Agents of SHIELD: Ghost Rider Season

[Kaos Arcanna]

So far, it's not really been bad.

I am starting to feel bad for Jeff Mace though:

Spoiler for Hidden:

Seems like every time he turns around he's being blackmailed or left in the dark by Coulson and his team or things that Coulson has orchestrated.

[doc7924]

So far, it's not really been bad.

I am starting to feel bad for Jeff Mace though:

Spoiler for Hidden:

Seems like every time he turns around he's being blackmailed or left in the dark by Coulson and his team or things that Coulson has orchestrated.

I don't trust him. No one is that nice without a reason.

[doc7924]

Well hey. The machine lady goes evil. Did ....not....see.....that....coming.....at......all.  What.....a.....shock......

[Dev7on]

Well hey. The machine lady goes evil. Did ....not....see.....that....coming.....at......all.  What.....a.....shock......

And I thought the android will have a good reputation like lifting Thor's hammer.

[Tenzhi]

"Yeah, maybe in the comic book version..."

[doc7924]

Honestly didn't see that twist coming.

I though Aida was defeated way too easy so I was expecting a twist - but not that.

I'm sure the magic guy they were talking about was Strange.

[Tenzhi]

Yeah, for a moment when she was talking to the unconscious Mae, I even thought that maybe Aida was really trying to protect SHIELD from some hidden threat.

[eabrace]

I'm sure the magic guy they were talking about was Strange.

That's the impression I got, too.

[doc7924]

Yeah, for a moment when she was talking to the unconscious Mae, I even thought that maybe Aida was really trying to protect SHIELD from some hidden threat.

I wonder if he was planning something like this all along or it just came up recently with the Darkhold book.

Either way - good stuff.

[Mandu]

The twist caught me by surprise too but it makes perfect sense.  Radcliffe started out as such an amoral self centered jerk but then suddenly became mister nice guy one of the gang.  I wonder if they are going to play this up as he was corrupted by the Darkhold or if his plan all along was to get what he could out of the association.

Sometimes it kind of creeps me out how easy it is to forget that somebody started out as evil once you become used to seeing them as a good guy. Or how you can be ready to forgive somebody for being evil just because you first grew used to them as a good guy.

[doc7924]

I liked the Mace reveal. Ties into why they used that name for the character in the first place.
Well done.

[Tenzhi]

What the heck?  Virtual May is the leader of Hydra, Coulson is teaching hate, Daisy is paired with Grant, and Fitz is without Simmons...  this virtual utopia is actually a nightmare reality.

[doc7924]

What the heck?  Virtual May is the leader of Hydra, Coulson is teaching hate, Daisy is paired with Grant, and Fitz is without Simmons...  this virtual utopia is actually a nightmare reality.

Methinks Aida has gone bye-bye.

[Kaos Arcanna]

What the heck?  Virtual May is the leader of Hydra, Coulson is teaching hate, Daisy is paired with Grant, and Fitz is without Simmons...  this virtual utopia is actually a nightmare reality.

I wasn't entirely sure that Coulson was teaching hate so much as opening up a discussion.

[doc7924]

I wasn't entirely sure that Coulson was teaching hate so much as opening up a discussion.

Plus Mac living in the suburbs with his kid. What a horror! 

[Tenzhi]

Plus Mac living in the suburbs with his kid. What a horror!

He probably doesn't even have a shotgun axe.  Any life bereft of shotgun axes is sad and incomplete.

[eabrace]

What the heck?  Virtual May is the leader of Hydra, Coulson is teaching hate, Daisy is paired with Grant, and Fitz is without Simmons...  this virtual utopia is actually a nightmare reality.

Might be even worse than that.  If Simmons and Quake both entered the Framework in their dopplegangers' bodies, is Simmons buried in a grave?

[doc7924]

Might be even worse than that.  If Simmons and Quake both entered the Framework in their dopplegangers' bodies, is Simmons buried in a grave?

DOH!

[Excidia]

this virtual utopia is actually a nightmare reality.

Reminds me of the bit in the Matrix movies where the Architech says the first matrix was a failure because life was perfect and the human mind couldn't accept it.

