Author Topic: And NC says...  (Read 76931 times)

Dr Shadow

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Re: And NC says...
« Reply #220 on: October 03, 2012, 02:44:57 PM »
But wouldn't that be the reason to have a PR Firm, to navigate the cultural differences. 
Sorry, but I'm calling BS on the cultural differences. I would understand it being more of a factor if they strictly operated in Korea, but to do business internationally they would know other countries don't play by their cultural rules.  In the end it's about money. Always has.
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Solaris

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Re: And NC says...
« Reply #221 on: October 03, 2012, 02:46:20 PM »
They want to bury the City, just like all the other games they've given up on. It's time to include Nexon whenever we mention the travesty that is NCSoft. They're supposedly one of the bigger shareholders and we've been letting them off too easily. I'm sure they'd love the association.

Vulpy

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Re: And NC says...
« Reply #222 on: October 03, 2012, 02:48:54 PM »
But wouldn't that be the reason to have a PR Firm, to navigate the cultural differences. 
Sorry, but I'm calling BS on the cultural differences. I would understand it being more of a factor if they strictly operated in Korea, but to do business internationally they would know other countries don't play by their cultural rules.  In the end it's about money. Always has.

The cultural differences shouldn't have a negative impact--NCsoft's executives doubtless interact with people from other cultures all the time. But that doesn't mean that taking the time to learn a little more about our audience is a bad thing. I just enjoy learning about other cultures in general.

Still, "a little learning is a dangerous thing."
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Segev

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Re: And NC says...
« Reply #223 on: October 03, 2012, 02:49:52 PM »
There is, in all cultures with a concept akin to "kibun," a way to turn so ham-handed an effort to restore it when one is wronging you and attempting to artificially hide it around without violating it yourself. I am not an expert on Korean social judo, so I can't offer the proper, precise means of doing so. But I can say this: we must be willing to both play this as Westerners - take the insult as an affront and demand satisfaction - and to also take a more subtle tack, wherein we play the game and demonstrate that it is NCSoft who is causing the embarassing loss of kibun for all parties while we attempt desperately to spare it.

West-wise, "You're lying" is the easiest and best response. It instantly undercuts their effort, it shows just how badly they've affronted us, and it makes them look inept at maintaining kibun AND at handling PR. Kibun-wise, doing so does hurt them, but also makes us look crass for so baldly declaring it. It still, if Asian fiction can be trusted, can be done, but we will have to otherwise be PARAGONS of courtesy and virtue to demonstrate that our failure in this instance to accept their effort is not a failing of ours, but a sign that NCSoft has so badly violated the spirit of kibun and done such a dishonorably abhorrent job of exercising Nunchi that it is obviously entirely their fault.

I think, but I could be wrong here, that a more subtly-worded but still pointed variant on the following might be a good way to try to shame them into giving us what we want lest they damage kibun further while we demonstrate proper nunchi:

"Your understanding and hearing is appreciated, and we feel your great pain at the sorrow you feel for the harm your actions have caused. In order to spare you further turmoil, let us join in brotherhood with no secrets between us that we might find a solution. We understand that you're exhausted, so allow our energy to sustain you as we find the harmonious solution we all doubtless desire. Your wisdom can surely find it, if you but take of our energy and innovation. We are all distressed to see you fail in this beloved goal you have set. Let us assure that you do, instead, succeed."

Vulpy

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Re: And NC says...
« Reply #224 on: October 03, 2012, 03:12:48 PM »
"Your understanding and hearing is appreciated, and we feel your great pain at the sorrow you feel for the harm your actions have caused. In order to spare you further turmoil, let us join in brotherhood with no secrets between us that we might find a solution. We understand that you're exhausted, so allow our energy to sustain you as we find the harmonious solution we all doubtless desire. Your wisdom can surely find it, if you but take of our energy and innovation. We are all distressed to see you fail in this beloved goal you have set. Let us assure that you do, instead, succeed."

