Author Topic: State of the Titan  (Read 106699 times)

Segev

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #60 on: September 23, 2012, 04:02:31 AM »
For what it is worth, I'll put my storytelling talents into the pot.  If any iteration of CoH can be got up and running, I'll storyboard content gratis, based on the existing canon.  I have a lot of experience in writing in other peoples' story canon (Andre Norton's WitchWorld, Anne McCaffrey's Brainships, C.J. Cherryh's Merovingia, Robert Adams' Horseclans, Edgar Rice Burroughs' Pellucidar, Wendy and Richard Pini's Elfquest, Keith Laumers' Bolos, Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover, and those are just the ones I did professionally and got paid for).  I'm not real good at turning story into mission-arcs--as witness the agony I went through on the Diana Tregarde/Guest Author arc--but I can give you plot, character and dialogue.
That is quite generous of you. I really hope we're all in a position where this can happen; I'd love to see what you do with it.

DrakeGrimm

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2012, 04:04:20 AM »
I myself am not Christian (that ship sailed over a decade ago) but I am not offended if one wishes to offer prayer in accordance with their chosen faith or spirituality.

Part of the reason is because I have seen the power words possess on our world. It's part of what inspired me to be a writer in the first place. Can we use words to create things? Yes. Authors do it all the time, when they craft the magnificent worlds we read about and get lost in. Can we use words to influence or enchant those around us? Yes! A well-presented speech or well-written entreaty has changed the very course of history more than once.

With that in mind, I implore each and every one of you to take the following words to heart.

One way or another, what City of Heroes has created, will not die.

When you get disheartened, when you face despair, I want you to look at yourself and repeat those words, and let them echo in your heart, because it is the absolute truth. What City of Heroes has created will not die.

I won't let it. Neither should you. That's something anyone, of any faith can get behind, I think.
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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2012, 04:05:27 AM »
For those who aren't of the Christian faith or who otherwise don't believe in various deities, we'll settle for expressions of desire for favorable statistical variance.  Or as some put it, wish us luck.  ;)

Tony, I'll pray, wish you all luck, and if you'd like, cross some fingers and rub a rabbit's foot if you'd like. :)

I admit to feeling a bit discouraged...but I also remember what they say... "It's always darkest before dawn."

Segev

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2012, 04:16:46 AM »
When a community loses it's meeting place - true- folks will scatter a bit and things won't be the same. However, if the next thing to replace CoH is several years out, I've little doubt that most of the folks that were subbed will find their way to it.
They will, but I think you've stumbled onto a key component. The community around it will have a lot of cohesion if the fan base finds a new place to gather while they wait. Titan Networks' web site(s) are obviously one possible location, and doubtless some activity will continue here, but events, activities, etc. in support of it likely will be important, as well. Cosplay at conventions, fanfiction (especially in the legal derivative-works varieties), and even pen-and-paper style role playing games run through play-by-post, IRC, or at people's local gaming stores or in their basements would all be good ideas. LARP events at gaming and comic conventions could be fun, especially if you could get limited license to have Statesman or Positron show up. Or even Lord Recluse or Nemesis.

We've seen in this crisis moment how well this community responds to events. This sort of thing could help. (For those who are interested, there is an RPG almost custom-made for running games like CoH called Mutants and Masterminds. Third Edition is pretty solid, mechanically, in my experience, and definitely does well capturing superhero genre style play.)

Why do I advocate striving to do this? Because any effort to rebuild CoH in the future, should things not shake out as we'd all like them to to permit continued (or minimal downtime) running of CoH as-we-know-it, will require an active fanbase to make it attractive, to make it come faster due to earning the attention of those who would invest in such a project.

That being said, I realize that not everyone is part of the Christian faith and this is probably not a welcomed comment by everyone, but please be aware that Christians believe we are made in God's image - and we share other characteristics of God, too. Although we cannot speak things into existence, in a peculiar way, we do have an impact on things with our words. (Self-fulfilling prophecy ring a bell for anyone?) If we can just believe that a solution to saving CoH is possible and imminent, it is not without the bounds of possibility for this to happen. I see and read about a lot of things that happen that were not at all likely or probable, yet they happen just the same.
I know that the more I've prayed, the more I've been able to get serendipitous contacts and discoveries regarding this. My own interests may not be as a player (I can't really afford the time for an MMO), but I am interested in seeing this work, and I hate to witness something so many people love die so pointlessly. And just discovering this board, I've made multiple advances in my understanding of the situation. Even if it is not God's intention that I should have a role in this, I appreciate how He has helped me to learn, and I am sure He will be there for all of us in this event such that we will come out of it stronger. And maybe it will be in His plan that things will work out as we hope. I know, if those of us who do share a belief in Him pray, He will help each of us find a way to achieve worthy goals in this, one way or another.