[doc7924]

Reminds me of the bit in the Matrix movies where the Architech says the first matrix was a failure because life was perfect and the human mind couldn't accept it.

I have a feeling Fitz is with the real Aida, I forget her name.

No clue about May being in Hydra. I knew we hadn't seen the last of Ward.

[Mandu]

Might be even worse than that.  If Simmons and Quake both entered the Framework in their dopplegangers' bodies, is Simmons buried in a grave?

I suspect the grave is an empty one and the real Simmons doppelganger is working undercover with one of the others.  Probably May.

[Blondeshell]

I think they pulled off the look of "zombie" Simmons quite well. I'm guessing the actress must've had a cold or something based on how her voice sounded at the beginning of the episode, and then later she comments she's feeling much better (when her voice sounded normal).

Yes, Ward's still a double agent, but this time he's actually working for the good guys. That's refreshing.

[doc7924]

I suspect the grave is an empty one and the real Simmons doppelganger is working undercover with one of the others.  Probably May.

She looked pretty good. Assumedly they would just take over the 'body' of their counterpart in the framework, shouldn't she have been a walking skeleton?

And I pegged Ward as an agent almost right away. Makes sense he would be the opposite of what he was in the real world.

I also figured Aida was the one with Fitz in the car from last time.

[Tenzhi]

Oh, great... they're going to win with the power of love...

[eabrace]

Oh, great... they're going to win with the power of love...

It's a curious thing.  It can make a one man weep and make another man sing.

[Tenzhi]

Great Scott, that was the weirdest episode of Family Ties ever.

[Mandu]

I loved this episode but not because it was a good episode (it was). The reason I loved it was pure nostalgia.  I own every issue of the original run of What If and about half the remaining issues. 

I loved most of them because they would condense popular what if ideas into a single issue of all action.  Now if Marvel wants to do a what if they actually change the entire Marvel universe, often for the worse.

[doc7924]

Wow. Not-Fitz is one mean SOB.

I wonder if that's all framework programming or its something in his personality he always had that now can come out.

I also love how even being killed (twice), they can still work Ward into the show again.

[Tenzhi]

Wow, indeed.  Fitz makes the rest of fake Hydra look like common thugs next to his Nazi impression.

[Vee]

I was all ready to like evil Fitz better but they kept his lamer qualities too.

[doc7924]

I was all ready to like evil Fitz better but they kept his lamer qualities too.

Well now we see why Fitz became such a Nazi in this world -

Too bad about Mace -

I wonder how the framework got programmed with people like Trip and Ward, since they were long dead before Aida came along.
It's one thing to get the look but they seem to have the same personalities from the real world. (except for Ward not being an evil bastard, but otherwise he seems the same)

 

[Tenzhi]

What's the point of going through the trouble to abduct someone and trap them in a digital world if you're just going to kill them?  Why not just kill them outright?

[doc7924]

What's the point of going through the trouble to abduct someone and trap them in a digital world if you're just going to kill them?  Why not just kill them outright?

I don't think they were there to be killed, otherwise yeah. She could do to them what she did to Radcliffe.
Probably Daisy and Jemma going in 'live' threw off the programming. The Patriot and SHIELD wouldn't have tried to raid that place if Daisy was fake Daisy and Jemma was still dead.

[eabrace]

Probably Daisy and Jemma going in 'live' threw off the programming. The Patriot and SHIELD wouldn't have tried to raid that place if Daisy was fake Daisy and Jemma was still dead.

That's brings up a good point.  Whether or not someone is currently alive in the real world, it's clear that Aida is able to read the personality matrices uploaded to the framework and mine them for details.  Otherwise she wouldn't know what regret to remove, Fitz's dad wouldn't be present, and she wouldn't know to dangle Lincoln in front of Daisy.

[doc7924]

That's brings up a good point.  Whether or not someone is currently alive in the real world, it's clear that Aida is able to read the personality matrices uploaded to the framework and mine them for details.  Otherwise she wouldn't know what regret to remove, Fitz's dad wouldn't be present, and she wouldn't know to dangle Lincoln in front of Daisy.