That seems to be a fair message to me. Would anyone else have an opinion?
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darkquill

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Re: And NC says...
« Reply #225 on: October 03, 2012, 03:53:32 PM »
That seems to be a fair message to me. Would anyone else have an opinion?

Only to agree.

dwturducken

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Re: And NC says...
« Reply #226 on: October 03, 2012, 03:56:45 PM »
Well here is something that occurred to me.  It will take some research....but in most cultures there is a token, an object or something of the sort, that indicates that you have committed an act of such shame and cowardice that you really should consider going home and drowning yourself.  In the West it is a white feather--white feathers were given to young men in WWI who did not enlist, very often by young women.  I am sure there is something similar in Korean culture.

Now imagine dozens, hundreds of such tokens sent to NCSoft...attached to "save CoH" cards.

Here's an idea: How about we go the other way.  There is some symbology of theirs that we could use to our advantage. For instance, cats are seen to expel evil spirits, while bats were used in decorations to symbolize luck.  Also, for some reason, roosters were symbols of patience, war, and other surprisingly noble things.

Not sure if this sort of symbolism is too "old-fashioned" to be of use, but maybe it' a way of accomplishing what you suggest without "going negative."
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Nyghtshade

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Re: And NC says...
« Reply #227 on: October 03, 2012, 09:49:54 PM »
I'm only just weighing in here, so forgive me for taking so long.  It seems to me an amazing bit if irony that just at a time when "Save CoH" enthusiasm seemed to be lagging for a number of players... NCSoft went and threw gasoline on the fire.   

*Warms hands over the flames, wonders how much pressure lots of facebook posts about NCSoft's unseemly business practices and how Garriott won both his lawsuit and NCSoft's appeal" might generate.*

Turjan

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Re: And NC says...
« Reply #228 on: October 03, 2012, 10:32:17 PM »
It seems that the key here is that they have, in fact, told what they see as a little white lie in order to try and restore Kibun between us and them.

The problem is that they've really gone about it the wrong way.

Exactly. As ever, they have demonstrated a singular lack of understanding of western Kibun!

This continues to surprise me when you consider Taek-Jin Kim's missus Dr. Song-Yee Yoong has a degree from MIT. Which logically implies she spent enough time living in the US to at least acquire said degree.

It occurs to me that if they're not going to try and understand the western mindset, we should make every effort to understand the Korean mindset. Because in so doing, we'd be playing Kibun oneupmanship...if you get my drift ;)

Valjean

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Re: And NC says...
« Reply #229 on: October 03, 2012, 11:00:12 PM »
I call BS on cultural differences too. NCsoft has an American PR team. This isn't about cultural differences, this is about them not giving a darn about the players.

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Re: And NC says...
« Reply #230 on: October 03, 2012, 11:13:58 PM »
I call BS on cultural differences too. NCsoft has an American PR team. This isn't about cultural differences, this is about them not giving a darn about the players.

I actually think both are true.

NCSoft absolutely, as a corporate entity, thinks we are a bunch of children.  They have showed this contemptuous attitude toward us in everything they have done since Black Friday.  To them, we are nothing but sheep to be sheared and it is outrageous that we are daring to threaten to withhold our wool.  And to be fair, how many corporations in the West can you name that don't pretty much have the same outlook?

However I think that their outrage and attitude also stems from a complete inability (or unwillingness) to understand the West. 

In a way, it's the worst of Western corporate culture married to the worst of Korean cultural attitudes towards underlings (ie, customers).

I believe that using their own culture against them cannot hurt, and might herd them in a direction we want them to go.
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Segev

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Re: And NC says...
« Reply #231 on: October 04, 2012, 01:01:11 AM »
While many corporations in the West do view the customer as a funding base, if any saw the kind of reaction we're giving NCSoft, they would be playing a much more active PR game. If dead-set on killing CoH no matter what, they'd be working very, very hard to spin it into the ground and spin us with every carrot, stick, and trick they could think of, because they'd recognize that, "children" or not, this is a disaster for their future.

