Enough with the nerfs you unimaginative bastards

[Xev]

In case you don't know already it looks as though a hard nerf for Int recharge and gear recharge is coming

Man I am so sick of them nerfing anything fun (crits....recharge...toys... gear...) and not giving anything back. People spent a lot of time on those Justice Masks of Speed that are getting nerfed into the ground and people spent a LOT of time tweaking their builds based on cooldown whether they use Int or not.

Enough with the nerfs already. The game doesn't need to be made continually smaller to be fun or to appease people who can't be impressive without making everyone around them less impressive. Use your imagination, CO. Find ways to make players continually Bigger, not continually Smaller. Would be my message.

*I* just spent months on an Int build. I spent a year on another build that was hard to get some decent CD on. I spent a crapton of G's (at the time it was) to get a vehicle & gear it to run their rehashed rampages due to no one wanted you in their PQ without a vehicle and they nerfed mine so bad just weeks after I got it I have never used it again and have no desire whatsoever to. They nerfed the Bejeezus out of the first toon I started the game with and luved when they nerfed the Dex tree and dodge gear. The device nerf, although justified due to why in the world was it ever like that in the beginning anyway, hey, that was huge too. It took away a lot of people's fun/G's (time)/goals (fun & time). All these nerfs did/will.

It's time to give something back, people, and Gravity Driver doesn't cut it. Take take take is BS.

Someone in Trade actually said the nerfs are good because they continually make players reliant on other players and therefore it promotes teaming. Lemme tell ya what promotes teaming. More interesting teaming experiences. What nothing but nerfs with no giveback promotes is people quitting your game and playing something else.

I would say a good 95 - 99% of my online playing time is in teams. It isn't because I need to team it's because I LIKE to team. A lot of that has to do with showing off Unbroken Builds and Equipment. Forcing people to team used to work, but, like having to level all the way to 30 by yourself or having to earn, not buy, in-game rewards - those days are gone. These days if you want people to team you have to make it fun, not required.

Yes, I ranted. I normally don't and won't be making it a habit. I have no plans to but I'll switch games and make CO a backup game to keep a hopeful eye on before I have more negative things to say/feel about the game than positive. Playtime I try to keep fun and positive due to, well, it's playtime duh!  : )

[LaughingAlex]

You tell em.  BUt don't be surprised if crossy turns the more corrupt GM's against you so you can't ever say anything on their forums.

Edit: The buttheads saying nerfs is promoting teaming are those who want their pure healers to have a use in places they otherwise wouldn't have a use, like solo missions.

[Xev]

Hehe bravo for not charging in full force, LA  : )

I complained in-game some, ok a lot..., too. It's pretty well out of my system.

Every one of these nerfs has been bad timing for me due to I have put a lot of time (not exploiting) into the things they are nerfing and then it goes away.

Vehicles are a perfect example due to how big of a deal it was for me to save and buy one and then I used it like 5 times and then no one cared anymore if you had one in Rampages - which .. is .. the .. only .. reason I bought the damn thing...

And now after months I finally come up with an Int build due to I just always wanted one but never could come up with something that made me happy. And it does make me happy. Deeps has hit the bench for the first time in a solid year! And now they're nerfing Int and recharge gear into the ground like they did with Dex and Dodge when I was playing my Unleashed and just getting into the game. Deeps's build is going to take a hit too, I dunno how hard.

The device nerf hit me too but mostly just in my dreams due to I couldn't afford many of the better devices yet hehe. Still tho, dreams are good stuff! Dangit..

The unimaginative bastard comment from the title is due to in my history with CO there have been Zero buffs but there has been a stream of game changing nerfs. 

The day I can't rant a little and get over it is the day I start playing something else. I'm not gonna dueling banjos with ya on CO hammering LA  : )

If they jack my dps builds I'm gonna finally retcon into a new Electricity dps build I've been wanting to try that should be ok even with low recharge and see how that works out. As long as I have one good dps build, I'm good. We should get free retcons out of this mess at least.

[doc7924]

I remember all the nerfs over 8 years of COH. It's nothing new. You get used to it.

My first big main was a regen scrapper and they got nerfed to heck over the years with the constant changes.
And most of it had to do with PVP. Which sucks because before the game had PVP and they talked about adding they said in no way would PVP affect the main game.

[Xev]

I remember all the nerfs over 8 years of COH. It's nothing new. You get used to it.

This is a completely rational and logical sounding statement.


Yet, after over two decades of nerfs big and small, and not even being Soooooo invested in the game and thinking I was above and beyond what happened in a silly game at this point of my being an online gamer, I flipped out.