And as I mentioned - how did she get Ward and Trip's personalities so right. Unless she based them off memories and experiences of the others.

Aida wasn't built yet when Ward was Ward, maybe the tail end of him being HIVE, and certainly not when Trip was alive.

"and she wouldn't know to dangle Lincoln in front of Daisy." I...no...too easy.

[Mandu]

I just wonder if they are going to continue with something involving LMDs.  Technically it should be possible to put the AI Tripp and Ward into LMD bodies and bring them back to the series even after it transfers back to the real world.  I mean throughout the seasons the writers do seem to have been having a competition for how many times they can recreate Ward as a completely different version.

It was great btw seeing Mace finally get to be a real hero though the end of that sucked since I actually like the character.  And I loved the "Snap out of it May!" line from Coulson.

[doc7924]

I just wonder if they are going to continue with something involving LMDs.  Technically it should be possible to put the AI Tripp and Ward into LMD bodies and bring them back to the series even after it transfers back to the real world.  I mean throughout the seasons the writers do seem to have been having a competition for how many times they can recreate Ward as a completely different version.

It was great btw seeing Mace finally get to be a real hero though the end of that sucked since I actually like the character.  And I loved the "Snap out of it May!" line from Coulson.

I wonder if mace's regret was that he really wasn't an Inhuman and didn't have powers unless he took that drug.

Its also possible he's not dead, dead. Maybe if they get to him in time in the real world that can do something.

I was thinking the same about Ward. He was already brought back as an alien entity, why not an LMD?

Though with Trip and Ward it really wouldn't be them brought back to life. They aren't alive to get their minds downloaded into the framework. They are just approximations based on I guess Shield database information and their co-workers memories of them. Though would be close enough I guess. I wonder if they couldn't get the other two that left back for an episode or two - Mockingbird and her boyfriend.

[Tenzhi]

Maybe virtual death is the real backdoor that can't be closed...

[doc7924]

I have to say this framework storyline is probably the best they have had yet in four seasons.

And now that I think about it - if she made a machine that can make a real, human body and place a mind inside, I smell a return of a good Grant Ward or maybe even Trip. Also could be a way to bring Mace back to life.

[eabrace]

And now that I think about it - if she made a machine that can make a real, human body and place a mind inside, I smell a return of a good Grant Ward or maybe even Trip. Also could be a way to bring Mace back to life.

Or the bridge for a Westworld crossover.   

[Nos482]

Also could be a way to bring Mace back to life.

With genuine super strength no less.

[doc7924]

With genuine super strength no less.

If that could be built into a new body. Which is why I think she asked not-Fitz to come with her. Either put Nazi-Fitz's mind into the real Fitz or build another Fitz to put him in and kill the original.

I still say it gives then a chance to bring back a few dead agents. Even Radcliffe, which is what I am sure not-Fitz will dangle in front of him to get him to betray Daisy and Jemma.

[Tenzhi]

This virtual story arc has dragged on too long, and it's going to be really irritating if Evil Fitz sticks.

[Mandu]

I'm actually quite happy with the virtual reality story.  I like it much much more than the first have of the season with the LMD May story.

[doc7924]

I can see one of two things when this is all over -

Use the machine to bring back Ward and maybe Trip and (hopefully) Mace.
or
They keep the framework up and running so all the 'people' in it can have a life.

And maybe Mac stays to be with his daughter.

[Tenzhi]

Well, that ending to the virtual nonsense was pretty bad.  And I guess Aida made herself a body with magical superpowers or something.

[Vee]

A series finale where they bring good ward, tripp, mack and his daughter back as LMDs for a big happy ending seems appropriate. Especially the series finale part.

[Blondeshell]

Here's an interesting little thing I found:

https://moviepilot.com/p/ghost-rider-agents-of-shield-season-4-finale-worlds-end/4260013

[Tenzhi]

Not sure how I'd feel about a series dedicated to that Ghost "Rider" (more like Driver, really).

[Dev7on]

I'm actually quite happy with the virtual reality story.  I like it much much more than the first have of the season with the LMD May story.

