Kickstarter (Another "Plan F" idea.)

[uninventive]

If none of this affects NCSoft and they either do nothing until November 30th, or they make a Press Release that thanks us, but reaffirms that their decision on COH is final and not negotiable... that the Paragon Studios/City of Heroes IP is theirs to sink, and they go through with it...

What if we did something with Kickstarter or IndieGogo to fund another game?  (Not today, tonight, or anytime soon.  Don't collect money until the servers go dark AND we have particulars from former/current ParaStu Staffers, of course.)  "The Untitled Matt Miller/Melissa Bianco/Floyd Grubb/Brian Clayton (et al) Project" to raise seed money to start anew (assuming any of the them are interested in something like this?)  It doesn't answer questions (What kind of game?  Who distributes? When is the ETA?), it doesn't bring City of Heroes back, and it doesn't guarantee the next project will happen or succeed (this is 100% risk money... there's a chance it gets stopped/lost on technicalities and contractual obligations and the game never sees the light of day, and once the game launches, no assurance you'll get paid back or have the seed money apply to in-game time or benefits).

But what if this is a possible route to get something worth playing back online?

This might not be a preferable alternative compared to having a saved and renewed City of Heroes game or Phoenix City Open Source which will use COH characters and such. I do want to keep this game and my progress ideally (willing to compromise on my progress and start over if it means there's a game at all) but as they say, hope for the best, prepare for the worst.  And this is something NCSoft can't shut down or stop legally.  (But then again, the developers may be uncomfortable with this outcome and refuse to participate.)

Thoughts?

[Mantic]

I think this is very separate from our efforts, excepting for our loyalty to the core Paragon team.

That said, if  those members of Paragon got together and set up a Kickstarter to fund the development of a proof of concept for another MMO -- I would kick in, out of loyalty and appreciation. I would not, however, expect another City of Heroes, or even necessarily a game I would enjoy playing long-term (City of Heroes was a fluke for me).

[The-Hunter-JLJ]

Not entirely a fluke, though. City of Heroes has some design elements that make it casual friendly and conducive to fostering a strong community. Any MMO designer worth the bits to PM him should be looking at those specific elements and incorporating them into his work. Sadly, almost none are, they are too busy trying to figure out how to entice people into PvP for the most part.

But I digress. The main point here is that there ARE important elements of what made City of Heroes so special that *can't* be copyrighted. The specific implementation, maybe, but the basic idea of things like the sidekick system, a robust and nearly unlimited costume creator, and a chat system with lots of flexibility. Identifying the elements which come together to attract a strong, friendly, creative community might be a useful exercise no matter which alphabet plan is needed in the end.

[Omega Mark V]

This is what I think:

It's no doubt that companies have seen how successful CoX has been in the Super Hero MMO market. IF NCsoft decides to still shut it down, then at some point someone MAY come to them, asking for the IP, as we're trying to get help for.

I would have said "NCsoft may also sell the IP, or create a sequel," but seeing the other five games they killed, I doubt it.

If the development team wants to do a kickstarter, and make a new MMO/Game, I'm all in. But it's their choice.

I love this game as much as we all do, but we can't force the development team to do what we want, if they don't want to.

[Olantern]

See the Legal Considerations thread for some of the many reasons this hasn't been pursued yet.  The simple answer is that there's no entity to hold the money once it's raised.

See the City Sunset forum for some discussion of what people would like to see in a new game.

[Mantic]

Identifying the elements which come together to attract a strong, friendly, creative community might be a useful exercise...

I think you'd have a hard time convincing the bean counters at any of the major publishers of that. Creative gamers are a niche audience. I do believe that we are enough of a market to sustain a low-key product, given the tools are updated over time or opened up to allow the community to contribute easily. But the big publishers are unlikely to put money into something like that when the most popular MMO games suggest that many more gamers don't care -- may even be put off by the idea of "casual" gameplay, or being expected to invest creative effort.

We're oddballs.

More likely other publishers will chalk what success CoH has had up to the theme. And if we are talking about the most successful period for this game, that may be all it was -- all those PVP fans who spiked the subscriber numbers in 2005 are probably playing DCUO now (while trolling us about how City of Heroes needed to die years ago when base raiding was deactivated, or some other twitchy competitive mechanic that availed their kind of fun was nerfed).

See the Legal Considerations thread for some of the many reasons this hasn't been pursued yet.  The simple answer is that there's no entity to hold the money once it's raised.

As I read this, it seems more a "save Paragon Studio" idea than a "save City of Heroes" one. There would be no issue of who holds the money if Paragon reformed under a new name as an independent development company. My suggestion of putting up a kickstarter for the development of a Proof of Concept only, would help fund the starting costs for establishing such a new company. The goal of the fundraising would be considerably lower than the cost of developing and publishing a complete game. It would also be completely eligible for Kickstarter, with possibly more general audience appeal than recreating an existing/past game. But it might not look like anything we, the players, would envision.

[jacknomind]

My suggestion of putting up a kickstarter for the development of a Proof of Concept only, would help fund the starting costs for establishing such a new company. The goal of the fundraising would be considerably lower than the cost of developing and publishing a complete game. It would also be completely eligible for Kickstarter

Actually, that's pretty brilliant.  My only concern would be for non-CoH vets who see the KS and contribute to it expecting something more.

[Mantic]

Actually, that's pretty brilliant.  My only concern would be for non-CoH vets who see the KS and contribute to it expecting something more.

Seems the kickstarter fundraising page would take care of any such misconceptions. As alluded above, though, we don't know if there are many Paragon Studios members (past or present) who are game to take such a risk, rather than move on to a safer job under another publisher.

