Author Topic: NCSoft Stockwatch  (Read 594286 times)

epawtows

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #140 on: November 01, 2012, 03:44:01 PM »
I'm not so sure I'd consider it the best alignment. To me, Lawful Neutral means "blindly does what the law says without considering the ramifications of those actions and whether it's morally and ethically right."

Remember the law is made by humans and is subject to the same faults as the people who wrote it. Just because someone is in a position of authority doesn't mean that they deserve it. Lawful neutral characters in D&D are excellent cannon fodder for lawful evil to use for their purposes.

What this is really pointing out is that RPG alignment systems are of limited applicability to the real world.  Can be fine in a game, because the rulebook can say *exactly* what they are supposed to mean. 

V-Mink

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #141 on: November 01, 2012, 03:58:06 PM »
What this is really pointing out is that RPG alignment systems are of limited applicability to the real world.  Can be fine in a game, because the rulebook can say *exactly* what they are supposed to mean.

RPGs with alignment systems also have the conceit -- explicit or implicit -- that there are some actions that are objectively evil always, which the players know but the characters may themselves not know.

(That, or you get things like whole chapters in Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness that read like jurisprudence texts.  "Stealing bread is wrong... unless one is stealing to feed one's family.  Unless one's family is evil.  Unless for whatever reason they are being unjustly persecued even if evil.  Unless they have been legitimately cursed.  Unless that curse is levied by an evil church.  Unless because ALIGNMENT, deal with it!"  Argh.  :gonk: )

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #142 on: November 01, 2012, 04:19:51 PM »
I almost forgot, even after all of that, I definitely think $80 million is an absurd asking price for it, regardless of any other factor.
This is really the crux of the matter, ain't it?

Somehow, whether or not the revaluing itself is legal or even common practice, NC has basically stated that CoH's value, alone, is now worth forty times what they'd previously stated the value of all their IPs combined.  One game just doesn't do that, especially not a game that is, admittedly, rather niche in its market scope and is about to be canned and gutted by its company, despite the fact that it's still operating in the black.

I'd be happy to wait until someone can get more solid numbers (I really wouldn't know where to begin research, or I'd do so myself), but still - where did this extra 78-million-plus in value come from?  If  I were an investor in NCsoft, I'd be asking that question, repeatedly, alongside threatening to pull my investment out if I didnt get a satisfactory answer.

Segev

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #143 on: November 01, 2012, 04:24:25 PM »
Again, I think we need to pull back from the "$80 million" figure; unless we have definitive statements that NCSoft has valued it at that level, we are in danger of delegitimizing our position by quoting it as if it were factually something they'd claimed.

Kaiser Tarantula

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #144 on: November 01, 2012, 04:51:56 PM »
RPGs with alignment systems also have the conceit -- explicit or implicit -- that there are some actions that are objectively evil always, which the players know but the characters may themselves not know.

(That, or you get things like whole chapters in Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness that read like jurisprudence texts.  "Stealing bread is wrong... unless one is stealing to feed one's family.  Unless one's family is evil.  Unless for whatever reason they are being unjustly persecued even if evil.  Unless they have been legitimately cursed.  Unless that curse is levied by an evil church.  Unless because ALIGNMENT, deal with it!"  Argh.  :gonk: )
Regarding the whole alignment debate... here.  Have it straight from the Celestial's mouth.



Alignment ain't absolute, people.  What's in your heart, and what you actually strive for is at least as important as what you've actually done, or are doing.  Now, why the celestial is getting bent up over Roy's quips to his Dad, that I don't get... I mean, last I checked, taunting adversaries was considered a primary function of a tank.

Now, back on topic...

Again, I think we need to pull back from the "$80 million" figure; unless we have definitive statements that NCSoft has valued it at that level, we are in danger of delegitimizing our position by quoting it as if it were factually something they'd claimed.
Rather than pull back entirely, I think we should do some research.  Y'know, get the real numbers.  After all, the idea that they might be... 'massaging' the numbers they present to their stockholders is too good to just let go of.  We just have to get more solid info behind it.  Anyone have any idea where to begin looking for NCsoft's quotes of its value, both for tax purposes and shareholder purposes?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 05:03:07 PM by Kaiser Tarantula »

Flashtoo

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #145 on: November 01, 2012, 05:09:31 PM »
Within the same context, look at the comparison between Roy and Miko - there is huge variance in the ways you can play the same alignment.