I hated the virtual reality story and I didn't like Evil Fitz. He was annoying the crap out of me. I'm glad that's over. I think Ghost Rider is the key to stop Aida in the finale.

A series finale where they bring good ward, tripp, mack and his daughter back as LMDs for a big happy ending seems appropriate. Especially the series finale part.

No more Agents of SHIELD? Why?

[Vee]

I hated the virtual reality story and I didn't like Evil Fitz. He was annoying the crap out of me. I'm glad that's over. I think Ghost Rider is the key to stop Aida in the finale.
No more Agents of SHIELD? Why?

'Cause it sucks.

[doc7924]

Well, that ending to the virtual nonsense was pretty bad.  And I guess Aida made herself a body with magical superpowers or something.

Suddenly she has Nightcrawler powers?

I guess that machine could build a body and give them powers. Bring back the Patriot!

[Tenzhi]

Hell hath no fury like an artificially created godlike woman scorned...

[doc7924]

Hell hath no fury like an artificially created godlike woman scorned...

I don't give her much of a chance. She is human now - even with powers she can be killed. (Unless she gave herself invulnerability)

Unless she still has a back up of her mind in the framework and can just come back again.

[eabrace]

You know what never gets old?  Watching May beat the crap out of people.   

[Tenzhi]

I don't give her much of a chance. She is human now - even with powers she can be killed. (Unless she gave herself invulnerability)

Being turned into Swiss cheese by bullets was only a minor inconvenience.  If she gets shot again, I'm betting her recovery will be nearly instantaneous.  According to the Russian, she's not human, she's some kind of Thing That Should Not Be from the Darkhold.  Which is probably why Hell dispatched Ghost Rider...  because while Hell may not have a Fury, it does have a Spirit of Vengeance.

[Dev7on]

Yo-yo is an idiot. That's all I gotta say.

[Vee]

renewed for season 5 fml.

[doc7924]

So basically she is the X-Men.

She has Storm's electrical powers, Wolverine's regen and Nightcrawler's teleport. (or the same powers taken from Inhumans we have seen).

Also where is the Framework main system? The oil rig was destroyed yet Mac is still hooked up and it's still running.
I assumed it was moved there by Aida.

[Tenzhi]

Didn't they say the Framework is in the Cloud?

[doc7924]

Didn't they say the Framework is in the Cloud?

So its basically permanent then? They can go to it whenever they want?

[Mandu]

Yes they did say the framework was a distributed system so it can never be destroyed although Aida should be able to shut it down if she wants to.

Watching the episode I think one of the things they are setting up for is the return of Ward.  My reasoning on that is Fitz realizing he is Ward.  That all it took was being raised by an evil man and hooking up with an evil woman to make him evil too.  So the members of the group who would never have accepted the return of their black sheep will  be more open minded about it. But I suspect it will be like Bobbi.  He and Tripp will both wind up returning but will be off somewhere else and make occasional guest appearances.  Maybe they will become part of Bobbi and Hunter's team.

[doc7924]

Yes they did say the framework was a distributed system so it can never be destroyed although Aida should be able to shut it down if she wants to.

Watching the episode I think one of the things they are setting up for is the return of Ward.  My reasoning on that is Fitz realizing he is Ward.  That all it took was being raised by an evil man and hooking up with an evil woman to make him evil too.  So the members of the group who would never have accepted the return of their black sheep will  be more open minded about it. But I suspect it will be like Bobbi.  He and Tripp will both wind up returning but will be off somewhere else and make occasional guest appearances.  Maybe they will become part of Bobbi and Hunter's team.

I have said this a few times. They have the machine Aida used to make a human body. I forget if the machine was on the oil rig or someplace else, but even if it was destroyed - Fitz worked on it and could probably make another one. This would allow them to make real bodies for Ward, Tripp, Mac's daughter so he can have her alive in the real world, and anyone else.
Then just transfer their framework minds into the bodies.

[Kaos Arcanna]

Just watched the season finale.

I think they did well with it.

Spoiler for Hidden:

Sad a miracle wasn't pulled out for Hope and Radcliffe.

