Author Topic: Dark Vs Psionic and Lore  (Read 2375 times)

impiousimp

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Dark Vs Psionic and Lore
« on: September 25, 2015, 03:17:56 AM »
So I joined a game with my toon on dreamwidth rp.

That said I have to revise my powers officially because I didn't describe them adequately.   

Anyway I was incorporating the dark melee/dark armor/dark everything strength over/resistance from damage to Psionics, but now the question is, is Negative damage > Psionic damage?  It sure as hell doesn't have pokemon reasoning. 

So why does Dark power sets resist psionics?  What's the lore behind it?  Is it due to the netherworld?  Which is only vaguely defined in game to begin with.  Anyone have any ideas for this one?  Thanks.

Noyjitat

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Re: Dark Vs Psionic and Lore
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2015, 04:41:24 AM »
I don't think it had any special reasoning other than making it a more desirable to bring on a team during special circumstances. (Shadowfall was it?) I think steamy mist (or whatever) from storm summoning also had psi resistance or was it toxic resistance?

impiousimp

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Re: Dark Vs Psionic and Lore
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2015, 06:16:00 AM »
going to guess toxic but that makes sense.

but why did invulerability have a weakness to psychics?
does negative netherworld energy just naturally block out the psychic power?

Auroxis

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Re: Dark Vs Psionic and Lore
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2015, 07:36:03 AM »
There's lore precendece in other comic book IP's where heroes deemed as invulnerable/extremely hard to kill are still vulnerable to psionic attacks.

As for negative energy blocking out psychic power, it's more about the mind being shrouded in darkness making it less vulnerable to psionic attacks. See the description for Obsidian Shield:

Quote
You can create a special Obsidian Shield that grants good resistance to Psionic damage. With your mind enshrouded in darkness you are protected from Sleep, Fear, Hold and Disorient attacks.

impiousimp

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Re: Dark Vs Psionic and Lore
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2015, 07:51:50 PM »
What about from physical attacks, like getting out of holds and stuff?  Is there a physical aspect to it when fending off telekinetic powers?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 09:12:48 PM by impiousimp »

chuckv3

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Re: Dark Vs Psionic and Lore
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2015, 09:34:59 PM »
What about from physical attacks, like getting out of holds and stuff?  Is there a physical aspect to it when fending off telekinetic powers?

I'm sure Arcana will explain at length pretty soon ;D, but here's grossly simplified version:

Most Psi attacks were a mix of Psionic and other damage types (S/L, E/NE, F/C) and of a specific attack type (melee, ranged or AoE). The math always used your highest defense and resist (damage type or attack type) when checking against a combined attack. There were RARE instances of purely Psionic damage (not mixed) (where other damage type defense and resist could not intercede) and some were also not considered melee, ranged or AoE (where your attack type defense and resists would not intercede). Some very rare were Psi-only and not defined as an attack type, and only your psi defense and resists would intercede in these cases. These were typically (always?) seen on AVs and higher.

Status effects (sleep, hold, etc) if they were combined with something else, could be defended against (based on the "other" damage type, but if they hit, any "resistance" you had to the status in question really just lessened the duration.

Felderburg

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Re: Dark Vs Psionic and Lore
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2015, 11:09:05 PM »
tldr: My personal interpretation, based on reading the power set descriptions: Psionic powers do have physical manifestations, but they rely on shredding minds (which would bypass all physical invulnerability). Dark power sets use the Netherworld for protection, an otherworldly power that is incomprehensible to normal minds, and therefore can't be penetrated by psionics, who are used to dealing with normal minds of this world.

Regarding physical protection, the Dark Armor page does say that it offers no protection from knockback, and little energy protection (compared to negative energy). Since knockback is a very physical thing, I would say that ***conceptually*** the Dark Armor set is geared more towards general protection from physical attacks, but is much better at protecting from otherworldly attacks, because of its own otherworldly nature (underlined for the next paragraphs). Actual game mechanics may differ, of course.

What the psionic sets seem to have in common, as far as lore goes, is that they are devastating against living beings, but not so much against things like robots. They can also have physical manifestations, as seen by the physical bolts, knockback / down effects, the blades of Psionic Melee, and various salvage items that are literal pieces of psychic power that has manifested physically. This is reflected in the mechanics that chuckv3 mentioned - psionic attacks are paired with other effects.

Now, in order to use any sort of psychic or psionic or mental attack, you need to have a pretty strong mind. However, even the strongest of minds can crack under the pressure of unnatural and otherworldly situations. It seems to me that this would be the cause of darkness's ability to resist psionic attacks. Because a darkness user has enshrouded themselves in an otherworldly power that is incomprehensible and perhaps even madness inducing to sane people of this world, the mental capability of a psionics user is unable to penetrate the shield, because they are used to dealing with the minds of living beings of this world.

All of the dark power sets mention the "Netherworld," although Soul Mastery and Necromancy focus on using actual souls of the dead or undead specifically, and Demon Summoning of course uses demons, while the others talk generically about the Netherworld. You are correct in saying that it is never really explored in depth. A search for "netherworld" on the wiki reveals lots of pages that seem to imply it is where ghosts and demons go / come from. The pre-Going Rogue version of Black Swan had a connection to it, and may have even been from "Shadow Earth" inside the Netherworld. The new version does as well, but her "Shadow Earth" is a thing of her own creation, rather than something inherent to the Netherworld (and the mission from Portal Corp. where you visit one of many "Shadow Worlds" was retconned away with GR). I personally prefer the new explanation for Shadow Earth, since it makes the Netherworld seem less like a parallel dimension and more like a single dimension of lost souls and demons or something that exists through all versions of Earth.

