Wildstar and Carbine - should we encourage them to switch publishers?

[Atlantea]

I had a post all ready to go for posting on the Wildstar facebook page. But then I had some second thoughts. Is it wise to do this now?  I'd like some opinions - both as to the wording of my post and perhaps on the timing. If it's not a good idea yet, I could wait.

Here's what I had written:

Hi there. I was wondering about something concerning Carbine studios and Wildstar.

Perhaps you've heard of the situation with City of Heroes recently? How NCSoft has closed the still profitable Paragon Studios with absolutely no warning, blindsiding 80 employees and leaving them jobless? In the process, they've also devastated an entire dedicated community of players who were in no way ready to quit playing City of Heroes.

It's apparent from studying NCSoft's recent business practices that they have little to no interest in remaining in the Western market over the long term and that Guild Wars 2 and Wildstar will be NCWest's final outings here.

Guild Wars 2 is out and so far a success. But City of Heroes was still profitable. So for how long is GW2 safe from the axe? Being profitable apparently was not enough.

Wildstar is still in development at Carbine. Does the situation with NCSoft concern you as to the future of the game and Carbine Studios and it's employees?

It concerns me. Out of 15 MMOs that have ever been shuttered, NCSoft is now responsible for no less than 1/3 the total. Dungeon Runners, Auto Assault, Tabula Rasa, EXteel, and now City of Heroes. NCsoft now has the reputation among gamers as "The MMO Killer". How can we trust the products of our imagination to such a publisher? How can we trust them with our money?

I've really liked what I've seen of Wildstar so far. But what kind of future does it really have under NCSoft?

Does Carbine Studios have any options for changing publishers to a different company than NCSoft? You probably can't say publicly, I understand. But I hope privately that you are considering all options.

I'd love nothing better than to support Carbine and Wildstar. But as a City of Heroes player who has been heartbroken at what NCSoft has done, I can't afford to invest either emotionally or financially in another product that has their stamp on it. If your game comes out and it's still under NCSoft then I deeply apologize, but I won't be able to play it, no matter how good it is. I don't want my money going to a publisher that does not have the best interests of jobs and creative energies here in North America at heart.

Let me be clear - this is in no way a slam at Carbine Studios. My ire is directed solely at NCSoft. I wish only the best for Carbine and Wildstar.

I just hope you'll consider the option, if possible, to "Pop the escape hatch" and get Wildstar and Carbine out from under a publisher that clearly has little interest in remaining profitable in the western market.

With the greatest respect, I wish you the best of luck and profitability in your future endeavors.

What do you think? Should I go ahead and post that? Edit it? Wait?

Upon further reflection and seeing that we need to keep up the pressure on all points, I've decided to go ahead and post the above to their facebook bage:

http://www.facebook.com/WildStarOnline

Also I've sent copies to their public info and press email addresses.

I don't expect any answers. In fact they'd be smart not to answer.

But I want them to think. I want them to know we're out there. That we're watching.

And I want NCSoft to sweat a little more in their bunker.

[Rae]

I really like it. Nicely written.

[sindyr]

Though I was VERY much looking forward to it, I won't play Wildstar while it remains under ncsoft and CoH remains dead.

[Knightslayer]

I'd personally say wait, not much to gain by attacking NCsoft like that while they are still in negotiations with Paragon Studios, which actually requires them to show us some good will, seeing as they are holding all the cards.

[Atlantea]

It's not attacking NCSoft directly. It's asking Carbine Studios to consider who they are working for and whether they have a future there. Which by everything we've seen, they just might not.

If they choose to say to NCSoft: "Uh guys? We're starting to see a problem here..."

Well. That's more pressure. And as stated over in this thread:

http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5299.0.html

That's what we need right now. More pressure. Not less.

I'm posting this thing.

[Atlantea]

Oh... wow. Just more proof of what some of the Devs have said - everyone knows everyone in this business. I missed this initially, but on Carbine's homepage, they say some of them used to work on City of Heroes.