You can commit an evil act without being evil. You can follow laws without being lawful - or break them without being chaotic. It's about the way the character thinks and feels: actions and habits are only a remote product of alignment, not the defining features of it. There are so many other factors (ability scores and racial heritage, for instance) that figure in; even a cowardly city official could be Lawful Good with good enough writing behind him.

Ammon

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #146 on: November 01, 2012, 05:42:14 PM »
False, actually. Corporations are very much stopped by what's illegal.
That's not true either.  Legality, like ethics, is largely a non-issue to the modern corporation.  They are concerned with cost versus benefit, and there are a huge number of companies that actively flout the law, where the penalty, of a few thousand, is a minor cost against the reward of hundreds of thousands.  Further, there are companies who base their business on the unlikelihood of being convicted for practices that they do which deliberately and knowingly flaunt the law, but do so in a risk-managed way.

I get illegal phone calls all the time, calls that ignore the laws on unsolicited sales calls, and even ignore the 'do not call' registrations, made from companies in territories that do not have those laws, but fully on behalf of companies here in my home country.  This is an example of outright illegal activity that is circumvented with ease, knowing that the chances of actually being prosecuted are small.

A lot of business operates in 'grey areas' of the law, despite the fact that there is no such thing.  The law is either black or white.  Grey areas are where there is a gap between the black of what is forbidden and the white of what is allowed that companies are able to slip their activity into.

malonkey1

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #147 on: November 01, 2012, 05:55:04 PM »
While lobbyists would kill it dead, I wish Congress here in the States at least would institute a law confiscating ALL proceeds from illegal activity.
BadWolf: "The point that JaguarX is trying to make, of course, is that City of Heroes is like a tree. And Google is like a Toyota...Corolla...? Which would make NCSoft a trespasser, shot by...um, Mister T...which is good, because diplomacy...?"

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Colette

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #148 on: November 01, 2012, 05:56:15 PM »
Just trying to put an end to this debate.

In my experience, the personality, strengths and flaws of the person in charge permeates an entire organization, so that it becomes a magnification and reflection of his or her self. Therefore you will find scrupulously law abiding and ethical corporations in direct competition with corporations that bend the law and ethics to the breaking point. The unethical company will often seem to have the advantage, right until the moment the bad karma bites 'em.

For my part I cared nothing about NCSoft until they cancelled CoH in a ruthless, unexpected manner, having just posted expensive and attractive upgrades. From this, we've all unearthed other examples of misbehavior by NCSoft. All this reflects on the personality of Mr. Kim, and I deduce he is a person whose word cannot be trusted, he treats women shabbily, and he has no empathy for employees or customers.

therain93

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #149 on: November 01, 2012, 06:39:43 PM »
While lobbyists would kill it dead, I wish Congress here in the States at least would institute a law confiscating ALL proceeds from illegal activity.

That would be the RICO Act - Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act.  Property acquired through illegal means can be seized.
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Segev

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #150 on: November 01, 2012, 07:07:20 PM »
That's not true either.  Legality, like ethics, is largely a non-issue to the modern corporation.  They are concerned with cost versus benefit, and there are a huge number of companies that actively flout the law, where the penalty, of a few thousand, is a minor cost against the reward of hundreds of thousands.  Further, there are companies who base their business on the unlikelihood of being convicted for practices that they do which deliberately and knowingly flaunt the law, but do so in a risk-managed way.
I work for a corporation that has very strict policies in place that prevent all sorts of activities on a large and on a single-employee scale precisely because we scrupulously follow the law. While you're right that there's a cost-benefits analysis involved, "jail time" is the cost of not following these laws, and so they're VERY careful about it.

I get illegal phone calls all the time, calls that ignore the laws on unsolicited sales calls, and even ignore the 'do not call' registrations, made from companies in territories that do not have those laws, but fully on behalf of companies here in my home country.  This is an example of outright illegal activity that is circumvented with ease, knowing that the chances of actually being prosecuted are small.
That's sad, but I am certain there are also companies that would make such calls were they legal that do not, as well. Perhaps you should start taking information down and see if you can't find enough others who are also receiving these calls to make those companies in violation find themselves in a few prominent "Action 2 News" type stories?

A lot of business operates in 'grey areas' of the law, despite the fact that there is no such thing.  The law is either black or white.  Grey areas are where there is a gap between the black of what is forbidden and the white of what is allowed that companies are able to slip their activity into.
Technically, if something is not illegal, it is legal. There's no gray area, as you said. The black of what is forbidden is the only area that is not the white of what is allowed.

malonkey1

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #151 on: November 01, 2012, 07:18:28 PM »
That would be the RICO Act - Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act.  Property acquired through illegal means can be seized.

