The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release

[slickriptide]

One could be forgiven for thinking that was a lie to save face, after all, what are the chances the private server was going to be made public just after it happened to be exposed? I mean come on, its been a secret for 6 years and just as it's exposed it comes out "Oh I was planning on releasing it in a few weeks" BS

Yes... you could also turn the question around. What are the chances that someone who was banned from the server back in November would decide to release a bunch of youtube videos about it in mid-April, right before the devs on the server were discussing a possible public reveal of it?

Maybe it's a coincidence. Maybe Mr. Destroyer Stroyer had some reasons for choosing this as his time to blow the cover of the server operators. I don't know the answer. If he says it was a coincidence, and I'm forced to choose to believe that one statement is a lie and the other is not, Leandro has "cred" here that Mr. Destroyer Stroyer does not have.

As it stands, it doesn't change anything at this point, so it's moot. I only mention it to point out that there are multiple angles to view a story from and choosing the one that plays best with your personal feelings doesn't mean that you've chosen the best or most accurate angle.

[Taceus Jiwede]

Picture this.   Sicily, 194-


No, no, just consider this hypothetical:


Rewind to 3 days ago,  before all this hit.   Leandro makes an announcement that SCoRE has a very special treat for the 15th anniversary so you better have your issue 24 beta clients ready.


Fast forward,  2 weeks, the first announcement is made within paragon chat that you can direct your i24 client to this address and connect.  Later that night, server code gets torrented/box'd and the first server's ip address is announced to the world.


Days later people ask about the story.   "Yeah, we've been working on this for 6 years nonstop.   We've been so excited, it killed us not to tell you all the first time we bootd up and successfully logged in. "




Now,  would any one be screaming body murder about not being in the server?  No.  It's perspective.   And no, it didn't go this way,  but we're 11 days from the 15 th anniversary.   If you're hot under the collar, you may want to consider taking a break.

Yes, if that is true that would have been nice. And I am sure we all would be acting differently.  But it didn't happen that way, and we don't know if it ever would have.  All we know is it has been around for 6 years, it was a well-kept secret, and that it would have remained a secret for an undisclosed amount of time - possibly indefinitely.

Yes... you could also turn the question around. What are the chances that someone who was banned from the server back in November would decide to release a bunch of youtube videos about it in mid-April, right before the devs on the server were discussing a possible public reveal of it?

Maybe it's a coincidence. Maybe Mr. Destroyer Stroyer had some reasons for choosing this as his time to blow the cover of the server operators. I don't know the answer. If he says it was a coincidence, and I'm forced to choose to believe that one statement is a lie and the other is not, Leandro has "cred" here that Mr. Destroyer Stroyer does not have.

As it stands, it doesn't change anything at this point, so it's moot. I only mention it to point out that there are multiple angles to view a story from and choosing the one that plays best with your personal feelings doesn't mean that you've chosen the best or most accurate angle.

That's true there are multiple angles to this story.  And just to clarify I don't hate Leo or think he is a bad person.  I just don't buy we were "this close" to an actual release of the code.  I think like most secrets it probably started out with the right intent, and slowly became something that was never going to see the light of day.  I would happily be proven wrong though, not that I think Leo owes me any kind of proof or anything, dude doesn't even know me.

[ChaosMatrix]

However - we know nothing of the server. It might be running on someone's PC on a cable connection.

Actually not true, there is a lot of information out, specially in the reddit. This was also confirmed by Leandros on a reply to the article and TonyV on the article's comments.

The flood gates are open and a lot of information is coming out through different sites.

[weenus]

Now,  would any one be screaming body murder about not being in the server?  No.  It's perspective.   And no, it didn't go this way,  but we're 11 days from the 15 th anniversary.   If you're hot under the collar, you may want to consider taking a break.

It's video games and the internet, someone would definitely be screaming bloody murder about it but you're right it definitely would have been a very different response from the community as a whole. I imagine we'd see a lot more sentiment along the lines of the people who are genuinely grateful at the efforts and maybe even trying to sympathize with the task of trying to hold this under wraps all these years.

It all comes down to how things are presented and that's why narrative control is so important, when you can dictate the tone and the manner in which the news is presented, you can tailor it to hit the points you need to make, since the news leaked, even without the more sensational aspects of it, it was going to earn a negative response because ultimately people don't like being excluded.

In retrospect as others have said, it does more or less confirm the importance of being so selective with the invites, because even at the level they were being selective, they still got burned by invitees.

I'd like to say that the community at a larger scale could have been trusted with a bit more disclosure but, I've been around the block with alpha tests, beta tests, early access, all of that, and I know how impatient gamers can be, myself included. People would have rioted after 2 years of waiting, let alone 6.

We demand it gets released NOW NOW NOW, and then after we rush people to release something, we want to make heads roll over the fact that the product was rushed and runs and plays like crap.  :roll:

[Felderburg]

I only watched little bits of the destroyer video but wasn't this tool how they were loading the character data back?  I kindof got the impression that what he got was a full Codewalker file format download for every character on the system (I could be completely mistaken on that).

https://www.pcgamer.com/a-fully-functioning-city-of-heroes-private-server-has-somehow-been-kept-secret-for-six-years/ He was anonymously given the character data from the CoH servers.

