Author Topic: Planning: Identifying options  (Read 30219 times)

Sleepykitty

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Re: Planning: Identifying options
« Reply #60 on: September 04, 2012, 08:53:46 PM »
I noticed the article we got on addictiveinfo had a bit of info I hadn't heard before: it stated that Nexon is a major shareholder of NCSoft and has been putting pressure on them due to their (overall - wasn't our fault) redline quarter. I don't think anyone's suggested that angle yet. Where we the community couldn't succeed, perhaps they would? We might divert some effort towards convincing Nexon that NCSoft is making a really bad move, and it might be in their best interest to dissuade them. 'Hey Nexon, you know NCSoft's bad year? Well they've decided to axe a steadily 10 mill profit game instead of the ones that lost money." Obviously we'd use very different words  ;D, but it might work. They have what to lose from NCSoft screwing up, and the push to make a point NCSoft wont' be able to just ignore.

<_< the figures presented in that are a bit off, we don't make them 10mill a year in net profits. Most financial info you'll find for NCsoft is for the parent company, and is presented in KRW, or South Korean won. according to their report last year the net profit from CoH was 2,855krw... the problem with that is, krw trades 1 South Korean won to 0.0009 US dollars, so that number is missing quite a few 0s in it..

For those interested in this, the 2012 Q2 report to investors
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Golden Girl

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Re: Planning: Identifying options
« Reply #61 on: September 04, 2012, 08:59:04 PM »
Well this is more a design decision, not an engine issue. With proper coding you can have a open world just like WoW. You can easily have hundred-thousands of objects in "one world" without "zoning",... just need to let the player know what is "interesting" for him and what not. Because player A is not interested what player B is doing 200 miles away.
You can also have like a map server for every zone. Lots of possibilities here. And yeah i brought jMonkey up because im using it since like 7-8 months now, and got stuck with it because its just amazing. It is definiatly capable handling such a project.

I'm just going by the frequent reports of the trouble that SWTOR is having with a badly optimized Hero Engine - so they're either missing good coding, which would be a little weird when they've had that kind of budget and years to develop the game - or they might have made a poor choice of engine at the start.
With about 1% of their budget, we're going to have to be extra careful that we pick an engine that will do what we want, and won't be insanely hard to optimize.
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ROBOKiTTY

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Re: Planning: Identifying options
« Reply #62 on: September 04, 2012, 09:54:15 PM »
On the bright side, spaghetti code with lots of global variables, if() trees, and gotos is a lot easier to follow in a machine code debugger than object-oriented code with 20 layers of abstraction. :)

Ahahaha. ;D That would still require that we have our hands on the server binaries though... or are we talking about the client?

I've messed with stuff in the past and managed to change some visual effects. Purely client-side but still fun to see.
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Hellfist

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Re: Planning: Identifying options
« Reply #63 on: September 04, 2012, 10:15:05 PM »
I think the unreal 4 engine would be great base and easy to up date 

DeathSentry

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Re: Planning: Identifying options
« Reply #64 on: September 04, 2012, 10:32:49 PM »
I just want to say THANK YOU for this effort! I tried to explain to my friends, etc the impact of this to which of course, they all said "aw grow up, its just a game".  But you all know its much more than that; its a community that I've spent years with, like an old friend, and characters created/hours spent/experiences had with my first and only real MMO experience!  And since the advent of AE, I've been almost obsessed with creating content.

Imagine, the ability to write a story, dialogue, direct the action, develop totally new and customization characters, and well, add music/soundtracks to the story if you record and then share it on networks like Youtube for others to enjoy.  What greater creative outlet can there be?!!

And the community.. I remember when I first joined, it was at the height of the Justice League cartoon and so joined a Green Lantern-like SG (The emerald order) where it was my first introduction to real role play.  I couldn't wait till the end of the work day to join my comrades in taking on the evil villains of Paragon City.

Or with a pickup group, doing the Eden trial starting one night at midnight and finishing around 2am the next morning as we finally beat the Crystal Titan.  Or who can forget the early days of leveling up in the Sewers?  So many memories, such rich content, such a vast, active and REAL community.  And most of all, a development team that responded to our wishes.  Why with this last release (sadly, won't go production), they even added some of the new powers to AE and fixed little things like when an ambush occurs to have it really happen and have the NPCs really take action.

And I was so looking forward to trying out all of the new powersets.. I've got like 21 level 50s and was hesitant to start another and yet, how could I not with so much new content.  So to me, this game was cut off in its prime! Yes, even after 8 years it was getting better and better!!

So whatever can be done to keep it alive or reincarnate it in another form, count me in!! I'd hate to see my friend ride off into the sunset where there is still so much to do!!