Veeeeeery interesting.

[Segev]

I'd personally say wait, not much to gain by attacking NCsoft like that while they are still in negotiations with Paragon Studios, which actually requires them to show us some good will, seeing as they are holding all the cards.

Actually, this is precisely the kind of negative campaign that can work. Pressure on NCSoft showing that they do have something to lose for their business practices - rather than merely a bitter "I'm taking my money and going home" - can actually work.

I know it seems counter-intuitive; "how is this different than saying I won't buy an NCSoft product even if CoH were restored?" It's different in two ways: 1) It doesn't out-and-out say "under no circumstances will I ever buy NCSoft products again, even if they do everything I want them to," and 2) it is talking to a game developer about why you won't buy their products while they are funneled through NCSoft.

That latter is something that will have impact; if developing studios start shying away due to NCSoft's practices, it won't matter that customers are doing so. It won't matter if NCSoft has lost a customer forever. They will always hope they can re-gain the developer trust, because they are a big publisher. And if developers start abandoning them, they start losing reputation on a level visible to their bottom line; they HAVE to address that.

This missive was quite respectful and tactful. I think it is not a bad move. Others who agree with it and who were considering similar games with similar developers should likely write their own letters, or even start a petition to send to Carbine.

[Codewalker]

+1

I was very interested in Wildstar until the abrupt CoH shutdown notice; I'm not about to start another game that may suffer the same fate with little to no warning.

It's probably too late in the process for Carbine to change publishers, but it certainly doesn't hurt to bring it to their attention.

[Atlantea]

BTW guys? If you could go there and if you've got facebook toss a few likes onto my comment?

http://www.facebook.com/WildStarOnline

[RogerWilco]

I like the "MMO Killer" moniker. That's the kind of thing NCsoft would really not want.

I don't like some of the other parts, because you assume things. You don't know if CoH was profitable, you don't know if NCsoft is disinvesting in North America.

A lot of your post is based on rumours.

[Atlantea]

Yup. I want that "MMO Killer" Meme to get started.

As for the rest? Actually I'm not making any assumptions at all. I could've backed up most of my assertions with direct links.

But this is not that kind of letter. This is about PASSION. And about intent. Stated politely of course.

If someone calls me on the technical details? I can back things up with the facts. But this is about poking NCSoft with a sharp pointy stick.

NCSOft is silent for 3 weeks running. They have a gameplan to wait us out.

If they want to "turtle" then it's time to hit the flanks and show them there's NO PLACE where we can't make things uncomfortable for them.

*Poke*  Yo NCSoft... no talky after a week? RALLY!!  Atlas 33!!!!

*Poke* Yo NCSoft... no talky after two weeks? Tony releases the email addresses.

*Poke Poke* Yo NCSoft... no talky after three weeks? Time to do something new. Like point out to Carbine they could be losing sales EVEN BEFORE THEIR GAME OPENS. All because of "NCSoft, the MMO Killer".

And in the process, maybe make some OTHER studio that we haven't heard of - reconsider working for NCSoft.

Speaking of which - any ears on the ground about those kinds of potential business deals we could throw a metaphorical monkey wrench into?

Next week... Yo NCSoft... still no talky?  *POKE POKE POKE*

[jeangray]

Liked your post on Facebook and really, like what you've said in general.  All of your questions are fair considering we haven't heard anything and many seem to be uninterested in continuing on with anything NCSoft has a hand in with their recent "MMO Killer" history.  MMO Killer...maybe we should try to get that trending on twitter as our next action...

[Segev]

Bets on how long it would take for a villain named "MMO Killer" to be forcibly name-changed?

*ducks and runs*

[Atlantea]

HA! No bets.

[LtlBtyRam]

and Liked!