kgiesing

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2012, 04:29:15 AM »
It's highly likely a CoH-like game would take 2 to 3 years to just get off the ground, even with shortcuts.  If things go wrong, like, oh, say, the economy, it could definitely take 2 or 3 times as long.

While I think that's a reasonable assessment, there are several factors that I think shouldn't be ignored.

1) Starting by replicating an existing, successful system is a *lot* easier than literally starting from nothing.  There's a lot of information, analysis, and planning that went into CoX that would not be lost.

To draw a point of comparison: I once had a hard drive failure kill a week's worth of very intense work (I'm a developer, so this was code).  I recovered from that in half a day.  While I didn't *feel* like my week had been spent in analysis and false starts, it turned out that the raw output was only a fraction of my effort.  I'm not saying CoX would be easy to recreate, by any means, but I don't think this effect would be trivial either.

2) There is a huge pool of people who are clearly willing to contribute time and effort.  I think that could be leveraged.  Of course, there is a limit to how much you can simply throw more people at a problem, but there are aspects of this project that could be parallelized, with the right coordination.

Which brings me to...

Open source/community designed is a BAD idea when putting together a project of this size.

I'm not a huge proponent of open source (I once told a colleague to his utter shock and dismay that I thought the open source movement was a clear failure).  However, I think the main problem open source projects have is a lack of clear leadership.  When clear leadership is established and followed, it *is* possible to make great gains: look at Linux.  In this case, IMHO there is no shortage of clear candidates for project leadership, including TonyV and Arcanaville (many others too).

Which brings me to...

On the topic of developing a new game:  I have reviewed several commercially available game engines, and I've chosen one I like - and it has a similar zone design system to CoH!  But I won't say too much what I've been planning or how far my really small team has gotten, because...

If you're serious about this, you really should talk to Arcanaville (if you haven't already).  She and someone named Mister_Bison have been writing (slash sparring over) implementations of an attribmod engine for a theoretical CoX successor.  See the thread here:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=297175

Read the entire thread; it's pretty meandering and the coding experiment pops in near the middle, but it's still progressing.

Arcanaville also laid out her opinions on how she'd design a successor here:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=297302

... but you may have already seen that.

eabrace

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2012, 04:48:29 AM »
we'll settle for expressions of desire for favorable statistical variance.
Stupid random number generator...

This would be the time to build beyond the softcaps just in case of debuffing.
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WanderingAries

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2012, 05:24:34 AM »
Someone whose ability to make business contacts seems sound actually contacted Cryptic about this.  It seems they are willing to transfer the license.

That shouldn't be so shocking really.  This is a game engine, as opposed to IP--software as opposed to content.  People might be unlikely to let go of IP, but this is a bit like DirecTV licensing their TVtop box.  "I'm moving, I wanted a new box anyway, and the new renter wants my current box.  Can I transfer it to his account?"  "Of course you can!"
This is actually very encouraging, especially for a ground up recovery effort!

As for the OP post, I think the first option, while definitely expensive beyond belief, with the Cryptic software in hand would be the best chance for atleast a patchwork recovery. We could have something up and running that, until v2 can be built from scratch, would keep the game alive. Obviously the few words I just used to attempt to describe the tasks pale in comparison to the number of tasks and $$ involved, I think it the best way to go.

Personally I'm well below developer status, but not everybody in a studio needs to be as Code Cool as Codewalker.  ;-)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 05:33:44 AM by WanderingAries »
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ROBOKiTTY

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2012, 05:45:15 AM »
Open source/community designed is a BAD idea when putting together a project of this size.  The only project I know of that's this large, and has no corporate backing, is the WINE project.  Those of you who have watched it and/or been involved know that the WINE project is horribly unresponsive, and plagued with disagreements which have led to it being splintered into several branches.  Imagine the destruction that would cause to an MMO!  Several competing forks of the same game project, all with different client and servers, and just the act of downloading it and logging in is a hellish experience (anyone try to install WINE and succeed?).