[Vee]

Spoiler for Hidden:

So agents of SWORD next year i suppose

[Tenzhi]

So was that the Negative Zone?

[Vee]

I just thought it was space, but could be.

[doc7924]

I just thought it was space, but could be.

Well we have the Inhumans coming up so the Neg Zone could be a tie in somehow.

[Mandu]

Spoiler for Hidden:

So agents of SWORD next year i suppose

Spoiler for Hidden:

That is exactly what I was thinking.  So they will be setting up SWORD and possibly introducing Carol Danvers on the show in preparation for the Captain Marvel movie.

[doc7924]

Spoiler for Hidden:

That is exactly what I was thinking.  So they will be setting up SWORD and possibly introducing Carol Danvers on the show in preparation for the Captain Marvel movie.

I do hope they tie in to the movies more. Except for a name drop or like last season mentioning the Sokovia Accords 97 times in one episode, it still doesn't feel like it fits in.
Even with the Inhumans and Aida and Ghost Rider, it still seems to normal compared to the goings on in Thor or Dr Strange and guys like Ant Man and Spiderman.

[Mandu]

Long Tripp and Ward spoiler theory.

Spoiler for Hidden:

There is no reason they couldn't bring back Tripp and Ward.  The Matrix world was saving the people who mattered most to the real inhabitants last.  Tripp should definitely have been at Shield helping with the evacuation and Ward should have been either there or helping to rescue Yoyo.  Neither of them showed up in the episode.  Since there was outside access and at least one LMD printer available (and face it Aida probably had a few backups) they might still be out there.  Maybe the two of them went for the factory exit when the world started vanishing.  Yeah it might have resulted in them printing out in a flooded station but it's not like LMDs need to breathe.  For that matter there could still be backup copies of everybody except Aida.  I can't see her allowing a Matrix version and live version of herself to exist at the same time.

Not that I they will bring them back but the possibility is certainly there to have them back and to have them be instrumental in forming Sword.  That would both keep them around and explain their absence on the main show.

[doc7924]

Long Tripp and Ward spoiler theory.

Spoiler for Hidden:

There is no reason they couldn't bring back Tripp and Ward.  The Matrix world was saving the people who mattered most to the real inhabitants last.  Tripp should definitely have been at Shield helping with the evacuation and Ward should have been either there or helping to rescue Yoyo.  Neither of them showed up in the episode.  Since there was outside access and at least one LMD printer available (and face it Aida probably had a few backups) they might still be out there.  Maybe the two of them went for the factory exit when the world started vanishing.  Yeah it might have resulted in them printing out in a flooded station but it's not like LMDs need to breathe.  For that matter there could still be backup copies of everybody except Aida.  I can't see her allowing a Matrix version and live version of herself to exist at the same time.

Not that I they will bring them back but the possibility is certainly there to have them back and to have them be instrumental in forming Sword.  That would both keep them around and explain their absence on the main show.

I thought they would have used the machine too when this was all over. But since the framework is gone and not sure if that was the only human 3d printer. Probably since they made a big deal in building it. And to be fair - it couldn't really be Ward or Tripp because they were just code made from files and memories I assume. They were not alive to be loaded into the machine like the others. They could bring back Mace though if they had a backup of his data someplace.

But Fitz built it so no reason he couldn't make another. Unless you need the book to actually make it work, in which case...........

[Mandu]

I thought they would have used the machine too when this was all over. But since the framework is gone and not sure if that was the only human 3d printer. Probably since they made a big deal in building it. And to be fair - it couldn't really be Ward or Tripp because they were just code made from files and memories I assume. They were not alive to be loaded into the machine like the others. They could bring back Mace though if they had a backup of his data someplace.

But Fitz built it so no reason he couldn't make another. Unless you need the book to actually make it work, in which case...........

Well there may not be another human printer but there are definitely multiple LMD printers since they kept turning out copies of the Russian along with the Daisy and Jemma models.

[doc7924]

Well there may not be another human printer but there are definitely multiple LMD printers since they kept turning out copies of the Russian along with the Daisy and Jemma models.

That's true. But I was hoping they would make human copies and not robots. But still would be cool either way.