[LaughingAlex]

I remember all the nerfs over 8 years of COH. It's nothing new. You get used to it.

My first big main was a regen scrapper and they got nerfed to heck over the years with the constant changes.
And most of it had to do with PVP. Which sucks because before the game had PVP and they talked about adding they said in no way would PVP affect the main game.

You have no idea just how horrible the nerfs for CO are though, doc7924.  CO's game balance has always been about as non-existant as it gets.  What the recharge nerf will do, in reality, is make everyone toss intelligence, making stealth builds popular in pvp.  The reason being that intelligence will be the way it was when it sucked; sure, you got cost reduction but your better off just increasing your energy pool(recovery/Endurance).  Recharge from intelligence in the old days was outright worthless.

Which means spending alot more time energy building.  This is a massive offense nerf.  But the scrubs wanted this nerf because they couldn't tolerate people using certain defensive powers, when it was the specific defensive powers that should have been adjusted instead.  They hate that people didn't need them to heal them endlessly.  Or hated that in pvp they had a hard time actually killing someone when, news flash, pvp in the old days was just as difficult.

This will also make molecular self-assembly very very worthless, as that was entirely dependent on cooldowns.

And unlike pvp 2.0 in city of heroes, this effects the entire game.  Including most certainly non-pvpers.

Thing is City of heroes had it's buffs to, and ninety percent of the time, the nerfs it got were very responsible, like a specific power and whatnot.  The only other major huge game changing nerf was enhancement diversification and the defense patch which were Cryptic Studios nerfs.  But Paragon studios was other than pvp 2.0, extremely tame about nerfing things, they mostly buffed things.

Champions online is just getting what city of heroes would have gotten had city of heroes kept with cryptic studios.  If city of heroes had this level of nerfs, and litterally no buffs anywhere, I'd not have stuck with it for the years I had.  The other thing, is CO shouldn't be launching nerfs like this, because without anything being buffed that is interesting, the reality is the game is crippled by a population thats ultimately looking for excuses to quit and leave.

And everyone but the trolls who asked for this nerf have been looking for those excuses for a long time :/.

City of heroes on shutdown had over a hundred thousand subscribers and peaked up to 200,000.  Champions online I bet has less than one thousand left.

[LaughingAlex]

The intelligence/recharge nerf also is going to make a HUGE HUGE number of other powers that were weak before even more worthless.  Some examples:

Mini mines
Rocket Launcher
Force eruption
*just about every attack with a cooldown*
*Almost all archery attacks*

I could actually just go in the game right now, and get a list of every attack in CO that has a cooldown that was made marginally usable with high cooldown reduction and tick them back to useless.  Because well they were in the old days.

[Mistress Bloodwrath]

It's moments like this that I wonder if Cryptic should simply be limited to designing games and letting others maintain them, because what I've noticed is Cryptic is generally lousy at maintaining a game.

[Xev]

I totally over-reacted on this and was ranting on something that hadn't even hit PTS yet. If anyone else did that I would be rolling my eyes.

Apols, apols..

It's a fun game. I have fun playing it. There are fun people in the game every time I log in and I never have a problem (some times are busier than others of course..) finding people to play with. That's doing pretty good.

Well, and, hey, I play for free what in the world do I have to complain about anyway. Am I disappointed about Recharge still? Hell yeah but so what. I nerfed myself worse when my mouse buttons started going out and my screen started shrinking.. LOL. You wanna talk nerfs!

And yes, Mistress B., I think CO will probably go in the Guinness Book of World Records for the Most Played, Least Updated Game Ever. Sidenote: WHILE delivering a steady flow of bone crushing nerfs. It's just part of the magic that is CO..

I went ape when I had my first rubberbanding issues with CO. Now when someone complains I think they're a newb as I pinball myself past them and fire off another Conflag. Again, CO magic.

[doc7924]

You have no idea just how horrible the nerfs for CO are though, doc7924.  CO's game balance has always been about as non-existant as it gets.  What the recharge nerf will do, in reality, is make everyone toss intelligence, making stealth builds popular in pvp.  The reason being that intelligence will be the way it was when it sucked; sure, you got cost reduction but your better off just increasing your energy pool(recovery/Endurance).  Recharge from intelligence in the old days was outright worthless.

Which means spending alot more time energy building.  This is a massive offense nerf.  But the scrubs wanted this nerf because they couldn't tolerate people using certain defensive powers, when it was the specific defensive powers that should have been adjusted instead.  They hate that people didn't need them to heal them endlessly.  Or hated that in pvp they had a hard time actually killing someone when, news flash, pvp in the old days was just as difficult.

This will also make molecular self-assembly very very worthless, as that was entirely dependent on cooldowns.