Another problem with community owned is if everyone owns it, nobody does.  Controlling mods and cheating will become impossible, and then the game would lose players fast.  Maybe Apple's model (community created, corporate reviewed content) might work, but I'm not sure.

I've addressed a lot of these in the Sunset forum, but... hierarchy can coexist with open source, and there are ways to enforce unity. Open source does not mean you turn your repository into a public ftp, accept every pull request, or make everyone who asks a core dev. None of the issues mentioned above is unique to open source projects.

Forking is quite controllable in the context of games. The heart and soul of most games are not to be found in the code, but the art assets. Those can be licensed under more restrictive terms to prevent forking of the original project. This has been done to good effect by community projects and companies. id Software has GPLed all their engines while keeping assets proprietary. I haven't seen anyone fork their modern games yet. Planeshift has been forked, but the fork is not even in the same genre (fantasy vs. steampunk).

Private ownership was precisely the reason for the current situation. Finances change, and rights change hands whether we like it or not. If not NCsoft today, it could be EA or SOE tomorrow. The industry is rife with corporations acquiring rights only to bury them. But what is libre can never be taken away.

As for modding and cheating, there are two problems here. 1) Seeking to suppress or control modding is an unwise and futile mindset. Modding fosters and encourages creativity in game communities, while providing utility and content. It's an essential ingredient in engaging the player base and extending the longevity of any game. I mean, we are posting here because folks at Titan felt passionate enough to start modding CoX in the first place. 2) Modding and cheating are not the same thing and should not be lumped together.

With regard to cheating, I don't see how a proprietary model would work any better. Unless you have a full-time staff out there infiltrating communities and scouring the web for published vulnerabilities, you can be sure you aren't aware of all the known cheats out there. Hiding the source is merely security by obscurity. If a sufficiently determined cheater decides to disassemble the executable and finds an exploit, you're not likely to find out. With an open source model, if someone malicious spots a vulnerability in the source, chances are someone conscientious will also spot it.

What I'd be more concerned with is the track record for open source MMOs. Planeshift, Myst Online, and Ryzom are probably the biggest ones out there. Two out of three were formerly proprietary, and all three are moderately small communities as MMOs go.

b) If I talk too much about the plan, there's always a chance a lot of effort and time will be put in and someone with more money and staff will steal the entire thing and get to market first

In game development, great ideas are a dime a dozen. Most gamedevs are too busy trying to make their own visions come true to look for blueprints elsewhere. Implementations are what people look for and copy.
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Scott Jackson

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2012, 06:04:39 AM »
I'd strongly recommend that the seemingly separate efforts of TheManga & company and the Titan Plan Z/Sunset Forum be evaluated openly when the time is right.  Whether the community grants its creative and financial power to an already-formed company or to a new Titan one, those first steps are going to have a huge influence on the end result.  Closed negotiations and secret projects have their place in the world, but they don't mix well with an open community.

dwturducken

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2012, 06:31:45 AM »
I've discussed this with other people, and the main problem--the one we simply cannot get around--is the amount of time it will take before a new CoH is ready for play in the most limited (think Atlas Park, Perez, Hollows and King's Row ONLY) version.  Look how long it took before The Secret World (no relation to my "Secret World Chronicle" and we had the name first) was ready.  It began production under a different name around 2004, changed the name to the current one in 2007ish, and only this year went live.  That's almost 8 years (and 2 or 3 different studios) of production time.  How many players are going to wait for ONE year, much less four to eight?  Not many, is my bet.  If we could get our hands on....oh....20 or 30 million dollars, we could speed that up.  But the reality is this will be, like The Secret World, a slow, mostly part-time-only, undertaking.  People gotta eat, and failing Tony V coming up with a lot of folks to pony up in the six figure range, there is no getting around it, the "studio" we create will be a fraction of the size of Paragon Studios and we would be doing absolutely everything from scratch.

Edited because I was clumsy:

I would point to X-Com. The original game came out in 1994, and fans of the game have been waiting for a worthy successor ever since.  It's been 18 years, and one finally seems to be on the horizon. Maybe that's an extreme example, but games have loyal followings long after their no longer available.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Manga

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2012, 06:31:48 AM »
2) There is a huge pool of people who are clearly willing to contribute time and effort.  I think that could be leveraged.  Of course, there is a limit to how much you can simply throw more people at a problem, but there are aspects of this project that could be parallelized, with the right coordination.