[Atlantea]

LOL... Check this out!   

http://gamespeopleplay.smackjeeves.com/comics/1587704/fool-me-six-times/

[emu265]

I would say yes.  Say this happened to another MMO, published by, say, Blizzard.  Now Blizzard is coming out with a new MMO that looks really good, would I trust them?  Hell no.

[Vulpy]

I'm pretty sure that Carbine knows what's going on over here--if they didn't before, they certainly do now--but the OP's message is going to have a bigger long-term impact on potential players of Wildstar than on Carbine. Their business deals are probably, if not set in stone, at least set in concrete by this point. Players reading that might decide they want to know more, though.

It's a savvy message.

[Turjan]

A good post there Atlantea

If I was a betting man I'd put a fair sum on Carbine already having been trembling in their boots since August 31st...

Some people are saying we should hold fire, that there may be touchy negotiations going on with NCSoft about City of Heroes, and we don't want to cloud those waters by flinging mud around.

A noble sentiment, but flawed.

If negotiations really ARE going on, nothing we do will affect that, and certainly not negatively, because half of what we've been saying and pitching for for weeks is to actually get negotiations going...so if they are, well then we're preaching to the choir, aren't we?

But if negotiations AREN'T going on, and NCSoft is just staying silent in the hope they can ride this storm out til it passes, and that we'll all quietly fade away and eventually knuckle under and toe the corporate line...well now then that's another matter entirely isn't it?

As I see it, the longer NCSoft stay silent, the more potential damage they're inviting for themselves. And that's foolish. Sure, there's a risk that some of US may end up feeling somewhat foolish if at the end of day NCSoft turn round and say "Look, all that time we were actually negotiating, and behold, we've sold CoH and it can continue!", but until that happens, the best thing we can do is keep shouting, and keep attention focused on the issue. If NCSoft don't like that, then it's up them to break their silence.

If they're prepared to sit back and remain silent while their previously happily paying customers justifiably call them "The MMO Killer", then I'm afraid they deserve the title.

Like I say, if NCSoft are working something out, they'd better speak soon to avoid unnecessary damage to the company.
And if they're NOT working something out, then our voices might be all that stand between NCSoft and the murder of another MMO that carries their name.

We owe it not only to ourselves, but also to any potential Wildstar player to make this point. If NCSoft have an issue with that, then it's really up to them to say so, isn't it?

[Codewalker]

Some people are saying we should hold fire, that there may be touchy negotiations going on with NCSoft about City of Heroes, and we don't want to cloud those waters by flinging mud around.

If negotiations are still going on at this point that can only mean one of two things:

1. It's a done deal and they're working out all the tiny details.
2. They've hit a major impasse, and while still officially in negotiations, it's unlikely either party will budge.

Either way, we can't afford to sit on our hands and do nothing; hoping that everything will magically work out. I consider the massive influx of emails their execs got when those addresses went out as a warning shot. A clear message that yes, we would prefer to play nice, however we as a community have been wronged, and will not stand for it.

It's been 3 weeks and there hasn't been so much as a hint that (1) might be true. At this point I see nothing wrong with NCSoft having to face some negative PR consequences for their decisions.

[eabrace]

It's been 3 weeks and there hasn't been so much as a hint that (1) might be true. At this point I see nothing wrong with NCSoft having to face some negative PR consequences for their decisions.

If nothing else - and I say this from a personal standpoint, not as a reflection of official strategy being pursued by Titan as a whole - I think we've reached a stage where it might not be bad to let NCsoft get just a little taste of what's in store if they bury the title.  I don't think we want to release the hounds and go all out, but maybe just enough of a taste to give them an idea of how much anger there really is brewing outside of their office building right now.

I think the traffic that's been popping up today is probably already enough to get that point across.

[Segev]

So what are you actually suggesting be done, eabrace?

[SkyStreak]

How is Carbine Studios supposed to do anything without NCsoft when they are owned by NCsoft?