And unlike pvp 2.0 in city of heroes, this effects the entire game.  Including most certainly non-pvpers.

Thing is City of heroes had it's buffs to, and ninety percent of the time, the nerfs it got were very responsible, like a specific power and whatnot.  The only other major huge game changing nerf was enhancement diversification and the defense patch which were Cryptic Studios nerfs.  But Paragon studios was other than pvp 2.0, extremely tame about nerfing things, they mostly buffed things.

Champions online is just getting what city of heroes would have gotten had city of heroes kept with cryptic studios.  If city of heroes had this level of nerfs, and litterally no buffs anywhere, I'd not have stuck with it for the years I had.  The other thing, is CO shouldn't be launching nerfs like this, because without anything being buffed that is interesting, the reality is the game is crippled by a population thats ultimately looking for excuses to quit and leave.

And everyone but the trolls who asked for this nerf have been looking for those excuses for a long time :/.

City of heroes on shutdown had over a hundred thousand subscribers and peaked up to 200,000.  Champions online I bet has less than one thousand left.

Well I admit I am not fully versed in CO and all the details like I was with COH. I just play free with the AT's they give and just play casually,  only because I miss playing a super hero. But I really am not into the game as I was with COH, so the nerfs I probably wouldn't have noticed.

[Angel Phoenix77]

Well I admit I am not fully versed in CO and all the details like I was with COH. I just play free with the AT's they give and just play casually,  only because I miss playing a super hero. But I really am not into the game as I was with COH, so the nerfs I probably wouldn't have noticed.

I agree with Alex, co has next to no balance. When you are able to pull the entire room that is including arch villains and only getting down to half health before defeating all is a bit over done.

[Xev]

First off, I'm embarrassed that this thread is still alive. I was tired and stressed and after 8 days of not playing I thought I was going to come back to this nerf but it hadn't even made it to the PTS.

I agree with Alex, co has next to no balance. When you are able to pull the entire room that is including arch villains and only getting down to half health before defeating all is a bit over done.

You think Int and cdr gear allows that?

It's not just Int and cdr that allows players to do things that make you wet your pants. It's the player.

This song never changes.. I've been listening to it since over 30 years ago when I was beating stand up consoles in video arcades and people were telling me 'oh, once you have secret X figured out, you can play forever on a quarter. Uh huh.. Same person, I tell him to take my console while I go get some food from the vending machine due to I've been playing for hours already to get on the high score board. I hadn't made it halfway to the machine and he'd lost my game.

Players will just find something else to trash the game with. If there ever comes a day you can't do this the game will probably be too rigid and boring to play anyway.

There are two types of players, I have found, when it comes to players doing things above and beyond. Those that say 'wow, I wanna be like that!' and those that get themselves all in a tizzy over it. This is where your true game balance comes in. We have to keep those tears down.

Wait, they will nerf something that you enjoy a lot someday and not give you anything in return. Then you'll get it.

---

Something else..  I came up with cycling AO's and AD's on my own. Yeah, people had probably been doing it for longer than a YEAR now (that's how long I have cycled AO's - I could have cycled AD's but I didn't/don't because it is less effective for this toon) but it was an idea I came up with myself. Recharge and power boosts are just something I always go for so it would be natural I would stumble onto this. Due to I like speed, I spent a lot of time and earned myself 4 Justice masks of Speed - not due to I like to cycle anything. Now, allllll the time I spent on those masks, which come from relatively new content I will add, are going to be worthless with no replacement. The mods I put in them weren't cheap either and I am throwing those away too.. So now it's not only some builds I have to rethink but all the time I wasted on gear, too, and those Rampages are Way newer than this 'problem'.

It's not right to punish people for playing your new content ffs! Especially what passes for high-end/endgame content. hehe I mean, come on..

Ah well, whatever. I'm sorry I called them bastards and it *is* just a game. A game we can play and enjoy or play something else. I'm sure not gonna make a habit of spending my playtime complaining about what I play.

Also, this isn't aimed at you at all, Angel, I'd had this conversation in my head already after reading some similar Zone comments as your post and biting my tongue.

[LaughingAlex]

Whats really really bad, and Angel Phoenix77 is on the same page here, is that the changes like the one thats bothering you Xev, the only people who seem to think it brings better balance to the game are those who either pvp and can't stand people using such and such, or those who play pve and can't stand people using such and such.  The tryhards always seem to be dictating the balance but the changes never ever actually balance the game.  Ninety percent of the time, the balance worsens.