I wouldn't ignore it, I'm just not ready for it yet.  It may seem like I'm being excessively secretive right now, but that's because I'm not entirely sure of the capability to do this at the moment.  When I feel confident enough, and the tech starts to come together, I'll have a demo prepared.  After that I'll be accepting large scale help.  I just don't want to ask for it, and have those people waiting for something that may either take a really long time to get to that point.  :)


Manga

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #71 on: September 23, 2012, 06:55:24 AM »
Private ownership was precisely the reason for the current situation. Finances change, and rights change hands whether we like it or not. If not NCsoft today, it could be EA or SOE tomorrow. The industry is rife with corporations acquiring rights only to bury them. But what is libre can never be taken away.

Slow response is a known and accepted side effect of open source - updates take forever, but at least we all own it.  Unfortunately, for a game, with such a rapidly changing market, slow updates could be the death of a game.  It's even worse when there are dependencies involved - how many times have you heard from the CoH graphics team that they would like to implement XXY but they have to wait for engineering to fix something first?  What if there are 10 graphics team people on an open source project, but ONE engineer, and that engineer works full time and has a family; and says he'll get to it when he can because this is thankless non-paying volunteer job, and we'll just have to wait till he gets to it.  A call goes out for engineers, but it goes unanswered for months.  This kind of thing happens all...the...time in open source.

With a private venture, you know how many people you have, whether they're reliable and punctual, and you can add more people if you need to.  I'm not saying open source is evil, it just has its place.  In a game, it does not have the speed and agility necessary to maintain it.

That said, I do like Apple's model for iOS of community supplied content vetted and approved by a private company.  That might work for a game in order to very rapidly add content without drastically inflating the size and cost of the game's development team.

Among things that can be community supplied content:  In-game 3D objects such as buildings, small items, vehicles, plants; costume pieces, as long as they meet certain criteria; missions and mission arcs; art assets; You get the idea.  Those things that are static in nature, and can be distributed rapidly along with game patches.  Power sets themselves, I'm afraid, might need far more testing than the submission process can manage.  Something would have to be worked out though so for instance we don't have someone design a new City Hall and then get angry and demand it be pulled.

Re: Modding and Cheating -

The problem with Modding is that it creates a difference in the experience of different players.  When you create a world, you can't invalidate things like visuals.  For instance if you tell someone the mission contact is the woman next to the glass train station, and that player hasn't downloaded the glass train station mod or the contacts mod, they won't find it because their contact is a robot next to a brick train station.  Get the idea?

And cheating, while it's unlikely to be able to stop all cheating, accepting that it's commonplace and a part of the game will destroy the game.  Players *will* quit over cheating if they believe it's commonplace and giving lots of other players a large advantage.  I don't believe obscurity solves cheating problems - server control, and validating everything sent by the client does.  Nothing is ever a perfect way to stop cheating, you can just make it so difficult that nobody will bother.  Especially if there's no "profit" in it.

Manga

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2012, 07:03:11 AM »
I'd strongly recommend that the seemingly separate efforts of TheManga & company and the Titan Plan Z/Sunset Forum be evaluated openly when the time is right.  Whether the community grants its creative and financial power to an already-formed company or to a new Titan one, those first steps are going to have a huge influence on the end result.  Closed negotiations and secret projects have their place in the world, but they don't mix well with an open community.

All I can promise at this moment is whichever direction(s) I go with this, I'm going to let it pass or fail on its own merits; I will not start something or present something and demand all of your full support.  If you like it, support it, if you don't, then I'll understand.  I'm used to working within the free market.  The only reason it's secret is because it's not a sure thing yet.  When I *really* have something to present, you'll see a youtube demo.  If you don't see one, either we didn't meet the deadline or we couldn't make it work. 


Scott Jackson

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #73 on: September 23, 2012, 07:11:15 AM »
I think there is a misunderstanding of what degree of "open source" is being discussed for Plan Z.  I'd encourage you to get involved in discussions already in progress there.  The discussion of "how to organize and execute Plan Z, if required" could use a dedicated thread that doesn't distract from this one.

However, that doesn't seem to be a path you're interested in taking, and it's not my job to change your mind.

QuantumHero

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #74 on: September 23, 2012, 07:40:59 AM »
Like so many of you I have faith or maybe its just raw determination.  I don't believe in giving up, life would have defeated me a very long time ago if I had...I get frustrated, I have my cries and then I pick myself off, wipe off the dust and give it another try.  I do not believe in surrender as anything other then a strategic manuever.  I prefer being spunky and having chutzpah to being a victim. 