Golden Girl

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Re: Planning: Identifying options
« Reply #65 on: September 04, 2012, 11:19:30 PM »
I think the unreal 4 engine would be great base and easy to up date

The main things to consider with an engine are can it handle the scale of maps that we'd be using, as it's quite likely that a player vote on war walls would see them removed in any follow-up to CoH - and can it handle the rendering requirements created by the ginormous variety of costume parts and power effects?
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Sleepykitty

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Re: Planning: Identifying options
« Reply #66 on: September 05, 2012, 12:32:01 AM »
The main things to consider with an engine are can it handle the scale of maps that we'd be using, as it's quite likely that a player vote on war walls would see them removed in any follow-up to CoH - and can it handle the rendering requirements created by the ginormous variety of costume parts and power effects?

o_o removing the warwalls always seemed a bad idea. not so much on the tech end as the lvl range of the zones is all over the place.. there's a few places where it would be fine, but others you have ppl under 10 running into lvl 40 mobs.. not to mention there's space between many of the warwalls that we'd have to go in and fill with things... sure, some of its all ready been IDed for things (See showdown in the litterbox thread, now 8 years old o_o;;;;), but we'd still have extra work to do for them.
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SithRose

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Re: Planning: Identifying options
« Reply #67 on: September 05, 2012, 12:53:18 AM »
I've offered to collect Plan Z ideas on several FB pages and on the forums. Anything I collect, I'm going to send to Titan Network. I'm a damned good editor, and I'm a decent writer. I don't know thing one about actually CODING a game. I'm all story-side, but I'm absolutely willing to volunteer to help build Plan Z. (Heck, that's not even a bad name for it...)

Here's my post to the forums and elsewhere.

Don't stop trying to save Paragon City.

But accept that failure IS a possibility. Pray for success, fight for success...but have a backup plan for failure. This is my backup plan.

I offer a challenge: Write a synopsis proposal for an MMO that contains every feature of COH that we've come to love, but does not in any way infringe on the IP of City of Heroes. Here's a partial list to start with: Flying combat, travel powers, ability to make any character from any background fit into the on-going story of the MMO seamlessly, 6 basic starting villain-groups, costume generator and character creation, the 1 to 3 (or more) ratio, Giant Monsters, side-kicking, developer communication...Add things that you've always wanted to see. Write it like you're writing a Kickstarter proposal.   

We have 3 months. It won't be the same...but maybe we can rebuild from the ashes if we fail.

Please post this on the forums in every server forum. Post it everywhere you can. I'll volunteer to collect the proposals at agenttempest at gmail dot com if they're mailed to me, and I'll send them to Titan Network. (I can't post to server forums, my VIP is lapsed.)

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Golden Girl

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Re: Planning: Identifying options
« Reply #68 on: September 05, 2012, 12:56:41 AM »
I have a rough IP outline that preserves the key parts of the CoH setting, but should avoid copyright issues - although there's also plenty of room for tweaking, just in case.
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jacknomind

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Re: Planning: Identifying options
« Reply #69 on: September 05, 2012, 01:00:04 AM »
This is something that I've been working on since the announcement - it's still the absolute last ditch option though - but it needs to be ready, just in case.

Be... careful.  Something like this can split the community.

SithRose

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Re: Planning: Identifying options
« Reply #70 on: September 05, 2012, 01:02:37 AM »
I have a rough IP outline that preserves the key parts of the CoH setting, but should avoid copyright issues - although there's also plenty of room for tweaking, just in case.

I'd suggest using the GW2 model for the world - open level-based zoned sandbox with instanced private stories/missions. I think one of the problems with COH is that SO MUCH of it is instanced missions, you get less actual interaction with other heroes unless you're in the hang-out areas. Guild Wars 2 really does have some good ideas in that area. (Ideas that their devs got from playing COH and fleshed out, I might note, so I don't think IP on that general design is going to be an issue. Yes, I know for a fact that some of the GW2 devs played/play COH.)
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ROBOKiTTY

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Re: Planning: Identifying options
« Reply #71 on: September 05, 2012, 01:05:52 AM »
o_o removing the warwalls always seemed a bad idea. not so much on the tech end as the lvl range of the zones is all over the place.. there's a few places where it would be fine, but others you have ppl under 10 running into lvl 40 mobs.. not to mention there's space between many of the warwalls that we'd have to go in and fill with things... sure, some of its all ready been IDed for things (See showdown in the litterbox thread, now 8 years old o_o;;;;), but we'd still have extra work to do for them.

Speaking of filling in things.... I'd love to map out the uncharted islands in the Rogue Isles. =^o^=
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SithRose

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Re: Planning: Identifying options
« Reply #72 on: September 05, 2012, 01:06:20 AM »
Be... careful.  Something like this can split the community.

That's why I'm offering to send everything I collect to Titan Network. I'm not a game designer. I'm a storyteller and editor. I'll collect people's ideas and collate them into coherence, and note what options are popular and what ones are things that only one or two people suggested. I can do that impartially. I think people like Golden Girl are going to be the deep movers if we have to fall back to Plan Z. I don't want the community split - Titan Network's already got a very solid movement going, and I'm offering to help with that from community contributions.
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Golden Girl

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Re: Planning: Identifying options
« Reply #73 on: September 05, 2012, 01:08:48 AM »
o_o removing the warwalls always seemed a bad idea. not so much on the tech end as the lvl range of the zones is all over the place.. there's a few places where it would be fine, but others you have ppl under 10 running into lvl 40 mobs.. not to mention there's space between many of the warwalls that we'd have to go in and fill with things... sure, some of its all ready been IDed for things (See showdown in the litterbox thread, now 8 years old o_o;;;;), but we'd still have extra work to do for them.