Hell someone already asked to nerf arcane clarity to uselessness in another thread because it enables people to maintain constant AD's.  It's supposed to be a super good support buff and they want it to be useless.  It really seems to me these tryhards really don't want anyone playing anything thats outside of their very narrow spectrum of play, which appears to me;

Healer/tank/damage everywhere everyone goes in pve as their vision of a "harder" game.
Winner in pvp determined by most dps exclusively and whoever starts attacking first with no defense powers being usable.
To top that off only the powers THEY liked will be remotely usable.

I know I'm not far off.  To them thats a 'fair' game, even if such a game is chronicly imbalanced and unfun for everyone.

It, makes me think of this one guy in the starcraft forums of the old days when I forum lurked there, oh man that guy was a nutcase.  His vision of SC1 was "terrans win every single game" for a "balanced game" based on his inept ability to play terrans.

[Angel Phoenix77]

First off, I'm embarrassed that this thread is still alive. I was tired and stressed and after 8 days of not playing I thought I was going to come back to this nerf but it hadn't even made it to the PTS.

You think Int and cdr gear allows that?

It's not just Int and cdr that allows players to do things that make you wet your pants. It's the player.

This song never changes.. I've been listening to it since over 30 years ago when I was beating stand up consoles in video arcades and people were telling me 'oh, once you have secret X figured out, you can play forever on a quarter. Uh huh.. Same person, I tell him to take my console while I go get some food from the vending machine due to I've been playing for hours already to get on the high score board. I hadn't made it halfway to the machine and he'd lost my game.

Players will just find something else to trash the game with. If there ever comes a day you can't do this the game will probably be too rigid and boring to play anyway.

There are two types of players, I have found, when it comes to players doing things above and beyond. Those that say 'wow, I wanna be like that!' and those that get themselves all in a tizzy over it. This is where your true game balance comes in. We have to keep those tears down.

Wait, they will nerf something that you enjoy a lot someday and not give you anything in return. Then you'll get it.

---

Something else..  I came up with cycling AO's and AD's on my own. Yeah, people had probably been doing it for longer than a YEAR now (that's how long I have cycled AO's - I could have cycled AD's but I didn't/don't because it is less effective for this toon) but it was an idea I came up with myself. Recharge and power boosts are just something I always go for so it would be natural I would stumble onto this. Due to I like speed, I spent a lot of time and earned myself 4 Justice masks of Speed - not due to I like to cycle anything. Now, allllll the time I spent on those masks, which come from relatively new content I will add, are going to be worthless with no replacement. The mods I put in them weren't cheap either and I am throwing those away too.. So now it's not only some builds I have to rethink but all the time I wasted on gear, too, and those Rampages are Way newer than this 'problem'.

It's not right to punish people for playing your new content ffs! Especially what passes for high-end/endgame content. hehe I mean, come on..

Ah well, whatever. I'm sorry I called them bastards and it *is* just a game. A game we can play and enjoy or play something else. I'm sure not gonna make a habit of spending my playtime complaining about what I play.

Also, this isn't aimed at you at all, Angel, I'd had this conversation in my head already after reading some similar Zone comments as your post and biting my tongue.

I understand Xev, but when I play I am not an elite player. I bring in what I learned by playing scrappers and brutes. All of my gear are green, since all of my characters are based on regen; I gear up with my super stats in mind, I always choose Recov. as my first super stat, followed by int and Con. to boost my hp.
I get what you are saying because I am there with tsw, I am tired of the mindless grind and when I ask for help not getting it. That is why I am back playing Sto, because if I am going to be alone I would rather have a few pets along for the ride.
I think you are allowed to vent, there is nothing to be sorry for. I think it happens to all mmo players sooner or later. It is cool Xev .

Whats really really bad, and Angel Phoenix77 is on the same page here, is that the changes like the one thats bothering you Xev, the only people who seem to think it brings better balance to the game are those who either pvp and can't stand people using such and such, or those who play pve and can't stand people using such and such.  The tryhards always seem to be dictating the balance but the changes never ever actually balance the game.  Ninety percent of the time, the balance worsens.

Hell someone already asked to nerf arcane clarity to uselessness in another thread because it enables people to maintain constant AD's.  It's supposed to be a super good support buff and they want it to be useless.  It really seems to me these tryhards really don't want anyone playing anything thats outside of their very narrow spectrum of play, which appears to me;

Healer/tank/damage everywhere everyone goes in pve as their vision of a "harder" game.
Winner in pvp determined by most dps exclusively and whoever starts attacking first with no defense powers being usable.
To top that off only the powers THEY liked will be remotely usable.

I know I'm not far off.  To them thats a 'fair' game, even if such a game is chronicly imbalanced and unfun for everyone.