But then I come from a people who know how to survive...I was a raised a secular Jew, but descend from a long line of spiritual leaders...and music has always been my preferred method of prayer.

So yes in the midst of our most holy week I am praying all I can, first for my family, friends, the world and myself...and last but certainly not least for every member of our community that no matter what we hold this community together...and that we have the "best possible outcome" in our quest to save city of heroes or salvage something, anything from the ashes.

If there is one thing my people understand it is survival against the odds and holding strong to what you believe in.

On city of heroes I have teamed and spoken with people of so many different cultures and faiths and been open about who I really am in ways that just aren't possible in other places.

We ARE heroes every last one of us...and we are on nothing less then a quest to save our world.

Let us save our city...or rise from the ashes.

Never give up never surrender


 
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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #75 on: September 23, 2012, 09:29:13 AM »
A lot of view seem to be missing the point about Open Source... Open Source is not digital socialism, does not imply that you work for free, and is not especially slow or unresponsive... Projects that are poorly managed (whether they are open source or not) tend to produce bad code, and have a slow rate of development...

One should see Open-Source as a way to empower the users...

I'm a strong proponent of open-source myself... If CoH had been open sourced in the first place : we would NOT be in this situation and IMHO, if we succeed, we don't want to be fighting the same battle again in months or years...

just my 2 cents, but I'll gladly help in any way I can whatever is the chosen path (since above all, I believe in democracy)
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Manga

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #76 on: September 23, 2012, 11:07:31 AM »
Let me clarify a few things quickly before I get a bunch of replies upset that I'm trying to take Plan Z off on my own, because re-reading it might look that way (pay close attention to #3):

1) I don't remember if I mentioned before (I might have editied it out) but I needed to learn how to make a large scale 3D game anyhow, long before the CoH Sunset announcement came about.  It was going to be a new game unrelated to CoH, and it wasn't even my idea - it was my soon to be 3D artists' :)  When we saw that a hole may be opening in the socially oriented superhero game market soon, we changed focus.  We still might change it again, depending on how the response is to the demo, or if it takes so long that we miss our window.  Either way, it will be an educational experience, and will eventually produce something cool.

2) It was never even considered to be a CoH clone, only a new game in the same spirit.  In fact, the most difficult part was to think of a way to NOT make it too much like CoH, or Champs, or DCU.

3) The deadline I mentioned is very important, because it's supposed to be scheduled *before* the Plan Z implementaton (and around the time of CoH Sunset).  The idea is that I would take a shot at something that's not a CoH clone, but in similar spirit, and if I can pull it off - and it's still a pretty big if at this point - you'll see a very limited demo.  If it impresses you, or more importantly investors, I proceed with finishing it.  If not, the project gets axed, and Plan Z continues on.  It is not designed to supercede any of the plans here, nor replace them, I'm just working on a possible alternative that may have come about anyway - it just had its timing readjusted.  Like I said above, it passes or fails on its own merits - I do not presume to call it our only hope.

4)  If Plan Z proceeds ahead of schedule, and is capable of producing a compelling demo before I finish mine, so be it.  I may or may not still produce my demo, if only because everything can be reused and recycled when it comes to 3D.  :)

5) I don't hate open-source.  I only say it's not appropriate for this type of project, starting out.

I hope that clears things up...
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 11:14:37 AM by TheManga »

Segev

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #77 on: September 23, 2012, 01:58:15 PM »
TheManga's analysis of the reasons for private enterprises vs. open source for certain projects is quite good. I look forward to seeing what he puts together for his personal effort. Even if CoH is fully saved, it is always nice to see new innovations come out!

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #78 on: September 23, 2012, 03:17:50 PM »
I'm not ready to give up, either!

I would be honored to toss my cowl (Okay, mask. Cowls give me the itchies.) into the ring, too. While I am not on the same rung of the ladder as VV, I'd also like to offer my talents to the project(s) current or future. I'm a writer and graphic artist/illustrator. I can lend a hand with dialog, proofing, storyboards -- whatever is needed.

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #79 on: September 23, 2012, 06:04:03 PM »
I'm also a published writer/author, and would gladly and happily contribute creative content. Heck, I'd be supremely proud to do so!