The person running the Woofers effort was quoted on reddit as having been given that data as well, but losing it in a hard drive crash.

Edit: Due to the migration of posts from "New Efforts" to this thread, the quote above no longer links properly. But it is unmodified, and the original can be found in this thread (I don't want to put the effort in right now).

[ChaosMatrix]

Yes... you could also turn the question around. What are the chances that someone who was banned from the server back in November would decide to release a bunch of youtube videos about it in mid-April, right before the devs on the server were discussing a possible public reveal of it?

Maybe it's a coincidence. Maybe Mr. Destroyer Stroyer had some reasons for choosing this as his time to blow the cover of the server operators. I don't know the answer. If he says it was a coincidence, and I'm forced to choose to believe that one statement is a lie and the other is not, Leandro has "cred" here that Mr. Destroyer Stroyer does not have.

As it stands, it doesn't change anything at this point, so it's moot. I only mention it to point out that there are multiple angles to view a story from and choosing the one that plays best with your personal feelings doesn't mean that you've chosen the best or most accurate angle.

Or you can do a little research, there is a lot of information being posted online, including screenshots of emails and conversations that appear very damming. In any case, there is evidence of foul play, in that case is no longer a matter of opinion, but of fact.

[ChaosMatrix]

https://www.pcgamer.com/a-fully-functioning-city-of-heroes-private-server-has-somehow-been-kept-secret-for-six-years/ He was anonymously given the character data from the CoH servers.

The person running the Woofers effort was quoted on reddit as having been given that data as well, but losing it in a hard drive crash.

Aye I saw it, supposedly he responded to a request for people to join the team and was asked about his character, after which he was provided screenshots of his character, when he posted it on the reddit while the previous mods who were accused of being part of Leandro's circle were mods, the post was deleted and afterwards the contact at Woofers claimed to no longer have access to the data.

[Taceus Jiwede]

I'd like to say that the community at a larger scale could have been trusted with a bit more disclosure but, I've been around the block with alpha tests, beta tests, early access, all of that, and I know how impatient gamers can be, myself included. People would have rioted after 2 years of waiting, let alone 6.

So in this regard I am rather impressed with everyone involved with the private server.  6 years is a long time to keep a secret successfully especially across so many people.  I am not mad at the players who kept this a secret at all, in fact, I am rather impressed how long it was kept a secret.  The ol saying "Only 2 people can keep a secret if one of them is dead" was put to the test here.  That was a lot of people keeping a secret.  As far as secrets go the more people who know it, the more likely it is to be revealed.  So bravo in that regard.

[weenus]

Thats not entirely true, the leak had a picture of the 2013 server specs. (thats right, 2013) The machine was less powerful than what they play minecraft on nowadays and for some reason, 5x the cost.

Maybe the cost is largely bandwidth based?

[Super Atom]

Maybe the cost is largely bandwidth based?

Absolutely not. Go look at renting any dedicated server to see that for yourself.

[ChaosMatrix]

So in this regard I am rather impressed with everyone involved with the private server.  6 years is a long time to keep a secret successfully especially across so many people.  I am not mad at the players who kept this a secret at all, in fact, I am rather impressed how long it was kept a secret.  The ol saying "Only 2 people can keep a secret if one of them is dead" was put to the test here.  That was a lot of people keeping a secret.  As far as secrets go the more people who know it, the more likely it is to be revealed.  So bravo in that regard.

Thats because there were threats involved. Leandros kept charts and tabs of everyone who was in the server, who invited them, who they played with, who they invited. If you so much as leaked, not only would they ban you, but everyone in your circle, including whoever originally invited you and whoever you invited. He also had people spying in groups that checked if you were trustworthy or not, kind of like with the communist scare in the US

Meanwhile they ran the reddit and they ran here as well, any posts were removed and the person banned. There are random leaks in 4chan and, strangely enough, in the wildstar reddit, talking about the server existing.

And before everyone claims Im exaggerating, there are screenshots of Leandros posts and emails about this.

[undeadsuits]

Yes... you could also turn the question around. What are the chances that someone who was banned from the server back in November would decide to release a bunch of youtube videos about it in mid-April, right before the devs on the server were discussing a possible public reveal of it?

Maybe it's a coincidence. Maybe Mr. Destroyer Stroyer had some reasons for choosing this as his time to blow the cover of the server operators. I don't know the answer. If he says it was a coincidence, and I'm forced to choose to believe that one statement is a lie and the other is not, Leandro has "cred" here that Mr. Destroyer Stroyer does not have.

As it stands, it doesn't change anything at this point, so it's moot. I only mention it to point out that there are multiple angles to view a story from and choosing the one that plays best with your personal feelings doesn't mean that you've chosen the best or most accurate angle.

Destroyer Stroyer's original YouTube video was posted in November last year (in fact, it's the reason he was banned) but, and this is a big but, it was flagged by YouTube's algorithm and deleted as fast as it was put up (likely flagged by the score people in mass to squash the leak as fast as they could)

Similarly, the coh subreddit page had an auto-moderation bot that flagged and deleted any mention of private servers, including a post by destroyer stroyer and others who had been a part of the private server and tried to reveal it's existence.

