the sorrow, the disharmony, and your guilt in perpetrating it.  Only this, and nothing less.

[JWBullfrog]

Wow. Never tick off a writer. If anyone can pull that off, you can.

oh and FPAVV (if that counts here)

[Segev]

That is powerful, polite, and yet shows the "fit of anger to regain kibun" that sounds like it's acceptable according to the OP and related articles. It also is deeply shaming, coming from an "old woman." (Characterizing it that way makes you both vulnerable and yet venerable-and-wise.)

I have not shown the best of judgment in some of the things I've suggested or thought were clever in the last couple of days, so I want to take a bit of time to think on it, but I think it's a good move. I also think that getting a strong, solid hint in there or via some other avenue that this will get wide public release should CoH/V actually finally close down would be utterly terrifying to the CEO of NCSoft. I think, based on my extremely limited knowledge of kibun and asian culture and PR in general, that you've found a masterful way of hitting them with a shame that could force the directorship of NCSoft to retire if it became public.

What I write here is a probably poor suggestion, but perhaps some variant on: "Because of the gravity of this to me and those I have named whose sorrows lay at your feet, it is imperative upon my own honor that I be certain you have seen and understood it. No private response will be sufficient; I cannot be sure it is you who have sent it. Therefore, should no action be taken to restore the harmony you are casting to the ground to splinter into ten thousand irretrievable shards, I will make this plea in a public reading of this letter on channels and venues I know you will be unable to miss."

That's clumsy and too openly threatening, I think, but if that can be reworked to fit the rest of the letter's tone and be a little more subtle (so nobody can point to it and scream "extortion!"), I think that we should try to get the sentiment in there.

[Atlantea]

Hm...  To this jaded cynical western ear, that sounds like "laying it on a bit thick".   

BUT...

You're not sending it to someone with a western ear. From what I've read on the kibun thread and related articles, I think this may be just right. Especially assuming it would be translated to Korean.

(For a comparative example - A lot of Asian emotional drama looks "caricatured" or "over the top" to Western eyes and ears It's why dramatic anime and Hong Kong Martial arts movies are still an "acquired taste" to many people. Although Asian comedy often translates quite well since slapstick is a common thing to both sets of cultures.)

I could be wrong though. Is anyone with a better "ear" for the kibun also thinking this looks good? I'm certainly no expert from reading what little has been posted here etc.

(And for what it's worth, VV - I have trouble thinking of you as "old". Blame those glamour shots of you they used for the hardcovers of your books. :)  )

[Terwyn]

Something else to consider mentioning is that this course of action is taking away the voices of many.

I have found it increasingly difficult to freely interact with people outside of my family in a direct fashion. I have not spoken a word to anyone I am not related to in the past three days, simply because I am no longer sure I can trust my own voice in regards to keeping the sense of betrayal from influencing my tone of voice and word choice.

I do not think I need to explain why it is important for one to keep one's voice from appearing aggressive and confrontational when there is no reason for such a tone to be taken with the person one is speaking with. It is really difficult for me to keep emotional control from bleeding into my voice when the feeling is of such intensity.

[Segev]

Something else to consider mentioning is that this course of action is taking away the voices of many.

I have found it increasingly difficult to freely interact with people outside of my family in a direct fashion. I have not spoken a word to anyone I am not related to in the past three days, simply because I am no longer sure I can trust my own voice in regards to keeping the sense of betrayal from influencing my tone of voice and word choice.

I do not think I need to explain why it is important for one to keep one's voice from appearing aggressive and confrontational when there is no reason for such a tone to be taken with the person one is speaking with. It is really difficult for me to keep emotional control from bleeding into my voice when the feeling is of such intensity.

This is, from a western standpoint, a bit troubling, and I feel for your pain in this matter, Terwyn. If there's anything we can do as friends and fellow forumites, please let us know here or even in a pm.

From a Kibun standpoint, this seems the essence of just how badly they've damaged the Kibun of their customers and how their Nunchi is either utterly failed or they are deliberately scorning it. There is something in this we can use, much as I loathe the situation that makes it exist at all.

[Victoria Victrix]

Added:

"There are people who are so burdened with sorrow, so burdened with anger over your actions, that they no longer dare to speak to others for fear their anger will overflow on those who do not deserve it.  You have stolen their voices, and you have closed your eyes to this.  I lay this at your feet."

[Terwyn]

....
:'(

Thank you.