[eabrace]

If I were suggesting anything at all, it would this:
* Continue to be civil.
* Avoid exaggeration.
* Stick to facts and irrefutable numbers.
* Before posting anything, read it over and ask, "Is any of this simply my opinion?  Can I honestly back this up?  Is there any evidence to the contrary?"  If the answer to any of those questions is not a very solid "No," then now is not the time to post what you've written.  Save that for later.

Keeping all of those in mind, feel free to let a little of your anger start to show.  I realize how difficult it is to be civil and avoid opinion and hyperbole when sitting at the keyboard angry, but as long as negotiations are still ongoing, walking into the conference room, flipping the table over and walking back out of the room won't be helpful at all.  Remember:  even if we can't save City of Heroes itself, we still might be able to help save at least a piece of of Paragon Studios (under a different name, I'm sure) so that we can maybe help a few people get their jobs back and let them bring us something new and awesome to throw our money at in a few years.

Let them see that we are very unhappy with their company, show them your anger, but do not let loose your wrath.

The posts I've seen today on Facebook (linked above) and the "Fool Me Six Times" comic that appeared today were what I would consider good examples of how to do this correctly.

[frostcoh]

Love it.

[emu265]

If I were suggesting anything at all, it would this:
* Continue to be civil.
* Avoid exaggeration.
* Stick to facts and irrefutable numbers.
* Before posting anything, read it over and ask, "Is any of this simply my opinion?  Can I honestly back this up?  Is there any evidence to the contrary?"  If the answer to any of those questions is not a very solid "No," then now is not the time to post what you've written.  Save that for later.

Keeping all of those in mind, feel free to let a little of your anger start to show.  I realize how difficult it is to be civil and avoid opinion and hyperbole when sitting at the keyboard angry, but as long as negotiations are still ongoing, walking into the conference room, flipping the table over and walking back out of the room won't be helpful at all.  Remember:  even if we can't save City of Heroes itself, we still might be able to help save at least a piece of of Paragon Studios (under a different name, I'm sure) so that we can maybe help a few people get their jobs back and let them bring us something new and awesome to throw our money at in a few years.

Let them see that we are very unhappy with their company, show them your anger, but do not let loose your wrath.

The posts I've seen today on Facebook (linked above) and the "Fool Me Six Times" comic that appeared today were what I would consider good examples of how to do this correctly.

*grumble*
I suppose you're right.  People are getting anxious, myself included.

[Vulpy]

I suppose you're right.  People are getting anxious, myself included.

There seems to be more traffic here today than there was last week, too. That's probably a good thing for us. Just remember: even when voicing displeasure, we can still do so in ways that are constructive.

[Victoria Victrix]

My name is Mercedes Lackey, and I approve of this message. 

[Luna Eclypse]

I have several friends that don't care much for our plight and are very much loving Guild Wars 2. I would love to shake things up for them personally, but it's not going to change their minds and it'll only aggravate me more. I've instead committed my energy to the community itself. Tweeting the hashtags, signing the petition, making it to all of the in-game events I can within my daily schedule... trying to maintain my composure and not shoot off my mouth. It does get to the point with all of us where the aggravation overwhelms more on some days than others and that it is why I'm not a mouthpiece for any of us.

Luckily Twitter has a character limit so I can't get stuck on one of my tangents. Nothing I can think of to offer up negative publicity for NCsoft is civil. Heck, if you met Luna in-character, she's very much the same. To be honest, I'm best with informing the uninformed in-game that aren't keeping up with us or are down in the dumps about it; A morale officer, if you will.

I never had an interest in Wildstar and our dilemma doesn't help it's case for me. Carbine should definitely take careful consideration of who they're dealing with... the game already looks unconventional in the MMO landscape, it doesn't really help that there's good chance they could fall victim to the same publishing mismanagement as Tabula Rasa, ExTeel, Dungeon Runners, Auto Assault, and CoX.

[Atlantea]

Well I just posted concerning this to the COH Main boards.

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=297663

Let's see if I get "Stalin-ized".