VV is right; the lack of understanding of the West is making NCSoft not only do this callously, but foolishly. And our best hope is to understand them enough to show them precisely why.

MishaFox

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Re: And NC says...
« Reply #232 on: October 04, 2012, 08:30:30 AM »
Why is it that every time NCSoft does something it just makes things worse? What is painfully clear is that they just do not understand how we feel and how to handle this tactfully and politely. Their whole treatment of this has been heavy handed and cavalier. Whatever ultimately happens to CoX this will hurt the company as a whole.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: And NC says...
« Reply #233 on: October 04, 2012, 08:34:38 AM »
While many corporations in the West do view the customer as a funding base, if any saw the kind of reaction we're giving NCSoft, they would be playing a much more active PR game. If dead-set on killing CoH no matter what, they'd be working very, very hard to spin it into the ground and spin us with every carrot, stick, and trick they could think of, because they'd recognize that, "children" or not, this is a disaster for their future.

Could it just boil down to the fact that because this is mainly impacting western audiences, and NC is switching to focus on only eastern, that they figure anything that happens with us won't affect them in a year or so?

To summarize, without any intention of sounding racist, nationalist, or whatever, "We're only going to focus on the Korean market soon, and our customers won't care what the English-speaking world thinks of us."

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Re: And NC says...
« Reply #234 on: October 04, 2012, 10:06:56 AM »
I agree that there are cultural differences-- this is is a documented fact.

What I don't agree with is that this is an insurmountable problem. NCSoft is a business, and even if they don't value us as a customer base, they have to value us as a potential commodity-- a salable item someone else WILL value.  I think the whole "we can't reach an agreement" thing is smoke an mirrors designed to amp up the offering price as possible (and I take some small amount of pleasure in the fact that it will probably cost NCSoft about $60 to translate "Smoke and mirrors" into a culturally appropriated phrase).

However, I think that every instance where we make ourselves public indicates to potential buyers/investors is that yes, there is an established and passionate playerbase here, and that's worth something tangible.  Heck, lots of MMORPGs have sunsetted with a less committed players.  One that values the game, and actually wants, no, is EAGER, to pay for it.  I'm pretty sure that SW:TOR or CO would pay good money for that kind of commitment.

Lastly, there's the matter that you simply don't try to destroy a City of Heroes without expecting those Heroes to fight back.

DrakeGrimm

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Re: And NC says...
« Reply #235 on: October 04, 2012, 10:11:37 AM »
I agree that there are cultural differences-- this is is a documented fact.

What I don't agree with is that this is an insurmountable problem. NCSoft is a business, and even if they don't value us as a customer base, they have to value us as a potential commodity-- a salable item someone else WILL value.  I think the whole "we can't reach an agreement" thing is smoke an mirrors designed to amp up the offering price as possible (and I take some small amount of pleasure in the fact that it will probably cost NCSoft about $60 to translate "Smoke and mirrors" into a culturally appropriated phrase).

However, I think that every instance where we make ourselves public indicates to potential buyers/investors is that yes, there is an established and passionate playerbase here, and that's worth something tangible.  Heck, lots of MMORPGs have sunsetted with a less committed players.  One that values the game, and actually wants, no, is EAGER, to pay for it.  I'm pretty sure that SW:TOR or CO would pay good money for that kind of commitment.

Lastly, there's the matter that you simply don't try to destroy a City of Heroes without expecting those Heroes to fight back.

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Re: And NC says...
« Reply #236 on: October 04, 2012, 12:49:02 PM »
In the words of Captain John Paul Jones...

eeek

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Re: And NC says...
« Reply #237 on: October 04, 2012, 12:55:32 PM »
Why is it that every time NCSoft does something it just makes things worse? What is painfully clear is that they just do not understand how we feel and how to handle this tactfully and politely. Their whole treatment of this has been heavy handed and cavalier. Whatever ultimately happens to CoX this will hurt the company as a whole.

I don't believe their announcement was ever meant for us.  It was intended as a way for them to plaster their (suddenly oh-so, very) compassionate and heartfelt message.