Hm. I wonder if RICO would be applicable here? They'd have to be charged with two Racketeering crimes within 10 years, from What I've read.

Let's see...The "Garriot Letter" Appeared to have been settled without charges, but there's still the apparent overvaluing of IPs. What else?

*"gambling, murder, kidnapping, extortion, arson, robbery...dealing in obscene matter, or dealing in a controlled substance or listed chemical" seems unlikely.
*Counterfeiting, Embezzlement, slavery, money laundering, and murder-for-hire are also not likely.
*Bankruptcy fraud is definitely not happening.
*Drug Trafficking is unlikely.
*No Copyrights seem to be infringed
*Doesn't appear to be any money laundering.
*Obviously no trafficking of aliens.
*Also obviously no acts of terror.

That leaves possibilities of bribery, theft, fraud, obstruction of justice, and securities fraud are the only things that could possibly fit in their MO. I'm not assuming that they have recently done any of this, but if we're looking for things they could be charged with under RICO, it'd probably be those.
BadWolf: "The point that JaguarX is trying to make, of course, is that City of Heroes is like a tree. And Google is like a Toyota...Corolla...? Which would make NCSoft a trespasser, shot by...um, Mister T...which is good, because diplomacy...?"

The internet is full of Comedy Gold.

Segev

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #152 on: November 01, 2012, 07:35:09 PM »
I'd rather keep things civil, if you'll pardon the pun.

By which I literally mean, non-criminal. Pursuing them on criminal grounds makes us look petty and desperate. And while a touch of desperation in the "we're the little guy and we have no power save our voices and our choices" sense is appropriate and true, pettiness is our enemy.

The more we keep courts and law out of this, the better. The more we make it about their PR and how their stock-holders see their management, the better.

malonkey1

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #153 on: November 01, 2012, 07:38:44 PM »
I understand. Simply thinking aloud.
BadWolf: "The point that JaguarX is trying to make, of course, is that City of Heroes is like a tree. And Google is like a Toyota...Corolla...? Which would make NCSoft a trespasser, shot by...um, Mister T...which is good, because diplomacy...?"

The internet is full of Comedy Gold.

Codewalker

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #154 on: November 01, 2012, 07:41:54 PM »
Let's see...The "Garriot Letter" Appeared to have been settled without charges, but there's still the apparent overvaluing of IPs. What else?

Again, if the $80m is real and not something that somebody pulled out of their butt, being unreasonable in negotiations is not against the law. Neither is negotiating in bad faith if you don't intend to approve any deal. Petty and shortsighted, sure, but unfortunately there are no laws against being a douchebag.

If they actually lied directly to their investors, those investors (not some third party) might have a case for fraud. But proving willful intent to mislead in such a case would be very, very difficult.

eabrace

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #155 on: November 01, 2012, 08:00:14 PM »
Again, if the $80m is real and not something that somebody pulled out of their butt, being unreasonable in negotiations is not against the law. Neither is negotiating in bad faith if you don't intend to approve any deal. Petty and shortsighted, sure, but unfortunately there are no laws against being a douchebag.

If they actually lied directly to their investors, those investors (not some third party) might have a case for fraud. But proving willful intent to mislead in such a case would be very, very difficult.
Hmm...

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #156 on: November 01, 2012, 08:07:37 PM »
I work for a corporation that has very strict policies in place that prevent all sorts of activities on a large and on a single-employee scale precisely because we scrupulously follow the law.

I would be very interested to know what company that is, because companies like that are the ones who get first consideration for my business.  I am in know way trying to pull info from you that you do not want to give, but that kind of at least appearance of responsibility from a corporation is a refreshing change from the perception to the contrary that we get from the media.
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eabrace

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #157 on: November 01, 2012, 08:33:58 PM »
If it's anything like the company I work for, they probably only deal with a very specific segment of the public sector.  :)
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Kheprera

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #158 on: November 01, 2012, 08:37:03 PM »
Mine is like that.


8)




What?  ;D

Segev

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #159 on: November 01, 2012, 08:59:31 PM »
Yeah, I work for a defense contractor. The name is not well-known outside the defense contracting industry, but it was once a spin-off from Lockheed Martin. I've worked here since June, and so far, they've been nothing but stand-up, friendly, and overall a great place to work.