Of note, Lore AMA 181 (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted#181) mentions the Netherworld, and seems to confirm, ish, this general explanation. It's sort of a purgatory type place, where dead souls go before they die. Of course, per missions where demons come from the Netherworld, and Lore AMA 153 (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted#153) it is also a place where there are native inhabitants, who are typically malevolent.

For reference, here are the dark power sets on the wiki:

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Dark_Armor
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Darkness_Manipulation
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Darkness_Affinity
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Dark_Blast
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Darkness_Control
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Dark_Melee
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Darkness_Mastery
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Dark_Mastery
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Dark_Miasma
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Necromancy
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Soul_Mastery
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Demon_Summoning

And the psionics, and some salvage:

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Psionic_Mastery
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Psychic_Blast
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Psionic_Melee
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Psionic_Assault
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Mental_Manipulation
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Mind_Control
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Psychic_Mastery
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Psionic_Ectoplasm_Salvage
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Psionic_Manifestation_Salvage
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 11:19:09 PM by Felderburg »
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Lord Nightmare

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Re: Dark Vs Psionic and Lore
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2015, 11:24:11 PM »
So basically Dark Powers could be related to Cthulhu. Hence the Fear effect being a key feature.

Felderburg

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Re: Dark Vs Psionic and Lore
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2015, 01:14:30 AM »
So basically Dark Powers could be related to Cthulhu. Hence the Fear effect being a key feature.

More or less. The darkness powers certainly seem to rely on that idea, where even "a glimpse into the terrifying netherworld renders [enemies] held." So for game mechanics, you get fears and holds as a result, and resistance to psionics.

Also: "The Netherworld is one scary place, and with but a touch, you can give your enemy a glimpse into this dark world. This will cause them to helplessly tremble in Fear."

It is worth noting that Warshades also do Negative Energy damage to their foes, so Negative Energy is not, by itself, only associated with the Netherworld. I'm not sure if that was conceptually intended to be the same type of damage, or if it was convenient for Warshades, who manipulate "dark energy," to just use the existing Negative Energy damage type. I would lean towards it being a matter of convenience, because the implications of Kheldians being able to tap into the Netherworld get rather interesting (although the whole idea of using souls, or energy from souls, is not necessarily incompatible between the two power sets (darkness and Kheldian), I rather prefer to leave them separate).

What's even more interesting is the wording of Demon Summoning, which says you are able to: "Conjure demons from the depths of the netherworld and beyond." And beyond?? That's VERY interesting. There's also a number of references to hellfire, unholy energies, and "the Abyss." Akarist, in Cadao Kestrel's arc, does talk about Hell, and demons being from there, but it is one thing to have an Oranbegan talk of Hell, and quite another to have player character powers derived from it.

But, of course, the question becomes: is the Netherworld actually "Hell?" Given the answers to AMA questions in my previous post, I would say that it is not. Yes, dead souls go there, but as the purpose of the Drudges in Night Ward shows, they are not meant to stay there. And Baron Zoria mentions that many of the original human Circle of Thorns had their souls "flung to the void." So there are other places than the Netherworld for souls to go.

However, given the terrifying nature of the Netherworld, and the fact that there are native beings of some sort, generally malevolent, I would say that it more or less qualifies as what people of the CoH universe would understand as "Hell."  It also seems to me that souls are used as currency there, or taken to be used in order to empower various Netherworld beings. So not only is it a place of madness and terror, but your literal very soul is all but powerless there, and often subject to the whims of the denizens of the Netherworld. But it is not a Hell born of a particular religious paradigm, in the world of CoH - it is merely a stopping point for souls before they move on to... somewhere else.... which is presumably left undefined to allow multiple religions to flourish without angering zealous players.

Of course, the Dimensionless and the nature of the universe being revealed do sort of put the lie to this particular ambiguous and wishy washy "where do souls go?" question. Eventually, the nature of the universe would have been explored, via the Incarnate story line (see Lore AMA for more). Furthermore, the "Angels" in game were Dimensionless (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted#137) and spoke of the heavens, and there is even one fallen angel whose description speaks directly of "divinity:" http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Dark_Sabaoth

This all becomes very interesting when you read Lore AMA 292: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted#292 This is pretty much an overview of what the "true" nature of the CoH cosmology would have been described as. There is enough leeway in here to fit our own religions in (arguably) but it doesn't mention souls... but I would argue that answer 59 (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted#59) gives us a glimpse into that. It is already clear, given the nature of demons to use souls as power sources, and some other powers in game, that souls have power. It could very well be that souls are the manifestation of power that all life generates, as mentioned in 59, and that the Netherworld just stores them before they get reabsorbed into Wells, or used to summon demons, or brought back by necromancy, or used for darkness powers...

Now, I should note that not all darkness powers use souls directly (in fact, only Soul Mastery directly mentions it, as far as I can tell). Rather, they use the power of the Netherworld itself, which is only the place where souls go. Sure, you can use souls, but I'm sure that heroic characters wouldn't want to do that.



...none of which really necessarily applies to the original question here. I should also note that this is pretty much all just my personal take on things, as I interpret the game and Lore AMA. Even with the AMA, which may be discounted by some, there just isn't enough hard evidence for anything involving the Netherworld or souls or demons to really truly confirm what I'm saying.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2015, 09:59:26 PM by Felderburg »
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

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