Don't forget that this would be a spiritual successor to CoH, not an exact copy - the city layout would be very simlar, but with some changes.
One interesting effect of the war walls is the way that they hide any sense of direction, especially a splayers mostly use the trains and not the road tunnels to get aroudn the city.
For example, if you asked a group of players what was the location of Skyway City in relation to Atlas Park, or how the Hive is placed in relation to Brickstown and Independence Port, quite a few of them wouldn't be able to say without looking at the city map.

As for the danger of lower level players running into mobs that were too high for them, that already exists in most zones - they can cover anything from 5-20 levels.
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Golden Girl

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Re: Planning: Identifying options
« Reply #74 on: September 05, 2012, 01:10:54 AM »
Be... careful.  Something like this can split the community.

In what way do you mean?
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Cannonfodder

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Re: Planning: Identifying options
« Reply #75 on: September 05, 2012, 01:13:22 AM »
[Standard Code Rant]

One thing I've not seen discussed is the conversion of CoH to a smartphone/tablet/laptop/netbook friendly browser-based game.  I don't know how it would work and I don't have any idea of difficulty and expense (see SCR above).

I only mention it because of the financial report of NCSoft.  According to an article cited in the report, mobile gaming is one of the places they are seeing growth with an estimated income in 2013 of $13 billion USD.  The online gaming market seems to have the fastest growth in dollars, but the trend of mobile gaming is also on the rise.  "Two things that taste great together" later and you've got an online, mobile game.

F2P seemed to be the trend for the past 1-2 years.  It now appears that browser-based games and applications that can be ported to multiple platforms is where we're headed next.  **shrug**  Makes no difference to me personally, as I don't own a laptop, tablet or smartphone.
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Sleepykitty

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Re: Planning: Identifying options
« Reply #76 on: September 05, 2012, 01:33:50 AM »
In what way do you mean?

o.o well, first you use one paw to get a good solid grip... then you take you knife.. always make sure to cut AWAY from you to avoid slippage/accidents....


I'd suggest using the GW2 model for the world - open level-based zoned sandbox with instanced private stories/missions. I think one of the problems with COH is that SO MUCH of it is instanced missions, you get less actual interaction with other heroes unless you're in the hang-out areas. Guild Wars 2 really does have some good ideas in that area. (Ideas that their devs got from playing COH and fleshed out, I might note, so I don't think IP on that general design is going to be an issue. Yes, I know for a fact that some of the GW2 devs played/play COH.)

>.> not just played/play... take a gooooooddd look at some of the monsters in new DA, and Mot... then go to the Torment in GW1, then look at the monsters again.... <.< its a two way street it is...
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SithRose

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Re: Planning: Identifying options
« Reply #77 on: September 05, 2012, 01:44:42 AM »
o.o well, first you use one paw to get a good solid grip... then you take you knife.. always make sure to cut AWAY from you to avoid slippage/accidents....


>.> not just played/play... take a gooooooddd look at some of the monsters in new DA, and Mot... then go to the Torment in GW1, then look at the monsters again.... <.< its a two way street it is...

Absolutely. (I admit to having barely played GW1 between GW2 beta weekends to get a feel for the lore of the old game...) It'd be great if we could get some of the Paragon Studios crew in on this as a Plan Z with all of their ideas and such. As for story...We've got a TON of great storytellers in the community.

On the other hand, crowd-community sourcing a new game from the ashes of a distributor-killed game would also set a complete and total first for the MMO genre...Especially if some of the tangle of the engine can get reverse-engineered by the tech geeks. (Totally not my forte there.)

(I'm not holding out much hope for NCSoft to release the IP, unfortunately. Their record is...not good on that front.)
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Sleepykitty

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Re: Planning: Identifying options
« Reply #78 on: September 05, 2012, 01:52:00 AM »
thier record so far is 100% kill it with fire. but thats for selling the IP.

<_< licensing it or one of the other options? we're still waiting word, but at best it'll probably be a week.
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jacknomind

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Re: Planning: Identifying options
« Reply #79 on: September 05, 2012, 02:18:54 AM »
In what way do you mean?

If we get to the Plan Z stage (and to be honest, this is much closer to the middle of the alphabet anyway), we're going to have a hundred visions of what City of Heroes "needed" and what the "real spirit" of the game was.  And both of the purist approaches -- design by democracy and design by dictator -- will destroy the community.

There's also, and this factors into my thinking on the subject on a creative level, the Champions Online problem.  Champions has most of the things you mentioned, fascists, giant monsters, etc... but it doesn't have the feeling of history that City of Heroes got largely by making a bunch of really fortuitous mistakes and trying to make it look like a dozen different stories were really the same story.  We can't just replicate that organic feeling whole, and just "making mistakes" isn't going to cut it, either (because CO made plenty of those too).  What we'll need, far more than an author (I'm an amateur author and so are a thousand others) or even one story, is a really really good gardener.  Somebody who knows the art of cultivated chaos.  (And no, I'm not nominating myself for this job.)