I'm assuming somewhat that Paragon was more than just a workplace to these folks, and that at least some of them aspire to independence (articles like this also lend to that notion). Going in to negotiate with a publisher as a group, with a POC in hand, along with their history, would allow negotiation of much more favourable terms -- at least on the level Turbine had under Microsoft, retaining control of the property if the publisher decides to pull their support.

Afraid I've no private relationship with any of the team. Anyone who does might want to ask if they're even interested in forming an independent company...

[sturm375]

I'll just put this out there on the record. I recently put in for $100 for Planetary Assault on kickstarter.  I'd easily do 10x that for a project that resembles CoH in it's casual MMO experience.

[TimtheEnchanter]

Not entirely a fluke, though. City of Heroes has some design elements that make it casual friendly and conducive to fostering a strong community. Any MMO designer worth the bits to PM him should be looking at those specific elements and incorporating them into his work. Sadly, almost none are, they are too busy trying to figure out how to entice people into PvP for the most part.

But I digress. The main point here is that there ARE important elements of what made City of Heroes so special that *can't* be copyrighted. The specific implementation, maybe, but the basic idea of things like the sidekick system, a robust and nearly unlimited costume creator, and a chat system with lots of flexibility. Identifying the elements which come together to attract a strong, friendly, creative community might be a useful exercise no matter which alphabet plan is needed in the end.

The key problem now is that WoW is king. The most innovative MMO's came out before that happened, because there was, as yet, no "template" for an uber successful MMO. So companies just experimented and tried anything that came into their minds, and the result was tons of innovation. The moment that "template" revealed itself, all the innovation stopped. And even worse, the definition of a successful MMO went from 100,000 players to a few million, utterly killing any possibility of niche marketing.

[uninventive]

See the Legal Considerations thread for some of the many reasons this hasn't been pursued yet.  The simple answer is that there's no entity to hold the money once it's raised.

See the City Sunset forum for some discussion of what people would like to see in a new game.

That's part of the difficulty.  It's hard to send kickstarter/indiegogo money to a responsible steward (Titan Network is fine for things like buying COH dinner in a one-shot donation, but for a significant amount of cash things get complicated to a point that I think they won't want to be a part of it.)  Such entity would transfer the funds to whoever starts up development again and has to be trusted to do so in accordance with the law and without running to the Cayman Islands or sticking it in their ears and blowing a raspberry.  There's a lot of "how" to answer on this idea, and I'm clearly not well versed in business or finance.

The Phoenix City idea is fine and all, but if NCSoft makes claims that the game rips off their IP and tries to C&D it before a single commit takes place or shuts it down after availability I can see the same mess happening all over again.  But a new IP, new game, and no ties to NCSoft at all kind of appeals to me for some reason if we can't keep COH alive.  As far as what kind of game, I'm not so concerned about the what or the how on onset, just the why.  The business proposal stuff I'm not so strong with, and the developers may have better leads on such ideas than any of us have.

And again, ex-Paragon Studios employees may not like this idea outright and tell us to end the campaign once it starts, with no outcome at all.  (I don't know about IndieGogo, but in Kickstarter, if the goal fails or the campaign is cancelled, no withdrawals take place.)  And they'd be right to do so.  This idea isn't free of risk at all.

As I read this, it seems more a "save Paragon Studio" idea than a "save City of Heroes" one.

Precisely why this is Plan F.  Part "Restart Paragon Studio but call it something else" and part "Shut up and take my money!" in equal amounts.  To discuss this while momentum for #SaveCOH is strong to cover all the stops in case we can't have anything at all except a closed down City of Heroes and thousands of angry faces.  If we can save the game, to heck with this thought, let's do it.  If not, this plan (Plan F) is an option among others.

(Titan Network Mods: if you literally want "Save City of Heroes"-only ideas here and not this kind of conversation, I won't get miffed if this thread moves or gets locked.  Do what you must.)

The key problem now is that WoW is king. The most innovative MMO's came out before that happened, because there was, as yet, no "template" for an uber successful MMO. So companies just experimented and tried anything that came into their minds, and the result was tons of innovation. The moment that "template" revealed itself, all the innovation stopped. And even worse, the definition of a successful MMO went from 100,000 players to a few million, utterly killing any possibility of niche marketing.

But that's the trick to it: prudent MMO requests for proposal are not going to dethrone WoW anymore.  Nothing has, and at this point with PC sales in decline, as well as subscriber counts going down on all established games (Including WoW), means that MMO players aren't so much in the mainstream anymore.  They're enthusiasts; taking on Goliaths are impossible and a great way to close up shop prematurely.  The aim isn't to be on top, it's just to be fruitful for as many as possible: players, investors, developers and stakeholders.  WoW is likely not going to be dethroned as a title, it'll take the whole industry with it into obscurity first as someone comes up with the first "Tablet-compatible" "MMORPG" for Facebook. (The quotes are mostly out of contempt for the thought.)

You are right, though.  Players aren't involved with the bottom line conversations, and ultimately such stakeholders expect a fair return on investment.  That means whatever it has to mean... even if the onset is so overwhelming that no Proof of Concept is possible with our involvement, I would think that exhausting that possibility as well is important to try for, even if it dies on these boards without coming to life.

[eabrace]

(Titan Network Mods: if you literally want "Save City of Heroes"-only ideas here and not this kind of conversation, I won't get miffed if this thread moves or gets locked.  Do what you must.)

If it was an issue, we'd have already done something about it.