After Black Friday, the media were reporting on us, the plucky underdogs, taking on this big, multi-national mega-corp.  The responses from the readers were often supportive, and of the  "go get 'em!" variety.  They took a nasty hit, and got some PR folks to do some spin doctor magic.

Now after their recent announcement, what's been in the media?  THEIR headlines, stuff like "CoH Is Gone."  Why?  Because NCSoft made the last news.  Not because anyone has any negative bias, but because they made the headline news.  And what happened when their message made headlines?  The responses got much more negative, telling us to give it up and move on, and stop acting like whiny crybabies.

So, no, it doesn't seem like this maneuver was heavy handed at all.  It seems like they pretty skillfully shifted the headlines from OUR message, to THEIR (suddenly kind and gentle) message.  I don't think their move this time made things worse for them at all.  I think it was pretty slick, actually.

We can leave the headlines alone, but then that leaves NCSoft with the last word,  in the broader eye of the public.  That is really counter-productive to our cause, because regardless what you or I think of it, or whether it had the slightest truth to it or not,  it sounded reasonable.  (Dammit!)

We need our own spin doctors to tell us how to make the next headline, without US looking like the heavy-handed jerks here. 


Turjan

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Re: And NC says...
« Reply #238 on: October 04, 2012, 01:56:58 PM »
Good point indeed there, eeek.

Just a week ago, the media was all over that BS rumour about "NCSoft in talks to buy Valve". I'm seriously beginning to wonder now if that rumour was actually started by someone at NCSoft in an attempt to hike share prices and save a bit of face from the drop they had after the initial flush of GW2 sales. As it happened, the rumour was quickly quashed and didn't impact share prices anyway...but all the same, my tinfoil hat is tingling...

As far as how NCSoft's latest announcement is being handled by the media, there's a not a lot we can do about that because they are always more likely to get a headline than we are because they're a global gaming corporation and we...well, basically we aren't.

But it occurs to me that as all they've done is repeat their initial announcement (which made headlines) then we should repeat OUR initial actions (which also made headlines).

A Unity rally would be ideal - but I fear that might actually end up doing us more harm than good. There's no doubt there are a hard core of players with heels all dug in, refusing to budge, but I'm also certain there are less players to draw on than we had during the initial emotional reaction to the news on Aug 31st. And if we put together a rally that attratced less than the 3700 shown in Leandro's now-legendary video, then NCoft could just lean back in their shiny leather exec chairs, fold their hands behind their hands and say "Ha! See? Support is waning. Now all we have to do is wait them out".

Alas, this will always be our problem, so if we can't do what we did before, then we must do something entirely different. So different the media will have to look at us almost as if to say "wtf are they doing there now? Oh, I gotta write this down..."

I'm thinking something ingame, something visual, something...symbolic. Something that wouldn't necessarily require thousands of players, but would be visual enough to send a message that we've not gone away and we still think of Paragon City as OURS. All we'd need is that one special screenshot to speak the proverbial thousand words.

If you cannot have the depth of a crowd, you will need the length of a line. And a tracking shot. And a suitable location.

- The top of a moutainous ridge, zulu style, holding torches (at night perhaps).
- A row of swimmers all in perfect synch, swimming out from the shore together.
- Two rows, heroes and villains, facing each other in a PvP zone not with conflict but all with boombox emotes.
- Heroes huddled atop the Atlas globe, like so many angels on the head of a pin.

I'm sure other ideas will present themselves once folk make the mental shift from the idea of straight numbers to one of context and symbolism. The point is to capture that magic "Kodak moment", one that can sit atop a news article as a visual hook. All journos love a good visual hook after all. And it wouldn't even matter if the article under the hook picture said nothing new - because after all, that is essentially exactly what NCSoft just did with their announcement wasn't it? ;)

Dr Shadow

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Re: And NC says...
« Reply #239 on: October 04, 2012, 02:06:44 PM »
Maybe we should get a PR firm or Publicist?
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