So no, this isn't someone just /now/ leaking it's existence to ruin a public revealing. The existence of the score private server has been leaked and attempted to have been leaked several times over the years it's been fully operational and functioning.

What has specifically changed now? Articles and publications giving people like destroyer stroyer an irrefutable voice that can't be deleted, erased, or gaslighted away. Specifically, these articles and the mounting pressure forced every coh subreddit mod to leave and hide, letting a new group take over, delete the auto-ban bot, and allowing the discussion of private servers to continue for the first time in years.

[weenus]

Absolutely not. Go look at renting any dedicated server to see that for yourself.

What sort of game can you rent a dedi for that would be comperable to a persistent online MMO world equivalent to the size of CoX?

Typically dedi server pricing is tiered based on the amount of slots it fits with the service being significantly more expensive with more slots, wouldn't an MMO server be at the top of that curve?

[Kyriani]

Or you can do a little research, there is a lot of information being posted online, including screenshots of emails and conversations that appear very damming. In any case, there is evidence of foul play, in that case is no longer a matter of opinion, but of fact.

No "evidence" we've seen so far are "facts" yet. Screenshots can be fabricated, Emails altered. And even stuff that isn't altered or fabricated needs context. Context we don't have yet.
No matter what you think you've seen with "a little research", we don't have the actual facts yet... as if it would be so easy for anyone with google to know everything that's been hidden from us for 6 years or why. The hubris is astounding.

I won't claim I know the truth until I actually do. I will not be manipulated by anyone's narrative. You shouldn't let anyone manipulate you either.

[therain93]

Yes, if that is true that would have been nice. And I am sure we all would be acting differently.  But it didn't happen that way, and we don't know if it ever would have.  All we know is it has been around for 6 years,

Yes.

it was a well-kept secret,

Yes.

and that it would have remained a secret for an undisclosed amount of time - possibly indefinitely.

No,  we don't know that.


And many people have jumped to the negative conclusion just because,  instead of a positive conclusion when we mostly all knew that server project had been in the works.

[ChaosMatrix]

Yes.



Yes.



No,  we don't know that.


And many people have jumped to the negative conclusion just because,  instead of a positive conclusion when we mostly all knew that server project had been in the works.

6 years my dude, its hard to think otherwise.

[Eiko-chan]

So in this regard I am rather impressed with everyone involved with the private server.  6 years is a long time to keep a secret successfully especially across so many people.  I am not mad at the players who kept this a secret at all, in fact, I am rather impressed how long it was kept a secret.  The ol saying "Only 2 people can keep a secret if one of them is dead" was put to the test here.  That was a lot of people keeping a secret.  As far as secrets go the more people who know it, the more likely it is to be revealed.  So bravo in that regard.

You've clearly never worked with government secrets. I have. It's pretty easy to keep secrets when the reasons for keeping them are clear to all involved and the consequences of revealing them are dire enough. This group was small enough, vetted enough, and controlled enough to keep the secret damped down quite handily. (Scrubbing and plugging leaks is part of the process.)

The biggest issue here is that I think the reasons for keeping the secret were overblown; we'll see in the next few months whether NCSoft actually takes legal action.

[Super Atom]

What sort of game can you rent a dedi for that would be comperable to a persistent online MMO world equivalent to the size of CoX?

Typically dedi server pricing is tiered based on the amount of slots it fits with the service being significantly more expensive with more slots, wouldn't an MMO server be at the top of that curve?

What they're using isn't something you rent from a company that is preset with slots. They aren't buying a CoD server, they're running their own stuff so they rented server space not a pre-set.For example, a 50 slot minecraft server is 100's of dollars, for 30 bucks you could host your own on a sever box and have 500 slots. The screenshot we have to go off of shows the rental being

10000MHz CPU
20480 MB
200GB Disk
80gb SSD
200GB xfer rate

as a singular box(and it was 1 server, though this again was 2013). This is really inexpensive, My minecraft server is heavier than that. If they upgraded past that, Unsure but the initial server setup is extremely low. It's not magic, nor is it that complicated. What their current needs to run a CoH server is, is not known to anyone but them. However going off on other old spaghetti MMOs, see guildwars/lineage/everqust so on so forth, It's probably not much different. I'm not going to take it at face value that it is because they're not offering any proof to back up the claim.

[Ohioknight]

However - we know nothing of the server. It might be running on someone's PC on a cable connection.

Well we know they were paying about 1000 / month on a Canadian server -- based on forum screenshots on Facebook

[therain93]

Do you really, honestly, believe it ever would have gone that way?

Considering how these people have been helpful in so many ways to support the community above and beyond any obligation,  yes.
Leandro was seeding animations for demorecords.
Codewalker pushed out iCon
P-chat ewas pushed out.


Additional technical information had been shared as situations/inquiries arose.


So, yes,  given a choice of whether or not to give then the benefit of the doubt,  they have credibility because they have delivered and the conspiracy theories just don't hold water.