It, makes me think of this one guy in the starcraft forums of the old days when I forum lurked there, oh man that guy was a nutcase.  His vision of SC1 was "terrans win every single game" for a "balanced game" based on his inept ability to play terrans.

Exactly Alex, if co was like tsw in terms of difficulty then nerfs like this is needed, however, this game really needs to bring up the difficulty by 30% across the board. I used to like co, well you know why I quit so no need to rehash.

[Mistress Bloodwrath]

First off, I'm embarrassed that this thread is still alive. I was tired and stressed and after 8 days of not playing I thought I was going to come back to this nerf but it hadn't even made it to the PTS.

You think Int and cdr gear allows that?

It's not just Int and cdr that allows players to do things that make you wet your pants. It's the player.

This song never changes.. I've been listening to it since over 30 years ago when I was beating stand up consoles in video arcades and people were telling me 'oh, once you have secret X figured out, you can play forever on a quarter. Uh huh.. Same person, I tell him to take my console while I go get some food from the vending machine due to I've been playing for hours already to get on the high score board. I hadn't made it halfway to the machine and he'd lost my game.

Players will just find something else to trash the game with. If there ever comes a day you can't do this the game will probably be too rigid and boring to play anyway.

There are two types of players, I have found, when it comes to players doing things above and beyond. Those that say 'wow, I wanna be like that!' and those that get themselves all in a tizzy over it. This is where your true game balance comes in. We have to keep those tears down.

Wait, they will nerf something that you enjoy a lot someday and not give you anything in return. Then you'll get it.

Yeah, it's like how I was able to defeat the Gil Turtle in FF5 three times in a row (can you say random encoun--oh shit!!) without breaking a sweat (what me? brag?) while others just flounder and get creamed by the guy by just encountering him once. I figured out a strategy that worked and had the relatively quick fingers to make it happen and got all of the Gil in the Gil Cave despite running into that fucker three frickin' times. Someone else might still try it and screw up.

Remember, G.I. Joe said knowing was only half the battle.

[Xev]

I need some quiet time, sleep, Sheesh. hehe. Man, I don't think I'm normally this ranty/complainy anyway.

CO is all about the fun.. Cool powers including cool Travel powers. Sexah babes.. Cooooorrrny/bad voice acting. Grondisms.. Alurting.. Rampaging.. Nemconning.. Costume Contestering.. Zone chat. Your favorite channel chat. Maybe hit up a lair. Some Hero Games. Whatever you're into. Not this frustrated ranty stuff.

You don't have to have great gear or a great build or even have a FF to have fun in CO. I thought I was kicking the game's ass when I was playing poorly built (on my part) AT's and wearing not even all Heroic and AE purple secondaries. The people kicking it way harder were my inspiration to do even better. I never felt that they ruined any part of the game for me. The more spectacular someone beats the game I'm playing, generally, the larger their hero status with me. I for sure never ran around and said anyone should be made less powerful. I have always, from the pinball and video arcade until now, been for player beating machine.

I'm not saying that things like chaining invul devices should stay forever - I'm saying I don't care if you do it. You didn't put the damn things in the game and make them work that way! I also know that things like this don't last and say, if you are so inclined, enjoy it while you can. I would also say, don't build for gimmicks, build for what you build for. The single build I rotate AD's on? It was range and mobility inspired. I wanted a change from 50' attacks and lockdown powers. It had Nooooothing to do with cycling AD's and I have Evasive Maneuvers with the threat wipe advantage to prove it - otherwise I would have went rank 3 and went all dodge and tank instead of threat wiping boss mobs in lairs whose hitpoints reset afterwards.. : /.

I think it will be a shame if they remove recharge as a dimension of the game due to it's one of my favorite things to build for even when I'm not cycling anything people have said they have a problem with me cycling. But, I can't imagine that change being permanent even if it does happen. It seems highly unlikely that the entire gear system won't change eventually due to it's being gradually phased out. Recharge with Int I'm less invested in due to I only have 1 Int build and it's new but any loss of recharge would be something I won't root for especially when there's nothing to make up for the loss. If recharge is removed from Int then make Int stronger in another way - like better cost reduction or my nose glows purple when I sit or *something*. People just don't like it when something valuable to them is taken away and nothing's given back in return.

I think they might be in for a big mess by removing recharge because I don't think it is as simple as the dodge nerf was. Not everyone used dodge but almost everyone uses *some* recharge. We'll just have to wait and see what happens and hopefully, like after all the other bone crushing nerfs with nothing given back in return, CO is still fun afterwards. And that they come up with new gear before tooooo long. Even if this nerf doesn't go in, it's getting time to stop hacking the old gear and come out with some new.